I have seen some very questionable calls and penalties lately. How often do you think refs make a knowingly wrong call?? I really did not think this really happened even when I complained about a call. I just really deep inside just assumed the refs just was making a bad call. But the other night a pk was called on a team who was winning by a large number. When a PK was called at the end of the game. When the coached asked what the call was they were told that there was not really a fowl but the ref just felt sorry for the team and "wanted to make their day". Now this blew me away. The goalie was devastated, because she wants to protect the shut out. Now what is your response to this and how often does this happen in other games that might be more close?
its obamas new goal re-distribution program.
SEE
Safety
Equality
Enjoyment
That's all any referee cares about when he or she is officiating a match. Any reasonable referee does not care who wins the match. The team that scores the most goals will win the match.
The Laws of the Game must be upheld. There's no wiggle room for sympathy. A foul is a foul. Offside is offside. No matter how sympathetic (human nature) a referee may be, watching a team getting treated like cones in a 14-0 loss, the referee must remain impartial (this is the balance between EQUALITY and ENJOYMENT).
If "goals against" is a region tie-breaker, a team could lose a region title (and a more favorable seed in the state play-offs) if a referee were to allow a questionable goal to a team on the wrong end of a lopsided match.
But hey........we're all human.
There are 2 issues here:
1) Competence.
2) Accountability.
The first is far less relevant in the absence of the other.
This referee sounds like another advocate for “Everyone gets a Trophy.” If what he/she stated to the coach was accurate concerning the foul, they should never be allowed to officiate another game. I believe we all understand that calls are going to go both ways, and be missed, etc, but to make up a call because you feel sorry for the other team…Very, Very Sad
When the local assigner tells you a certain official "probably shouldn't be working high-level boys' games," and you see the same guy a few weeks later working another high-level boys' game ...
Where's the accountability?
How about a ref calling a "foul" for a team running a trick play. I've seen that one before. Coach asked what it was for and he said, "That's unsportsmanlike."
Good referees police themselves. They know when it's time to get out, or turn back tough assignments.
Poor referees don't know, or worse, don't care.
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When the local assigner tells you a certain official "probably shouldn't be working high-level boys' games," and you see the same guy a few weeks later working another high-level boys' game ...
Where's the accountability?
Accountability....or Availability?
Sounds like we have a "scarcity of resources"...aka....a referee shortage. What are you doing in the Low Country to combat this problem? We're being proactive up here in the Rock Hill area. We just sponsored a Grade 9 USSF course in Tega Cay a couple of weeks ago and certified about 30 new referees.
So, you can continue to whine and slam.......or you can be part of the solution. 
Hurst, agree but let's not stop there. How about on going training, especially on the pitch, not all classroom. How more and consistent assessments? I quit reffing after having double hip replacement and couldn't keep up with varsity boys any longer, thus, couldn't earn my pay or do the game justice. How many refs do you feel would fail a basic physical test? Why aren't physical tests given at every level, especially HS? Hopefully the parents and coaches don't ruin that new crop of refs you have started and hopefully a support development system can be put in place.
Good question. What ARE we doing? From my position, little or nothing. I understand your defensiveness on this, but you miss the point. Identifying a problem precedes its solution!
First, you cite cases. Then, you hold your existing resources accountable for improvement. (We obviously don't.)
You don't just repeatedly and blithely assign a guy and claim a shortage. You assign him LOWER, where he has a better chance to hone his craft, and insist he improve. Repeatedly assigning him to high-level games gives him no incentive (or venue) to improve.
We've had this discussion before, and I see your point. Now try to see mine.
I ask you, at what point does a whine/slam become valid? When a kid gets hurt? When an outcome is changed?
And why should we wait for that to happen?
I've been to several games this season alone in which an official's decision affected an outcome. I saw a TOTALLY mismanaged verbal skirmish escalate into a shoving match and red card (suspension) that affected the outcome of a subsequent match.
To me, that's calling a spade a spade. And until that's done often enough, nothing will change.
Why should this not be discussed? Because we might hurt people's feelings? Because the referees' "union" isn't willing to point fingers, lest fingers be pointed at them?
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You don't just repeatedly and blithely assign a guy and claim a shortage. You assign him LOWER, where he has a better chance to hone his craft, and insist he improve. Repeatedly assigning him to high-level games gives him no incentive (or venue) to improve.
Your point is valid. If there are other better-qualified referees in your area, who are getting assigned lower-level matches, you do need to point this out. Speak specifically with the assessor and the assigner. They have to put their best guys on the best matches......the players deserve it.
Hurst, in all honesty, do you feel that the assigner does that? I have written a few emails with no response and no action. You know as well as I do that a few should not have been asked back. Why do we continue to let those 'few bad apples' tarnish the group as a whole? I have been to over 2 dozen HS games this year to-date and I have seen an assessor twice, and one of those was a scrimmage game. How many games have you done this year and how many times assessed? How often do the refs as a group get together once the season starts or at the end of the season? Do those refs sitting in the stands watching a game for enjoyment give the crew and/or assessor/assignor feedback if they see something 'horrible'? Feedback, physical conditioning, and capability are critical. The refs need to earn their keep as it is not bad pay. Schools/teams should receive the quality that they are paying for.
I'm confident that our local assignor gives the best games to the best officials. Games that may not be played at the highest level, but do have the potential to "boil over", he gives to officials that he feels can best manage the game.
I can tell you that the best officials (if available) are assigned to many more matches than the worst officials.
I am assessed more often in USSF matches, than I am in high school matches. I'm not sure if our assessor gets paid to assess high school games.
We, as officials, don't meet once the regular season begins. The assignor should probably come up with a creative way to get everyone to show up for a Sunday evening meeting around mid-season.
On days when there are many matches scheduled, you are going to see varying degrees of experience out on the pitch officiating.
Here's an easy answer to the problem. Since the pool is shallow, let's move girls high school soccer to the fall. Now there are fewer (half) matches and all of the "A" officials will be assigned games.
Can or do coaches submit an evaluation of the ref after each game. Would it help if along with the score card, each coach gives a rating of the ref performance on a scale of 1-5. I would think most coaches would be fairly objective. I would think it would be rare for a winning team coach to rate a ref a 5 and the losing team a 1. If at the end of the season, a ref has a poor average rating, then they need to go back through a full training to get re-certified. Also, the assignor can maybe help pair a poor ref with a good ref to hopefully help them to improve during the season. There is an added incentive for the ref to do a competent job, not favoring one team over the other since both coaches will be rating his/her performance as well as it provides continuous feedback to the ref.
Import has been advocating this for years. I think it's a very good idea. It should be a post-game requirement of the coaches. Coaches should have to report their final score, identify players who received cautions and ejections, report players who sat out a suspension, and rate the officials. All of this can be done on a dedicated website. Who wants to maintain it, and how do we "motivate" coaches to file reports after every match?
By the way, should we have the officials rate the coaches as well? Not just their behavior, but their ability motivate, manage and make tactical changes?
Also, how about using the referees to select All-Region, All-State, N-S and Clash of the Carolinas players? Takes the heat off the coaches committee. Who is more impartial than a referee?
Three good ideas...I for one would welcome the feedback as well as the opportunity to give it. Perhaps officials have a different focus in the game other than identifying all-star players, but including at least one official from each region on the selection committe could certainly add some objective insight from a person who has actually seen multiple players in action.
