Another bittersweet day at state finals for Woodruff.
I won't belabor, but I have to take a moment to say that I would suspect that most people familiar with Woodruff considered last year the last anyone would see of Woodruff.
The team lost well over 200 goals and over 100 assists embodied by three quality seniors after 2007.
The accomplishments of this year's team speaks volumes about the players, Coaches Gomez and Fran Thomas, the school/district, and, for the second year in a row, the largest crowd from the city of Woodruff.
Every person associated with Woodruff will treasure the shot hitting the back of the net today, our first score in the state finals.
Woodruff will be back.
Lots of Freshman on that team, two, all state players, plus several more, and a hurd of very good U14, and U13 coming behind them, Fernando coaches the U13s, getting them ready to take care of business, for him later. I really like the warrior spirit, of the Wolverines. The future looks bright... the girls should hold their heads up!!!!
BE was a size match physically for the Mauldin girls, the larger team in stature of the AAAA match. I guess they grow them big wherever BE is, or wherever they draw from.
Once again, two years in a row, Woodruff is the public school state champion in AA/A girls soccer!
Great job!
(No, I will not let this go; look at the boys side. . .Unfair is unfair. . .and if unfair impacted more important sports or larger schools. . .well. . .)
cc - i was hoping that woodruff would win. maybe schsl will move be up to 3a. how many years is this for be winning 2a title? if it was bb or football schsl would have long ago moved them out of 2a. why don't they play in the private school league?
I give Woodruff a ton of credit. The first time I saw them was three years ago when FM had their way with them in the Byrnes tournament. Since then, their coach has done a fantastic job building these girls into a competitive team.
However, I don't want anyone to mistake Woodruff for one of the schools along "the corridor of shame". I've seen enough of "the poverty index" and "the little country school" and "the limited access to club soccer".
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Woodruff less than 20 miles from CESA's MeSA Complex? Don't some of their girls play high-level club soccer? Don't they have players on the ODP team? Don't they have players on college soccer rosters?
There are players who need to travel 2 hours or better to get to CESA....is Woodruff really at a disadvantage?
cradle:
Country = land, land is money,Last time I checked it was the affluent that live in the country on their farms. Bet you could pay for a lot of club dues with the cost of a big new John Deer.
Hurst and others:
If you didn't notice my other posts:
Of the six girls teams alive for the state championship, five are public and four are in the top 13 most affluent schools in the state; two are from Greenville County:
Riverside; 3/210; 17
Wando; 8/210; 26
Mauldin; 9/210; 26
Hilton Head; 13/210; 31
Woodruff; 74/210; 55
RELATIVELY speaking, Woodruff has less affluence than other schools who are at the top each year. And compared to BE. . .well. . .no comparison. Still Woodruff is just below the top 1/3 of affluent schools.
To Hurst's Q: Not sure what your point is, but Woodruff players do play club; many past and present have had success at club, high school, and college. I would argue that these accomplishments are even more laudable when you compare Woodruff to BE, CC, and other schools with unfair advantages.
And to your last Q, Hurst, YES, Woodruff has an unfair disadvantage to PRIVATE schools.
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Once again, two years in a row, Woodruff is the public school state champion in AA/A girls soccer!
Great job!
(No, I will not let this go; look at the boys side. . .Unfair is unfair. . .and if unfair impacted more important sports or larger schools. . .well. . .)
Sorry, but I have to disagree on this matter. Bishop England is the rightful South Carolina High School League State Champion in Class 2A/1A Girls Soccer. No ifs, ands, or buts.
Nowhere in the bylaws of the SCHSL does it state that members have to be public institutions. Now then, I would have a major problem with this caveat if BEHS only participated in soccer. However, the Battling Bishops, by their membership of the SCHSL, compete across the board in all athletics for championships in SCHSL sanctioned sports.
No preferential treatment is given to BEHS. Does that school have an advantage in what kind of students it can attract? Sure! If I was a practicing Catholic and lived in the Lowcountry, then it is a good chance I would want my child to attend this fine institution. But, I am not a Catholic and if I felt my child would be better off by attending a private school -- and if I could afford it -- then I do not see where it is a problem.
