Why do other youth sports organizations like basketball, football, baseball, softball have a higher percentage of minority youths playing those sports compared to youth club soccer. Do you think youth soccer clubs dicriminate against minorities?
Data please!
Do you think youth soccer clubs discriminate against minorities? Not on any club I've ever dealt with.
I guess hockey discriminates too!
He was asking...I don't think he was accusing
Thank you nsff. It was just a question. My observations on any given day at a club soccer complex is that minorities are absent at these venues. When you go to watch other sports there are many minorities.
gb it looks like someone in Greenville, SC is beginning to address the issue. Located downtown between the new Salvation Army Kroc Center and the new AJ Whittenberg elementary school is a brand new, full size, lined, state of the art, artificial surface soccer field, complete with Adidas logos.
I wonder if King Andrew has already taken control of it?
Listed below is the racial breakdown of the Congaree Rapid Soccer Association for the 2010 fall season:
Boys - 126
78.6%, White
11.1%, Hispanic
9.5%, Black
0.8%, Asian
Girls - 106
95.3%, White
4.7%, Black
0%, Asian
0%, Hispanic
Good topic and very interesting! Got me thinking to break down our Brookland-Cayce HS boys roster from last year. Here's the results:
Varsity (16) - 7 minority, 43.8%
White - 9
Black - 2
Hispanic - 5
Junior Varsity (18) - 5 minority, 27.8%
White - 13
Black - 2
Hispanic - 3
B-Team (18) - 2 minority, 11.1%
White - 16
Black - 1
Hispanic - 1
52 players / 14 minorities = 26.9%
Looking at our numbers, the largest obstacle for our B-Team aged (7th/8th graders) minorities is transportation to our training facility from their respective middle schools.
12 of the 34 Varsity/JV players are minorities (41.2%).
Price, travel and exposure. It's really that simple. My son has played football, basketball, soccer and baseball. We have spent more on soccer than any of the others. There are a number of parents not willing to travel and our kids are not exposed to pro soccer in the way they are to other pro sports. As far as the hispanic population they don't always know whats available out there, they really still relay on news via paper, radio and tv.
its def. not discrimination in the usual sense as i'm sure most club coaches would like to work with the best raw talent.
however the current model is just not inclusive & its just a matter of figuring out how to do it.
maybe after school intramurals at the elementary school level & actual middle school teams might be the first baby steps, but then no one gets paid...oop$
yth soccer in the states is about at the 1940's basketball level...two handed set shots & the underhand freethrow.
sandman, right behind you...
Do you think youth soccer clubs dicriminate against minorities?
I do not think discrimination (by clubs or their administrators/coaches) is to blame for the poor showing of minorities in club soccer. At least not in the most egregious meaning of the word to apply prejudice based on skin color or racial characteristic. Actually I would venture to suggest quite the opposite. Sensitive to this, I think most administrators and coaches try very hard to be inclusive and provide every opportunity when a suitable candidate (player) registers with their club. Of course, I think we could all make life a little better by dropping fees (attractive to everyone and especially marginalized communities and populations). Still dropping fees will only move the needle by a factor and not force the full swing.
I would look a little deeper to understand the challenge we have in increasing participation for everyone and particularly for minorities who struggle with social/language differences. In my (somewhat limited experience) I have found that 'Club' players generally start at the rec department and move due to natural promise, eager parents (with soccer background/insight), or recruited by club reps (pariahs trawling all-star sidelines and car parks). Whatever the motive to get to the next level around 2nd/3rd grade this is where those playing challenge, etc. mostly started and is where I believe we should be doing more to increase diversity in the sport and opportunity for all.
