SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Girls Varsity Soccer 3d ref please

How about someone that has the decision making authority add the TOTALLY NECESSARY 3d ref for all the games with the possible exception of the JV girls games?
I estimate if each parent would pay one dollar per game more, then we could have the extra ref. I'd personally be happy to pay that fee. Any comments?
My son is a ref and he knows the 2 ref system leaves huge gaps in what can be seen. He gladly takes advantage of this as a player as do many of the kids.
Are there not enough refs or is SC just doing it on the cheap?

I think this is culture and lack of refs—Most ADs (even ones who are suportive) don't really "get" this—and I am pretty sure SC lacks enough refs—We had two separate crews at a triple-header last night—and the first crew left ASAP out of fear that the second wouldn't show and they'd be forced to ref—One ref noted he had done 10 matches that week. . .

There is a huge shortage of refs, especially quality refs. They are terribly overworked and if some parents and a few coaches don't get a grip on themselves the problem will just get worse. Trust me, the money is not enough to put up with what they endure.

The sad thing is that the two person system limits a coach's tactical options. It is pretty scary to run a flatback defense when you KNOW that the ref will not be in perfect position to call the offsides.

CJ:

Some GREAT points.

First, ONE quality ref may be better than two or even three inexperienced/low-quality refs.

Second, EVERY SINGLE soccer program should begin EDUCATING and RE-EDUCATING the parents and fans. . .The poor knowledge and attitudes of fans may be serious deterrents to anyone pursuing soccer ref'ing.

At a recent match, the refs came up to the coaches of the home team and thanked the coaches/team/fans for a pleasant ref'ing experience—unprompted.

I agree. We have had officials who have, in my opinion, called some very good and fair matches, but still have to hear a lot of negativity from the stands. People need to understand that the calls aren't always going to go in our favor, and there are a number of factors that go into each on-the-fly decision. Anyone who is out there making a conscientious effort to call a fair match and ensure the safety of the players deserves a thank you now and then.

From ground level, not everything is always seen as it is from the elevated stands, and sometimes things are missed and people make mistakes. I made a bad one myself earlier this week when I failed to notice an opposing player down and called for one of mine to save a ball that was going out. I was wrong, I goofed, and I felt bad...but I hope that doesn't make me one of those names people tend to call officials when they make an honest mistake as well.

There are only two errors by officials I get upset about--making calls that affect the course of the game when they are not in position or don't have solid cause, and (especially) failing to get involved and blow the whistle when blatant violations occur and/or player safety is at risk. We have been fortunate enough to have very few of either situation this season.

To the officials who have made a conscientious effort to call a fair match, who have taken the time to explain calls and expectations to both players and coaches to improve their understanding of the rules and the game, who have put player safety as a priority, and who have agreed to let the honest efforts of the players decide the course of the match, I want to say thank you. Keep coming back. And bring some like-minded friends with you!

Coach:

Your post helps me see what I think is the central "problem" with SC soccer—including the play, the coaching, the refs, and the fans/parents:

The disparity in soccer experience and knowledge. When refs are weakest (when coaches are weakest, when players are weakest, when fans/parents are weakest) is when they come to ref'ing with little to no soccer experience/knowledge.

The problem in SC is we NEED new people/players to come to HS soccer, thus we will have this disparity. Sigh. . .

Since we are in the girls forum—don't we all cringe at the girls matches when parents/fans scream EVERY time a player falls or two players touch. . .cheer when the ref calls EVERY fall and touch. . .making no distinction between fair play/contact and dangerous/unfair play/contact. . .those are the worst HS girls matches to endure. . .takes a quality ref to keep this from ruining a match in HS.

Totally agreed, and it takes a good eye and experience to tell the difference. There is a huge difference between situation one: two players going hard for the ball, meeting shoulder-to-shoulder, and one of them losing footing while the other continues with the ball, and situation two: player dribbling with the ball, another player puts a forearm in her back and face-plants her to the turf.

