I am looking to see if the majority would agree to have changes initiated in the HS game. (not that I can do anything about it)
My thoughts-
1- both genders should play 90 minutes
2- A tie is a tie during regular season
3- THE TIME SHOULD BE KEPT ON THE FIELD (I cannot make bigger letters than that)
4- 3 referees for all games
5- Accountability for referees...i.e report cards from the coaches. A means to have fedback from your customers (don't forget who is paying the bill). The report is then reviewed and the referees are assigned accordingly.
6- No conflict of interest (real or perceived) if you are a referee or associated with refereeing then you should not be on staff at any school.
7- fitness requirement (probably already done but not sure) a referee should be fit for the level of the game
Why ?... I believe the influx of club players in HS has been increasing exponentially, for example Irmo, NW, SV, Lex etc have nothing but club players on their squad (both genders) this usually translates into a faster\physical game.
Under accountability - there should be recourse to complain about under performing individuals. Currently I do not know of one (see additional stuff under Club/ODp)
I agree with all points except 2. Unless a STATEWIDE system is put into place that recognizes ties (ie. a point system), it will be worthless. The system needs to be consistant across all regions.
I agree the girls game should not be shorter due to sex and the report card thing is good too many ineligible players still play due to the lack of coaches caring about that anymore. Time kept off the field is ridiculous and then stopping the clock with 2 left then its ref time is dumb. I agree with all those suggestions. MACCA
I also agree there need to be some changes but there are only so many referee's that I've heard it's difficult to get three for each game. And then if theres requirements for things such as fitness, that limits the number even more. Your point number six wouldn't happen to be hinting at any assistant coach in the "Irmo" area of the state would it futbol?
I would also like to praise the officiating crew at last nights state championship game. I thought they let the players play while also keeping the game under control the entire time. Many times officials are crucifide on these message boards but I would also like to hand out a little praise when it is due. Well done to those officiating last night.
Oh i dont agree with the tie thing u gotta resolve due to state points and region points
ineligible players dont and cant play—this isnt a coach decision—you misunderstood the point anyway—read carefully—write slowly
eligibility comes from the semester BEFORE the season—based on transcripts and handled by ADs—
You have to stay eligible throughout the whole time your playing.....i.e. last year a fellow class mate of mine was failing 2 classes (during the season) but got to play but then another person i know was suspended for academic reasons (grades during the season) so explain that to me smart guy
.......5- Accountability for referees...i.e report cards from the coaches so no i didnt misunderstand that
that may be a rule of the school but not of HSL—the one player could play—he is eligible during the season—the other may have been dropped due to a school or coach rule—
the comment about report cards is the coaches doing them for the REFS—
They both went to the same school under the same coach and same AD............
but seperate years and YOU HAVE TO STAY ELIGIBLE ALL YEAR!
you can't spell and NO you don't (separate)—once you are eligible for a season—you are eligible—failing DURING a season would make you ineligible for the NEXT season—HSL—
to play spring, you have to meet reqs in fall—to play fall you have to meet reqs in spring (although you can make up problems in SS)—again—the school can do whatever they want above the HSL—
and re-read #5—it isn't about students or eligibility—
"5- Accountability for referees...i.e report cards from the coaches. A means to have fedback from your customers (don't forget who is paying the bill). The report is then reviewed and the referees are assigned accordingly."
ok i read the freaking rule and who are you the HSL President haha
just trying to help this discussion board stay accurate—
futbol(soccer) has made excellent suggestions—i like for us all to be careful and accurate—thanks for reading. . .
futbol,
I agree with all but 5. Coaches assessing their own games will involve too much bias. And I doubt all games can feasibly be assessed. Maybe a trial run next year of assessing certain level games; possibly some top ten games in 4A & 3A. Have 2 assessors - a HS coach with no affiliation or bias towards the teams playing and a ref with at least 1 year experience. Possibly would also help coaches appreciate what refs can see and what they look for during a game. Also help the ref gaine further knowledge of what to look for when he/she is not actively doing the game.
Just a suggestion..........
All caps for emphasis notwithstanding, G&B is right on two points...
1. Student eligibility by High School League rules is established at the beginning of the semester, based on the previous semester's grades; grades incurred during the season have no effect on High School League eligibility requirements for that season, only the next. Regions, schools, and coaches can impose stricter requirements if they wish, but there is no statewide HSL rule that says a student must maintain a passing average during a sports season.