Rec departments have a duty to their tax paying stakeholders and is why most municipal programs (if not all) are centered in densely populated areas with lots of taxpayers. Grand facilities are built in 'nice areas' and soccer coaches live on the block. Moms don't want to drive more than 5 minutes and everyone is so busy it just makes sense (logistically and ROI) to keep these rec programs of large scale centralized that generally favor the majorioty (ironically antithesis of minority). I had a very interesting conversation with State school inspector a few weeks ago and he informed me most parents putting their kids in different school (outside of zoned) due to convenience (work/car pool, etc.) and that makes sense and probably will play against any of us trying to push opportunity beyond geographic status quo, but it is worth the effort.
Our club has tried hard to promote soccer to new audiences (especially at the youngest age groups) but we have had mixed success. Early numbers were promising but by our third season (fall '10), our minority numbers had dropped. Certainly fees play a part but what I have found the most challenging (and to be frank frustrating) obstacle is either parent ability or willingness to commit to practices and/or games (sometimes leaving coaches high and dry). Still we'll step it up in the spring and I have already reached out to community leaders, boys & girls club, and schools to push the word out that a quality soccer program is available at low cost in their backyard. I've seen success at clubs like Walterboro who field diverse, happy teams and know we can all do better if we just keep at it.
Thanks for reading, and if your club isn't working hard to increase soccer awareness and skills long before try outs, competitive leagues, and our crazy world of 'club soccer', please consider it.
CA,it's great to see your club trying to bring in minorities, but here in the upstate the big youth soccer club is located in one of the wealthiest areas of the upstate, and i could be wrong, but i've never seen the big club offer any free soccer programs in low income areas to try and bring in potential great athletes from these areas. these low income areas are producing some of the best baseball, basketball and football players in the state, but no soccer players are coming from these areas. Could it be that volunteers in these other sports are offering their time and training for free, and the big soccer club will only do it if their getting paid. That's what it looks like.
Dawgs,
Why go through the charade? Just go ahead and say what you want to say. The title should have read "CESA charges too much money." You're a broken record.
dawgs, unless you really are trying to say something else (as loc is suggesting) look at the coaches for (youth) baseball, basketball and football. Typically, they are "just" parents.
Think about it; if you were born, let's say, prior to 1980 (just throwing a date out there) there is a very good chance that you played two or three of those sports growing up (either organized or pick-up); and after you stopped playing one or more of them, you kept watching it on tv. So, most of the parents of youth baseball, basketball and football players have been around those sports, in some way, most of their lives.
Now look at your typical soccer parent. The vast majority of these parents only started learning about soccer after their child(ren) started playing. Learning the game, without having played it for some amount of time, has its disadvantages. Not saying those parents can't learn the game, because they can, and do; but there a things about it that are much easier to understand if you've actually been out there on the pitch, or have been involved in it for many years.
Here's a question for you: do those sports have the same types of coaching licensure that soccer does? (or any at all?) None of the parents who coached my children in baseball, basketball or softball had any kind of license. I knew several people who coached football, and they definitely did not.
And in addition to that, there are plenty of travel teams in baseball and basketball where coaches are paid.
Quote:
CA,it's great to see your club trying to bring in minorities, but here in the upstate the big youth soccer club is located in one of the wealthiest areas of the upstate, and i could be wrong, but i've never seen the big club offer any free soccer programs in low income areas to try and bring in potential great athletes from these areas. these low income areas are producing some of the best baseball, basketball and football players in the state, but no soccer players are coming from these areas. Could it be that volunteers in these other sports are offering their time and training for free, and the big soccer club will only do it if their getting paid. That's what it looks like.
I like to call soccer a country club sport. It attracts people with money. If you can pay, you can play. If you have the talent in the sports mentioned above then someone is willing to help you financially. The model for travel is also alot different. You don't see entire families traveling to AAU events.
We have several minorties on our team who are getting help from the club but still need help with travel expenses. As a team we all work together to make sure these kids have the opportunity(ie, paying for meals, hotels, providing transportation). And some wealthy parents don't want to help the minorities because that might mean that a more talented miority would take little Bobby's spot on the top team that Bobby has had all these years.