I respect the demeanor and concentration that BEHS has approached athletics and I never hear them complaining about their lack of success -- in the SCHSL -- when it comes to football and basketball. Though those sports are hardly down-trodden, they certainly are not "championship material" as their spring sports have proven to be throughout the years.
Off the top of my head I can name three pretty good "soccer schools" that compete in the SCHSL -- Bishop England, Christ Church, and Southside Christian -- again, it would be different if it was across the board in all athletics, but it simply is not. Comparisons can be made across the state about "country club public schools" where the demographics lend a hand to the successes of its programs (whatever they may be). I don't knock it -- just makes those that have to work a little harder on the subject and appreciate it a little more of what there is to battle and overcome.
Congratulations to Woodruff on the Class 2A/1A Upper State Championship and kudos to Bishop England on another state title!
Kyle:
Yes, BE and CC are and have always been the rightful champions because their participation is completely within the parameters created by the HSL.
As well, they are excellent programs with excellent coaches and players.
My points are two: (1) Private schools should not be allowed to compete with same-size schools when other factors are not (and cannot) be held constant (many states use a formula to adjust for these advantages); (2) private schools have different de facto rules that are NOT against HSL guidelines, and thus compete on an unlevel playing field.
Your other point, Kyle, is extremely important and almost never mentioned. We have profound disparities among public schools including affluence and open-enrollment allowances. A different disparity, but a disparity all the same.
If I were coaching AA/A girls, and I had a choice of who to play for the state, it would be BE without a doubt because they are the undisputed top team in AA/A girls soccer.
I think we do not disagree as much you think. But anyone who believes that the success of private schools in high school soccer has not in part been influenced by their advantages as a private school, then I believe that to be naive. (A similar and valid argument can be made for affluent public schools with many years of success as well.)
Another factor seldom mentioned:
- Wando has 31% more students than Mauldin.
- Riverside has 28% more students than Hilton Head.
- Woodruff has 1% more students than Bishop England.
Affluence is certainly a factor. The quality of clubs proximate to the high school is certainly a factor. I'm sure that there are other factors as well.
It appears that there are many factors that contribute to an "unlevel" playing field. Not sure how you'd ***EVER*** compensate for all of them.
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Kyle:
Yes, BE and CC are and have always been the rightful champions because their participation is completely within the parameters created by the HSL.
As well, they are excellent programs with excellent coaches and players.
My points are two: (1) Private schools should not be allowed to compete with same-size schools when other factors are not (and cannot) be held constant (many states use a formula to adjust for these advantages); (2) private schools have different de facto rules that are NOT against HSL guidelines, and thus compete on an unlevel playing field.
Your other point, Kyle, is extremely important and almost never mentioned. We have profound disparities among public schools including affluence and open-enrollment allowances. A different disparity, but a disparity all the same.
If I were coaching AA/A girls, and I had a choice of who to play for the state, it would be BE without a doubt because they are the undisputed top team in AA/A girls soccer.
I think we do not disagree as much you think. But anyone who believes that the success of private schools in high school soccer has not in part been influenced by their advantages as a private school, then I believe that to be naive. (A similar and valid argument can be made for affluent public schools with many years of success as well.)
CC, I agree with you that "we do not disagree as much as you think". You and I are on the "other end" with the high schools we are associated with and I totally understand your statement about playing BE in a State Championship -- everyone wants to measure "your best" against the perceived "best". Good comments!
On another note, I am not against a 1 1/2-rule (i.e., 800 students at a private school = 1,200 for classification and thus, Class 3A in S.C.). However, until the football/basketball coaches start squirming for these measures then it is a moot point and not worth the time to discuss (or argue :-).
Cradle:
I attended your match on friday and your team had a 1-0 lead going into halftime if I remember correctly. I thought Woodruff played a nice match. You have a quality coach, quality players and the most loyal fans of the weekend in terms of size. How did affluence play a roll in your loss? Seems to me your girls ran out of gas. Anyway, congratulations on a fine season. and lookout for #9 next year.
