SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Club Soccer & ODP Talent Evaluation Analysis & Other Musings

You may be interested to hear Bruce Arena and Claudio Reyna discuss the very topic of this thread:

http://podcast.ussoccer.com/June23_Press_Conference.mp3

>>Let's face it, I'm having a hard time understanding why U11 players would travel 1-1/2 hours to play soccer for a team that could similarly be played 10-15 minutes from home. At $2.80 a gallon for gas, I just don't know where you draw the line. More power to them, but is the "product" truly superior and if so, how?<<

Several things:

• At $2.80 a gallon for gas [...] I'm "only" paying $2.59 for gas!
• Is the "product" (or "service") truly superior? On the girls side, at least to date, there are few viable alternatives in South Carolina. Last year the ODP region pool, selected by non-club and for the most part non-SC college coaches, was eight of nine from one club. And this one club has been noted as not having eenough participation in SC ODP! To use another criteria, look at the girls Gatorade player of the year for the last 6 years -- from memory, all but one came from one club [or a forerunner of that one club.] The product/service in my experience is vastly different on the girls side.
• On the boys side, it seems that South Carolina has a wider variety of clubs offering at least comparable products/services, as measured by either the ODP region pool selections or as measured by state challenge cup championships. As futbol(soccer) noted, it certainly seems somewhat easier to find a state-level competitive local team [ignoring the club] on the boys side than the girls side. Region-level? That's tough to find on either the boys side or the girls side; but there have been more instances in the last 5-6 years of regionally competitive boys teams from a variety of clubs than there has been on the girls side.
• [...] is the "product" truly superior and if so, how? Regarding "how?", again, on the girls side, I've seen tremendous differences in "how." The most obvious "how's" are a superior player pool, an open training environment, the number of training sessions available, and the quality of those training sessions. The superior player pool simply means that some clubs consistently have better players to challenge each other. An open training environment simply means that players are both allowed and encouraged to train with any team they want, regardless of their team or even club affiliation. This again draws superior players to challenge each other. The number of training sessions available is a function of both the open training environment and the number of training sessions per team. I've seen many clubs with challenge teams expect that two practices a week, with optional speed training, is enough. It's not. Finally, with regard to the quality of the training sessions, a focus on possession variations, short-sided game variations, and full-sided scrimmages with a decreased emphasis on standing in line drills seems to mark a significant difference in the product/service.

The equation for United States soccer is simple

skill with a ball + money = getting to the next level. Sometimes skill with a ball can be left out leaving: money = getting to the next level.

Everywhere but the U.S.: skill with a ball = getting to the next level.

Now to get to the professional level in the US a person would have to

Be good + play HS or Club + Get Recruited by a bigtime school + actually play there + make a list of MLS prospects + Either get drafted into the MLS or USL or tryout and hopefully make the squad

A ton of places for interruptions or where a person may fall through the proverbial cracks. Hey, if you achieve this you might get paid 30 grand a year plus endorsements. Thanks I'll stick to my path as a public educator or wal-mart greeter. Unless your really good and then you get paid in the 70 grand range. WOWIE.

In other countries just being good at a young age and working your way through a club program can many times send you on your way to a multi-million dollar contract.

Let's face it, DC United isn't going to check out a local Y game to put 13 yr old Johnny who's dominating the opposition in a soccer-rich environment where he is taken care of, schooled, and looked after like they do in Italy, England, etc. Rather, you have to go the backwards route and pay to play instead of being paid TO play. What happens is that soccer becomes an elitest sport. However, I find it ironic that while the affluent individuals thrive in soccer the US federation and soccer itself have little money or prestige. Compare the wages of the Big3 to MLS players. What you get is those being served being bigger than the service.

Let's also face something else. The best athletes in America aren't playing soccer. They probably won't ever. They're playing the big 3. American's cherish a few fundamental themes that soccer lacks for instance being physically bigger than others (how much can you bench? squat?) as well as being tougher than the opposition (I bet big 3 fans struggle with all the diving and rolling around on the ground for 3 minutes after you got your toe stepped on and I can't blame them. Soccer players in a lot of cases are rightfully labeled as pansies.).

Finally, I think that a lot of blame is to be put on coaches who (in HS especially) fail to do their job for their kids. Perhaps they don't know their job as a soccer coach and how it's different from being a big 3 coach. Because of budgets/scholarship alotments/ncaa regulations it is sometimes impossible for a kid to get looked at by a college coach and unfortunately a lot of talent simply moves on, even if they would have cherished an oppurtunity to just play some more soccer somewhere. Why do you think BC has so many players go on the the next level? Probably because Kevin Heise knows that it requires work and you can't simply just show up and coach like at a good big 3 program. The problem is, that not every coach understands or cares about this process. HS and college coaches have to work together to insure that the kids who are deserving get a chance to fulfill their dreams which ultimately will boost the national level of talent.