2. This has absolutely nothing to do with the question/suggestions that started this thread.
Anybody ever think of coaches being black-balled? If coaches start turning in reviews of all the refs and a coach says something rude or inaccurate, is consistently complaining, says something against a popular ref, etc. then that coach may get stuck with the least experienced refs. Another scenario, like a pitcher from one team hitting a player from another in retaliation, a ref may come to a game with a chip on his shoulder for himself or colleagues and be a little more eager to give reds or penalty kicks then may be good for the game. There is a huge benefit to refs being immune from personal reviews and comments to keep them as unbiased as possible on the field.
Kickman.. I understand your point... I just would like to see if there was a way to have some accountability.
For example the NFL officials get challenge on a call and have a slomo review.
I am asking if there could be something done... I have been in games were a referee talks to the players and specofocally tells them he is not calling this or that because we do not need to score anymore.
The referees job is to allow a match to be played within the laws of the game, not to be the focal center. I understand that the NW vs SV game had a good crew (I was not there....). The lex vs Wando was the focal center and took away from the game.
I once was told that if you get 90% of the calls right you did a great job... I believe that. But in HS with 2 refs and the one blowing for a foul from 60 yds away when the infraction occurred 10 ft from the other guy creates problems.
Refs are in a precariously impossible position. For the team the call was against, it was a bad call. For the team the call was for, it was a good call. My husband refs and WILL NOT make a call unless he has a clear view of the play. Some coaches do not like the fact that he will not "assume" what the players are saying is true. If he has a bad angle or has several players between himself and the play, he feels he can not make a valid call.
There are some refs that will make calls without seeing the entire play. I do not agree that this is good for the game or the players. Even worse are those that have flagaphobia and won't call anything. But one thing I do know- a lot of refs are pompass and WILL hold negative comments against players and coaches. This is true in all regions and levels of play-club and school. 3man games would be heaven. I do not know a ref that wouldn't LOVE to have 3 officials at a game.
I personally feel there should be a group of reviewers who go to games and rate the refs. Perhaps some of the club board members or ADs/phys ed teachers. Unannounced and anonymous critique given to the assignors.
futbol, what lex vs wando game are you talking about and how was the ref the "focal center"
probably the girls state championship game, go read the girls thread if you have yet to hear.
I definately think there should be better restrictions and standards for referees. and as for fitness standards there nmight be some but they must be really easy to pass cause i have seen some very out of shape not to mention OLD referees alos like the idea of 3 for every game, it can get out of control with only two also alot harder to call offsides properly with only two officials. these seem like good suggestions its a shame they will probablly never change though
Futbol,
You are spot on. In several variations these same recommendations have been made over the last several years. Just last year there was an official SCHSSCA proposal to allow varsity matches to end in ties.
Regarding officials, they need to be paid better, period. I would add that favorable reports should be tied to merit bonuses. Center refs earn their stripes. The SCHSL referee certification program is a sham. The SCHSL should adopt AYSO or USSF certification procedures.
Unfortunately, I percieve that the SCHSL is nothing more than a "good ol' boy" association of American football current or former coaches tolerating other sports.
Coach’s report cards would be very telling. It's a given that assessors can't be at every game, but a series of low scores from numerous coaches for any ref would help them decide where to focus their efforts even allowing for bias fron the losing side. Maybe a bonus for total review points scored?
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I definately think there should be better restrictions and standards for referees. and as for fitness standards there nmight be some but they must be really easy to pass cause i have seen some very out of shape not to mention OLD referees alos like the idea of 3 for every game, it can get out of control with only two also alot harder to call offsides properly with only two officials. these seem like good suggestions its a shame they will probablly never change though
You must be talking about that particularly old fat guy(don't know his name offhand) that refs alot here in the Low Country. I wonder what his problem is anyway, he acts like he hates everyone. Better pay might help that though. There should definitely be some regulations for fitness also. If they can't keep up with the players, then they can't see the plays and should not be allowed on the field. Period!
Interesting! I was asked by a local sports radio show this week to provide some thoughts about officiating in prep soccer in comparison to other high school athletics. The station is AM-1400 "The Team" and the show is called "Talking Sports", which is hosted by Teddy Heffner. Each Thursday, Airport HS Athletics Director and Head Football Coach Kirk Burnett joins him from 8-9 a.m. Here they are:
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Are there problems with officiating in high school soccer?