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Another factor seldom mentioned:
- Wando has 31% more students than Mauldin.
- Riverside has 28% more students than Hilton Head.
- Woodruff has 1% more students than Bishop England.
Affluence is certainly a factor. The quality of clubs proximate to the high school is certainly a factor. I'm sure that there are other factors as well.
It appears that there are many factors that contribute to an "unlevel" playing field. Not sure how you'd ***EVER*** compensate for all of them.
You can't, but we shouldn't discount addressing the inequities we can just because we can't do it perfectly.
I still believe some sports would be best served by leagues and the moving up/relegation system of the PL in jolly ol' England. Let performance balance things out over the years.
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Cradle:
I attended your match on friday and your team had a 1-0 lead going into halftime if I remember correctly. I thought Woodruff played a nice match. You have a quality coach, quality players and the most loyal fans of the weekend in terms of size. How did affluence play a roll in your loss? Seems to me your girls ran out of gas. Anyway, congratulations on a fine season. and lookout for #9 next year.
It didn't. BE outperformed WHS over the entire match and won. No excuses or complaints. Fair and clean and well deserved win by BE. Not my point at all.
My point has absolutely nothing to do with a single match. Woodruff's success over the past 6 or 7 years has come from the program incorporating many of the elements correlated with the advantages of affluence into a school program that has allowed Woodruff to compete fairly equally with all teams in AA/A despite the inequities of affluence and attendance areas. That fact does not erase the broad inequities, but it does highlight those elements needed to be successful at a high level.
A coach or school cannot magically change the affluence of a school, but they can build a commitment to the program needed to be successful.
Some other comments from the weekend:
How do 'soccer folks' arrive in Land Rovers, Mercedes, BMWs, etc., and pay admission -- to a high school event with a Benjamin -- and then lament the cost of a $2 program, $1 candy/soft drinks?
The SCHSL ticket-takers were blown away by the "big money" being thrown around at the gates and that those same people were complaining about $8 entry fees.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm!
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You can't, but we shouldn't discount addressing the inequities we can just because we can't do it perfectly.
Okay...well...I look forward to the system that compensates for Wando's student population advantage of almost a third or Mauldin's integrated and professional club environment of which some of the main training fields are a few miles down the road over my favorite high school. Perhaps we can apply it retroactively!
Shibumi:
Excellent points, and I wonder how valid the implied belief is that among the LARGER schools, these "advantages" aren't as significant as at smaller schools. It is far easier to get people's sympathies for "small" schools than for AAAA schools.
Great job by the Woodruff fans! Did anyone stay back and make sure no one was robbing the town blind?
CC,
I understand your point concerning the advantage that BE has through open enrollment and affluence (if we are agreeing that affluence positively effects performance in soccer). I could also see where this would be a disadvantage in football for Bishop England (Admin's point) and I doubt any AD's or football coaches would address it/take up during yearly meetings (nor do I know what resolution they would come to if they did) to make them more competitive on the gridiron.
It's tough, but take heart in knowing Woodruff is the #1 public school in AA/A and should take pride in that. Bishop Enland is the #1 school in AA/A and they should follow suit. I simply do not know what, if anything, could be done to make the playing field equal save participation strictly in the SCISA. Until then we'll have to live with the big pink elephant in the room.
Maybe it's all in your head CC. It's probably just an random occurance on the girls side. I'm sure the private schools on the boys side are barely making playoffs and SURELY not making it to state, much less winning it
i agree that woodruff is the public school state champions! i wonder if BE and Christchurch ever get tired of winning state, they need to be moved up to 3A or put in a private school league. Public school kids do not get to choose their school unlike those that go to BE. Some BE athletes are their on scholarship. i think that public schools like emerald and woodruff should boycott next year to get the private schools out of their league!
There is no good answer for the matter at hand. Like Kyle said "they compete across the board in all athletics".