Here's a question for you: do those sports have the same types of coaching licensure that soccer does? (or any at all?) None of the parents who coached my children in baseball, basketball or softball had any kind of license. I knew several people who coached football, and they definitely did not.
Excellent question! Licensing primarily serves to make money for USSF or NSCAA. I read an article in the last NSCAA Journal about a high school coach that has won more than 800 games and multiple state titles, but has no license. Is he a worse coach because of it? Or is a "dad" that attends two weekends to obtain a "D" license a better coach because he's been "trained?"
Hatch,
While I believe that the "concept' of licensure is a good thing, its application does not guarantee anything. I've known absolutely brilliant coaches (in many sports) who don't hold a license or certification, and I've seen my share of licensed clowns.
To me, a far more relevant metric would be for a competent, trusted evaluator to "observe" (with no prior notice) a coach during a training session and game, then offer suggestions for improvement.
Which SHOULD happen in-house at all clubs, by the way. But does it?
There is a team called CESA Alfa (u15 boys). I don’t know the whole story but I spoke with a parent about the team. They are a CESA travel team but they are not typical. The team has lower fees because the have volunteers that coach. (This team is very well coached.) Most of the team is hispanic and I was told that any child who wants to play soccer may join the team. The ages of the kids vary greatly (some are much younger than 14) but they are a talented bunch. They won 10 league games this fall and they won tournament where I saw them play. I don’t know if CESA assists in any way other than allowing the team to save some club fees but CESA is making it more affordable for this dollar conscious team.
It did happen at the Carolina Girls club years ago..Andy Grist was the DOC and he would travel every weekend following his teams to evaluate not just the team but the coaches..He had a syllabus for the coaches to follow so that the training was consistant..He was ahead of his time..He was doing this ten years ago..
I know the team well. They beat my U14 team in the 2009 Classic II final. As you said the team is made up of all Hispanic players. Every player is very technical and play with a great deal of passion. The coach was also Hispanic not wearing your typical CESA/Coaching attire. Myself being Mexican, I enjoyed the competition vs. this team.
Excellent.
My thought is simple. Coaching is no different than any other line of work. We ALL can get better at what we do. If evaluation can be fostered in an atmosphere of improvement -- not criticism -- it can be a valuable tool. Establish a valid metric, then evaluate, suggest and encourage improvement, and follow up.
By the way, a lot here has been offered about "other sports." I coached AAU traveling basketball teams for years. I found sponsors, offered fundraising opportunities, etc. I NEVER turned a kid away for $$$. Shame on clubs that do!
P.S.: Won (and lost) a lot of games, without the benefit of licensure.
Relax LocDog. The post is where are all the minorities. Which is 100% true. Says nothing about money.
Hate to get off "Where are the minorities in soccer" but I wonder if Nick Saban, Steve Spurrier, Mike Krzyzewski
Bobby Cox have licenses to coach their sports. Coaching licenses to coach soccer, you have got to be kidding me. Is the tests for these coaching licenses a written test or a physical test? Do they charge these coaches a fee for these licenses?
I think the football coaches you name have a license to do just about anything they want! ;-}
What those coaches all have in common is they are able to coach youths and adults based on their experiences, success on and off the court or field. not by taking a written test.
Quote:
CA,it's great to see your club trying to bring in minorities, but here in the upstate the big youth soccer club is located in one of the wealthiest areas of the upstate, and i could be wrong, but i've never seen the big club offer any free soccer programs in low income areas to try and bring in potential great athletes from these areas. these low income areas are producing some of the best baseball, basketball and football players in the state, but no soccer players are coming from these areas. Could it be that volunteers in these other sports are offering their time and training for free, and the big soccer club will only do it if their getting paid. That's what it looks like.
