SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Club Soccer & ODP Pounding Theses Into the Red Door

>>[coldhardtruth] definitely a lack of players on the girls side does not help their situation [...] I think as a society that we feel girls or women are willing to accept less.<<

>>[thomaspietras] I think you are correctly describing a situation that is a result of numbers (not primarily gender). If this is a correct assessment, then I guess the question is how to get more, better coaches for "low-number" player groups.<<

It seems the conclusion that "coldhardtruth" reached, that we as a society feel girls are willing to accept less, was...well...ignored. And yet, this should raise red flags for anyone reading it that he is hypothesizing a root cause to the "numbers problem." Labeling it as a "numbers problem" is like labeling a cancerous tumor as a "bump problem" -- it indicates the symptom instead of the cause.

When I read this I can see a principal at an elementary school in rural Mississipi in the 1960's saying that there really wasn't a racial problem, there's just a numbers problem.

Clubs have to make a decision regarding whether they want to actively work to increase the penetration of soccer into underserved markets. If a club has fewer female players than the population it serves, then it can ignore that or actively try to change it.

>>[thomaspietras] Clubs have tried paying more money. My experience is that sometimes this works, sometimes it does not. I've seen great "volunteer" coaches (no pay) and lousy, highly paid coaches.<<

It's difficult to argue with anything sometimes working and sometimes not. I've never heard of a club paying girls coaches more than boys coaches. If you couple that with merit pay (you also pay more based on success -- and you can define success any way you want -- winning, girls making ODP who want to, girls making JV teams who want to, etc.) it sounds like a fascinating way of addressing the problem. I'd love to see a club who has a weak girls program reputation try it and see how it worked over time.

There's a simpler answer if you don't want to do something like this. Hire executive leadership who has a superb reputation in the girls game -- or at the very least a burning desire to earn one.

>>[thomaspietras] It helps if the parents are active in the process of finding coaches. Don't sit back and rely only on the DOC to find coaches. Help them identify and recruit good coaches. Teams with supportive (but not insane) parents tend to find good coaches.<<

This sounds like excellent advice for the majority of South Carolina clubs.

I'd hope that parents at the clubs aspiring to be "professional" and "elite" can rely on professionals to do this and do a better job than either a sane or insane parent could do. I hope that the 600K+ people in the Columbia area get a professional club in this merger led by people who lead youth soccer as a job, not a hobby.

Finding a weak girls program at a club is a very easy task to accomplish.The HARD part is convincing the BOD or DOC to try something different for the girls.I can not tell you how many board meetings we have been to with seven sets of parents there to show support for the girls to no avail.I have found very few people want to deal with this issue.We have taken the attitude that our daughter is not a second class citizen and does not throw like a girl and when she runs into roadblocks...It just makes her stronger and she finds ways around them!!!

Truth, I don't know if I understand what you mean by a low number of players. I was speaking mainly to the statement that you made about one coach per team. That is unrealistic in terms of having enough quality coaches in order to have that ratio.

Ricky,Send us some coaches please...One coach per team and some of these coaches have two teams and someone else might pull game day duties if the coach is with the other team.As far as the low numbers of players comment...girls teams.How do we get quality coaching for a low number of girls teams?When the higher end coaches are stretched out on our boys teams, how do we ensure that the girls are getting the coaching they deserve?I am not speaking for one club..I am speaking on our experience with soccer in the low country over the last six years...do not want to offend anybody..

Truth,
It has been our experience that the club structures the staff to ensure quality with all teams. I know this may sound politically correct, but the "top" coaches aren't just with the boys, and they aren't just with the "top" teams. This is what I was referring to.

Sounds like we need some restructuring...or different attitudes when it comes to girls.I feel like the stronger coaches should be with the 9s,10s,11s,and 12s to ensure stronger teams the rest of the way up

>>When I read this I can see a principal at an elementary school in rural Mississipi in the 1960's saying that there really wasn't a racial problem, there's just a numbers problem.<<

I'm not sure how to read this. Are you calling me a racist?

CHTruth was talking about lack of coaches for girls teams [symptom] and I responded that I thought this was due to lack of numbers [cause].

I did not address the cause of lack of numbers, as symptom.

Chico, you appear to believe,correct me if I'm wrong, that the lack of numbers is caused by a lack of concern by club leadership. On this, I would have to disagree with you. I don't think this was the case when I was at NECSA and I don't think it has been the case with other clubs I talk to in the Midlands.

Now, if you want to make the argument that the strategies used by the clubs in the Midlands have been ineffective--I won't argue. Clearly, I never figured it out.

Perhaps we can keep it to a discussion of strategies and not an indictment of motives or motivation. But, perhaps I'm being too thin-skinned.

>>I'd hope that parents at the clubs aspiring to be "professional" and "elite" can rely on professionals to do this and do a better job than either a sane or insane parent could do. I hope that the 600K+ people in the Columbia area get a professional club in this merger led by people who lead youth soccer as a job, not a hobby.>>

I don't disagree. Couple of comments...

1. I think that professionals, no matter how big or "elite" their club is can use help from parents. Parents can help in the coach identification and recruiting process (which is what I said). That does not mean they do the hiring or firing.

2. From what I have heard so far, I think that CUFC is intent on hiring professionals in order to place less reliance on volunteers. Even if they achieve this, I believe parents and volunteers have an important role to play.

>>[thomaspietras] I'm not sure how to read this. Are you calling me a racist?<<

Of course...and I was also literally calling you a tumorous cancer as well.

(See: Metaphor)

(Note: I really wasn't calling you a tumorous cancer..or a racist.)