Hurst, while I know it was (somewhat) tongue-in-cheek, your second and third paragraphs lose me.
The reality is, referees DO effectively rate/govern coaches' behavior already. Or at least, when necessary, they should. The reality is, many "lesser" officials are intimidated by certain coaches and their reputations.
As to accountability -- the key issue here -- coaches already are accountable to school districts, administrations, ADs, parents, players, media, etc. When their performance is consistently poor, they are asked to step down.
When was the last time an SCHSL referee faced THAT kind of scrutiny? Maybe, just maybe, it's time that started.
Second paragraph was tongue-in-cheek. Kudos to the school districts that demand the same excellence out of their varsity head soccer coaches that you expect out of me when I'm officiating a competitive (or any) match.
Third paragraph has some merit, if the referees helping with the selection really put the effort in to identify the players they are officiating.
With regards to the original post. The Ref that allowed the questionable penalty is a National Ref and does MLS games. He is a very highly qualified Ref. I think that winning team was up 10 or 12 to nothing when the penalty was called. If the winning teams goalie was devastated, imagine how the losing teams keeper felt. In addition, the winning team showed very little signs of letting up until the very end. Did the Ref call a penalty that is somewhat questionable? Maybe. But who really cares. It did not change or influence the outcome of the game. It did however bring a smile to the faces of the losing team. Remember, it is a game.
Giggs, are you really that stupid. Or are you an idiot. The refs JOB that he is paid to do is call the game according to the rules. PERIOD! And if you would have read the original post, you would see that the ref said there was no foul. He just wanted to give a goal to the other team. I pray and hope your not a ref to.
Too-To-Two... Each has it's own use. Being called stupid or an idiot by someone who doesn't know the difference..... Priceless.
Hey, Hobo I got Giggs figured out. He was one of those guys who never played sports so now he is an adult he wants to be a ref so he can get back at every athlete who is successful.
I have a kid that plays soccer for her school. I have a husband that refs high school soccer. Lord I hear it from both sides! I try to not criticize the refs because I KNOW there are times they can't see from the pitch that we can from the stands but some of the calls I have seen this year have REALLY shocked me. Both FOR and AGAINST our team. We have played a few games in one certain area that the biased has been so obvious it isn't even funny- including high fiving the other teams after the games (we won the games despite the calling)which is EXTREMELY unprofessional. Sometimes refs make bad calls- sometimes they make stupid calls-but I will state here what I tell the parents that are obnoxious at our games- take the [censored] class- buy the whistle- call the games and stay out of the stands. Otherwise- watch your team- cheer for your kid- praise good plays from either side- and let them play.
I saw a ref yesterday single-handedly destroy my daughters teams' opportunity for a tournament title at the BC tournament with a terrible pk call which was ultimately a great slide tackle. Everyone that saw it, except the idiot in the middle, agreed. It was awful. What is our recourse against these people?
Go become a ref so you can make perfect calls all the time.
Actually, Cav, the question is somewhat legitimate. Was an evaluator/assigner present? As I assume the answer is no, is there any legitimate recourse for a coach, or at least, a venue to ask questions?
Nobody expects officials to be perfect. But some are MUCH better than others, and some simply shouldn't be getting any assignments.
the parents are more the problem than bad refs
stop bashing and encourage your player to give it their all and rise above bad calls
We should cut and paste this thread every year... same junk, same thinking, same issues, every year.
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We should cut and paste this thread every year... same junk, same thinking, same issues, every year.
Yep, you're right. Saw a JV game yesterday where a terrible no-call on offsides led to the game-winning goal with seven minutes left of a tied match. Every year, bad officials.
Rule Question: Free kicks: If 10 yards is not asked by the player taking the free kick and the ref does not tell the player to back up 10 yards, can a player receive a yellow card for encroachment?
The fact that the same issues surface every year tells you there is an ongoing problem. And it ain't just parental perception.
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Rule Question: Free kicks: If 10 yards is not asked by the player taking the free kick and the ref does not tell the player to back up 10 yards, can a player receive a yellow card for encroachment?
Absolutely, in fact when I do a game, the first time that happens I book the player, and I never have a problem after that. Being said, you must use some common sense, if a player is 7-8 yards from the ball and only needs to walk back a few steps that is ok. However a player by now should know that 1-5 yards away is not 10, especially if they are on a marked football field!
Players at all levels (NCAA, FIFA and high school) are REQUIRED to give 10 yards, if they fail to do so, whether it is asked for or not, they can be booked.
I don't care what you do - arrgy - what does the rule say. Does the rule say they are required or is that is what is expected? Why would it be ok if the player only needed to take a few steps? Because that is OK with you?
The rules require that the defenders allow 10 yards 360 degrees around the ball. There is a difference between purposely standing 2 feet from the ball to prevent a quick restart and trying to get 10 yards away but missjudgeing by a couple of yards. I agree with arrgy, when I was refereeing, I cautioned players who stepped within two or three yards of the ball in a blatant attempt to prevent a quick restart which the attacking team has the right to take.
I love the one, when the team that does the fouling, moves the ball (kicks it from the point of the foul) to get the same... time. To me this should always get a caution, but rarely is.
We had an opponent kick the ball into our bench, while wasting time prior to our throw in... Nothing done. She dropped it and launched it into our players... no joke. Her dad said from the stands she did not mean to kick it so hard, he must be a mind reader.
We had a "lady" from the other team shoot the bird to some boys in the crowd, right in front of the ref while he was carding her. Nothing done.
We had a very important region match, have a no call. Our player shoots, the keeper grabs it, their defender then knocks our girl down in the box. No foul... I guess there are different rules when in the box, and at the end of a game. I always thought a foul was a foul, no matter where it happens.
I am sure there are more, funnier, and sadder ones than these. I get a laugh how so many obvious ones are let alone, while touch or 50/50 challenges are called fouls.
To your point Coach P. how about the kid who walks to the balls then quickly turns slowly walking away (continously moving) setting her wall. Legal or not.
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the parents are more the problem than bad refs
stop bashing and encourage your player to give it their all and rise above bad calls
this, its sports & you have to live with bad/missed calls in every sport. refs don't get up in the morning wanting to make a bad call. for every fan that agrees with a call, theres a fan across the field that doesn't, go figure.
regarding the quick kick, some experienced refs will overlook the 10yd rule because that restart player decided his team had advantage with the quick kick.
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I don't care what you do - arrgy - what does the rule say. Does the rule say they are required or is that is what is expected? Why would it be ok if the player only needed to take a few steps? Because that is OK with you?
Considering I, as the referee, am the one running the game..yes. As I said before there is a difference between a player who is 1-5 yards from the ball and one who is 7-9 yards from the ball. If I were to book every player who was in the 7-9 range, I would never get the game finished. Did you ever wonder why that mark off the field from the corner arcs were placed there? Because players and officials could not tell 10 yards from the arc.
There is something in the rule/law books that MOST people don't know about, its called trifiling. Referees are required to refrain from trifiling the game, meaning if a player is 7 yards from the ball, carding that player would serve no interest.
Experienced referees, and not inexperienced and clueless parents and coaches don't understand that cards are used for a purpose, and a referee has to ask themself what am I going to get for this card? If I were to card the player who is 7 yards away I will get nothing but grief and complaints for the rest of the match, and I would have accomplished nothing when all I could have done was tell the player to take 2 steps back.
Stop trying to micromanage a game, and allow the players to play and the referees to officiate.