The problem with high school soccer is that there are not enough officials assigned for each game. There is no way that in 2007 two men/women can keep pace with 22 players. Maybe in 1977 or 1987 that was the case, but not now. A minimum of three (Referee, two Linesmen) is needed. A good number of the collegiate referees in this state also officiate prep matches, but until the numbers increase it will be difficult for referee assignors to raise the number -- will also have to be budgeted into the financials for ADs and for them to be aware of this needed increase.
Another point that needs to be adopted is that officials should be graded by the coaches after each match. This would be more work for the SCHSL, so that's why it probably will never happen.
The officiating in the State Finals this past weekend at Stone Stadium was fine, except for the fiasco in the Wando/Lexington match, but again, there were five officials on hand -- Referee, two Asst. Referees (Linesmen), Substitution Referee, and a Clock Operator. The Boys 4A game (Northwestern/Spring Valley) was very well officiated -- the referee let the "boys play" and it was great to watch!
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How in the world did the S.C. High School League rescind the red card on Spring Valley's goalkeeper?
The SCHSL overrode the referee's decision of the red card, because on the play that occurred, the Wando player received a yellow card and Davis Jenkins of Spring Valley received a straight red card. In truth, it should have been a caution for each player. The official appeared to be little rash in his decision and quite honestly a little above his head for a game of that magnitude.
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Why are there so many ejections in high school soccer?
On the comment of ejections -- until football reports how many 15 yard penalties for unsportsmanlike conduct are called and basketball reports how many players fouled out of a game, then I take the red card ejections with a grain of salt. That's what should be measured.
P.S. -- If all red cards were appealed by the SCHSL after the fact, then I'm sure we would see more instances like Davis Jenkins incurred last week!
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What in the world went on at the Girls 4A match?
If anyone ever wants to see drama, just come out and watch the Class 4A Girls soccer championship -- it seems like every year there is something controversial!
Last year, Irmo scored immediately after the horn sounded and many in the stands did not hear it due to the "boisterous crowd noise". It was a heckuva finish, but the ball went in after the whistle/horn sounded.
A couple of years prior to that you'll remember the incident when West Ashley pulled up some JV players and dressed them in uniform on the sidelines, but they didn't play. The disputed title had to go to court and everything!
Regarding the incident the other night. I don't believe anything was done on purpose by Wando, but they did play with an advantage for what appears to be around 1 minute, 15 seconds. However, others would argue that the span lasted longer. The only person to blame in this situation is the fourth official (regular season matches only have two unless three are requested and can be provided). For the state title match, there are five -- three on the field, referee and two assistant referees (linesmen), along with the substitution official and the time keeper in the press box.
Kyle,
Great comments...what does it take to get the SCHSL to listen. The players in 2007 are more sophisticated, technically and tactically, and the speed of play is greater. Three officials are also essential to protect the players from injury as well.
I probably should not prolong this discussion, but I would like to weigh in with one point concerning the proposed changes related to referees.
Before doing so, I would like to say that I completely agree with virtually all of the points made in this thread. There is a great need for more refs (the two-man system is very difficult, especially at the varsity level), better training for refs and more stringent qualification of refs.
That said, not all coaches are qualified to review or assess refs. I do not want to name coaches or schools, but I ref in a district that has a number of coaches that have no background in soccer. For the most part, they are dedicated and good individuals, but they have no grasp of the concept of "advantage" or "handball" (as it has become popularly refered to).
My contribution to this discussion would be to add that the review by coaches be limited to coaches that achieve a certain level of experience or expertise.
In order to make an evaluation system for officials work in you area would a "minimum qualification" for coaches satisfy your concerns? (I am not including the rules clinic held by the SCHSL for coaches.)
I think as a community the coaches, with the exception of a few, would accept this. The reality is that many coaches and officials are highly qualified.
Unfortunately, I believe that the SCHSL has created an adversarial relationship between coaches/players and officials. As Kyle stated earlier, " This would be more work for the SCHSL". Coaches and officials working together may have a greater chance of succuess in changing the attitudes and perceptions at the SCHSL.
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I probably should not prolong this discussion, but I would like to weigh in with one point concerning the proposed changes related to referees.
Before doing so, I would like to say that I completely agree with virtually all of the points made in this thread. There is a great need for more refs (the two-man system is very difficult, especially at the varsity level), better training for refs and more stringent qualification of refs.
That said, not all coaches are qualified to review or assess refs. I do not want to name coaches or schools, but I ref in a district that has a number of coaches that have no background in soccer. For the most part, they are dedicated and good individuals, but they have no grasp of the concept of "advantage" or "handball" (as it has become popularly refered to).