It is frustrating to all public schools that get dominated by them. Ok don't flame me for this but they seem to succeed in the sports that are perceived to be rich kid sports here in the good ol USA. More money better facilties = better coaching...more coaches...the 2A boys team had 4 keepers on their team. I envy their program and what they have done with it. All I can say is they will continue to do this every year until a public school has a magic season like the Emerald boys did in 2004. We have to work twice as hard to equal them.
Cat,
My point is that you should be extremely proud of how well the Woodruff program has come along in the past few years. You, yourself, have certainly had a direct, or indirect, role in getting the girls to where they are today.
SCHSL 2A Upperstate Champions.
The reason that you didn't win the state title this year is not because BE is a private, Catholic school. It's because on the afternoon of May 16, in the last 40 minutes of the match, the Battling Bishops proved to be the better team.
That's all....no shame in losing. You had a great year.
If you want to talk about kids in a "disadvantaged situation", with respect to soccer, I'd be more open to listening about the trials and tribulations of a 4A Hartsville or a 4A Darlington. Those kids do not have immediate access to a high-level club soccer program.
Again, kudos to Woodruff....great season.
(PS - Watch out for Barnwell in three years!)
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Cat,
My point is that you should be extremely proud of how well the Woodruff program has come along in the past few years. You, yourself, have certainly had a direct, or indirect, role in getting the girls to where they are today.
SCHSL 2A Upperstate Champions.
The reason that you didn't win the state title this year is not because BE is a private, Catholic school. It's because on the afternoon of May 16, in the last 40 minutes of the match, the Battling Bishops proved to be the better team.
That's all....no shame in losing. You had a great year.
If you want to talk about kids in a "disadvantaged situation", with respect to soccer, I'd be more open to listening about the trials and tribulations of a 4A Hartsville or a 4A Darlington. Those kids do not have immediate access to a high-level club soccer program.
Again, kudos to Woodruff....great season.
(PS - Watch out for Barnwell in three years!)
Is that you, Jerome Singleton?
Statisitics are just that, statistics. They can be made to say exactly what you want them to say. What you CAN'T know through statistics is how many parents at these private schools work 2 jobs to be able to put their kids into a school that will provide an incredible education for them.
Also, the rosters of some of these private schools include less than 50% club players (25% in my case). Perhaps this statistic speaks to why certain public schools are closing the gap. Or perhaps the low % just speaks to the fact the coach does an amazing job. I will leave that to others to decide (but if you agree I won't let it go to my head).
I've been on both sides of the fence here, and quite frankly all I care about is that the kids enjoy themselves and respect the job an performance they give on the field. At the end of the day, a state championship doesn't define me. Watching my one year old son is what amazes and defines me right now. Coming home at the end of the day knowing that he doesn't care if we won or lost...well, that's what's amazing in this life.
These kids should be proud of their season, regardless of how they do. Every coach and every player can find some positive in their season. If not, then we aren't doing our jobs as coaches.
formerhscoach:
With all due respect, making a statement about stats meaning whatever one wants them to mean is also an implication by you that someone is being DISHONEST. An unfair game to play with stats. That some people are dishonest with stats does not mean that all people are. If I ever am dishonest with stats, call me on the dishonesty. If that is proven true, I would apologize and change publicly my stance. Otherwise, we should all address the issues and use the value in the stats.
CC and BE are outstanding schools and programs. Absolutely nothing I have stated is intended to discount anything by the students, parents, or athletes of these schools. And per Hurst66's comment, which I already noted, BE won the state championship the last two years ON THE PITCH, fairly—absolutely nothing to complain about.
I believe people tend to be too emotional, and jump to conclusions, feeling somehow that people or schools are being attacked.
In my field, my research often focuses on the impact of poverty/affluence on ACHIEVEMENT. I am highly sensitive to both the advantages and disadvantages faced in classrooms and on soccer pitches. I feel it is our obligation to address inequities so that CHILDREN and YOUNG ADULTS can receive the credit they deserve (and avoid unfair criticism for things beyond their control).
If Woodruff had defeated BE, that would not have changed my stance one millimeter. I also feel that inequities among our public schools should be addressed. If you notice I have for a while now emphasized the poverty index for the PUBLIC schools here to make a point about disparity within that context.
