Preseason rankings are due soon and I've taken a look back at the top performing programs over the last three years. Top spots are held by those ranked in all three, then two of three, then only one. Tie breakers go - state championships, state championship appearances, lowest ranking, and most recent ranking.
Final Ranking in 3 of 3 years
1. Wando 3.3 average finishing place, 1 SC
2. Irmo 4.0 1 SCA
3. Fort Mill 4.7 1 SCA
4. Lexington 4.7 1 SCA (lowest ranking 9th vs FM's 7th)
5. Dorman 5.0 1 SC
6. Mauldin 6.0
7. West Ashley 7.7 1 SC
8. Summerville 7.7 (highest low ranking, but WA has SC)
9. James Island 10.0
10. Spring Valley 10.7
Final Ranking 2 of 3 years
11. Dutch Fork 7.0
12. Byrnes 11.0
13. T.L. Hanna 11.0 (most recent 13 vs Byrnes 9)
14. Spartanburg 12.5
Rankings 1 out of 3 years
15. South Aiken 7.0
16. Richland Northeast 10
17. Wren 14.0
18. Aiken 14.0 (Wren most recent ranking)
19. Northwestern 15.0
To think that Wando, West Ashley, Summerville and James Island were once in the same region is scary.
It would be nice to line them up in an eight-team tournament with Dorman, Mauldin, Spartanburg and Byrnes.
I don't remember S-ville being in the same region. How long ago was that? If you're right...geez, that would be a bad day for some region.
p.s. I check "Who is online" a good bit and see people reading these threads. I hope more will register and chat so you and I don't have to go back and forth so often...not that you're not great company and all
Heh...believe me, having Wando, West Ashley and James Island all in one region was plenty for the rest of us!
I'm probably wrong about Summerville........but Coach Chass is right.
you still in the great white northeast hurst.
Still in Long Island, coming home late this afternoon.
Come on, Hurst. Fort Mill in the top 3? No thoughts or comments? You sound like some other Lou Holtz guy I know who always underplays his team!
There's probably about eight teams in 4A that can win the girl's state championship this year.
This is much more competitive than the the boy's 4A, where the consensus seems to be that no more than two or three teams are in the running for the state title.
I agree. Wando is carrying a lot of momentum, but other than that it seems to be anyone's game. I wonder who will be the media darling this year and break through into the top 15. Clover was the talk in '07 and it was good to see a fresh face.
Clover will be even better this year than they were last year. Definitely a top 15 team in 2008.
Spring Valley is always hanging around the Top 10 with a .500 record and a very strong schedule. This year I think Spring Valley steps up and improves both their record and their final ranking.
But this year's "darling" will be Dutch Fork. They are certainly back after getting the death penalty and their roster is stacked. They will be mentioned in the same breath this season with the heavyweights. They are my pick to start strong and win the Viking Cup.
Ahhhhhhhh, DF did look good last year! I've heard SV is going to take it's top 10 status and move it to top 5 from a very reliable, but ugly, source. Yes, that's right, I called you ugly. Anyway, i'd like to see Drew and that West Ashley bunch go on another tear. There a sentimental favorite thanks in part to lapf.
I see Byrnes as the sleeper for 2008. They have a strong core returning with a good coach. I heard they may have picked up another premier league player this year. Mauldin only lost 2 seniors from last years team and they should give Dorman a run for the region title. Dorman will be strong with several senior players to lead the team. Once again the Region II 4A will be tough.
Who will the Viking Cup curse claim this year?
Region II will be the strongest region in the state this season.
......and where is the daughter of the new Wofford men's coach going to attend school this spring? Very good player could be dropping into some Region II school's lap.
We've only hit the AAAA schools. Anybody with some AAA tidbits?
Well the topic is Top AAAA Programs......
Riverside will be without their 4 year starter at keeper and the number two scorer from last year. Eastside had alot of seniors on last years team but will still be in the hunt. Greenville is coming on but maybe a couple of years before the can challenge for the upperstate. JL Mann has a new high school this year and I am sure rezoning will bring them some new players. I still believe Eastside and Riverside are two best teams in the upperstate.
Did any of the top female players in the state enter college early?
Dutch Fork didn't lose many seniors and keep a large core of last years starters. They've got some talent moving up to varsity who should be able to complement and support the upperclass. I predict they'll be in the thick of it all.
FOS, all discussions are welcome and yours is certainly welcome!
