Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
#103901 05/09/08 01:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170
S
Shibumi Offline OP
coach
OP Offline
coach
S
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170
WARNING -- NOT SOCCER RELATED BUT RAISED EARLIER -- AND ABSOLUTELY ONLY MY OPINION -- WHEN/WHERE I'M WRONG -- I'M THRILLED IF SOMEONE WILL EXPLAIN IT TO ME

KEVIN/KYLE -- IF I'VE SCREWED UP BY PUTTING THIS ON THE SOCCER MESSAGE BOARD, PLEASE DELETE WITH MALICE -- I WAS JUST RESPONDING (my typical excuse! )

>>[Jim Morrison] what is illegal about the american way is that free enterprise monopoly that the oil gods have on us. i bet the gas price will be more of a factor on where kids play rather than the name of the club.
i watch a group of so called experts on tv last and they said nothing has changed as far as the demand for oil since last year.they all said a barrel of oil should be 80 to 90 dollars a barrel.they all agreed there is no reason for the high price.BUSH!!!!<<


I put this in its own thread because I figured the SSC thread has everything and the kitchen sink in it.

Here's a chart from an analyst I trust, that jibes with what the vast majority of economists believe, regarding oil demand.


Here's a more recent chart from an oil-industry analyst-related group that includes projections for the next decade+:



Unfortunately, demand is shown as substantially increasing. Supply has been artificially constrained for two reasons: first because a cartel (OPEC) knows that it can increase its profits that way and secondly because one of the top oil producing nations (the United States) has drastically limited exploration for decades while not pursuing viable alternative energy sources (e.g., nuclear or even greatly increasing coal plants -- both due to environmental and financial concerns.)

Regardless of your political leanings, the solution isn't to demonize Bush (at least for this particular issue -- lots of other issues I'm sure are fair game to demonize Bush on! ) And the solution isn't a repeal of the gas tax since the impact on prices would be next to nothing given increased demand. The solution is either to allow prices to keep increasing so that demand is severely decreased (either naturally due to market forces or artificially through a higher tax rate) and/or to drill more oil domestically and/or to build more alternative energy solutions to increase energy supply exclusive of oil.

I guess what I'm saying is that regardless of your political affiliation or leanings, that you want your person running for office and their party to pursue policies that are a bit deeper than tax holidays, "energy independence" (never been sure what that practically means in a world-wide commodity market), or whatever. Either you want policies that will drive energy prices much higher so that there will be conservation and less energy produced -- or you want policies to produce much more energy. I realize that this is a bit less nuanced than the "solutions" on which our politicians like to try to sell us, but in the end that's pretty much it.

P.S. I do a good bit of business with folks in third-world countries and I invest in energy as well as other sectors. I can tell you that if the United States chooses to decrease its energy consumpion, that China, India, and others will be thrilled -- because it will lower their cost of energy while they are building the capital and intellectual infrastructure to better compete with us. That doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't, but it does mean that people should understand that as our share of worldwide gross revenue and intellectual property shrinks, so will our relative standard of living.

Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
corner kick
Offline
corner kick
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
Good points. It comes down to the American consumers, do we want to pay $5/gallon to drive the SUV to soccer games? Or do we buy a smaller more fuel efficient car and pay $5/gallon. There is a point where we will choose to reduce the amount gas we consume and the supply will increase thus reducing the price. History repeats its self - remember the 1970 gas lines !!!

Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170
S
Shibumi Offline OP
coach
OP Offline
coach
S
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170
KCC: What's so sad about history repeating itself is that it seems endemic to the human condition -- we are the ones that refuse to learn history's lessons. My real point for all of the above was just to note to folks to beware of easy solutions (exactly as you said much more succinctly) -- hard decisions need to be made regarding energy -- don't trust politicians (any of them) that don't step up to address the very hard issues. I would note this -- if environmentalists had associated stock, I'd be selling them short -- I think that the public is going to demand increased energy production and the politicians are going to follow the public on this one.