Anyone reading this web site associated with any private school, whether it competes in SCHSL or not, please accept my apologies if you have ever thought my comments and stances were disparaging of your or any private school. My discussion is not about the schools; it is about policies that fail to address equitably issues we can address (not my earlier post about how other states do this).
Thanks all for chiming in on this thread. I think this is important.
cc,
I didn't mean for my post to make it seem as though you were being dishonest. I guess reading what has been written regarding affluence is what I was addressing. I just want others to understand that private does not ALWAYS, 100% of the time equal affluence.
I myself went to a small (now closed) private school growing up and I can assure you we were not affluent by any stretch of the imagination.
I don't believe that you are attacking the kids or the institutions. I just felt the need to offer a few stats of my own...ones that I can back up with proof of my own knowledge. That isn't to suggest yours are not truthful.
I know that back in the years when CCES was very strong as a team, the ratio of club players was much higher. I would like to think that even though those numbers have declined, we have managed to remain marginally competitive.
I would also like to mention that the reason CCES competes in the SCHSL is because the administrators and coaches feel that the SCHSL gives the student athletes a great arena within which to compete and perform against the best student athletes around the state. (NOTE: This is not to say that SCISA is not competitive or does not have great talent within it's ranks.)
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cc,
I didn't mean for my post to make it seem as though you were being dishonest. I guess reading what has been written regarding affluence is what I was addressing. I just want others to understand that private does not ALWAYS, 100% of the time equal affluence.
I myself went to a small (now closed) private school growing up and I can assure you we were not affluent by any stretch of the imagination.
I don't believe that you are attacking the kids or the institutions. I just felt the need to offer a few stats of my own...ones that I can back up with proof of my own knowledge. That isn't to suggest yours are not truthful.
I know that back in the years when CCES was very strong as a team, the ratio of club players was much higher. I would like to think that even though those numbers have declined, we have managed to remain marginally competitive.
I would also like to mention that the reason CCES competes in the SCHSL is because the administrators and coaches feel that the SCHSL gives the student athletes a great arena within which to compete and perform against the best student athletes around the state. (NOTE: This is not to say that SCISA is not competitive or does not have great talent within it's ranks.)
Thanks for offering more. I would like to emphasize that you are making a HUGE and important point.
The reality is that affluence and poverty do not CAUSE anything, but that they are MARKERS (correlations) for many elements that are causational. Your specific example of "number of club players."
When I started coaching at Woodruff, CC's girls keeper would STAND AT MIDFIELD during our matches. . .Woodruff has achieved some parity with CC because the direct influences (such as year-round/club soccer) have balanced, thus eliminating the value of the marker (relative affluence).
Not all private schools are the same. . .and private schools do NOT outperform public schools when all factors are held constant:
http://nces.ed.gov/pubsearch/pubsinfo.asp?pubid=2006461But poverty is incredibly powerful:
http://www.jrf.org.uk/knowledge/findings/socialpolicy/2123.asp
I guess Catholic girls are just naturally 3-4 inches taller... I counted 27 on their team (wow)
funny, this conversation will not get them moved from A/AA...
Private schools have an extremely unfair advantage over public schools. Bishop England can draw from the entire county of Charleston, and Daniel Island, which is technically in Berkeley County. Charleston County has 330,368 people and is 1,358 square miles. No other AA school in the state can draw from such a large area, or from a pool of so many people. Take those numbers and compare them to another AA school, Barnwell. Barnwell High School draws from the city of Barnwell which is 7.8 square miles, plus the small town of Snelling, which is 3.1 square miles. The population of both is 5,281.
A pool of 330,368 people vs 5,281. That's 325,000 more people Bishop England can choose from.
I am not saying private schools should go to SCISA. But the 1.5 rule should be placed into effect.
1.5 rule? sorry for my not know what that is, but what do you mean?
For private schools, each student would count as one and a half students. So 800 students would equal 1200, thus moving them up a classification.
Kyle Heise has the same example on the 2nd page of this thread.
I don't want to hear any crying out of Barnwell, or I'll start losing respect for you.