Hurst,
clover will certainly contend with FM for the regional championship, BUT do they have enough depth (or the ability to develop some) to do much in the playoffs? You can't win a state title with 11. Do they have anybody else? And can their coach develop any of her subs into servicable role players to give the starters a break??? But, Clover can definately beat any team in the state not in the top 10.
Sounds like a challenge for Northwestern. Didn't they split last year and NW take the 2nd seed? Is Clover good enough to leap from 3rd in the region to 1st? Didn't they lose every match against a ranked opponent (Fort Mill twice, 3A Airport, and Irmo)?
Not a hater, just getting the discussional juices going!
Clover should be favored over Northwestern in Region 3 this year but Cantona can keep his team in any game by playing tough defense.
Cid, I don't know the answers to all of your questions concerning Clover. I will say, however, that I don't think it's the job of the high school coach to "develop" her players. She only has her players for three months out of the year. It's up to them to put the work in during the other nine months so that they can be in a position to make a solid contribution to the varsity team.
That is a big, AND I MEAN BIG, amen. Hurst, post of the month to you my friend.
Hurst,
I agree to a point.
You are right that a HS coach doesn't develop their players, but they do put in a system and develop the system. FM plays the same way var and JV and just plugs in nex players each year. Granted, they are getting better in the offseason with club, but they know what is expected of them with their HS.
My question was more about whether or not Clover has the ability to best use what they have and find "roles" for their weaker players to be successful at. Northwestern got beat up by Clover in game 1 and Cantona made adjustment and won the second game. Can Clover do that???
Also, is Clover pushing their players to get better in the offseason?? That would be the big question. My argument is "are they placing all of their hopes on the starting 11?" What happens with an injury? Are the "non-starters" being pushed to get better or are they just "along for the ride"? If it is the latter, that is the coaches problem.
cid,
You appear to be a lot closer to the Clover program than I am......you tell me.
Not too many teams in South Carolina are eleven deep with high-level club players. Depth is a problem that most schools will have to overcome. That's what makes the Wando's, Lexington's, Dorman's and Dutch Fork's stand above the rest.
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Cid, I don't know the answers to all of your questions concerning Clover. I will say, however, that I don't think it's the job of the high school coach to "develop" her players. She only has her players for three months out of the year. It's up to them to put the work in during the other nine months so that they can be in a position to make a solid contribution to the varsity team.
Let me start this out with a deep bow of respect to two of our most venerable posters, Hurst and W&E. Don't take this badly, guys, but this is the first time I've ever had occasion to strongly disagree with both of you at the same time.
It's probably a product of WHERE I've coached throughout my career--I've never really worked in a "soccer area" at a "soccer school," so I've never had the luxury of having someone else train and develop all of my players for me and hand them to me ready to go at the beginning of varsity season. Of course, we're working on getting as many as possible involved in club and other opportunities during the non-varsity seasons, but in some areas like mine, club (and even rec) soccer is seen as a luxury most don't have, not an expected way of life. If I had to depend only on players who were club-trained to put on the field this year, I would have...um, let's see...let me do the math...two. And I coached their club team this past season as well. Bottom line is, for the vast majority of my players, if I don't develop them, it doesn't happen--and I suspect I'm not the only high school varsity coach in the state with that situation. The minute I put my nose in the air and say, "Well, it's not MY job to develop them," we go right back to the days of a few years ago when the team was getting blown out 15-0 on a regular basis. No, thank you. I'll take my three months with them and work with them as hard as we can...if they're not "ready" at the beginning of the season, then the goal is to develop as we play and finish the season strong in region play when it counts most. Granted, I'm not in a position to be gunning for a state or even a region championship at this point--Wando and James Island might have something to say about that--but even if I were, and even if all of my players had outside training in the off season, I don't see how that would excuse me from the responsibility of using MY three months to bring my players along as much as possible instead of saying, "Well, that's who showed up; that's what I'm stuck with."
I think it's the responsibility of a head coach to be able to use ALL of the resources at his/her disposal to the greatest effect to benefit the team. By refusing to take the time and effort to develop players who may be on the edge of becoming assets, the coach is showing himself to be either unwilling or incapable of taking advantage of those resources. If you can only see the player who shows up under your nose in January instead of being able to spot the player who CAN BE with the right training and encouragement, you're missing out on some good players.
Another thing I've found is that players tend to be more invested when they're with the people who helped to build and develop them. On what grounds can I ask one of my players to go out and play her heart out for me if I've had little or nothing to do with making her into the player I expect to see on the field? Investment goes both ways. Of course you're right--if players want their teams to be successful, it IS their responsibility to work during the other nine months in order to be ready to contribute in the spring. But I think the coach needs to be equally invested during those three months to make the most possible impact--not just expect the players to do the work in the off season, point them to their assigned positions on the field, and win him credit for a championship. Even those players who show up "ready" to win a championship could possibly become even better with some development from their high school coach--provided, of course, that the high school coach has the ability to actually develop them further.