One other note -- and where the current administration is fair game to blame (or praise, depending on what you believe) here -- the other major reason beyond supply and demand that oil prices have risen is unique to the US -- we've pursued policies that have kept our economy growing at the expense of a "strong dollar policy", i.e., a dollar is worth less on a relative basis to the world than it's been in a long, long time. Since oil is an international commodity, it means it takes more dollars to buy a gallon of oil.

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
Offline
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
I believe it IS fair to blame Bush (or more accurately the Bush administration). . .but not as uniquely to blame.

Capitalism/free market is a double-edged sword. IF we wish to be completely free market, we must be willing to suffer the natural downsides to that ideology. Market forces are amoral, guided by the dynamics of the system and not by any social agreement about "right and wrong."

Americans are quite ignorant about such and always want their cake and eat it too. . .We cheer for Capitalism until it poops on us. . .

If we put ideology aside, it is clear that some balance between free market and socialism (the moral component that pure free market lacks) will best serve a society when addressing large issues such as our ability to continue transportation as we have chosen to create it (American views are different than European views where gas prices have been higher for some time).

The most perplexing irony, of course, is that oil/gas prices are manipulated by those who benefit from it. The political power of the US created the monster that oil has become just as we created Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.

I recommend people read some books by Chris Hedges who argues that humans are trapped by Utopian thinking that keeps us from gaining any real value from the "past." Humans are not progressing forward in any linear way. Each person starts over from scratch and we just keep plowing the same moral (immoral) ground. . .


"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
corner kick
Offline
corner kick
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
I agree completely. You can see the worth of a dollar in overseas investment in the US. With the dollar at its current value it cost BMW less to build a car in the US than in Germany.

Politicians have created themselves as "fix it people". They are all going to correct the problems created by other politicians. With the internet and 24 hour news channels every Tom, Dick, and Harry can convey their idea's to you the voter. I see many young votes who get their news from one source and they believe they are well informed. We are over saturated with bits of news and half truths some of the people are just giving up and not voting. This allows the politicians to zone in on the one left voting to get elected.

Sorry I started rambling and ranting....

Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 473
goal
Offline
goal
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 473
Quote:





Americans are quite ignorant about such and always want their cake and eat it too. . .We cheer for Capitalism until it poops on us. . .


The most perplexing irony, of course, is that oil/gas prices are manipulated by those who benefit from it. The political power of the US created the monster that oil has become just as we created Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.






Did we really create Osama and the likes or did we just tolerate them for our own uses, then when the geopolitical climate changes as they will, they are still the same people but we have just changed how we view them? They are really just behaving like they used to but we are now calling them another name.
Let the markets ride to correct them selves and deal with the consequences.
Your are right, we seem to never have been able to learn from our past.


Joe Siatkowski Mauldin Soccer I fear no evil
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 630
Goal
Offline
Goal
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 630
Quote:

Did we really create Osama and the likes or did we just tolerate them for our own uses, then when the geopolitical climate changes as they will, they are still the same people but we have just changed how we view them?




Interesting. "Freedom Fighters" when they're fighting the USSR in Afghanistan in the 80s and then "Terrorists/Al Qaeda/Taliban in the 00s." I think you are on to something.


Victory Starts Here!
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
Offline
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
I would argue that we DID create them in that we did far more than tolerate—we endorsed because they suited out temporary needs (which we could see because we DO NOT look through a historical lens).

Read the history of Manuel Noriega—same thing.

Without the covert and overt support of all three, they would have never become as powerful as they did.

Our government is merely an extension of us. . .we are victims of our own presentism that is clouded by our Utopian view of the future. . .


"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147
H
brace
Offline
brace
H
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147
i just want my stimulas check.it was suppose to be here today?????

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147
H
brace
Offline
brace
H
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147
11:52 am and oil is at 126$ a barrel right now.

Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 5.4.45 Page Time: 0.057s Queries: 35 (0.016s) Memory: 3.2137 MB (Peak: 3.5866 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-05-13 12:24:45 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS