SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Girls Varsity Soccer SC 4A Girls State Championship game

Ok, you are REALLY making yourself look bad.

That was not luck, go watch the WHOLE video. Lexington girl put pressure on the Mann defender and the defender muffed the clear giving the ball right to the Lexington girl who then crossed the ball to the girl who shot the goal.

Start of the play the girl who shot the goal was converging on the ball, once she saw her player get control she immediately went the other way making herself open for the pass. And then she got the pass and placed it IN the goal. Little in the goal or a lot in the goal doesn't matter. It went in and it counts.

So it wasn't luck it was smart play by the Lexington girls and a mistake by Mann defender.

And give Lexington some credit. They are the ONLY undefeated team in the state at any level boys or girls.

And if you look at common games Lexington looks better.
Mann lost to Magnet 0-1 , Lexington beat them. 2-0
Lexington had two ties to start the season (they won them both in PKs) then crushed everyone else they played. And I mean crushed, they scored 2 goals in every game they played (besides the ties). And won every game but two by 2 or more goals.

Lexington is clearly the best team in the state this year. Hard to argue with 25 straight wins. Zero loses. Two ties that they won in PKs. So they beat every team they played, what more can you ask for them?

While I will agree that NFHS is different, and totally incompetent in my judgement, the NFHS rules do NOT address AR responsibilities on goals and thus defer to the FIFA laws.

And since you seem to be so knowledgeable about the NFHS rules, then why was the game allowed to be played on an improperly marked field in violation of NFHS rules? Why was the home team allowed to wear uniforms in violation of NFHS rules? Why was the field not properly inspected by the officiating crew in violation of NFHS rules? I could go on but I believe I have made my point.

You make a statement that is not true but the issues that are true are ignored.

Statement from J.L. Mann Coach Steve Georgopoulous via email to post for him on the Message Board:

Congratulations to Lexington.

Mann....tough loss.

In all my years of watching soccer (and there are many) and watching dozens of high school soccer state championships, I have never seen such a debacle as the SC 4A championship between Lexington and Mann. This officiating crew should be banned for life from the pitch. It was by far one of the worst jobs ever done by a crew that I have ever witnessed. Clearly the fiasco at the end of the game with the goal called in golden goal overtime where the AR visibly, demonstratively, and verbally indicated it was not a goal is what everyone will be talking about; however, this crew was simply awful the entirety of the match.

There was the non-PK call at the 7 minute mark of the first overtime period where a defensive player restrained an offensive player in the box by grabbing her shoulder with a hand full of jersey and pulled her back so the keeper could corral the ball (watch the tape…it is very clear). There was no doubt this was a PK in real-time yet the center swallowed his whistle like nothing happened. There were the two botched calls in the 2nd half on Mann #15 who should have received a second yellow and forced Mann to play down a man; but again, the center cowered at making the right call. That of course assumes that the first yellow he showed was correct…that would be a wrong assumption. Then of course he was more than willing to whip out another yellow card for unsporting behavior for sending the ball away after a foul. I have a real problem with referees who are fast to throw soft yellows for minor infractions or during stoppages in play yet refuse to make the right decision on plays that can get someone hurt. Let’s talk about the dozen or so handballs that were never called. How a qualified referee can miss that many simple calls like that is unbelievable. Ironically however, one of the ARs must have x-ray vision because he called a handball on a ball that was chested and all he could see was the player’s back. Then there is the AR calling for an offside free kick when it was a goal kick. He didn’t even know what was going on in the game. How about the handling offense on the Lexington keeper in the 1st half that was not called just outside the six…clearly that was a Lexington defender trying to shoot on her own goal and not making an intentional pass back. Are you kidding me? Then there are the offside calls when a “defensive player” plays the ball back. How’s that? Is there a new offside law?

That takes us to all the fouls that were called, I disagreed with about 80% of those called (way too many of those were very soft touch fouls); and, all the fouls that were not called that should have been called, with which I disagreed 100%. Call the fouls consistently please. It was such a pitiful display of incompetence that was so totally random and inconsistent that it is extremely hard to believe that this guy actually passed the certification test let alone was chosen to do a championship match. I would also love to see the foul stats on this match as they had to be outlandishly one-sided against one team.