Good officials' call on situation one would be play on, situation two would be foul.

Common parents' call on either situation? "She knocked my daughter down--card her!!!!"

A lot of parents really don't know the most basic of rules. You can hear it in the stands all the time. I had to move locations at the last game I attended. It was just too much to listen to. As the level of play improves, then so too shall the fans knowledge. But my point of the 3d ref is still valid and needs to be considered.
I asked one ref whom had just been told "I got that terrible call on film", why he does ref. He told me for the love of the game. I respect and appreciate that.
I think coaches could do a lot more by talking to the fans at the games, before the game starts. I know that's a semi-crazy idea but it would help protect the refs and keep them coming back.
The money is FAR too little just justify what they put up with.

Or, a better idea than the coaches talking to the fans would be a generic statement over the PA system that is played before every game.

In the spirit of trying to see all sides of the issue...and to perhaps cut the "average" parent a bit of a break; that parent often has to pay the hundreds and even thousands of dollars in orthopedist bills as well as secondarily potentially being a bit concerned about their child's health -- so the yelling in a very physical game might represent a primarily financial as well as a minor tertiary personal concern.

I'd like to see three referees -- but more than that I'd like to see some (not all) referees stop letting kids ride other kids like horses and make a call without needing the evidence of a trail of bloody viscera on the field.

IMO most of the yelling comes from parents that have not spent tons of money on club ball. The club ballers, in general, know a good tackle from a dangerous one, even when it is against their kid. There are of course, very loud exceptions.
I find the thousands comes from playing for clubs. Insurance pays for the injuries, but they're not interested in helpding with the costs for the 90 min drive to practice, not the tournament in Flordia.

A third ref is always available for any HS, as long as your AD insists on one, and is willing to pay the additional expense.

I've never seen 3 at a SC school game,

As far as coaches talking to parents, it is a good idea, I think. I'm really lucky to have a great group of parents who are very supportive of the team and their kids; they bring a lot of much-needed enthusiasm to the game, and like anyone, sometimes a couple may get a little carried away with best intentions. It's just a product of the intensity of the match and wanting to be involved. Still, at a recent game, an official commented to me that the fans were getting a little abusive; it only took a second and a gesture to get them to take it down a notch, and the rest of the game was played out without incident.

Most parents who attend matches are great people who are there to support their teams, not cause problems for the players or coaches; just taking a second to communicate with them about how they can help or potentially hurt can make a lot of difference in the environment of the game.

You have great parents, Coch Chass. We do to.

Farkas: Even though I was attempting (and obviously failed) to be a bit sarcastic about the financial impact being more important than concern about the health of a player, I thought one issue you raised was interesting. "Insurance pays for the injuries..." -- this could be the epitaph for health care in the United States!

sorry, I missed it.

Regarding Parents...

I'll jump in on this one and the role that the coach can play- both for high school and the "club" side of the game. This might be a bit long…..

I've been heard to tell my parents one thing that I like about high school soccer over club soccer is the track. At this point they tend to get a puzzled look on their faces. I then ask "When you get really excited and into a game, just how close to the sideline do you put your chair at club matches?" To which they often reply- "As close as I can without being in the way." To which I reply- "That is what I like about the track." I've had one or two parents get a bit ruffled about this, but mostly they laugh and get the subtle message. I've been told that the players mirror the coaches lead in regards to behavior and what-all, well, I think the same can be true with parents and fans. I too have been VERY FORTUNATE to have great parents for both HS and club ball but I do believe that the parents look to the coach for cues on how to behave and react just like my kids do. If any of my parents are reading this right now they may very well be laughing about “the email” and they will pick at me by saying to one another “Oh goodness, lets don’t do anything to get another email.” Every now and then you will get a true knucklehead parent who just wants to do things his/her way and only see things the way he/she wants to see them – black, white, or red- as the case may be, but all in all I believe that despite all the bad press they may receive—parents are people too. (Yes that is an attempt at sarcasm) Sometimes coaches are not able or willing to jump in when it comes to parents. Sometimes they need to do more than they are.