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the parents are more the problem than bad refs
stop bashing and encourage your player to give it their all and rise above bad calls
this, its sports & you have to live with bad/missed calls in every sport. refs don't get up in the morning wanting to make a bad call. for every fan that agrees with a call, theres a fan across the field that doesn't, go figure.
regarding the quick kick, some experienced refs will overlook the 10yd rule because that restart player decided his team had advantage with the quick kick.
Again.... no a foul is not always a foul wherever it happens. The question you SHOULD ask is was the same apparent foul called or ignored earlier in the match. What a fan, a coach, or a player thinks is a foul does not matter, it is what the referee believes is a foul.
Next time you are at a match don't judge what the referee calls based on what you think the foul is, judge if what he called in the first minute was the same as what he called in the 40th or 80th minute. Baseball players know that the first inning is for catchers and pitchers to determine what the umpire's strike zone is. Every umpire has a different zone, and as long as its consistant in that game the players don't mind.
There are plenty of times when I will call or not call something in a game and tell the players that I called it 10 minutes ago, or you did the same thing that your opponent did. The best is when players think something should be called and I tell them that I didn't call it 5 minutes ago so I am not going to call it now. Experienced players will understand this and adjust. Fans and coaches are clueless and have no concept of what is going on or what is being said, they just react to what they see and most of the time they are not sure of what they just saw.
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the parents are more the problem than bad refs
stop bashing and encourage your player to give it their all and rise above bad calls
this, its sports & you have to live with bad/missed calls in every sport. refs don't get up in the morning wanting to make a bad call. for every fan that agrees with a call, theres a fan across the field that doesn't, go figure.
regarding the quick kick, some experienced refs will overlook the 10yd rule because that restart player decided his team had advantage with the quick kick.
Again.... no a foul is not always a foul wherever it happens. The question you SHOULD ask is was the same apparent foul called or ignored earlier in the match. What a fan, a coach, or a player thinks is a foul does not matter, it is what the referee believes is a foul.
Next time you are at a match don't judge what the referee calls based on what you think the foul is, judge if what he called in the first minute was the same as what he called in the 40th or 80th minute. Baseball players know that the first inning is for catchers and pitchers to determine what the umpire's strike zone is. Every umpire has a different zone, and as long as its consistant in that game the players don't mind.
There are plenty of times when I will call or not call something in a game and tell the players that I called it 10 minutes ago, or you did the same thing that your opponent did. The best is when players think something should be called and I tell them that I didn't call it 5 minutes ago so I am not going to call it now. Experienced players will understand this and adjust. Fans and coaches are clueless and have no concept of what is going on or what is being said, they just react to what they see and most of the time they are not sure of what they just saw.
Huh? Listen, I'm sure you're an experienced ref but soccer is not baseball. Baseball is not a contact sport. The strike zone is arbitrary because it happens quicker and in a position that no one else can accurately interpret. What happens if a pitcher intentionally hits a batter? He's tossed after a warning...sometimes without one if it's deemed exceptionally egregious. I've seen a game in soccer where a team fouled another over 18 times and no one received a yellow card or even a talking to. They also let 8th graders play varsity baseball at the high school level. To compare the strike zone to soccer is ridiculous.
Soccer is a contact sport and the PLAYERS have to be protected. This is a sport where a 100 lbs. 14 yr old can be seriously injured by a 180 lbs. 18 year old if a referee will let them get away with it. This isn't the college level or professional level. They are developed and are adults. I don't care about your agenda to let things slide because you're "trying to be consistent". If my best (or worst) player is clipped from behind and goes tumbling to the ground and there is no call because you don't feel like raising your whistle in a 15-0 game or you feel like giving a goal kick instead of a corner kick because one team is drubbing some other team 10-0 or you decide a handball isn't a handball in the box because you don't want the other team to score again or you don't know the difference between a bad throw in and a legal one or you decide to call it tight around a winning teams 18 yard box so the "other team gets a chance"...you're going to hear about it. If a player is fouled, injured, and there is proper execution of the laws of the game then that's fine. Injuries are part of it. As coaches, we feel that a certain amount of responsibility for our players' health and safety, even more so than our teams capability to win. If I knock you in the teeth in the street are you going to be satisfied when the cop says "Well, I didn't arrest that guy 5 minutes ago who hit the other person. So, sorry."?
IF YOU CONSISTENTLY WON'T MAKE A CALL, YOU'RE NOT A GOOD REFEREE. We live in the age of youtube and video cameras on cell phones. If you let a game get out of hand or you let a player sucker punch someone and get away with it. If you "fail" to make a call because "you didn't call it 5 minutes ago" and someone gets hurt or it costs somebody the game and you're in the wrong. It's now on you. If you're a coach and aren't filming your games to send to the high school league, you need to start right now. We're going to protect our players even if it means sending in game film for a referee. You're getting paid for your time and it's a lot more than most of us make per day. You are providing a service as a referee and are entrusted with the safety of our players and the sanctity of the game. Act accordingly. The rule book is online. I keep a pocket copy of it available with me so I can quote it like scripture from the sidelines. Call me Coach Jesus.
A foul IS a foul no matter the minute, the score, the team, the difference in ability level, the gender, the age, etc. A FOUL IS A FOUL.
I agree 100% S UP and P. ARRGY, if you ignore a tree falling in the woods, did it fall? Yes, it did fall. A foul is a foul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Knocking a 9th grader down from behind, just because the ball is gone, and the kid is in the box does not mean it is not a foul, to me that means the ref wants to have control of the outcome of the game, not the other way. If it happens call it, period, the kids WILL adjust. PROTECT the kids MR and MRS ref, PLEASE.
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the parents are more the problem than bad refs
stop bashing and encourage your player to give it their all and rise above bad calls
this, its sports & you have to live with bad/missed calls in every sport. refs don't get up in the morning wanting to make a bad call. for every fan that agrees with a call, theres a fan across the field that doesn't, go figure.
regarding the quick kick, some experienced refs will overlook the 10yd rule because that restart player decided his team had advantage with the quick kick.
Again.... no a foul is not always a foul wherever it happens. The question you SHOULD ask is was the same apparent foul called or ignored earlier in the match. What a fan, a coach, or a player thinks is a foul does not matter, it is what the referee believes is a foul.
Next time you are at a match don't judge what the referee calls based on what you think the foul is, judge if what he called in the first minute was the same as what he called in the 40th or 80th minute. Baseball players know that the first inning is for catchers and pitchers to determine what the umpire's strike zone is. Every umpire has a different zone, and as long as its consistant in that game the players don't mind.
There are plenty of times when I will call or not call something in a game and tell the players that I called it 10 minutes ago, or you did the same thing that your opponent did. The best is when players think something should be called and I tell them that I didn't call it 5 minutes ago so I am not going to call it now. Experienced players will understand this and adjust. Fans and coaches are clueless and have no concept of what is going on or what is being said, they just react to what they see and most of the time they are not sure of what they just saw.
Huh? Listen, I'm sure you're an experienced ref but soccer is not baseball. Baseball is not a contact sport. The strike zone is arbitrary because it happens quicker and in a position that no one else can accurately interpret. What happens if a pitcher intentionally hits a batter? He's tossed after a warning...sometimes without one if it's deemed exceptionally egregious. I've seen a game in soccer where a team fouled another over 18 times and no one received a yellow card or even a talking to. They also let 8th graders play varsity baseball at the high school level. To compare the strike zone to soccer is ridiculous.