>>CHTruth was talking about lack of coaches for girls teams [symptom] and I responded that I thought this was due to lack of numbers [cause].<<

If you go back and read the post you responded to and your reply you'll find that you indicated agreement, and yet you actually apparently agreed to only a single sentence, when the majority of the post discussed the lack of quality coaching available for girls and the opinion that our society feels girls are willing to accept less. You appeared oblivious to the main points. Now...is that because you're insensitive to the issue of gender bias or because you were busy and only read the first sentence? I have not a clue; but I'll assume it was just being busy.

>>I did not address the cause of lack of numbers, as symptom.<<

See above.

>>Chico, you appear to believe,correct me if I'm wrong, that the lack of numbers is caused by a lack of concern by club leadership. On this, I would have to disagree with you. I don't think this was the case when I was at NECSA and I don't think it has been the case with other clubs I talk to in the Midlands.<<

I really don't know how concerned any midstate clubs have been. Regarding you personally, I don't know how many nights you beat your breast in angst over the issue. All I can do is look at what you write and your outward behavior. So far, what you have written appears to indicate a lack of information concerning gender bias and about women's programs outside of the context of concern for any "underperforming program." That's why I'm spending the time I am on this.

>>Now, if you want to make the argument that the strategies used by the clubs in the Midlands have been ineffective--I won't argue. Clearly, I never figured it out.<<

What strategies? I'm not saying this in the sense of "clubs didn't have any" -- I'm saying this as a parent of a female soccer player who hasn't discerned any at most midlands clubs for years. For example, have there been good female teams at NECSA? Yes. Has there been any concerted effort to improve the women's program at NECSA? It isn't apparent to a midlands parent living in the area who tends to spend time reading and understanding youth soccer. Thus, I'm begging you to spell out precisely what the strategies were for improving women's soccer.

>>Perhaps we can keep it to a discussion of strategies and not an indictment of motives or motivation. But, perhaps I'm being too thin-skinned.<<

So far, what you've written is that gender is irrevelent and asked me why I believe it is. I've done so. Rather than debate your central idea on its merits, you've begun once again arguing about the way that I'm debating you. I'm trying my best to keep the conversation about ideas; but it appears that no matter how politely I try to debate, you raise the "motivations" issue again.

I think part of the reason for this is that people tend to infer motivations when you talk about actions. For example, if someone asks for a list of children who have done something that they have labelled as "wrong", it's hard not to impute motive -- particularly when no alternative explanation is given.

>>I think that professionals, no matter how big or "elite" their club is can use help from parents. Parents can help in the coach identification and recruiting process (which is what I said). That does not mean they do the hiring or firing.<<

Okay...without a debate regarding your motives...you tend to say things so generally that while they are hard to argue with, they also fail to shine much light on the subject at hand. Yes...all youth soccer clubs in the United States of which I'm aware rely on volunteers. And I'm sure that parents can send an e-mail to a DOC talking about a great coach they want hired for the club.

But what I expect from a professional club, led by professional management and professional coaching, are personnel who keep track on coaches in South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, etc. and who have hiring plans in place. In short, they know more about coaches within several hundred miles (or more) than a parent -- because it's their job.

There is within many clubs, particularly in the midlands, something that I've heard referred to, not kindly, by coaches in the area as the "parents know it all" phenomenon. For example, I know of a few midland managers that think that they basically "lead" the team and the coach is a hired hand. I would hope at a professional club that the professional coach is the leader and a manager is yet another volunteer parent -- absolutely needed and wanted -- but not in a position of authority.

>>2. From what I have heard so far, I think that CUFC is intent on hiring professionals in order to place less reliance on volunteers. Even if they achieve this, I believe parents and volunteers have an important role to play.<<

What? CUFC is hiring professionals to place less reliance on volunteers? I had hoped that they were hiring professionals to place less reliance on part-time (i.e., paid, not volunteer) people. Which volunteers are they trying to replace?

>>[thomaspietras] It is easy to say (paraphrasing): if "they" don't want to share information, I'm not going to chase them down.<<

Do you notice that I don't paraphrase you? It goes back to your earlier observations that this is a difficult medium. It's incredibly easy to unintentionally or intentionally falsely attribute a position to someone. Here's what I actually said: "When folks are too busy to distribute and/or publish information, I'm not going to burn their time by calling them and asking for more information than they've publicly released -- it's a fool's errand to a fool's end. Each club has to decide how to disseminate information and how much they want to disseminate -- just as each person interested has to decide to try to discover information."

Let me go further in this to make sure I understand what you are recommending. You are recommending that I call a planning member of a committee of a corporate entity that is in the midst of planning and expect that planning member to individually tell me things that he and the people he's working with have not agreed should be divulged to the general public or that they have agreed to be divulged but just haven't gotten around to because communication is such a low priority. Is that what you believe is the best approach?

I see two problems with doing that. The first is that I can't, in my wildest imagination, imagine it working. The second is that if it did somehow work, then I'd be aiding and abetting a prioritization scheme that places communicating with its membership at such a low priority (e.g., writing multiple incredibly long complaints is more important than communicating with its membership.)

Here's a counter to your proposal. Why don't you, with the credibility and friendship that you have earned as being a loyal NECSA member all of these years, give someone a call and tell them that they need to use their web sites (minimally) or the message board (I know that "inner members" not only have access to the message board but have posted in the past) to distribute information as quickly as they can? Wouldn't that actually be the simplest and easiest way to approach this? Barring that, why don't you, with the credibility and friendship you've earned, tell them that if they don't want to do that you'll volunteer to do it on an on-going basis?

Somehow, I've got to believe that you'll be perceived as a more friendly "reporter" than I ever would. I believe that my best contribution at this point is to take a "minority position" publicly on issues that I believe to be important. And while I believe that there is a great deal of discomfort regarding public debate within South Carolina youth soccer clubs, I believe it is a valuable and worthwhile thing.

I need some sparknotes to keep up with some of these discussions!