Even HS seniors are "kids" who don't know the process of getting to the next level. Parents who never played the game more than likely don't realize how much that process differs from the big 3. Finally, sadly enough coaches, more often than not, aren't aware of this either leaving no one representing the kids.

Shut... I assume by the big 3 you mean Football, baseball and basketball. I will sound like a heretic.... there is nothing slower than baseball exceot maybe golf, so action wise there is no comparison.
Football is a coaches game... in the old days you went out there and called your plays, nowdays you have to be told what to do ...just execute and everything will be OK. Great action but very little creativity.
Basketball is the closest thing... but to me basketball is 5 minutes long, start at 100 and play 5 minutes and you have the same result.

So the big 3 generate lots of money... the 2 Bs by playing a million games in a season. Football only has 16 games for the obvious physical toll.

The problem with your statement best athletes do not play soccer. Lets first state that as athletes go soccer players are usually better conditioned due to the game, secondly you have to compare apples to apples... The US is the size of Europe, you cannot use the same logic for building players that is used there, especially when the infrastructure is almost non-existant. you basically have to compare a continent to the US. Therefore you cannot say that there aren't enough athletes to select 23 to play at the world cup out 300 million.
The problem (or differenc) is choice. There are far too many choices in the US, the same cannot be said elsewhere. So in order to develop the players a whole new approach must be used, using rejects from Europe/SA/Mexico to run the programs is not going to work because their experience is not the US reality. Secondly your point....money.... the US has it, a service is provided therefore a fee is paid. But what is the ROI?.... nothing....unless you use school or profesional leagues as the enticement.

So you want to fix soccer? start by making 18 scholarships available at schools instead of the missly 9.9 for men or 12 (?) for women.

Where to get it from? Football has 60 plus scholarships on an individual basis. In any game no more than 40 play (to be generous) why you need so many? And yes I heard the stories of who pays for what....see Chico's analysis.

But here is the crux of the matter, you have to rob Peter to pay Paul, and Peter is none too happy. So lets drop the charade, admit that college football and basketball are indeed profesional, and start comparing apples to apples. Soccer will be a slow growth market in the US, one which will eventually grow in size to challenge the status quo, but it will not happen anytime soon.

So I will continue to push the sport I love, work within the available avenues and try to provide ideas (hopefully good ones) on how to make it better.

We can complain all day long but if we do not get off our butts, nothing will change and nothing will get better....except of course for our complaining.

First of all I hate baseball just as much as the next person. However, a lot of people don't. Apparently it's so competitive that people abuse steroids to get ahead of the competition. So that pretty much takes care of your baseball comment. Basketball is probablly one of the best aerobic sports around (next to soccer). I don't know if you've ever played it but it can be pretty exhausting. Sprinting up and down a court, stopping and starting again. It takes a lot out of you which is why bball players (with some exceptions) are very skinny. They work out a ton but because of their height and the physical exertion they fail to put on the bulk like a football player would. As for football. I enjoy football because I enjoy the strategy involved. It's an explosive game that requires thought, speed, and physical strength. I wish more football bound athletes would play soccer. Heck I wish more basketball bound athletes would play soccer.

ok, so your next point. If our best athletes play soccer then why did we take a bunch of 5ft 150 lbs. nothings to europe (minus gooch and ching, ching never played anyways). Check the stats. We had 3 or 4 guys under 150 lbs. How can you win a ball at that height/weight? In Europe we were hit in the mouth by 6 ft 7 Jan Koller in the first 4 minutes that we were on the field. Then we could never get by that back line of trees the czechs have. Then it was a spiral downward and let's face it we had a ton of luck in 02. We were extremely fortunate to make it that far. If our best athletes play soccer then why are they not being seen in the top leagues around the world? Who do we have playing in Serie A or SPL? I realize that Bobby Convey plays at Reading FC a 2nd division English league, Brian Mcbride and Reyna play in the EPL but I think we saw how awesome they were. Do you think this is some conspiracy that other leagues around the country aren't trying to tap the US athlete for prospects? There aren't any.

Obviously the US has money but soccer itself does not. It's an olympic sport and until about 10 yrs ago it wasn't even a mainstream sport. Some would argue it isn't now. Listen to all the sports talk shows and everything else. They HATE soccer. HATE IT. Everything about soccer is negative to them. Do you think that doesn't have an affect on people? Do you think they're ill-informed?

You're not taking football scholarships, sorry. Football generates so much money. Go to a USC game if you don't think so. 100,000 people + coming to Columbia for a home game can't be wrong. How many people frequent soccer games at USC? Do You? You're not robbing peter to pay paul. You'd ultimately be robbing the university of their money. If you want more scholarships, and I think at least in principle you and Chico are right, you need to look elsewhere. Perhaps women's rowing doesn't need 15 full scholarships? Look that up if you think it's a joke.