Barnwell is doing a tremendous job of building a competitive 2A program. Just keep it up, and take your best shot at BE.
Continued good luck down there.
that would make sense,
I do want to say BE does deserve a round of applause, anybody AAAA, AAA, or stacked private school, if you beat Coach Fernando and his warrior wolverines girls, you deserve it. BE is just playing where the system allows them to play.
No crying here. Neither the boys or girls made it to third round so it's not like BE kept us from going to Stone Stadium. I kind of feel bad for the boys and girls of Waccamaw. The seniors will never get the chance to play on the pitch of Stone stadium, or hear their name called, or get a medal or a trophy presented to them there. Kids will never get the feeling of excitement playing in a state championship game, and all the emotions that come with it. It's just a shame for the kids, who work hard, but don't get the same advantages as other schools. Again, no crying, those are facts!!!
Until Mount Pleasant builds that second high school, and splits Superwoman right in half.....you should have the same sympathy for all the 4A girls schools!
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1.5 rule? sorry for my not know what that is, but what do you mean?
See page 2, last post, of this thread; I posted formula examples from other states.
Hurst, I hear that! But atleast it's a school playing by the same rules you are.
Do we need a .75 rule for Riverside?
Also, I would like to say I take nothing away from Bishop England. Both the boys and girls are extremely talented and it is obvious they put it many hours of hard work.
I got to work with Dave Snyder last summer and he's a good fella to be around. Coaches hard and is very knowledgeable.
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Do we need a .75 rule for Riverside?
Again, look at the links I provided. Many states use a formula for private schools, but some also do this for public inequities. Why, again, do you think I offer the PI info each year?
would love to see a Woodruff Wolverine match up versus single A Polk County (NC) Wolverines... they are headed to Raleigh for the state championship. Saw them this past Saturday beat their Catholic rivals, to go to Raleigh, first time ever. There is hope for the BE streak to end. As is.
Oh by the way, the Catholic school they beat, their moscot name was the 'Villians', I guess I should have been a catholic school boy after all
I would love to see any of SC's top teams play Asheville's AAA TC Roberson. They are 27-0, with 135 goals on the season and 2 goals against!! A couple of their girls played for the CESA '89 Premier team.
They beat Charlotte Catholic 1-0 this past week. Fort Mill tied Charlotte Catholic and Lexington beat Charlotte Catholic, so I think the SC teams can play with TC Roberson
Thanks firsttouch.
I was at the TC Roberson - Charlotte Catholic match on Friday night and it was a great game.
TC Roberson played AC Flora in the Fort Mill Invitational in March and beat them 5-0. TC Roberson expressed a strong interest in playing in the tournament again next year.
On Saturday night, in another NC Girls 3A Quarterfinal, Lake Norman beat Marvin Ridge 0-0 (3-1 Pk's) to advance to the semifinal match. Tomorrow (Wednesday) night, TC Roberson is at Lake Norman.
Lake Norman played Spartanburg to a 1-1 draw in the Fort Mill Invitational this year. Also Fort Mill defeated Marvin Ridge, 3-1, in a scrimmage back in February.
I didn't mean to say that SC schools couldn't compete, just a statement that I would love to see a game. From the information given, it looks like SC schools can compete with TC Roberson. They still have an amazing record and stats.
goal08,
The Fort Mill Invitational in March 2009 will feature eight schools from South Carolina and eight schools from North Carolina.
The eight schools from North Carolina will all play one game each against a South Carolina opponent. The eight schools from South Carolina will play one match against a North Carolina opponent and two matches against two South Carolina opponents.