Webster's Online defines a "Coach" as:
Noun
1. (sports) someone in charge of training an athlete or a team.
Verb
1. Teach and supervise (someone); act as a trainer or coach (to), as in sports; "He is training our Olympic team"; "She is coaching the crew".
The Occupational Dictionary defines the job:
Analyzes performance and instructs PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES (amuse. & rec.) in game strategies and techniques to prepare them for athletic competition: Observes players while they perform to determine need for individual or team improvement. Coaches players individually or in groups, demonstrating techniques of sport coached. Oversees daily practice of players to instruct them in areas of deficiency. Determines strategy during game, independently or in conference with other COACH, PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES (amuse. & rec.) or HEAD COACH (amuse. & rec.) based on factors as weakness in opposing team. May be designated according to phase of game coached as Defensive-Line Coach (amuse. & rec.); Pitching Coach (amuse. & rec.). May be designated according to game coached as Basketball Coach (amuse. & rec.); Football Coach (amuse. & rec.); Swimming Coach (amuse. & rec.); Tennis Coach (amuse. & rec.).
or:
One who instructs or trains. . . players in the fundamentals of a competitive sport and directs team strategy. Source: European Union.
Hm...instructs...trains...teaches...fundamentals...analyzes performance...determines the need for individual and team improvement...all sounds suspiciously like developing players to me. Which brings me to the final question--why bother giving someone the title of high school "coach" if it's not their responsibility to...well...
...coach?
Sorry 'bout the soapbox, guys...maybe you could tell, but player development is something I feel pretty strongly about. I agree completely that a high school coach can't do it all in three months--to be successful, the players have to take responsibility for the off-season development--but I think it IS the coach's responsibility DURING those three months to do all he or she can instead of shuffling players off just because they didn't show up already meeting standards.
Feel free to return fire.
unfortunately hurst, I am not. I am going off of what I have been told by some friends in the area. I was only able to get up to the York area for the second game that was played against NW and FM. It was at that time I was given info about the 1st games. I was just trying to figure out how you almost beat FM and then get run over in the second game. That to me looks like either the FM coach is Brilliant (and I do hear that he is a great coach) and makes great adjustments. or that the clover coach didn't adjust anything. OR a combination of the 2. I agree with Chass that it is the coaches responsibility to find depth or create it. I think that if a club team didn't develop it's non-starters over a 3 month season(i.e. the spring or fall), that club coach may not be the coach for very long. Besides playing club, what do Wando, Lex., etc do to create a more competitive environment that a Clover could do? Or, better yet, Clover has money (which has been discussed at length on here). why aren't all of the clover kids pushed toward playing club? Once again, developing the program begins with developing the youth in the community through club, doesn't it???
Plain and simple, different programs have different goals.
Some HS programs (and even clubs) are geared more towards player development. Some are geared towards "W"s and championships.
And there are a handful of teams out there that are caught in the middle - especially in prep soccer.
With only minimal knowledge of Clover, it seems to me that they are a program on the rise. But as the powers on both sides of the ball in all classifications will tell you - the key is consistency. It doesn't happen over night..and it doesn't happen over three months.
Of course, once the system and tradition are in place..then it is a whole different game. Etc...
Chass (bow returned)
When I started at Hanna, we had a core of five or six club players. We found an old club charter and got our players involved. Along came ASA and we transferred our status there as it was more structured. The ambitious players moved to CESA in Greenville and from there the program has turned self sustaining with parents who have put in a lot of time and money (shout out to my former parents who made the program work!).
When dealing with soccer at a top 20ish level, you have to have the club players to make it go. If a parent is hoping their team can compete with the likes of Ft. Mill year in and year out - while having few club players to rely on...yikes. It's not going to happen. My comments were directed to address the over zealous hopes that magic will occur and the program will take off regardless of the other nine months of the season are spent. You play soccer to get better at soccer and since HS coaches are restricted in that area...it might fall on the family's shoulders.
It takes more work in my opinion to get a team off the ground than it does to take it from mid table to top 15. You should be commended for your efforts. It would be easy to interview and take another job in a soccer rich environment, but sticking it out and having to really, really work to keep them at that level takes guts. Take a look at what Ryan Roseberry has done at Westside.