Soccer is a contact sport and the PLAYERS have to be protected. This is a sport where a 100 lbs. 14 yr old can be seriously injured by a 180 lbs. 18 year old if a referee will let them get away with it. This isn't the college level or professional level. They are developed and are adults. I don't care about your agenda to let things slide because you're "trying to be consistent". If my best (or worst) player is clipped from behind and goes tumbling to the ground and there is no call because you don't feel like raising your whistle in a 15-0 game or you feel like giving a goal kick instead of a corner kick because one team is drubbing some other team 10-0 or you decide a handball isn't a handball in the box because you don't want the other team to score again or you don't know the difference between a bad throw in and a legal one or you decide to call it tight around a winning teams 18 yard box so the "other team gets a chance"...you're going to hear about it. If a player is fouled, injured, and there is proper execution of the laws of the game then that's fine. Injuries are part of it. As coaches, we feel that a certain amount of responsibility for our players' health and safety, even more so than our teams capability to win. If I knock you in the teeth in the street are you going to be satisfied when the cop says "Well, I didn't arrest that guy 5 minutes ago who hit the other person. So, sorry."?
IF YOU CONSISTENTLY WON'T MAKE A CALL, YOU'RE NOT A GOOD REFEREE. We live in the age of youtube and video cameras on cell phones. If you let a game get out of hand or you let a player sucker punch someone and get away with it. If you "fail" to make a call because "you didn't call it 5 minutes ago" and someone gets hurt or it costs somebody the game and you're in the wrong. It's now on you. If you're a coach and aren't filming your games to send to the high school league, you need to start right now. We're going to protect our players even if it means sending in game film for a referee. You're getting paid for your time and it's a lot more than most of us make per day. You are providing a service as a referee and are entrusted with the safety of our players and the sanctity of the game. Act accordingly. The rule book is online. I keep a pocket copy of it available with me so I can quote it like scripture from the sidelines. Call me Coach Jesus.
A foul IS a foul no matter the minute, the score, the team, the difference in ability level, the gender, the age, etc. A FOUL IS A FOUL.
Really? Can you read? What I stated was the fact that in ALL sports that have officials make judgment calls...baseball, football, soccer, hockey, basketball, etc. What is a foul to one group officials on Monday night may not be a foul to another group of officials on Friday night. What YOU may think is a push or a charge may not be a push or a charge.
I have done games were sophisticated teams know that when a player puts their hands on the back of another player and jump up for the ball is NOT a foul, and I have done games were teams thought that was a foul and I have done games were teams thought that it should be a card.
The problem in south carolina compared to the five other states I officiate in is that there is no mercy rule. You put in a mercy rule, and most of the garbage in blow out games goes away. If I have a 15-0 game and a player sticks her hand out slightly and touches the ball with her hand you better believe I will NOT call it to make it 16-0. However, if its 15-0 and a player endangers someone by making a reckless challenge, you better believe I will call it and card it. Lets have some common sense here, as you said these are not adults or professional athletes. Yes all players must be protected, but when you run up a score to 15-0 with 20 minutes left, the other team is going to get frustrated and angry, its a natural reaction.
This is what ruins the beautiful game. American, and more specifically high school teams that have no concept and no clue of what is going on. I can tell immediately teams that have players who play in strong club programs, weak club programs and those that don't. It is the only sport were the referee is supposed to have an effect on the play, that is why there is such a thing as advantage and trifiling, it is the way the sport has been played around the world for more than 150 years. Are we supposed to suddenly stop and change it for little 8th grader Suzie Q from Dumpwater South Carolina because her coach who is also the math teacher and only does this for a couple of extra bucks is mad that not everything in the book is called?
8th graders should not be on the field with high school seniors. If your worried that your 100lb. baby girl is going to get hurt because someone makes a LEGAL charge on her then don't play. Don't punish the 180lb. girl who makes a legal play on the ball and knocks down the other girl.
A foul is NOT always a foul. If you think it is, you need to find another sport like basketball that is slow and boring and punishes people for just looking at their opponent funny.
I guess some ref changed the game in a softball game at cherry park in rock hill tuesday night. got punched and the police had to come out. it made the charlotte news.
Not one rule has been quoted by arrgy through out all of his opinionated statements. What do the rules say? What does the rule say about encroachment on a free kick? I didn't ask for an explanation on trifling.
Arrgy...so, let me get this straight...you're saying that with you as a referee, the way we should look at it is, if you call it wrong in the first 10 minutes, call it wrong the same way near the half, and call it the same wrong way throughout the game, then that makes you right? I mean, I totally understand that every official looks at the game in a little bit different way, and it's the coaches' and players' responsibility to adjust to the way the game is being called...but that doesn't necessarily make the way the game is being called RIGHT. It's pretty stupid to keep driving into potholes you know are there when you can drive around them, too, but that doesn't mean it's not the highway department's responsibility to fix the holes as well.
Please, if you will, explain with a little more clarity what you mean by "a foul is not always a foul." My reading of it is, "a foul is only a foul if I choose to call it a foul."
Again, I understand and appreciate that every crew of officials will call a game slightly differently and that it is our job to adjust accordingly. I'll ask you to also understand and appreciate that if different officials call games in a dramatically different way, it is very confusing to the players who are trying to learn their limitations and abilities. Reasonably consistent officiating based on some universal standards isn't too much to ask for.
Your attitude seems to be very clear, though...the decision is all yours and those who don't understand that are uncivilized rabble. That's ok. Perhaps your wording was a bit ill-thought-out, and you're not as arrogant as you sound or as demeaning towards others as you come across.
I will say this, though...if that is your true attitude toward South Carolina soccer and little Suzy from "Dumpwater, South Carolina," then I would respectfully request that you stick to making your money in your other five states and refrain from taking assignments in my little Dumpwater.
We'd hate for you to become soiled among the unwashed masses, after all.
Per USSF: "While the encroachment by these players is clearly against the procedure mandated in Law 14, the referee is allowed to exercise discretion and determine whether the encroachment has had an effect on the kick. "
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Really? Can you read? What I stated was the fact that in ALL sports that have officials make judgment calls...baseball, football, soccer, hockey, basketball, etc. What is a foul to one group officials on Monday night may not be a foul to another group of officials on Friday night. What YOU may think is a push or a charge may not be a push or a charge.
I have done games were sophisticated teams know that when a player puts their hands on the back of another player and jump up for the ball is NOT a foul, and I have done games were teams thought that was a foul and I have done games were teams thought that it should be a card.
The problem in south carolina compared to the five other states I officiate in is that there is no mercy rule. You put in a mercy rule, and most of the garbage in blow out games goes away. If I have a 15-0 game and a player sticks her hand out slightly and touches the ball with her hand you better believe I will NOT call it to make it 16-0. However, if its 15-0 and a player endangers someone by making a reckless challenge, you better believe I will call it and card it. Lets have some common sense here, as you said these are not adults or professional athletes. Yes all players must be protected, but when you run up a score to 15-0 with 20 minutes left, the other team is going to get frustrated and angry, its a natural reaction.
This is what ruins the beautiful game. American, and more specifically high school teams that have no concept and no clue of what is going on. I can tell immediately teams that have players who play in strong club programs, weak club programs and those that don't. It is the only sport were the referee is supposed to have an effect on the play, that is why there is such a thing as advantage and trifiling, it is the way the sport has been played around the world for more than 150 years. Are we supposed to suddenly stop and change it for little 8th grader Suzie Q from Dumpwater South Carolina because her coach who is also the math teacher and only does this for a couple of extra bucks is mad that not everything in the book is called?