North Carolina schools that have expressed an interest:
Charlotte Catholic
TC Roberson
Lake Norman
Marvin Ridge
Weddington
Ardrey Kell
Butler
King's Mountain
I guess I don't see the discrepancy in public schools matching up with private schools. I come at it from a different angle, obviously. Everyone keeps talking about how private schools can draw from such a larger pool of kids for their athletic teams. Not true. Private schools are smaller, typically, than public schools. Take Ben Lippen, for example. We have around 400 students in our high school. Woodruff has, what, at least twice that? Suppose half of those are girls. Woodruff then has twice the number of girls to pull their team from. It seems to me, then, that public schools would have an advantage in the numbers game, typically having a larger student body. After all, your teams come from your student body, not the general population. I grew up playing soccer in a AA public school, and always felt like I had the advantage, at least as far as numbers were concerned. It seems to me that the key to being successful has nothing to do with the number of people you get your students from. It should have everything to do with encouraging your players to be more involved in year-round soccer and building the program with the rescources that are available to you. I applaud Woodruff for doing just that! In fact, they beat us 3-0 this year. According to the argument I'm hearing, seems we should have had the advantage. I hope we will have the advantage in years to come if we continue to build our program the right way, the same way schools such as Woodruff and BE have, regardless of a private or public distinction.
Rob:
I mean no disrespect, but the issue is the ENTIRE ATTENDANCE area from which private schools can draw—not the school size.
The reason we have A, AA, AAA, AAA is to correct for the draw WITHIN a school.
Again, there is research that private schools have advantages due to the ATTENDANCE area discrepancy, along with the inherent affluence advantage found in most private settings.
The research, which I have posted before:
http://ohiosportsgeography.tadherold.com/hsfoot/publicprivatesxyears/publicprivate.htm
cat,
In terms of competitive high school girl's soccer, I think WHERE you are specifically located trumps how LARGE your attendance area may be.
Bishop England is very good because they are located in the heart of the Charleston market, where many good club teams develop players that may be inclined to attend BE.
If someone was to do this level of statistical work on SC, MAYBE, the SCHSL, might, on an off chance, if the stars are lined up, might think about this subject.
The evidence is clear as well as the circumstances in SC, and NC.
I wish you luck, playing up hill is never fun. Since we play in AAAA, we just get Mauldin, Dorman, Spartanburg, etc etc every year, fun fun fun...
The same argument could be made for Greenville having soccer in middle schools and Spartanburg having football. The relative dominance of the respective county to which sport it supports in middle school says volumes. Spartanburg just ignores Title IV and kicks butt in Football.
No disrespect taken, cat. I see your point and appreciate the research you've done. It is interesting to see this type of research from Ohio, and would love to see someone do this same type of research to see if these same things hold true in SC. I do agree with Hurst, that there is something to the notion attendance area isn't always the main factor, as much as WHERE your attendance area is. We have an advantage being in Columbia, BE has an advantage being in Charleston, but private schools in other areas where soccer has not taken root don't have that same advantage, despite having a larger attendance area. However, I do see your point and must concede that private schools do have at least an edge there. Thanks for putting this out there and making that research available. Hopefully someone will take this and run with it in our own great state.
Coach Brown, and others:
YES—many factors, whether soccer or academic success. We should all keep these issues in mind.
Location is also key, and we still often fail to identify the disparities within public, such as location and enrollment differences (some counties have open enrollment for the whole county/district while most do not).
Thanks for providing the data; really interesting stuff. I didn't read in detail, but I did scan through it. I thought several points were worth raising.
>>[cat's cradle] I mean no disrespect, but the issue is the ENTIRE ATTENDANCE area from which private schools can draw—not the school size.The problem as I see it is the practical one of defining what that theoretical attendance area might be. One approach might be to find whether the farthest flung student commutes from -- a more accurate one might take the mean of all areas in a 360 degree analysis (not not assuming a simple circle/radius because of differing population densities.)
As the author notes, there is a lot of current unknowns used in trying to understand geographic data -- and there are even more issues when taking into account competing schools (e.g., Academic Magnet, for example, which was recently ranked as a top US high school by Newsweek) that draw from the same potential population of that area.
>>The reason we have A, AA, AAA, AAA is to correct for the draw WITHIN a school.<<Is it to correct for draw or is it to correct for enrollment?
>>Again, there is research that private schools have advantages due to the ATTENDANCE area discrepancy, along with the inherent affluence advantage found in most private settings.<<With respect to the affluence factor, I absolutely get it. Of course, as you've shown often with the poverty index, there is a wide distribution of affluence within various schools, both public and private, in our state.