Now, looking at Clover and evaluating what the coach has been doing brings us to this:
2005 6-8 (according to website)
2006 8-6
2007 13-5
I'm not a genius but that looks like progress to me. Lets not forget they were also in their transitional year from AAA to AAAA. You have a near .500 record in 3A, move to 4A, take Ft. Mill to OT, split with NW (losing at NW in pks), and lose by 2 to #4 Irmo in the playoffs.
I don't think she's making chicken salad from chicken feathers, but looks like she's doing one fine job of work in South Carolina and I hear she is going to be rewarded for it. Face it, sometimes fans can see program X over here and wish they could have the same thing. Even coaches see ODP and premier level players and think "what if?". These things take time. Sure, the kids could spend less time having lives and train more, the parents could vacation/tithe less and pay for private lessons/summer camps/high level far away clubs, and the coach could spend less time at home and more time planning every spare moment for maximum efficiency.
I'd imagine those kids, parents, and coaches are working hard over there. One could 2nd guess and complain, or do something about it. Like I told a parent 3 years ago after several failed attempts for increased playing time: "It's obvious you and your child aren't happy playing here. I don't want to see you unhappy so maybe you should go find another team."
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unfortunately hurst, I am not. I am going off of what I have been told by some friends in the area. I was only able to get up to the York area for the second game that was played against NW and FM. It was at that time I was given info about the 1st games. I was just trying to figure out how you almost beat FM and then get run over in the second game. That to me looks like either the FM coach is Brilliant (and I do hear that he is a great coach) and makes great adjustments. or that the clover coach didn't adjust anything. OR a combination of the 2. I agree with Chass that it is the coaches responsibility to find depth or create it. I think that if a club team didn't develop it's non-starters over a 3 month season(i.e. the spring or fall), that club coach may not be the coach for very long. Besides playing club, what do Wando, Lex., etc do to create a more competitive environment that a Clover could do? Or, better yet, Clover has money (which has been discussed at length on here). why aren't all of the clover kids pushed toward playing club? Once again, developing the program begins with developing the youth in the community through club, doesn't it???
If a nonranked team loses to Fort Mill in OT, what coach in his right mind is going to change it all!!!!! AHHHHHHHAAAAAAHAAAAHAHAAAHAAAA!!!! Lord I wish I only got "run over" 3 to 5 by some of those Mauldin and Hillcrest teams in the early 2000's!!! Two goals, geeeez!! I used to think the Lexington fans had high expectations, but they are humble compared to this!!!
Oh, and I'm sure that coach is telling the kids not to play club because that would make them better and "we don't want that".
It's getting deep in here folks...
Coach chass,
Good point. I had no intention of diminishing the contribution of the high school coach. You are correct, your situation is different from the one that cid and I referenced. In your situation, you have to do all you can with your kids. In certain other school districts, the players spend a good part of their nine-month "off season" with hired guns.....playing on high-level teams.
Your point about "investment" is very good. That's the real secret, not just for your program, but for the most competitive teams in the state as well. Getting your players to think "school first" and "team first", from February through May is critical. The teams that buy into what their high school coach is serving, really have a great chance of playing a few more games in May.
Cid, how do you only "make it up to York area to see FM and NW", but know so much about Clover soccer. You have a friend or two in the area, but are just hammering what's being done there. Axe to grind? Disgruntled parent? I mean, one could only look at these post to see she has done something to you and yours. Are you one of the forgotten 11 she is supposively not developing? Look at these derrogatory post:
Why worry about Clover:
http://www.scsoccer.com/forum/showflat.p...=true#Post90066Coach makes weak schedule:
http://www.scsoccer.com/forum/showflat.p...=true#Post89671A more sensitive and reverse stance side of you:
http://www.scsoccer.com/forum/showflat.p...=true#Post90179
Now this time, I agree with everything you said, and with Jack as well. In our case, the first step was to use the "free" high school season to develop the players to the point where they felt like they COULD win, before many of them become willing to put in the extra off-season effort and expense to ensure that they DO win consistently. It's still a building thing, and it will take time. I still think it's a bonding force in a team, though, no matter what the level, when they feel they are working together with their coaches to create success rather than just showing up ready to do a job.
So, I think in order to get the MOST out of a team, it takes both--players who are willing to go the distance in the off season to train and prepare themselves to be ready for varsity season, and varsity coaches who are willing to take the players who show up in late January and BUILD on those skills all season long, so that when playoff time comes, the whole is a lot greater than the sum of the parts that showed up at first practice. There are a lot of intangibles that show up on the field beyond pure skill and athletic ability...when players either do or don't believe in not only what they're doing, but who they're doing it for and with, that's when many of those intangibles start to show up.