You "could be wrong" and in fact you ARE wrong. (not the first time) Instead of saying "the big soccer club", I'll say CESA actually does and has done volunteer and outreach programs in different culturally and economically diverse areas of the upstate. In the years that I have been involved in the club, I have seen several programs initiated in efforts to include kids from all walks of life. They also offer scholarships (which I believe most big clubs do) to not just the best premier level players but to players of any level.
Quote:
Hate to get off "Where are the minorities in soccer" but I wonder if Nick Saban, Steve Spurrier, Mike Krzyzewski
Bobby Cox have licenses to coach their sports. Coaching licenses to coach soccer, you have got to be kidding me. Is the tests for these coaching licenses a written test or a physical test? Do they charge these coaches a fee for these licenses?
The licensing process involves work in the classroom, coaching sessions while being evaluated by members of the U.S. national staff, and playing. The C license and above are week long residential courses. To suggest that it's simply a written test is ridiculous. Typically, in the B and the A course you have a better chance of failing the course than passing. That is after the roughly $1,000 fee and the 5-6 days of work. Trust me, having a license doesn't automatically make you a good coach but at the higher level they are not just handed out either.
Ok, just for the heck of it, because I'm in a generous mood (even after goalstop called me creepy) I'll ask... harry, you say you've "seen several programs initiated..." What happened to them? Were they initiated, then terminated, or did they continue to flourish and turn into yearly (or weekly, monthly, bi-annually, etc) events?
This is your opportunity to showcase these efforts without me claiming you're just grandstanding (not that I would ever do that). I have opened the door...now, shine!
Quote:
Ok, just for the heck of it, because I'm in a generous mood (even after goalstop called me creepy) I'll ask... harry, you say you've "seen several programs initiated..." What happened to them? Were they initiated, then terminated, or did they continue to flourish and turn into yearly (or weekly, monthly, bi-annually, etc) events?
This is your opportunity to showcase these efforts without me claiming you're just grandstanding (not that I would ever do that). I have opened the door...now, shine!
I don't know all the details of these programs/partnerships and I'm sure there are programs that I don't know of, but here goes.
There was a group of Hispanic kids that one of the directors coached recently in two age groups. I believe they were called the outreach program. I don't know what their fee structure was, or where they are now, but the effort was there. There has been a long-standing relationship with Salvation Army and there are teams in the recreation and academy in house leagues. I believe most of the staff has gone in years past to community centers on MLK Day (and several other times of the year) and hosted free clinics. I think someone else mentioned CESA ALFA. I don't know the details of those teams, other than they are largely, if not wholly, Hispanic and that they exist.
As I said, I'm sure there are programs that I am missing and I don't know the details of the above named programs; but to suggest that there is no effort made to make it easier or possible for communities outside of the mainstream to participate in CESA is simpley misinformed.
Knowing the two in charge of CESA, I'll bet if you had a good idea as to how to get more kids involved they would certainly welcome your phone call. If you were uncomfortable with calling, you could PM me and I could call one of them for you.
Harry, sorry nice try.but your wrong. CESA has an extremely low minority customer base in their challenge and premier programs. And I've witnessed it for the last 8 years. Bottom line is if you can't afford their fees, they don't want you. And their not out looking for the youth athlete in these low income areas. All that you need to do is drive out to MESA on any Saturday and you can probably count on one hand how many minorities are competing. Also you say when you were involved in CESA and you don't even know the names of the programs. Cmon!
The whole question revolves around the fact that clubs exist becasue people with money are willing to pay to see thier kids win, I mean grow as players.
Without the paying base there is no club, and if clubs can field very good teams with all paying players then why would they give away for free what they can get paid for. Sure they run lower cost rec programs and broaden the base that way, but as you move up the scale in level of play you move up in income potential.
For example I know one club where the season dues for premier are about $500 higher then the next lower level. They practice on average once a week more than the next lower level. Are the cost for the club for that team to play at the higher level that much higher or are parents just paying for "better" coaching because they play at a "higher" level?
CESA is no different than most other clubs they exist to make money by providing a product. Soccer parents exist without clubs, Clubs do not exist without soccer parents!