After scanning through this, I find that I still don't understand the basis of the quantitative analysis for attendance pools using a theoretical draw model -- there just appears to be too many unknown variables.
Trying to compensate for theoretical draw would seem to me to be less effective than trying to compensate for actual affluence level of the enrolled population. That way we don't have very poor areas competing with very rich areas. It's my guess, and only my guess, that this would be a more effective way of equalizing teams than through some factor based on draw area.
>>The research, which I have posted before:
http://ohiosportsgeography.tadherold.com/hsfoot/publicprivatesxyears/publicprivate.htm <<
BE has 800 plus students and bost a record 7 state titles in various sports this year alone .The 1.5 ratio works for Christ Church and Ben Lippin . But BE has twice the number of students. BE boys soccer have won 13 titles and the girls have won 7 in a row.
It's not a coincidence .Be dressed 27 quality players for the title game.That being said my daughter, a member of the woodruff soccer team looks foward to playing BE again,the game was a lot closer than the score
Congradulations to BE girls soccer team, ladies you played a great game
As coach of the CC team, I will say this...IF (and it's a big if) there is ever a A State Championship, I would not have a problem playing in the AA ranks if that is what the HSL says we have to do. The 1.5 ratio would ONLY move us to AA anyway. We do not and WILL NOT shy away from the best competition we can play. Even though at this time we do not have the number of club developed players as other teams (including Woodruff), I would still suggest that CC can play with some of the best teams in all classifications. I refuse to allow the team to slide by playing only teams I think we are capable of beating.
All of the data and research is great and quite frankly a little overwhelming, but if making changes would make everyone else happy, I would be happy as well. Even if I don't agree with the idea, if the HSL says this must be done, then we would abide. And it would make winning the AA Championship that much nicer (if that ever happened). This is just my opinion.
I don't think anyone doesn't believe that BE has an advantage -- demonstrably it does. The problem is how you account for that advantage. Do you use the label "private" to assess some type of penalty or do you use other indicators (such as affluence)?
Here's the analogy from a social issue with which our society is currently wrestling. It can be seen as per statistics that African Americans are unfairly disadvantaged in terms of admittance to universities. There are two fundamental methods for attempting to compensate for this disadvantage: one is to take into account race and the other is to take into account affluence. There are arguments for either; however, there are those that argue that labeling all African Americans as disadvantaged is in and of itself racism (of course, there are others that argue not labeling all African Americans in this manner is also racism.)
In this debate, the theory is that Orangeburg Prepatory school has the same advantage as BE on a student-by-student basis in terms an assessed "1.5" penalty (or whatever.) Maybe...but I kind of doubt it.
I appreciate the pain that schools like Woodruff feel at having to compete "unfairly" with BE. The trouble I have is creating a system that compensates for the "unfairness." I'd want to make sure that Wando and Dorman, two of the largest 4-A schools, are made more "fair." Then again, I'd personally take less affluence, less draw, and less everything else if I could turn LCSC (Lexington's soccer club) into CESA (Mauldin's "unfair" advantage.)
Your more than competative,one of the best AA teams Woodruff played all year. It would be ugly to watch CC play a single A plubic school. Thank you for proving my point
Shibumi:
I think you keep TRYING to raise the broadest and ultimately BEST point in all this, but it keeps getting lost—and I may be to blame.
I think HS sports do and should have high ideals. HS sports ultimately lay the groundwork for young people's live, primarily away from sport. Thus, we do things like have classifications, like having guidelines addressing fairplay.
The "private/public" topic should not become the focus, but how we address inequities SHOULD (as Shibumi keeps nudging for us to hear).
Without any doubt, the data are there, these attendance, poverty, and other factors create unlevel playing fields throughout SCHSL, many of which are exposed blindingly in soccer.
I think we have a moral responsibility to address those issues—not BE or CC as specific cases.
If you look at many topics over the years in this board, people look at my Poverty Index posts about public schools and respond MUCH differently than when I address inequities between public and private—although they are the SAME issue.