And yes, I'd definitely say Clover's on the right track!
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Your point about "investment" is very good. That's the real secret, not just for your program, but for the most competitive teams in the state as well. Getting your players to think "school first" and "team first", from February through May is critical. The teams that buy into what their high school coach is serving, really have a great chance of playing a few more games in May.
Absolutely...I've seen underdog teams play way above the level their skills and experience would seem to indicate just because their hearts were all the way in the game, and I've seen high-level, highly-skilled teams flop because they just didn't seem to want it badly enough. Investment can make a huge difference in just what percentage of a player's actual ability makes it out onto the field.
...and Will, it's not like you have a plethora of equally talented teams in your area. The lower coastal area has large schools with powerful club scenes that really don't help out with the scheduling for a developing team like yours. Make the job that much more admirable.
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Lord I wish I only got "run over" 3 to 5 by some of those Mauldin and Hillcrest teams in the early 2000's!!! Two goals, geeeez!! I used to think the Lexington fans had high expectations, but they are humble compared to this!!!
Heh...yeah, when I get "run over" by Wando, James Island, or West Ashley by 2-3 goals, I call that a win! 
What if a AAAA school had to depend on recreational soccer for its talent pool? What results would you get? Why is important to get club players?
What if the NFL had to draft only kids from the NAIA? What result would you get? Why is it important to get kids from the best feeder program?
I'm not mocking, just going a parallel route. The most competitive leagues produce the most competitive players.
I was hoping someone would go through facts and figures and not be cute. I am working with a club and trying to build a feeder system, but some hard head people think dad's can make top caliber talent. My belief is club players equal wins in the AAAA ranks.
Well if you wanted for people to do all the leg work and research for you so the glory could be all yours, why didn't you say so! I'd start by posting actual questions that require subjective answers instead of broad based queries that could result in infinite objective discussion that would never get you the info you desire in order to show these "hard head people" who is the boss.
To ask a more direct question, instead of conversational question. Does anyone have a correlation between club players and wins. W&E the leg work comes in when you build the feeder like we are, and do the work to do that. The information simply may save a kid from going by the way of recreational soccer, hoping they will do well on the varsity. We are looking for information not a hammer. Everyone has a hammer. Just read the previous blog.
So, Clover did a pretty good job this year. I hope they get a full schedule and snag some tough wins in the region and maybe in a tourney or two. Any chance realignment will bring in a fourth stud team?
In 1 post I asked why they weren't in the top 15 with 14 wins? And yes, I am curious as to why they have a weaker schedule, but, you also forgot to point out that I said "they can beat anyone outside of the top 10". And probably a few in it. I apologize for not traveling up to see them more, but before last year nobody on here talked about them. I do hope that they schedule some tough non-region games and tournaments. I hope they do prove they belong. It would be nice for someone to challenge FM. (And I am sure they would like it.)
Clover has a talented core of 10th graders that have played Club together for a long time. They have some nice 9th graders coming in...and they also have a 10th grader who plays for Charlotte Soccer CLub Blue.
All of their starters are good, solid players and several of them are very, very good players. 1 or 2 maybe exceptional. From a depth perspective they are still light but should be 2-3 deeper than they were last year.
I wish that whole program the best. It's nice to see new programs come up and make the top 15 that much more competitive.
W&E,
Let me attempt to touch my sensitive side within the development of players coversation
1. Players develop the majority of their technical skills before the reach HS. It is that way for all techniques (reading, music, soccer etc.) Although a HS coach can help to improve technique, they most likely aren't going to turn a rec player into Abby Wambach
BUT
2. a HS coach is solely responsible for the tactical approach to the game of their team. even if you have 40 club kids, they will all play different systems. it becomes the HS coach's job to get them on the same page. this is where a team with less technical talent can become competitive. a great coach will be able to take an athletic or smart athlete and fit them into the system. a great athlete can be made into a great marking back if the coach can teach the tactics and technique of 1 v 1 defending. (easier than attacking 1 v 1) I would say that players without great technical skill can flourish if placed in a good tactical scheme (AKA Pablo Mastroeni and Chris Armas, they aren't Zidane but the sure have been taught how to disrupt an offense) a great coach makes adjustments (not major changes W&E) to take advantage of what they have. My example was more of a praise for the NW coach. beat up the first time, tactical changes for the 2nd game resulting in a win. This is where your "role player" development can be rested on the HS coach. developing an athlete into a role within the team tactics.