I would provide this observation- Discoveries won a national championship with about as many minorities on one team as I remember seeing play at the upper level here in SC. Anyone think they went looking for all those players or was it a matter of they were what the local club had to work with?
Let me see if I'm getting the cultural part of this conversation straight. We're trying to figure out why the clubs in this country don't do more to attract greater numbers of Hispanic players so that we as Americans can share our immense knowledge of and passion for the game with them?
SE
Excellent observation!!
Quote:
Harry, sorry nice try.but your wrong. CESA has an extremely low minority customer base in their challenge and premier programs. And I've witnessed it for the last 8 years. Bottom line is if you can't afford their fees, they don't want you. And their not out looking for the youth athlete in these low income areas. All that you need to do is drive out to MESA on any Saturday and you can probably count on one hand how many minorities are competing. Also you say when you were involved in CESA and you don't even know the names of the programs. Cmon!
I don't understand where I'm wrong. I said that the programs existed and that there is an effort to get more kids from diverse backgrounds involved in CESA. You're saying that's not true? I guess you're saying that CESA ALFA doesn't exist? I guess you're saying nobody went to the Phylis Wheatly Center? You're saying there's no scholarship money?
Are you also saying that when you were involved in CESA, when your daughter or her older brother played, you knew the details of every program in the club? You must have attended some meetings that I didn't.
Quote:
Let me see if I'm getting the cultural part of this conversation straight. We're trying to figure out why the clubs in this country don't do more to attract greater numbers of Hispanic players so that we as Americans can share our immense knowledge of and passion for the game with them?
I thought the point of this was that some people are saying that if you can't pay, you're not welcomed to play. Others were saying that you were. We were all just assuming that it's only minorities that can't pay.
Yeah, delta, I think you've missed something along the way. I don't believe the purpose of "outreach" programs is to attract more Hispanic (or black, or poor, or different combinations of all three) players. I believe it (usually) is, in part, to simply "reach" out to those who would not otherwise be involved in soccer, whether they be low-income, Hispanic, or whatever. You do seem to be making a lot of assumptions. I don't even think the outreach is specifically for low-income; there are plenty of people of all income levels who know next to nothing about soccer who could benefit from getting involved in the sport.
Quote:
I would provide this observation- Discoveries won a national championship with about as many minorities on one team as I remember seeing play at the upper level here in SC. Anyone think they went looking for all those players or was it a matter of they were what the local club had to work with?
Taking nothing away from the DSC National Championship team, but I seem to remember that one player was from Charleston and another from Tennessee. This hardly qualifies as working with what they had.
My kid and I watched the U17MNT friendlies in Phoenix and that roster is full of minorities. What does that say about developing the minority player? If given the opportunity they will excel?
I suspect it is not just the club cost but long term earning potential of soccer in the US that keeps minorities, minorities in youth club soccer. You don't hear of many or any soccer players being offered a several million dollar contract to go pro out of high school or high dollar advertising contracts. You do hear that in football, baseball, basketball. Even if a club offered free training and transportation, they can't cover the loss of earning potential a teenager can make in getting a job. So unfortunately, in the teen years it becomes a sport predominantly for the kids who love the game and have the luxury of parents who can afford to totally financially support the child. There is little hope of the child making it big with a multi million contract or a long term wealthy career. At least in the US, it appears the soccer profession is one of passion and for those that can afford to follow that passion - not too different from a teacher.
In a word, yes.
Please reference the most recent NCAA Men's Division I basketball and football numbers. African Americans receive over 50% of athletic grants-in-aid in these sports; over 60% in basketball, if I'm not mistaken.
It may be a coincidence, but two prominent pay-to-play sports -- soccer and baseball -- are still significantly majority Caucasian. In fact, in major league baseball, there are significantly more Latin American players than African Americans.