8th graders should not be on the field with high school seniors. If your worried that your 100lb. baby girl is going to get hurt because someone makes a LEGAL charge on her then don't play. Don't punish the 180lb. girl who makes a legal play on the ball and knocks down the other girl.
A foul is NOT always a foul. If you think it is, you need to find another sport like basketball that is slow and boring and punishes people for just looking at their opponent funny.
Yes, I can read and I can write for that matter. Discussions about the correct spelling of the word "where" aside (you brought it up), your post only makes you look more like the inept person I thought you were to begin with.
In a perfect world you, as the referee, would attempt to call things to the letter of the laws of the game. Now, I understand that some of them can't see everything. He**, some can't even move from point A to point B without putting their heart at risk for failure, but that isn't an excuse for no-calls OR (more importantly) incorrect calls. In a perfect world, you would be a bi-partisan entity that calls the game according to the rules regardless of the score or situation. All of those scenarios I mentioned in my previous post were things I witnessed in the LAST GAME I was at. They're not isolated incidents or things I made up at the top of my head like your Suzie Q reference.
"I have done games were sophisticated teams know that when a player puts their hands on the back of another player and jump up for the ball is NOT a foul"
^^^^ I can't really decipher what you're trying to say here, but, according to the sentence I'm reading, you think that putting your hands on a player's back to impede them from having a chance at a 50-50 ball is not a foul? I hope I'm wrong.
On to your mercy rule diatribe. I agree with you. Because of the disparity between the have's and the have-nots in soccer in SC, we should have a mercy rule.
However, that is not for you the referee to interpret or decide. Again, you're getting paid to do a job. You want to know why we don't have a mercy rule? Money. You willing to give back half your referee pay when we call a game at half at 7-0? I doubt it. That's what teams would expect. Cost of transportation factors in here too. Why would a team travel 1.5 sometimes 2 hours to play a region game and leave after 40 minutes because they're winning or losing by a certain margin? Most soccer programs lose money every game in the first place. There's a mercy rule in baseball and softball because there is an indeterminate amount of time to their sport and games could go on for hours, days theoretically. Again, your job, that you get paid for, is to enforce the rules. You don't make them. If you're not doing it correctly the people who pay you, the schools you are refereeing at, have the right to let you know about it and let those in charge of you know about it. Whether that is good or bad for the game in SC because the small number officials will simply choose not to officiate games in their off time anymore is debatable. What is not debatable is what we expect from them when they are paid like they are. Until there is a mercy rule in place, I would argue again that score, dominance, gender, size, skilled club players vs not so-skilled club players (not sure why you even made that point but whatever), etc in theory should not matter in a game for you the official. You should try to stay out of the macro game and focus on the micro game. Let the ridicule fly at the coaches that run up the score on teams deliberately. That isn't for you to decide. Not to mention that goals against averages sometimes factor in to playoff seeding and region standings. If it's 20-0 at the end of the game and all 20 goals were legitimate pk's because Suzie Q (your reference) just couldn't help herself with that hand of hers then that's what the laws of the game state...actually, I'd find it odd that she wouldn't be carded out of the match, but you get the point.
I coach and am a Social Studies teacher. What's your point? I don't know the game? That would be an interesting debate. Most of us don't do it for the couple extra bucks let me assure you. We get paid pennies on the hour for our time (assuming you literally are not just a waste but even then, it's not over the top) and to us, our time and players are valuable. Hour to hour pay, the officials are paid way more than we are.
Furthermore, 8th graders aren't on the field with high school seniors according to the laws of the high school game because it's a contact sport...but 9th graders are and they are 14 or 15 years old. Sometimes they are very, very good 9th graders who win matches at the varsity level. If it is a legal but bone-crunching play...cool that is fine. If it is a bomb truck clumsy 18 yr old illegally plowing through some 14 or 15 yr old in the box and the younger players team is winning and you choose to swallow your whistle because you don't want to see that score go from 10-0 to 11-0 in the first half, you, the official, are at fault and you can expect an earful from the sidelines. I wouldn't be arguing it if I haven't seen it happen repeatedly over the years by the same officials.
Shut up has it right!!!!! My original post was about a ref admitting he made a call, when there was not one, just to help out the losing team. "make their day". A couple of years ago in a big game the other team should have been called for a hand ball in the box in the first 30 seconds of the game. It was not called and the ref's exuse for not calling this was he was not going to call a hand ball that early in the game. It is refs like arrgy and the one I was talking about in the original post and the one that did not call hand ball that ruin it for the rest of the refs. I was never talking about a bad call a ref made, or a judgement call. I'm talking about refs who think they can alter a games outcome simply becuase they want to.
"If a player decides to take a free kick quickly and an opponent who is less than 10 yards from the ball intercepts it, the referee must allow play to continue."
arrgy, needs to keep his low post total and stay quite.
Hobo, the examples I think of, are the same... refs making and not making calls because of the time or place, or score. None of that matters, nor should it.
JL MANN game last year, the keeper "out of her box", slides down to block a shot from charging foward, she gets it with her arms, no doubt what so ever... ref calls nothing... only mins left. Are you kidding me?
She was 5 yards outside the 18, and it was hit just like they do with their hands and arms in the box... NO CALL, come one.
arrgy was that you?
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"If a player decides to take a free kick quickly and an opponent who is less than 10 yards from the ball intercepts it, the referee must allow play to continue."
Where did this quote come from?
As a player, the manner in which parents and fans criticize referees is completely unacceptable. Yelling things such as "YOU SUCK," to the referee has no positive impact. What everyone needs to understand is that most players truly don't care about the refs. Just like the weather and field conditions, the referees are just another obstacle in the game. Players understand that if your team is good enough, you should win...no matter the circumstances. In the heat of the moment, players may complain and argue, but we are all competitive. I feel that if this topic were truly an issue, players would be complaining...not biased, overprotective parents.
And Hobo. How about you check your posts for grammatical errors before you post. I can't even read them without forgetting what your original argument was.
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arrgy, needs to keep his low post total and stay quite.
Hobo, the examples I think of, are the same... refs making and not making calls because of the time or place, or score. None of that matters, nor should it.
JL MANN game last year, the keeper "out of her box", slides down to block a shot from charging foward, she gets it with her arms, no doubt what so ever... ref calls nothing... only mins left. Are you kidding me?
She was 5 yards outside the 18, and it was hit just like they do with their hands and arms in the box... NO CALL, come one.
arrgy was that you?
The keeper outside of the penalty area is like any other player and should be called for handling if she uses her hands or arms to play the ball. It should be a direct free kick from the spot of the foul. (Although I've actually seen referees incorrectly award an indirect kick for this infraction.)
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...Just like the weather and field conditions, the referees are just another obstacle in the game...
Well said soccergirl. I need you to help me teach my players to have that attitude.
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And Hobo. How about you check your posts for grammatical errors before you post. I can't even read them without forgetting what your original argument was.
If u r a plar dat means u shewd b in school. So shut up and lisen to de teecher. But I imagine u r someone hiding behind another name. especelee sinc dis is ur first post. And players r complaneing. So I dowt u r a "player", maybe a want to be player. 