Finally, that brings us to the mayhem in the final minute of the first golden goal overtime. The shot is taken, hits the bar, bounces down off the line, and out into the field of play. The AR does not indicate goal, he simply begins to follow the ball back up the field. The Lexington players do not complain. Suddenly the center stops the match and calls goal. Chaos erupts from both teams and fans. The center goes over to the AR who verbally and demonstratively indicates that it is not a goal, which was witnessed and overheard by a multitude of players, coaches, and spectators. The Mann players and bench celebrate the “no-goal” they believe is about to be called when suddenly the Center for no known reason indicates “Goal.” What a complete abuse of power. The center was in no position to make that call. He must defer to AR on the line. To overrule the AR in that situation is ludicrous from an officiating standpoint. And, as has been shown in the many pictures floating around on the web already, the entire ball was NOT over the goal line. The picture floating around that shows it best shows the ball kicking up black crumb from the white football line just behind the goal line. While the center of the ball did land behind the line, the laws of physics with the angle of attack of the ball coming down preclude the entire ball from having crossed the line. It was not surprising when this crew immediately made way for the clubhouse and left chaos reigning still out on the pitch. Now there are stories that the AR is changing his story to the state officials and saying that he did tell the Center it was a good goal. The many witnesses and the reaction of the Mann team clearly refute that. Now it’s merely a cover-up to try and save face for this entire crew and the state association.

In soccer, many times players and/or coaches will complain that a referee cost them a game, which is simply not true…they just had a bad game but it impacted both teams. In this case however, one referee had an absolutely abysmal game and not only did it cost one team a game, it cost them a championship.

Bottom-line is this…whatever happened on that pitch tonight was awful and there needs to be some real inquiry as to what truly went on with this referee and this crew at this championship match. It is unacceptable!
Sent from my iPhone

Great stuff EXCEPT... the photo you posted is not from the game yesterday, but from a game earlier in the year. (I posted it via a google search)

If you look at this screen capture or watch the channel 7 video you can see that the posts are much further forward and are in the right position for yesterday's game.
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13247907_10205684533293332_6392098719823842043_o.jpg


And by your measurements if the ball is 9 inches in diameter and lands 4.8 inches behind the line then the whole ball MUST be pass the black line. And that is just the edge of where the ball landed. The center spot from where it landed is another few inches inside the goal so if the ball landed 9 inches in the goal and its only 9 inches round then the whole thing has to be in the goal.

Again, watch the channel 7 newscast it has the best angle and it lands clearly inside the goal AND the goal posts are in the right position with the back of the post lined up with the back of the black goal line. (BTW how many games were played yesterday? You don't think one person would have noticed if the posts were in the wrong position?)


And again, complain about the ref being in the wrong spot, bad angle, to far away, can't tell with the naked eye etc etc etc end of the day they got it right.

I'll break it down into what I saw discussed on this board.

1) You take a goal, which was a goal no matter how much math you do on it, and draw the conclusion because the AR didn't act 100% the way you thought they should, it isn't a goal.

2) Mann had proportionally more fouls called against them during the match, which could be from the fact they played a more aggressive style of play, which will cause more fouls to be called against them.

3) Dale said that referees go into a match with a predetermined winner in mind, which is so false I don't even know where to go with it. And it is just an opinion.

4) Dale says Mann was beaten by the referees. Again, a statement you can't back up with any proof. It is an opinion statement. The last time I checked, both teams had the referee making calls for/against them.

5) Dale refers to the AR trying to do the right thing by not calling the goal, when it is quite apparent with his body language and the fact that he ran up the line that the AR was calling a goal. In fact every referee that I directed to this video showing his response say that he is displaying the goal was a goal.

6) Apparently the channel 4 camera guy is a soccer professional with whom whose opinion we should all be held to.

