|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170
coach
|
OP
coach
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170 |
WARNING -- NOT SOCCER RELATED BUT RAISED EARLIER -- AND ABSOLUTELY ONLY MY OPINION -- WHEN/WHERE I'M WRONG -- I'M THRILLED IF SOMEONE WILL EXPLAIN IT TO ME KEVIN/KYLE -- IF I'VE SCREWED UP BY PUTTING THIS ON THE SOCCER MESSAGE BOARD, PLEASE DELETE WITH MALICE -- I WAS JUST RESPONDING (my typical excuse!  ) >>[Jim Morrison] what is illegal about the american way is that free enterprise monopoly that the oil gods have on us. i bet the gas price will be more of a factor on where kids play rather than the name of the club.
i watch a group of so called experts on tv last and they said nothing has changed as far as the demand for oil since last year.they all said a barrel of oil should be 80 to 90 dollars a barrel.they all agreed there is no reason for the high price.BUSH!!!!<<I put this in its own thread because I figured the SSC thread has everything and the kitchen sink in it. Here's a chart from an analyst I trust, that jibes with what the vast majority of economists believe, regarding oil demand.  Here's a more recent chart from an oil-industry analyst-related group that includes projections for the next decade+:  Unfortunately, demand is shown as substantially increasing. Supply has been artificially constrained for two reasons: first because a cartel (OPEC) knows that it can increase its profits that way and secondly because one of the top oil producing nations (the United States) has drastically limited exploration for decades while not pursuing viable alternative energy sources (e.g., nuclear or even greatly increasing coal plants -- both due to environmental and financial concerns.) Regardless of your political leanings, the solution isn't to demonize Bush (at least for this particular issue -- lots of other issues I'm sure are fair game to demonize Bush on! ) And the solution isn't a repeal of the gas tax since the impact on prices would be next to nothing given increased demand. The solution is either to allow prices to keep increasing so that demand is severely decreased (either naturally due to market forces or artificially through a higher tax rate) and/or to drill more oil domestically and/or to build more alternative energy solutions to increase energy supply exclusive of oil. I guess what I'm saying is that regardless of your political affiliation or leanings, that you want your person running for office and their party to pursue policies that are a bit deeper than tax holidays, "energy independence" (never been sure what that practically means in a world-wide commodity market), or whatever. Either you want policies that will drive energy prices much higher so that there will be conservation and less energy produced -- or you want policies to produce much more energy. I realize that this is a bit less nuanced than the "solutions" on which our politicians like to try to sell us, but in the end that's pretty much it. P.S. I do a good bit of business with folks in third-world countries and I invest in energy as well as other sectors. I can tell you that if the United States chooses to decrease its energy consumpion, that China, India, and others will be thrilled -- because it will lower their cost of energy while they are building the capital and intellectual infrastructure to better compete with us. That doesn't necessarily mean we shouldn't, but it does mean that people should understand that as our share of worldwide gross revenue and intellectual property shrinks, so will our relative standard of living.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322 |
Good points. It comes down to the American consumers, do we want to pay $5/gallon to drive the SUV to soccer games? Or do we buy a smaller more fuel efficient car and pay $5/gallon. There is a point where we will choose to reduce the amount gas we consume and the supply will increase thus reducing the price. History repeats its self - remember the 1970 gas lines !!! 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170
coach
|
|
OP
coach
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170 |
KCC: What's so sad about history repeating itself is that it seems endemic to the human condition -- we are the ones that refuse to learn history's lessons. My real point for all of the above was just to note to folks to beware of easy solutions (exactly as you said much more succinctly) -- hard decisions need to be made regarding energy -- don't trust politicians (any of them) that don't step up to address the very hard issues. I would note this -- if environmentalists had associated stock, I'd be selling them short -- I think that the public is going to demand increased energy production and the politicians are going to follow the public on this one.
One other note -- and where the current administration is fair game to blame (or praise, depending on what you believe) here -- the other major reason beyond supply and demand that oil prices have risen is unique to the US -- we've pursued policies that have kept our economy growing at the expense of a "strong dollar policy", i.e., a dollar is worth less on a relative basis to the world than it's been in a long, long time. Since oil is an international commodity, it means it takes more dollars to buy a gallon of oil.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
I believe it IS fair to blame Bush (or more accurately the Bush administration). . .but not as uniquely to blame.
Capitalism/free market is a double-edged sword. IF we wish to be completely free market, we must be willing to suffer the natural downsides to that ideology. Market forces are amoral, guided by the dynamics of the system and not by any social agreement about "right and wrong."
Americans are quite ignorant about such and always want their cake and eat it too. . .We cheer for Capitalism until it poops on us. . .
If we put ideology aside, it is clear that some balance between free market and socialism (the moral component that pure free market lacks) will best serve a society when addressing large issues such as our ability to continue transportation as we have chosen to create it (American views are different than European views where gas prices have been higher for some time).
The most perplexing irony, of course, is that oil/gas prices are manipulated by those who benefit from it. The political power of the US created the monster that oil has become just as we created Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.
I recommend people read some books by Chris Hedges who argues that humans are trapped by Utopian thinking that keeps us from gaining any real value from the "past." Humans are not progressing forward in any linear way. Each person starts over from scratch and we just keep plowing the same moral (immoral) ground. . .
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322 |
I agree completely. You can see the worth of a dollar in overseas investment in the US. With the dollar at its current value it cost BMW less to build a car in the US than in Germany. Politicians have created themselves as "fix it people". They are all going to correct the problems created by other politicians. With the internet and 24 hour news channels every Tom, Dick, and Harry can convey their idea's to you the voter. I see many young votes who get their news from one source and they believe they are well informed. We are over saturated with bits of news and half truths some of the people are just giving up and not voting. This allows the politicians to zone in on the one left voting to get elected. Sorry I started rambling and ranting.... 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 473
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 473 |
Quote:
Americans are quite ignorant about such and always want their cake and eat it too. . .We cheer for Capitalism until it poops on us. . .