Haha, that's cute. Maybe at my school, I actually learn an education. But really, just proving a point. This is why it's pointless to argue with adults. They are mostly Idiots who think they're always right and just shoot anyone down who proves them wrong. Just because I'm more mature than a "Hobo," doesn't mean I'm a poser.
SoccerGirl for President.
WOW.....Just signed up this week on the message board to try and gather some info and keep up with SC HS soccer. If this is the info type that flows all of the time on here have not been missing anything.
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As a player, the manner in which parents and fans criticize referees is completely unacceptable. Yelling things such as "YOU SUCK," to the referee has no positive impact. What everyone needs to understand is that most players truly don't care about the refs. Just like the weather and field conditions, the referees are just another obstacle in the game. Players understand that if your team is good enough, you should win...no matter the circumstances. In the heat of the moment, players may complain and argue, but we are all competitive. I feel that if this topic were truly an issue, players would be complaining...not biased, overprotective parents.
i agree.
it seems like some are looking to get their feelings hurt and blame the bogeyman ref with extreme examples here.
its funny that when some fouls are called, one side says "thank you", the other side says, "aw c'mon ref, let em play"...yet to some of you, every foul is black & white, ya ok.
SoccerGirl,
Excellent first post. That's a level of maturity that would solve a lot of problems on the field. You just have to exercise that same attitude toward other posters...right, wrong, or just plain goofy, don't get drawn into a less mature argument that detracts from your game!
Ohhhh, you've missed a lot.
Or as Hobo would say, "uze mizzed a lott".
Oops, sorry. That was intended for soccervol.
I don't think you've missed anything.
Or as Hobo would say- "ya ain't mizzed nuttin".
Lol...this was some nice time killing reading while on business in Charlotte.....
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Arrgy...so, let me get this straight...you're saying that with you as a referee, the way we should look at it is, if you call it wrong in the first 10 minutes, call it wrong the same way near the half, and call it the same wrong way throughout the game, then that makes you right? I mean, I totally understand that every official looks at the game in a little bit different way, and it's the coaches' and players' responsibility to adjust to the way the game is being called...but that doesn't necessarily make the way the game is being called RIGHT. It's pretty stupid to keep driving into potholes you know are there when you can drive around them, too, but that doesn't mean it's not the highway department's responsibility to fix the holes as well.
Please, if you will, explain with a little more clarity what you mean by "a foul is not always a foul." My reading of it is, "a foul is only a foul if I choose to call it a foul."
Again, I understand and appreciate that every crew of officials will call a game slightly differently and that it is our job to adjust accordingly. I'll ask you to also understand and appreciate that if different officials call games in a dramatically different way, it is very confusing to the players who are trying to learn their limitations and abilities. Reasonably consistent officiating based on some universal standards isn't too much to ask for.
Your attitude seems to be very clear, though...the decision is all yours and those who don't understand that are uncivilized rabble. That's ok. Perhaps your wording was a bit ill-thought-out, and you're not as arrogant as you sound or as demeaning towards others as you come across.
I will say this, though...if that is your true attitude toward South Carolina soccer and little Suzy from "Dumpwater, South Carolina," then I would respectfully request that you stick to making your money in your other five states and refrain from taking assignments in my little Dumpwater.
We'd hate for you to become soiled among the unwashed masses, after all.
What do you mean by "calling it wrong?" Calling what wrong, exactly? How much force is necessary for a push in the back to become a foul? How far away from a players body does their arms have to be in order for a handball to be called? My favorite, how many steps away from where the ball went out can someone throw the ball back into play? These and others are the grey are questions that the referee should be consistant about.
These are the questions that coaches and fans can not answer, and get the most upset about in a game. The rule book says that the player will throw the ball in at the point at which it went out, it happens almost NEVER in a game and yet no one gets upset about it.
A foul is a foul only if it is acknowledged by the referee either by stopping play to address it or by allowing the play to continue and verbally acknowledge to the players to "play on."
Referees are given guidelines: "The Laws of the Game are intended to provide that games should be played with as little interference as possible, and in this view it is the duty of referees to penalize only deliberate breaches of the Law. Constant whistling for trifling and doubtful breaches produces bad feeling and loss of temper on the
part of the players and spoils the pleasure of spectators."
A trifling infraction is one which, though still an offense, has no significant impact upon play.
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Until there is a mercy rule in place, I would argue again that score, dominance, gender, size, skilled club players vs not so-skilled club players (not sure why you even made that point but whatever), etc in theory should not matter in a game for you the official.
Here is a major part of the problem. What fans and coaches do not understand is the following quote from the advice to Referees:
"The referee’s decision as to whether a player’s action is trifling or not is affected considerably by the skill level of the players."
What is a foul, and what is a trifiling offense that should not be called, is to be determined by the skill level of the players. Whether you like it or not, that is what we as referees are told to do, and most good referees take that into consideration when doing a match.
To answer your question about the mercy rule, obviously you are not looking at it from the player point of you, only your own narrow view. What do you think those kids are thinking when the score is 10-0 at half time and the other team is embarassing them by playing keep away for 40 minutes? That isn't competition, that isn't a learning experience, that's being humiliated and no one wants to see that.
Valid point...there is a lot of necessary subjectivity in officiating. Still, to use your example--I think we both agree that a push in the back is not considered legal contact according to the rules/laws of the game (depending on NFHS or FIFA rulebooks, respectively). How much force is necessary for a push in the back to become a foul? According to the rules, any amount should suffice, if the act is committed with intent...the relative strength exerted does not change the decision to commit the action.
The question is, then, how much force is necessary to make the difference between a foul that should be whistled and a foul that should fall under "let 'em play" to avoid "trifling" or taking advantage away from the team that is fouled but continues their attack nonetheless?
So back to what I mean by "calling it wrong," using your example.
Player A is dribbling down the sideline. Defender B, knowing she is beaten, pushes A from behind. A stumbles but retains possession and continues the attack. There is no whistle. I'd consider that calling it right--the illegal contact did not significantly affect the play of the game.
Player A is dribbling down the sideline. Defender B pushes her from behind, causing her to lose control of the ball, which goes out of bounds and is awarded to Team B. No whistle. In this case, the illegal contact caused a change of possession and an advantage for the team that committed it, but the referee decides that a little shove in the back is all part of the game..."rubbin's racin'", if I can quote Days of Thunder. I consider that "calling it wrong," not only because it creates a temporary advantage for the team committing the foul, but letting that kind of contact go, and CONSISTENTLY letting it go, as you advocate (I mean, if you didn't call it 5 minutes ago, you're not going to call it now, right?) usually results in encouraging players to try rougher and rougher play more and more often to see how much they can get away with.
So I'll respond to your question with a question in kind...how many times do you let a player commit a marginal infraction without feeling like they are testing you? How far do you let marginal behavior go before it degenerates into hazardous behavior? How many pushes in the back does a team have to commit before it becomes a pattern rather than an incident, and at what point do you break the precedent of not calling the first one and get control of the pattern?
What if you (perish the thought) actually make a mistake, either with a call or a no-call, realize the mistake was made, and then are faced with the same type of situation minutes later? Do you again make the same call or no-call, just because you did it a few minutes ago and even though you realized it may not have been the best one?
Emerson once said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Not recognizing developing patterns and changes in the temperament of the game and adjusting your reactions to fit would seem to fall into that category.