7) Watch in slow motion how much a soccer ball deforms when it strikes a solid object at a high rate of speed. If you want to play silly little math games, the ball literally will "squish" down to reach almost 80% of the diameter of the ball. So plug that into your equations and figure that one out. The ball fully crossed the goal line by at least 1 1/2 inches.

8) Dale is stuck on the lazy referees, I would like to see what shape this all to critical man is in. I bet he is a fine example of the dad bod.

9) "Clearly the fiasco at the end of the game with the goal called in golden goal overtime where the AR visibly, demonstratively, and verbally indicated it was not a goal is what everyone will be talking about; however, this crew was simply awful the entirety of the match. " This is an opinion, and is false......

10) "Let’s talk about the dozen or so handballs that were never called." Yes, please lets talk about them. Really this is handling, because there is no such thing as a handball. If there is no intent, and there was no hand TO ball, there is no handling. I think we solved that one.

11) "That takes us to all the fouls that were called, I disagreed with about 80% of those called", this statement drives me nuts. If you disagree with the calls, go get a license and do a better job. You all want to gripe, but nobody wants to put up with the crap you have to put up with as a referee. The angle you see in the stands is completely different than that on the field. Seriously, man up, go get certified and do some refereeing yourself.

12) "It was such a pitiful display of incompetence that was so totally random and inconsistent that it is extremely hard to believe that this guy actually passed the certification test let alone was chosen to do a championship match." Have you ever looked at the certification test for SCHSL soccer officials? It isn't difficult. I am surprised you would make this comment, for it is very easy to become a referee. Any obtuse person can do it, you just have to get a passing score, so you only need to get 4 out of 5 calls right...haha

13) "The AR does not indicate goal, he simply begins to follow the ball back up the field." False, the AR is not to follow the ball up the field. Why would he even do this to begin with? He stays with the second to last defender, which was the keeper. this didn't happen. He isn't a dog out there chasing the ball. this is truly a moronic statement.

14) " The center was in no position to make that call. He must defer to AR on the line. To overrule the AR in that situation is ludicrous from an officiating standpoint." the center referee didn't over-rule the AR call. That's a straight up lie made to attempt to sway people to your side of the argument.

15) " While the center of the ball did land behind the line, the laws of physics with the angle of attack of the ball coming down preclude the entire ball from having crossed the line." Really? I work at a nuclear power plant and use physics all the time. Your physics must be of the quantum mechanics type, because normal Newtonian physics shows that this can clearly happen, and as a referee, I have seen this exact goal happen dozens of times.

16) "Now it’s merely a cover-up to try and save face for this entire crew and the state association." Purely conjecture and your own opinion. I'll put your opinion right up there with the idea that the US government took down the twin towers.

17) " In this case however, one referee had an absolutely abysmal game and not only did it cost one team a game, it cost them a championship." In reality, if Mann would have played to the "level" that everyone said they were capable of, this would not have happened. I get so tired of hearing it was the referees fault. Man up, play harder, play the best that you can and let the chips fall where they may. In life, you don't get to blame everyone else for your problems. This is what is wrong with our society, and this is a perfect entitled example of you blaming everyone else and not the fact that your girls couldn't have executed their game plan a bit better.

would you like me to continue?

Ok, there are really only two debatable things on that final goal.

1. Was the goal in the right place
2. Where did the ball land.

1. Was the goal in the right place?
There were 4 games yesterday. That is four sets of refs, four sets of coaches and 8 goalies and not ONE of them noticed that the goal was in the wrong place? But someone from the stands or watching a TV review saw whatever all those other people missed? Really???

Not buying that.

And let's be honest, if the goal was in the wrong position and your coach didn't notice or say something then tough luck. Don't play a complete game and then at the end complain "oh the goal post was in the wrong spot so that goal shouldn't count"

Sorry life doesn't work that way.

Also I would expect the refs to call the game based on the locations of the lines, not the goal. Imagine if the ref disallowed a goal that crossed the line by saying the line was not in the right spot?