My contribution to this discussion would be to add that the review by coaches be limited to coaches that achieve a certain level of experience or expertise.
Though I agree with your comments, I believe that in high school the "Head Coach" is the only title or "certification" that you need to judge the officiating crews. The same can be said for high school soccer officials. I know there are certain levels recognizing the achievements of referees in soccer, but to referee a prep soccer match you simply have to pass the SCHSL rules test -- thus waiving any "certification" or "license" to officiate high school soccer.
Football has a grading system and there isn't a football coach in the state that has a "license" or a level of "certification" indicating that he can coach high school. I encourage the process of licensing and certification, but let's face it -- they are in place not only to raise the awareness of the soccer coaching community, but also as an avenue of income or fees for certain persons and organizations.
My feelings on "coaching credentials" are similar to what Chico posted in another thread:
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Let's take an example from CUFC. I think Heather Frederick is a good coach. I don't know her license (I'm sure she has a very good one) -- however, I've spent the time to understand what she's done in the past and even had my kid train with her a few years ago. If she turned up tomorrow and had no license at all, it wouldn't change my opinion of her.
Kyle,
You (and Chico) make a strong point. We don't see questions about "licensing" or "level of certification" for football, basketball, or baseball coaches, for example--even though there are millions of dollars worth of revenue and potential scholarships and future careers at stake for athletes in these sports each year. Why is it that soccer seems to be the only sport where many people are more concerned with coaching "credentials" than with coaching ability?
I think the points you made are appropriate. My point to lfc, without offending or providing fodder for the certification/ability arguement, is what credentials does a coach require to assess an officiating crew. Notice, I never mentioned certification by a licensing organization.
I am assumeing lfc is referring the the high school football coach or PE teacher forced to take the position of soccer coach due to a lack of "qualified" soccer coach.
I would hope that there is a soccer officals association that would welcome the evaluation system by coaches. As I stated earlier, the SCHSL referee certification program is a sham. If they cannot produce the quality required it is time to look to another organization.
What license/certification does Steve Spurrier or Tommy Bowden hold?
Concerning certifications. For the most part it was started to help the sport and educate its own. Not as a means to be exclusive but inclusive. The sport is such a great one that the players out paced the coaches.
Sometimes it is used to assist in a coaches resume, a standard that he can be measured by a perspective employer.
Some are overly concerned with the paper because it is something they can see. Someones abilities are not easily seen or understood.
I guess its like a drivers license. I have one and so did the butt head who cut me off the other day.
Great comments Coach Tim. I especially like the inclusion reference. Hopefully, the SCHSSCA can gain a united position on the needed changes in officating.
Oop, a grammatical error that usually invites too many responses..."officiating"
Its cool I make a ton of grammer goofs, we are all in this great game together aye?
True standards have to be met, even if just to keep it all respectable. Then standards have to be raised.
We have been on a great ride of growth and these are just some of the pains. Everyone in the soccer family has to keep up with the players.
I hope, as our sport continues to progress, that we will continue to see an emphasis on quality of both coaching and officiating. For a lot of schools, soccer is just not a high priority, and yes, there are those football coaches and PE teachers who are asked to take positions in coaching because there's nobody else to do it, and providing a soccer program is seen as more of an obligation than a point of pride. As the sport grows in popularity and earns its respect, I have seen some shifts in even "non-soccer" schools toward hiring coaches who have demonstrated ability, whether on paper or on the field. I hope to see all elements of the sport, including players, coaches, and officials, showing a constant progress to match the growing popularity of the sport. Our kids who go out and give their best deserve to get the best.
Kyle and the rest -
With all due respect, ya'll have taken my comments in a manner that was not intended or stated. Please take the time to re-read my previous post and note that I endorsed all of the suggestions in previous posts (including that of reviewing referees by coaches). I am in no way suggesting that coches be "certified" or "licensed". I simply suggested that any coach asked to review the performance of a referee first get a little experience under his or her belt.
Personally, I place little stock in most licenses or certifications and tend to look at a person's experience as the best indication of his or her ability.
Regardless, I have unwittingly touched on a subject that is sensitive to some coaches and apologize to anyone that took offense. However, I am going to stick to my suggestion that coaches asked to review the performance of a referee have some level of experience or expertise (i.e., if you were a player or referee in the past, then you may be qualifed to assess in your first year of coaching).