The problem is like I said before your "avenues" available have a ton of wreckage on them. You have to clear the wreckage making soccer affordable for that premium athlete who probably can't afford it but he sure can afford to go to his local bball hang out and shoot hoops all day. He sure can play football for his hs team which will provide him with all the equiptment for free. From there he can do anything. He can go to the next level. In soccer? No. You have to pay 20923804923492347 dollars to play club. You have to be on a good hs team and then you have to present yourself to a coach who happens to be where you are. If it was easier to make it to the next level perhaps we'd get a Dwayne Wade in soccer or a Lebron James. Perhaps we'd see a T.O. or a Steve Smith.

I think that it is a given that the road to 'success' in soccer will run through college play in this country for a long time to come. That is the model that we are used to here, and I think doing anything counter to that will meet too much resistance. If you accept this, then the idea of more scholarships makes perfect sense.

I am the granddaddy in this discussion. I played in the first organized youth soccer game in SC in 1972 and have been involved continously in youth soccer since that time. In 1972 there were more working class families involved in youth soccer than today. Youth soccer has become a sport of the elite and there is no problem with that. Until we create a venue for the "every man" to play we will not be able to compete at the level that we all want.

Club soccer is a great experience. As one of the first coaches in this state that was paid to coach a team I have no problem with acknowledging that people should be paid for the work that they do. Unfortunately, without corporate sponsorship we have allowed well heel parents to dictate who plays on our best teams. Good players without money need not apply.

The ethnic leagues may be the future. More and more high schools will be forced to look to those leagues to find their next prospects. These leagues provide quality affordable play without the expense of travel and other ancillary expenses.

Colleges coaches who used to look exclusively at club teams are recognizing that the high schools now have experienced coaches that we did not have a decade ago. As a result more and more college coaches are taking a hard look at quality high school programs.

As I stated in a reply in a related topic, things can be changed to better development for the top players in South Carolina. There's not enough top players to be segmented, however, DOCs will have to swallow their "pride pill" and "self-building State Cup titles" and allow top players to have what's best, whether they provide it or not.

Regardless of how much a CESA, or top club, might think they "have it all," there are still alot of players from distances away they don't have that need the top environment, consistently, with other top players. Remember, adding a top player and telling him/her to make the long trip once a week or every two weeks is not development.

An idea is to have 1) a committee of top soccer coaches (club, college) to 2) appoint a full-time DOC and then 3) serve as his technical group and work closely in making all soccer/development decisions like league formation, training environments/curriculum and, of course ODP restructuring.

In addition, I believe the ODP pools, in this state, should be year round teams that play under a club (or maybe a SCYSA-formed Columbia based club just for that matter) and play Premier League and/or US Club. Does that mean seperating and catering to the elite? YES. Decisions for the majority doesn't develop the minority, the best! You can still have SCYSA leagues for the other clubs/teams and they'll only play one another in State Cup. If the elite teams win, then it should. If the elite teams don't win, then things are advancing, maybe, for an outside group and a player or two could be identified. But this way, the best players are guaranteed to play and train together with top coaches.

The most important thing is the top players train, at least, 3 times a week in Columbia (or a central location)so they actually train and move around on weekends when there's not matches. With so few top, top players, they need to be in the same environment constantly.

I know this all seems drastic and different, and there's probably a better chance of seeing SCYSA brass (like Mary Bynum) juggling 3 times, but it's needed. Get rid of administrators making soccer decisions and allow that to the best soccer people. South Carolina needs thorough and wholesale change!

I've added a few more (in all CAPS) to help you...

1990 ODP STATE TEAM
Crayton Benson, NORTHWESTERN
Patrick Cates, Dutch Fork
Zackary Clark, NORTHWESTERN
Michael Czulinski, Ridge View
Andrew Denn
Michael Essman
Gradey Grumman
Rudiger Hellberger
Luke Hogan, Wando
George Khoury, Bishop England
Ralph Lundy, Wando
William Lynch, Irmo
Enzo Martinez, Northwestern
Erik Mozzo
Kevin Nolan
Robert Owens
Aaron Peter, Riverside
David Slaughter, Chapin
A-Gustavo Delgado, Lexington
A-Graham Howard, Lexington
A-David Moore
A-Tyler Vukoder, Fort Mill

1991 ODP STATE TEAM
Stephen Arneson
Andrew Barbieri, Fort Mill
Nash Brace
Henry Callis
Jason Chapman
Andrew Gorospe, SOUTH POINTE
Alexis Martinez, Northwestern
Kyle McEwan, Irmo
Benjamin Montry
Byron Quinatoa, Dreher
Daniel Riley
Brendan Shumberger
Tyler Staub
Joseph Sweet, Pinewood Prep
Brandon Tyner, Bishop England
Michael Valencia, MAULDIN
Thomas Valikonis
Adam Wolf
A-Patrick Adkins
A-Jeffrey Antinoro, Rock Hill
A-Chandler Burns
A-Timothy Byrd
A-Jordan Hunsaker, Olympic (Charlotte, NC)
A-Brantley Wiggins