Finally the best photo I have seen of the goal posts suggest that the goal is in exactly the right position.
Click the link to see a large high quality photo showing that the front of the post is slightly in front of the line which suggests that the back of the post is lined up with the black goal line. I know there are a lot of problems with SC soccer, but I don't think lining up a goal post for a championship game is one of them.
https://scontent-atl3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/13247907_10205684533293332_6392098719823842043_o.jpg



2. Where did the ball land?
For this we have a great photo and a video from channel 7. Both suggest that the ball was 100% inside the goal, and not even close.

Remember the ball is 9 inches wide so once the center of the ball is 4.5 inches past the line it is completely in the goal, math doesn't lie (unless it's common core)

Based on someone else's measurement the landing spot of the ball is 4 inches past the black line. And that is the very edge of the landing spot. Now if the landing spot was half an inch wide you might have a point (4 inches in plus half inch = 4.5 inches inside the goal)

But the landing spot creates an impact much more than half an inch. In fact the landing spot looks to be the same diameter of the ball. So if the landing spot is the same width of the ball and that spot is 4 inches inside the goal then the ball HAS to be in the goal.

9 inch wide ball creates a spot 9 inches wide and that spot is 4 inches inside the goal then the whole ball MUST be inside the goal. Math doesn't lie.

The only way for this to not be a goal would be for the center of the ball to land 4.5 inches inside the goal, any further and its 100% in, and if the center of the ball lands 4.5 inches inside the goal then the landing spot would be less than 4 inches from the black line.

Again mathematically there is no way for that ball to land that far inside the goal, leave a spot that big and for the whole ball to not be inside the goal itself. I mean, the ball landed on the line but the spot it created was 4 inches away?? One hell of a trick ball.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CidRTBfXAAA1_CH.jpg


So all the physical evidence we have suggest that the goal posts were in the right spot and that the ball landed well past the goal line.

If I am wrong then explain to me how that ball created a spot that big that far inside the goal without being in the goal itself. And explain how that impact zone doesn't touch the line, for it to not be a goal the ball would have had to land on the line, at least partially, and this the impact zone would have to be on the line as well, or very very close.

18. State Championship soccer games shouldn't be played on a football field with improperly placed goals.

On this, I think we can all agree.

Believe it or not, the goal posts are irrelevant, the only thing that matters is, did the ball cross the goal line.

Situation 1.4.1 ....the entire ball passes beyond the goal line, but does not pass beyond the goal posts and under the cross bar because the goal is not in its proper position. A goal is awarded.
Ruling: Correct decision. The goal is assumed to be in the proper position.

That picture clearly shows the ball mark completely beyond the goal line.

As to the goals not being properly placed, etc. In Georgia this year for their state championship girls basketball games their baskets were somehow improperly placed and no one but one person noticed. It happens.

http://usatodayhss.com/2016/baskets-set-up-in-wrong-place-for-georgia-state-title-games

As a Mann parent, we should win with class and lose with class. It's fun to win, it hurts to lose - especially like that - but we inevitably have to experience both. I've watched the videos several times and I have to agree that it was a goal - regardless of anything else. Whether the AR or center ref truly thought or knew that it was a goal is up for debate, but the evidence is strong that the entire ball was across the goal line.

I do believe that Mann was the better team and controlled the majority of the game. In a series, Mann would probably win. In a one game championship, Mann failed to capitalize on their opportunities, while Lexington took advantage of their chances. Mann has a great team, but sometimes great teams don't always win.

The referees did not cost Mann the game. Were there questionable calls? Certainly, but that is no different than any other game in any other sport. Mann had some good looks at the goal, but the shots didn't fall. And when Mann had defensive breakdowns, Lexington was able to put the ball in the net (or across the line).

Mann loses a great group of seniors, but there is no rebuilding for this team. They will simply reload and hopefully use this experience as ammunition and come back stronger and more powerful next year.

Never fear Patriot fans, you guys will just need to recruit better for next year. A few more players not zoned for Mann... more players who don't even live in Greenville county. Just keep using that magnet school loophole to get the remaining CESA ECNL players next year. #karmaisabeautifulthing