Chass, very good points to consider but only one correction. the Only time a referee is allowed to judge or imply "intent" is on a handling or handball call. At no other time is an official allowed to imply "intent" in a soccer match. I think that is where consistency in calls or lack of causes issues during matches.
Good point, Craig...I used the wrong word. What I really meant was a deliberate push vs. perhaps stumbling and bumping someone in the course of play...much like the difference between an obviously deliberate trip and two players getting their feet tangled both going for the ball. I agree with your analysis.
Craig, don't forget the popular phrase "in the opinion of the referee....."
Is that in "rules of the game' or "advice to referees'?
In the opinion...is from "rules of the game". Most of what Aargy is quoting is from advice to referees....which you can take with a grain of salt.
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Valid point...there is a lot of necessary subjectivity in officiating. Still, to use your example--I think we both agree that a push in the back is not considered legal contact according to the rules/laws of the game (depending on NFHS or FIFA rulebooks, respectively). How much force is necessary for a push in the back to become a foul? According to the rules, any amount should suffice, if the act is committed with intent...the relative strength exerted does not change the decision to commit the action.
The question is, then, how much force is necessary to make the difference between a foul that should be whistled and a foul that should fall under "let 'em play" to avoid "trifling" or taking advantage away from the team that is fouled but continues their attack nonetheless?
So back to what I mean by "calling it wrong," using your example.
Player A is dribbling down the sideline. Defender B, knowing she is beaten, pushes A from behind. A stumbles but retains possession and continues the attack. There is no whistle. I'd consider that calling it right--the illegal contact did not significantly affect the play of the game.
Player A is dribbling down the sideline. Defender B pushes her from behind, causing her to lose control of the ball, which goes out of bounds and is awarded to Team B. No whistle. In this case, the illegal contact caused a change of possession and an advantage for the team that committed it, but the referee decides that a little shove in the back is all part of the game..."rubbin's racin'", if I can quote Days of Thunder. I consider that "calling it wrong," not only because it creates a temporary advantage for the team committing the foul, but letting that kind of contact go, and CONSISTENTLY letting it go, as you advocate (I mean, if you didn't call it 5 minutes ago, you're not going to call it now, right?) usually results in encouraging players to try rougher and rougher play more and more often to see how much they can get away with.
So I'll respond to your question with a question in kind...how many times do you let a player commit a marginal infraction without feeling like they are testing you? How far do you let marginal behavior go before it degenerates into hazardous behavior? How many pushes in the back does a team have to commit before it becomes a pattern rather than an incident, and at what point do you break the precedent of not calling the first one and get control of the pattern?
What if you (perish the thought) actually make a mistake, either with a call or a no-call, realize the mistake was made, and then are faced with the same type of situation minutes later? Do you again make the same call or no-call, just because you did it a few minutes ago and even though you realized it may not have been the best one?
Emerson once said, "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." Not recognizing developing patterns and changes in the temperament of the game and adjusting your reactions to fit would seem to fall into that category.
That is actually a good example. In the first example the referee should have also acknowledged the push and allowed the play to continue by verbalizing the advantage. That allows the players, fans and coaches know this. 90% of your referees fail to do this, only the good ones do. If your referee is doing this and yelling "play on or advantage" then you know that they know what they are doing.
In the second example, the referee needs to determine if a push actually occured. A player leaning on another player is not a push, a player sticking her arm out slightly from her body is also not a push. A push must be unreasonable force with her arm or hand extended, if it is unreasonable force with no arm or hand extended it is a charge. This is where the referee needs to determine the skill level of the players. I recently did a game in which a US National Team player was on the field for his high school playing against some really lower level opponents who did everything to get the ball away from him. He didn't want me to call anything even when he lost the ball and one time got upset with me that I called a foul against the other team when he thought it was his mistake that caused him to lose the ball. This is also where the opinion of the referee comes into play. What you may think is a push, other people will say no, and that is the beauty of the game. What you want is the referee to consistantly call it a push or not for the grey area situations in a game. What frustrates players the most is when it is called for one team and not the other. If I call a push or handball or other specific foul against one team and they get upset with me, I may remind them I called the same thing against the other team earlier in the game. I never have any problems. If I book a player for not being 10 yards away from the free kick, and I do it again against the other team later, the players from both teams will have more trust and respect and will have a better game.
As to your consistant infractions. If the referee consistantly does NOT call that situation a push, then there is little you can do but accept it. If the referee does call it a push and calls it over and over and over again, then he needs to book some players for PI.
For me, I will warn the player after 2 marginal infractions in a half, the 3rd time at any point after that is a card, the 4th is a send off. If I made a mistake and called it or not called it, I would call the next foul as a foul I would put the last one out of my head. Very very few referees keep track of all the fouls committed by all of the players because of the stupid subsitution rules in High School. It is much easier in college and pro games where players are limited to the number of times they can be on the field, but when two full teams of over 40 players can sub at will it is hard to keep that straight, which is why you hardly ever see a card for PI.
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Rule Question: Free kicks: If 10 yards is not asked by the player taking the free kick and the ref does not tell the player to back up 10 yards, can a player receive a yellow card for encroachment?
Absolutely, in fact when I do a game, the first time that happens I book the player, and I never have a problem after that. Being said, you must use some common sense, if a player is 7-8 yards from the ball and only needs to walk back a few steps that is ok. However a player by now should know that 1-5 yards away is not 10, especially if they are on a marked football field!
Players at all levels (NCAA, FIFA and high school) are REQUIRED to give 10 yards, if they fail to do so, whether it is asked for or not, they can be booked.
Please tell me that you do not actually give a card without providing a verbal warning for all to see. This devalues the card given, and does NOT achieve what you think it does. This is an attempt to control a game with cards rather than allowing for a fair game to go on....there is a major difference there!
There are times to give a card directly without a "talking to", but giving 10 yards is not one of them.
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Rule Question: Free kicks: If 10 yards is not asked by the player taking the free kick and the ref does not tell the player to back up 10 yards, can a player receive a yellow card for encroachment?
Absolutely, in fact when I do a game, the first time that happens I book the player, and I never have a problem after that. Being said, you must use some common sense, if a player is 7-8 yards from the ball and only needs to walk back a few steps that is ok. However a player by now should know that 1-5 yards away is not 10, especially if they are on a marked football field!
Players at all levels (NCAA, FIFA and high school) are REQUIRED to give 10 yards, if they fail to do so, whether it is asked for or not, they can be booked.
Please tell me that you do not actually give a card without providing a verbal warning for all to see. This devalues the card given, and does NOT achieve what you think it does. This is an attempt to control a game with cards rather than allowing for a fair game to go on....there is a major difference there!
There are times to give a card directly without a "talking to", but giving 10 yards is not one of them.
I look at that this way. Usually when I give a card for failing to give the 10 yards, the player already knows they should be 10 yards away because the first thing out of their mouth is something like "You are supposed to warn me first to give 10 yards."
Really? You know enough to tell me that you know you need to give 10 yards already but you chose not to do it because I need to warn you first. I don't think so.
Now if the player is far enough way that I only have to back them up a few steps then no card, I am talking about the kid who walks right up to the ball and is only a few feet to a few yards away.
You are splitting hairs here...10 yards is still 10 yards....it is better just to give the one verbal warning so everyone can hear so that you don't cause yourself problems later in the game...just my 2 cents worth....