As far as club player = HS success. I highly doubt if you were to go back and look at the final 8 teams at 4AAAA over that past that any of them had rec players on the varsity or JV for that matter.
As far as record, it does seem to me that a great sophmore class with 1 or 2 exceptional players (Big Daddy) could have alot to do with a huge jump in record. I hope that this program can continue to have a high level of success once that group is graduated. more good HS teams means more good soccer players, which is good for SC.
By the way W&E, is the Clover coach moving up to college? What other kinds of "rewards" can a HS coach be given? Just curious.
My kids go to Nation Ford, not Clover....lest anyone question my interest in Clover.
But my daughter plays Club with a bunch of these girls and we're good friends with these families.
Oops....didn't mean to submit so fast.
With respect to the HS coach who I don't know.....they have gotten better as a team in large part because a big bubble of talent was pulled together years ago by Hurst at Northside....and then further developed with outstanding club coaching from Efrain Tirado.
Thats why Clover has gotten better. Add to that a few key players such as the girl from CSC Blue and also Britta from CESA Challenge....and you have a team on the rise. Last piece of the puzzle are passionate, commited parents. Which Clover now has.
Should be a greatly improved team this year...who will get better and better over the next couple of years.
Cid000000000000000, all those things are great. But you claimed not to have been "up" to the York area save one game, yet your post are heavy, heavy, heavy Clover...about as north as you can get. One would deduce the following:
A) "Up" was misused and you are actually living in Clover, and very disgruntled with the Clover program...although you denied Hurst's question of your closeness (derived only from 'friends' you have in the area) which would then make you a liar. That's not a nice term or label so I would not think this one. Preacher said not to name call and to expect the best out of others. It couldn't be this one (could it?), but I had to list the possibility.
B) You truly are geographically below York and have some prior relationship/experience with the coach which has caused you to make the derrogatory comments.
C) You truly are geographically below York and your dedication to your 'friends' is so strong and devout that you have taken up their disgruntled campaign againt the coach.
Just trying to figure it all out. Maybe there is a D that I've overlooked.
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Once again, developing the program begins with developing the youth in the community through club, doesn't it???
No...developing the program begins with giving the players something worth working for--a REASON to invest the time and money in club season. If you're saying that the purpose of playing club ball is to prepare for varsity--then the first thing you have to do is make sure varsity ball is something the players feel is worth preparing for.
Signing day is in Feb thus making the HS senior season pointless for college bound players that sign...unless they are given a reason as mentioned above. A, B, C, or D
Daddy,
The CSC girl at Clover is a U-16, but I believe she is a junior.
Very nice player who is currently showing off her skills on the basketball court for the Lady Blue Eagles.
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As far as club player = HS success. I highly doubt if you were to go back and look at the final 8 teams at 4AAAA over that past that any of them had rec players on the varsity or JV for that matter.
No real argument that year-round club players make a very real difference on a high school varsity team--there would be something amiss in the universe if three-month players could effectively compete with year-round players--although I do know of contributing players on top-15 varsity teams who have played rec ball due to time and other commitment constraints. Better to play rec ball than have to take fall season off completely, after all. Two of my best club players this fall came from last year's rec team.
Still, that's only part of the equation; if the HS coach doesn't use the talents developed during club season to best advantage, then it's largely wasted. It takes all elements coming together for a team to be its best...credit has to be at least shared with the high school coach who puts it all together into an effective team. Good club players don't automatically result in success unless the person at the HS helm is able to lead them well.
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With respect to the HS coach who I don't know.....they have gotten better as a team in large part because a big bubble of talent was pulled together years ago by Hurst at Northside....and then further developed with outstanding club coaching from Efrain Tirado.
Thats why Clover has gotten better. Add to that a few key players such as the girl from CSC Blue and also Britta from CESA Challenge....and you have a team on the rise. Last piece of the puzzle are passionate, commited parents. Which Clover now has.
Should be a greatly improved team this year...who will get better and better over the next couple of years.
With respect to the aforementioned--whom I don't know personally, but I hear enough good things to respect--I think you also have to give some credit to the coach who puts it all together into something that works. A good high school coach can use talent to its best advantage and bring the best out in players...while a bad one can waste everything. If a HS team is successful, I think we have to give at least part of the credit to the person at the helm.
Amen. A point of view we don't always get in our world of ultra competitive programs. The blue collar coach brings us the truth!
The only difference between Clover.....and York, Lancaster, Rock Hill High.....is the gob of Club players that Clover has.