But back to soccer: The reality is, REGARDLESS OF RACE OR ETHNICITY, soccer historically attracts fewer high caliber athletes than basketball and football. Not that soccer players are unathletic. There just isn't the demand for dominant size, strength and quickness that other sports require. Our best athletees tend to gravitate to other sports.
Can you imagine, for example, if the likes of A.J. Green, Sidney Rice, Alshon Jeffery, Marcus Lattimore, Devan Downey, etc., had chosen soccer at a young age, and had been properly trained and developed in the sport?
You really think Benny Feilhaber could compete?
Can you imagine, for example, if the likes of A.J. Green, Sidney Rice, Alshon Jeffery, Marcus Lattimore, Devan Downey, etc., had chosen soccer at a young age, and had been properly trained and developed in the sport?
You really think Benny Feilhaber could compete? Now that's funny!!!
I also agree it is funny...but the reality has everything to do with the future.
You pick your athletic heroes because you have seen them (on tv or in real life). And you see the money, would Mr Lattimore like a 50 million dollar a year contract to play american football or would he rather take a 60,000 dollar a year contract to play soccer?
No brainer, kids are not stupid.
Thanks, helps to make my point in part. Were either of those kids minorities? Were they under privilidged players (what I think we should be using instead of the term minorities) who were on club scholarships? Or were they good players who were willing to pay to play on a potential Championship team?
I would be willing to guess that there was likely a underprivilidged player living within 25-50 miles of DSC's home field who could have played (developed) nearly as well as these two, (please do not take this as any knock on those players as I am in hypotehtical land here) but why would the club take an non-paying equal player that was local when they could get a paying player thus allowing them to fund a better program and win a championship.
I think in the big picture of things coaches/clubs will put the best team possible on the pitch, but when given a choice between a paying player who is a 8 or 9 and a non paying player who is a 9 or 10 they will take the money because there is not enough difference between them to warrant giving up the money. Besides at that level of athlete most coaches are going to feel they can make the difference up with coaching.
How does my point help make your point? Your point was that the DSC boys team was made will all local talent. I don't know if the boys were minorities or not. Just remember reading about how they traveled to Rock Hill.
No my point was not that the team was made of local talent but that the minorities on the team were local talent. I know the one boy who traveled from Charleston was not and I do not believe the one from TN was either.
Maybe to be clearer with the point, why would a club give up the money a paying player would bring in when they can get a player who will pay to come from that far away to play on a winning team, and pay to do it!
Discoveries (just like CESA) will take the paying player over the non-paying player (IMHO even if the non payer is slightly better) everytime. CESA, like the other top clubs everywhere, have players from all over on thier teams becasue of recruiting, reputation, and the fact the highly competitive players want to play for winners. I am not knocking these things just pointing them out, and if I thought it was what my player needed I would be in the car driving to MESA too.
Was there not more than one that came from Charleston?
I am not sure, but could have been, I know of the high profile one that most people know of but not sure if anyone else did.
2 players from Charleston
1 player from GA
1 player from TN (minority)
Futbol:
First, NOBODY in American football makes $50 million/year from football. Not close. The reality is, ELITE international "futbolers" make salaries comparable to elite American footballers, for MUCH longer careers.
Second, the issue regarding choices made by parents of 8-year-olds boils down to opportunity and affordability -- in short, access.
We act like this is an either/or situation. The point is, for many elite American athletes, soccer is not a viable choice, for MANY of the same reasons baseball is no longer a viable choice for inner-city kids. The number of African American players at the EXTREMELY LUCRATIVE major league level has declined, and obviously NOT because of the $3 million/year AVERAGE salary.
This isn't about minority kids/families choosing football or basketball OVER soccer. Far more likely, the choice is made IN THE ABSENCE of soccer.
As a lower-profile sport, soccer and its supporters must make an active case to expand participation -- not just sit back and wait for it to happen.
Well there you go! Nobody can complain about a lack of minority outreach if the club looks for players from that far away!