It's really quite simple. During the pre-game meeting with the captains, you TELL them that the 10-yard rule will be enforced with ONE warning, followed thereafter by cards for OBVIOUS non-compliance. Each team gets one warning ONLY. And you make sure the coaches get the message.
If you REALLY want that to eliminate the dawdling and encroachment, you make the penalty a yellow card to the head coach of the offending team.
Backscreen, totally agree and that was the practice I followed when I did ref. It is amazing, especially after they see that first yellow, how quickly the players start following the rules!
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Backscreen, totally agree and that was the practice I followed when I did ref. It is amazing, especially after they see that first yellow, how quickly the players start following the rules!
.. if that is the rule (and I am not saying it is not), why then does the team taking the free kick have to ask for 10 yards??
Because referees that are seasoned know that it is much easier to let the players ask for it to not interrupt the flow of play on a quick restart....
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It's really quite simple. During the pre-game meeting with the captains, you TELL them that the 10-yard rule will be enforced with ONE warning, followed thereafter by cards for OBVIOUS non-compliance. Each team gets one warning ONLY. And you make sure the coaches get the message.
If you REALLY want that to eliminate the dawdling and encroachment, you make the penalty a yellow card to the head coach of the offending team.
Ahh the captains.
99% of the time captains do not care at all about what you say in your pre-game talk to them, they never go back to the team and tell them what you said. All they care about is who gets the ball and what side they have first. In my games, I call them together, shake hands, and just tell the away captain to call the toss. That's it. There is no obligation in the rules for the captain to tell their teammates what to do or what not to do, and often times the biggest pain on a team is one of the captains. Twenty years ago when I first did high school games, I had a fight break out between two captains at the coin toss.
Verbal warnings for obvious encroachment are unnecessary also. If I have to give a warning for that, I have to give a warning for every type of foul and misconduct before I penalize for it. Players who play the game are expected to know the rules. Just Donovan McNabb about overtime.
Also you can only give the coach a card for bench misconduct or misconduct you can not attribute to a player. An AR running down the line gets spit on by a player he does not see on the bench, the coach gets the red.
Aargy...what it that you actually enjoy about officiating high school soccer?
arrgy: Who administers the captains meeting? You. So set the tone. Make clear your position, and TELL the captains to inform their coaches. As for carding the coach, the original statement was meant to imply a rule CHANGE. Sorry that wasn't clear.
Backscreen,
Next time you are on an airplane, pay attention to all of the pre-flight announcements that are made prior to take off.
Same old story, heard it once, heard it a thousand times. In one ear and out the other.
to back up arrgy & hursts point. if you ask most experienced middle & high school teachers what your teen is thinking, the correct answer is usually nothing.
Doesn't mean we stop encouraging them to think. We're as responsible for our part as they are for theirs, and any negligence of their responsibility doesn't absolve us of ours. We are the adults, after all, or so we pride ourselves in thinking.
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Doesn't mean we stop encouraging them to think. We're as responsible for our part as they are for theirs, and any negligence of their responsibility doesn't absolve us of ours. We are the adults, after all, or so we pride ourselves in thinking.
yes, i agree & i don't get the negativity towards arrgy, i really think everyones on the same wavelength all things considered.
real life meet theory....adjust. 
As someone who has coached high school-aged kids -- boys and girls, in a variety of public and private school settings -- I can tell you that communication is NEVER a problem for those adults who do so with respect. In theory, the kids selected as captains are chosen for a reason: their leadership skills, ability to communicate with officials, responsibility, etc. For an adult to simply ASSUME they can't or won't listen clarifies the issue entirely. Why even have referees if you assume the kids just won't listen?
What a lousy attitude for a responsible adult to take.
As a father, of a daughter, who toes the line as a captain... If you tell them their team will get a card for xy and or z, which is not the normal stuff, she/they will tell their team.
Since the 10 yard thing is never a straight card, give them the chance to communicate that.
i forgot this is a humorless thread for extremest.
carry on.
Extremist no, not really.
Refs adding confusion and inconsitency to the game is no joke.
Arrgy dropping a straight yellow on a kid with no warning does not help the game when 98 out of 100 other games this does not happen. It is that simple.
I agree with It Is....I address the captains usually with humor during the pre-game expectations that are given. I always tell them to do their best, play till they hear the whistle, play with good sportsmanship, etc...but there are a few things that I don't tolerate, and I explain those. Dissent, taunting and anything that borderlines on racist comments or actions. I jokingly ask if they have ever argued with a referee and won that argument. Most usually say no, and I tell them that it just gets annoying. But if there is a legitimate question about what I saw, I have no problems explaining a call to a captain that asks. I also make sure to tell them that there might be a time or two during the game that something might happen that causes me to get blocked from a call, and that it happens sometimes, but that it will not be intentional in any way shape or form.
I find that being honest with the kids makes it a much better game in the long run.
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Aargy...what it that you actually enjoy about officiating high school soccer?
I think it is time for Arrgy to do everybody a favor and retire. Sounds like that would solve a lot of problems. 
All I ask for is consistency through out the year. For example, I was told in one game that the half cannot end on a set play (i.e. corner kick) but 10 games later I am told it can.
Mann versus Boiling Springs, crew
Do they teach refs, that you can not be off side on your side? I think that is what the line in the middle is for, but I may be wrong.
For the exception of a PK, the half or game ends when the clock hits all zeros. It does not matter if it is a corner, goal kick, free kick, the ball is in the air, etc. It ends when it ends, this is true for H.S. and college when a stadium clock is used.
Are any high school games boys are girls having 3 refs anymore these days. Have not seen any games in Lancaster County are York County that have. First time this year seen 3 refs was at the CUP this past week.
Had one crew tell our time keeper, this year, to start and stop the clock, and let it run to the horn. Said it was a SCHSL rule, and it was supposed to be the offical time.
We have for years had a running clock and killed it at 2:00 or there abouts.
Which one is right?
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Are any high school games boys are girls having 3 refs anymore these days. Have not seen any games in Lancaster County are York County that have. First time this year seen 3 refs was at the CUP this past week.
Pretty sure every Fort Mill home game this year has had 3 refs, and from what I remember most of the away games too. I know the NaFo FM game was two ref but I think they were supposed to have three at that one too.
Have to check with Hurst but I almost positive he had 3 refs for every game of the Fort Mill Invit Tourny.
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Are any high school games boys are girls having 3 refs anymore these days. Have not seen any games in Lancaster County are York County that have. First time this year seen 3 refs was at the CUP this past week.
You haven't been to very many games. All varsity games in Lancaster and York counties use the 3 referee system with the exception of Andrew Jackson home games and that was at their request. Something to do with the AD making each sport financially responsible for their expenses. I quess their soccer program doesn't generate enough revenue to pay a 3rd official. AJ's jv team doesn't use SCHSL certified officials either.
Strange then game Monday night at Batesburg Leesville only had 2 refs.
Greenville Girls have been doing fundraisers so they can absorb the extra cost for a third official in every home game.
Unfortunately, all our opponents this season seem to be content with the 2-man system.
I agree the three man system is better...
However, when a ref sees something right in front of him, and does not make a call, two or three it makes no difference.
Dormans keeper is out near the edge of her box, 10 yards from the ref, our forward gets the ball on her foot, the keeper puts her in a bear hug around the waist... no call. Are you kidding me?
She came out of the box punting three times.. no call same dude.
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Strange then game Monday night at Batesburg Leesville only had 2 refs.
BL is not in York or Lancaster county.