Basically – What I am trying to do is “ditto” what Coach Chass said, I’m just not doing as good a job at being succinct as he did.

tk

TK—

In my early years of coaching, which also were the early years of the soccer programs, I often turned to my fans/parents and asked for them to back off, not coach or ref—and to inform them "That was not a foul," especially when one was called in our favor.

I think coaches can have positive and direct influences on fans/parents.

Wooooo,
I just had an idea.
Each team is required to have a one evening seiminar for the parents with the team and coaches on the field. Make it a Sat evening before the season starts. Combine it with the team meeting. Show what is a foul (and not), explain off sides, dangerous kick, direct, indirect, yellow, red, as much as you can, have a local ref come out and help. Even expalin game stratigy, where we are with the program, goals,

The yellers...they have yelled since 5 year old rec soccer. I have explained as a ref and coach the rules and offside law and even given handouts. The kids learned and after 10 years understand very well. These individuals just want to yell/vent. Even if the refs were perfect and the players committed no fouls, I believe the yelling would be even more acidic.
I have been summonded to the stands a few times to "explain something to me". Once it was a case of a delayed call I was asked that I "should make the delayed call earlier". To me thats it in a nutshell, refs please advance to 10 seconds in the future and stop the foul so as to stop the injury. If you really wish to ensure safety you will appoint Stephen Hawking as the Big Ref Boss.

[Okay -- sarcasm and trying to be funny switched fully "off."]

I have a bias toward wanting to fix a problem that's been raised, particularly if it is raised repeatedly with no apparent movement toward a solution. There are several issues that I've heard about repeatedly in the years I've paid attention to youth soccer with respect to referees:

• We need money to pay for three referees in high school soccer.
  
• We need three referees in high school soccer [the original post by "Farkus" that got us here.]
  
• We need better (higher quality) referees in high school soccer.
  
• We need more referees in the pool for high school soccer.
  
• We need parents to be more respectful/quieter so we can get more referees in high school soccer.
  

Now, I don't expect that the answer is trivial or it would have been solved already. In terms of the "quality" of referees, I've always thought that this was like everything else -- there are some great ones, some bad ones, and most are good. I've seen relatively few poor referees but as some coaches complained about "mechanical whistle guy" one can make a big impression. But a couple of bad ones doesn't really reflect on the group as a whole -- so I don't think quality is really the issue.

The parents issue gets raised every year and while I don't have a practical (perhaps an ideological, but not a practical) problem enforcing a noise ban, it just doesn't feel like it's the "root" of the problem. Maybe it is -- maybe girls high school soccer parents yell more than high school football, basketball, baseball, or whatever parents -- but it just doesn't feel like a noise ban is going to resolve the oft-raised "we need 3 referees" issue. I absolutely stand ready to be corrected and instructed on the issue, however.

That leaves the following questions. Do we really need three referees in high school soccer to increase the quality and/or decrease the risk of injury? If no, then we can go back to complaining about other things - parents yelling, great teams not ranked, which upstate team will dominate the state in 2009-2010, kick-ball versus long-ball, or whatever. If yes, then the question is what do we do to make it happen. There are two relatively competing theories dueling for primacy of a "root cause": there aren't enough referees or there are enough referees but there isn't enough money. I agree with someone who said that they thought parents would pay to increase quality and/or decrease the risk of injury -- that's why I asked Coach P the questions I did. I think that the money thing can be solved.

If it has to do more with the number of referees in the pool, then the problem has to be attacked in another direction -- in other words, if everyone is trying to get three referees and can't because of the sheer availability, then you have a more difficult (but still potentially solvable) problem.

Anyone want to go on record as to whether (a) we really need three referees to increase the quality of calls and/or decrease injury and then for extra credit if the answer to (a) is "yes" then (b) is the primary root cause a lack of money or a too small referee pool?