They are more talented than these other schools, not better coached.
This is NOT an intended gig at their coach. Merely my opinion, based on observation.
Chass,
I agree. I forgot that in the post. That would be the Phil Jackson effect. yes, it would be easy to win with Jordan and Pippen or Kobe and Shaq, but you have to have a coach who can manage the players and the games. So, I do agree.
W&E,
I am lots of things but a liar is not one of them. And after all the talk last year, I figured I would see a couple of competitive games. Just like I went to the Viking cup to see competitive games. I apologize for my apparent ripping of them. I hope they have a great year and challenge FM. Since I apparently offended you, I will not discuss any particular teams anymore.
No offense taken, just coach bashing without rhyme or reason from a self proclaimed casual observer throws up the red flag. Makes one wonder if it's a parent posting anonymously for fear of retaliation against the child...but that's not the case here I see. You know how all that goes. Sorry for the confusion on my part.
I would like to start by thanking Cid for the praises thrown my way.... Things are definitely looking up for Northwestern girls soccer. The number of girls at conditioning is the highest I have had in 4 years with the program. Not many club players but still good young athletes that have the potential to develop into players.
In my opinion it is the responsibility of the coach to develop what they are given in the 4 month season. Some of us are not as fortunate to have a group of girls playing club ball year round. I have chosen to focus on coaching my son during the club season instead of high school girls.
Northwestern will have a roster of 22 players, about half have only played Futbol a year or less. But as stated earlier, they are athletes that can be worked with to field a very competitive squad.
No need to worry. And I apologize for the bashing. Just want to see some more quality soccer in SC. Good luck Cantona, that region is getting tougher by the year.
I agree, It is nice to stay close to home and get quality mathes.
I think we're talking about a couple of different things here:
1. Top 4A schools
2. Correlation/importance between success (wins) and having a roster full of club players versus non-club players.
3. Role of development for a coach in high school.
IMO, there is no way you can be considered a top 4A school without having a roster full of quality club players. Unlike 5 man basketball where having one Baby Shaq on the court can totally alter a game....11 man soccer requires depth as well. A team with 2-3 very, very good players and 2-3 very average players....a good coach will identify and exploit the marginal players. So, to be at the top of the heap competitively...you better have quality at every position. Don't have to be superstars....but you need to be a good solid player, at the least.
So this kind of takes care of points 1 and 2. To be a top prgoram you need a good solid base of club players....along with good coaching and a couple of superstars. But it starts with having that base.
Last point has to do with development. If you coach at a school with 13-15 club players on your roster, individual player development is probably lower on the totem pole. A statement that I'm sure is anathema to every coach out there...all of whom profess development to be a core objective. And it is...to a point. But if you are a top 5 / top 10 program its probably a whole lot more important to teach tactics, fitness, and that you be a solid, creative game coach.
For schools like ours (Nation Ford), where we have maybe 6-8 club players on the boys side and the girls side.....the role of a good coach will quite naturally HAVE to be more about development. Out of necessaity....not for some lofty goal, but because you have to.
We will be like Cantona....with a bunch of athletic and competitve kids who wouldn't know a push pass from a bounce pass. To be a reasonable team.....we're going to have to focus more on individual technical skills becasue without those you can't do any of the tactical work that you might like to do.
For coaches like this....be they in Rock Hill, CLover, Fort Mill or the lower part of the State.....the trick will be...to a casual observer, can you turn a non-Club player, into one who kind of looks like a Club player by the end of the season. Are there kids....who played little role on the team at the beginning who have earned significant minutes by the end of the season.
If the answer at Rock Hill and CLover and Nation Ford is yes....then the coaches have done a great job, regardless of wins and losses.
(applause)
Great summary!
I've held on to two bits of advice I've received from two different coaches that have helped during my practices.
1) Kris Long (formerly of Irmo and Sburg) told me she hammers around 30 minutes of individual/technical work in every session. The better the players, the better the team. I conditioned, hit technical quickly, then went into small sided games and then long 11 v 11 scrimmages. Fantastic advice.
2) Ryan Roseberry (afore mentioned coach of Westside girls) shared some info from his licensing classes. If you are working on crossing, comment on crossing. Don't try to critique dribbling, volleys or finishing if the focus of the drill is on crossing. Keeps things simple and gives you more coaching efficiency in the desired area.
Quote:
As far as club player = HS success. I highly doubt if you were to go back and look at the final 8 teams at 4AAAA over that past that any of them had rec players on the varsity or JV for that matter.
I'm not so sure it boils down to quite such simple terms...the level of team a person plays on (rec vs. classic vs. challenge, for example) doesn't NECESSARILY indicate the absolute ability level of the player. Of course, that's the natural way to bet--after all, players who get spots on high-level teams must have exhibited enough skill to outmatch the competition and earn those positions--but there are some excellent players out there who, due to constraints those of us who ONLY look at the world in soccer terms are sometimes unaware of, either choose not to or are unable to participate on
challenge-level teams.
I've coached U-17 and U-18 Classic teams over the last two seasons, and two of my best players on the U-18 team this past season came from last year's rec squad. They had skill, but even more, they had determination and heart, and they enjoyed what they do and put everything into the game. When it came to getting the job done on the field--and I say this with no offense to anyone on the higher-level team--I wouldn't have traded either of them for my choice of players from the challenge team.
A player who comes from a rec team with a conscientious coach (not just a space-filler) with a good attitude and a love of the game can not only arrive on a team ready to contribute, but can also be further developed into an even greater player. I think I'm very lucky to have a rec coach on my high school staff who loves the game, helps to instill that love of the game into the players, and puts his all very conscientiously into player development.
Again, I'm not saying that the AVERAGE rec player can compete ability-wise with the AVERAGE challenge player, or that the AVERAGE rec coach's training is on par with the AVERAGE high-level club trainer. What I am saying is that there are exceptions (and exceptional people) who don't fit into the convenient hierarchical pigeonholes we use to oversimplify our view of the world...so to say that there are NO "rec players" worthy of membership on final-8 AAAA teams seems a little extreme.
I've met them.
Big Daddy...I'll agree with W&E...nicely stated.
I do agree. Which goes back to my point that a great coach can do alot with less talent simply because that coach is able to find a "role" for those "rec" players. That would go back to the development arguement. I do agree that there are alot of "rec" players who, because of circumstances outside of their control, cannot play club. There are ALWAYS exceptions to the rules. I am just curious if anyone has the ability to find out how many "rec" players have been on final 8 teams?
I will say this. We often overlook great coaches who "do more with less". These are the people who are really getting kids to love the sport of soccer. And these are the people who should be highly considered for coach of the year honors.
While I'll agree with you cid....remember that the primary premise of this thread was top 4A programs in the state.
A coach that turns non-soccer players into soccer players has done a good job....but its highly unlikely you'll mention his/her team in a discussion of top teams statewide.
Teams loaded with non players, rec players, and even classic players...are unlikely to be in a top 5 ranking for 4A schools.
Teams with a lot of kids from CESA Premier or Challenge, Bridge Gold, CUFC Elite, Mount Pleasant/Summerville or Lexington or Tega Cay/Charlotte kids.....those are the teams that are likely to be at the top of the heap.
No argument there, BD...but then, the teams with a lot of kids from the top club programs AND a high school coach who knows how to get the most out of them...those are the teams that will hit the top of the top. Doesn't matter how great the available ingredients are, it still takes a skilled cook to make a top-notch meal. I don't think a team will be noted for greatness JUST because they have a full roster of top club players. You may not be able to make top 5 without them, but there's no guarantee you will make top 5 WITH them, either. No matter how essential club training may be for top ranking, you still can't give the clubs the ENTIRE credit for a HS team's success.
Good point Coach Chass. I don't think any 4A girls team has ever won a state championship with anything less than a very competent coach.
I totally agree. To be a top 3-4 program you need good solid players at every position, depth, 2-3 great players, a very good coach, and luck.
Teams loaded with very good players without structure will underachieve all the time.
I do have a question. When we talk about top 10 teams, are speaking about during the season or the final rankings? Are we talking about tournament success or regular season success?
Just curious what you all think.
Teams listed in the final rankings (top 15) the past two years is who I generally reserve for my comments.
What do you think W&E...... are you going to make the 15 list?
The girls and coaches voted and we decided to wait on Northwestern to crack it open before we slip in.
p.s. I put you at #6 when Kyle asked for our thoughts.
I tell you what, lets make a wager. The coach who is fortunate enough to crack the 15 list first, owes the other a cold beverage
Deal. And one more for each week they hold their place. You can go ahead and start your payments this Friday at the Clariton
From what I've read on the board, we need to be making the wager with the Clover coach.
I going to try and hoodoo the guy from Dorman. I hear he's not too bright and would probably agree to it.
Northwestern, T.L. Hanna, Ridge View, James Island, Wren, and Clover are all hovering on that 13-15 spot. Lots of flipping and flopping to be going on.