Regarding the SIZE of the referee pool--- It seems a logical solution to me to try and recruit some of the 'unemployed' referees that are around during soccer season. Where do all the basketball officials go once basketball season is over? I'm sure there is a list of them somewhere just as there is in soccer. A little more soccer specific training and certification, then an 'apprenticeship' period as an AR before stepping on the field as a CR.

Simple? Probably not. Possible? I don't see why not.

tk

Another possible (partial) solution to the availability issue would be for teams to schedule matches on lower-demand nights to ease the number of officials required at the same time.

Most schools, at least the ones I'm familiar with, are on a default Tuesday/Friday game schedule, which puts a lot of demand on those two nights, leaving a lot of officials with little to do on the other three weeknights. Many teams alternate Thursday and Friday night matches for a number of reasons, which eases the demand at the end of the week, but almost everyone seems to play on Tuesday regardless, which makes it the hardest day to get three officials for everyone who wants them.

If schools could agree to stagger the game schedules a bit more--maybe alternate weeks with Tuesday/Thursday and Wednesday/Friday matches, for example, it would lower the number of officials needed on the same night and allow a smaller pool to still serve a greater number of teams in a week. I've been told that scheduling makeup games on Wednesday is easy, because there is almost certainly no shortage of officials...it's the least-used night of the week. I know that few people like to play on Monday nights...coming off a weekend without a practice to re-focus can sometimes result in some pretty sub-par perfornamces...but we could make better use of Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and Friday to spread games out and reduce single-night demand.

My advice at any rate...if you have a game you feel you really, REALLY need three officials for and aren't sure of getting them, try to reschedule it for a Wednesday night...that's your best bet.

Hope these figures also help to answer the question, "Why do I have to pay to watch my daughter/son play?" At a standard $6 double-header match with a 3-man system, it takes 43 tickets just to break even with the officials alone. Add in the costs of transportation to away matches when we aren't taking in gate and concessions, plus equipment, uniforms, and other fees, and you can see why soccer teams need all the support they can get to stay above the red line.

I understand the "fee" at the gate and that can vary with the game. I'm talking about the parents adding X amount at the beginning of the season to hire the 3d ref. If all the teams did this, then it wouldn't have to be a large increase and we'd, in theory, get a better, safer game.

Right...which would be perfectly legitimate if done through the athletic department and the parents are willing.

OK,
it seems the road block is at the local AD level, but is there no ruling authority over SC prep athletics that can mandate a fee increase (likely paid by the parents)so that all teams must share the costs of the 3d ref? If there is such an authority, then we need the email address and we need to send a lot of email to him/her.

It is funny under a girls forum, starting the whole blog by, discounting girls JV by saying it may be less necassary to do a three man team for Girls JV. JV yes or no, but not a gender split.

JV girls that I've seen is less aggressive play and IMO can be handled by 2 refs, JV boys, no way,
not trying to be biased, just stating an opinion,
JV girls parents would catch a break on the fees.

Shibumi,
here are my answers to your questions, at least a couple of them.

I agree about the quality of the overall pool of referees.

Parents/fans are going to yell and scream no matter what sport it is if they have a vested interest in the game, a child playing or their favorite school. In other sports does the fan yelling cause officials to stop working games? I do not think so. I reffed basketball a couple of seasons and the fans yell at the ref just as much as in soccer but they do not have a problem getting officials. But they have the joy of having a huge pool of players/fans who grew up with the game of basketball and are willing to officiate. We is soccer, hopefully, will start having this luxary soon. Once the young players of today become "adults" and are willing to become officials. I think the "root cause" is not money but lack of officials.

Someone said why do we not just get basketball officials to become soccer referees and teach them the game. I worked, as a referee, with a partner that came to soccer from basketball without any soccer experience. Needless to say it was a very interesting game. I feel that you need some sort of soccer experience to referee. And not just "refereeing from the stands".

Just my thoughts which I am sure are questionable at best since they tend to rumble around in the empty space between my ears.