The most perplexing irony, of course, is that oil/gas prices are manipulated by those who benefit from it. The political power of the US created the monster that oil has become just as we created Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein.
Did we really create Osama and the likes or did we just tolerate them for our own uses, then when the geopolitical climate changes as they will, they are still the same people but we have just changed how we view them? They are really just behaving like they used to but we are now calling them another name.
Let the markets ride to correct them selves and deal with the consequences.
Your are right, we seem to never have been able to learn from our past.
Joe Siatkowski
Mauldin Soccer
I fear no evil
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 630
Goal
|
|
Goal
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 630 |
Quote:
Did we really create Osama and the likes or did we just tolerate them for our own uses, then when the geopolitical climate changes as they will, they are still the same people but we have just changed how we view them?
Interesting. "Freedom Fighters" when they're fighting the USSR in Afghanistan in the 80s and then "Terrorists/Al Qaeda/Taliban in the 00s." I think you are on to something.
Victory Starts Here!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
I would argue that we DID create them in that we did far more than tolerate—we endorsed because they suited out temporary needs (which we could see because we DO NOT look through a historical lens).
Read the history of Manuel Noriega—same thing.
Without the covert and overt support of all three, they would have never become as powerful as they did.
Our government is merely an extension of us. . .we are victims of our own presentism that is clouded by our Utopian view of the future. . .
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147 |
i just want my stimulas check.it was suppose to be here today?????
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147 |
11:52 am and oil is at 126$ a barrel right now.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322 |
Jim, I got my check and it will not even pay for HS soccer travel let alone Club travel. I am sure I will pay for this "stimulus" check sometime after November !! 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 404
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 404 |
Quote:
If we put ideology aside, it is clear that some balance between free market and socialism (the moral component that pure free market lacks)...
I think you would find that many people would disagree that a political/economic system that confiscates wealth from those who earned it, and transfers it against their will to those who haven't (socialism), represents a "moral" component.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
Of course they would because they—as I noted—don't understand any of these terms. Most Americans have simplistic and distorted views of "Capitalism" and "Socialism"—along with dozens of other terms.
I would add "moral" to that list. It is easy to reject the complaint you raise, however, by noting that such redistribution of wealth IS an attempt to be moral within a system that has NO regard for whether or not people deserve the accident of their births either into wealth or poverty.
Anyone who believes that any system of government PRACTICED historically or today is a fair representation of any theory is mistaken.
Your hypothetical "disagreement" is a game that simpletons play (such as Rush Limbaugh or Anne Coulter). Here is the game:
(1) Define an idea or group of people.
(2) Attack the DEFINITION you have established.
(3) Don't allow anyone time to check the definition.
Thus, IF socialism IS "a political/economic system that confiscates wealth from those who earned it, and transfers it against their will to those who haven't," THEN this would be a fair disagreement. However, the definition is flawed, thus the entire disagreement falls apart.
In a democracy that has socialistic components (such as the US—highways, military, judicial system, public education. . .), the socialism is the result of the will of the people participating in that democracy; thus, nothing is "confiscated."
If, however, one wishes to attack totalitarian forms of government (often called "socialistic," "communistic," or some other label associated with Marxist ideas) that DO confiscate capital and freedom for the elite to enjoy only, then you got a good disagreement on your hands!
If we in this country are unhappy with the tax system (and I am, and we should be), then since it is a system WE created, WE can change it.
And if we wish to obliterate ALL socialism, then we might need to hurry because it will be hard for many of us to get to the polling booths without any roads or highways, without any military to insure we have a democracy, without any police force to help keep our lives somewhat safe. . .
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322 |
Capitalism morality or Moral Capitalism ? If we strive to be Capitalist then we must also strive to be moral? With religious freedom whose morals do "the capitalist" follow? The stockholders are not investing in our company we must increase the bottom line. "Increase the bottom line by sending this set of jobs overseas at a cheaper rate". Which is the moral answer? 1. Don't worry about America jobs the government will help retrain them. 2. The 3rd world counties need jobs to become self sufficient and thus reducing US aid. Where to from here ?? 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
Morality is above any religion.
In a country respecting religious freedom (we say we do. . .but we don't!) and even being irreligious, we can and must have MORAL barometers, but they must not be bound to simple religion.
And morality should never be reduced to dualities, as your example does. The MORAL answer may be addressing both without falling victim to believing one discounts the other.
Morality is hard. . .
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659
world cup
|
|
world cup
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659 |
Kyle, Need to add a new forum to the message board. Call it either: "Shibumi's Playhouse" or "Cat's Cradle" A place where the inellectuals can go to wax philosophical. I think it would provide a good service. Add another one while you are at it: "Junior's Garage" A forum for discussing popular culture or whatever else creeps into the twisted minds of some of our less-intellectually inclined posters! 
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170
coach
|
|
OP
coach
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If we put ideology aside, it is clear that some balance between free market and socialism (the moral component that pure free market lacks)...Quote:
I think you would find that many people would disagree that a political/economic system that confiscates wealth from those who earned it, and transfers it against their will to those who haven't (socialism), represents a "moral" component.
Thus, IF socialism IS "a political/economic system that confiscates wealth from those who earned it, and transfers it against their will to those who haven't," THEN this would be a fair disagreement. However, the definition is flawed, thus the entire disagreement falls apart.
Encyclopedia Brittanica: socialism is a "system of social organization in which property and the distribution of income are subject to social control rather than individual determination or market forces."
Common definitions of confiscate:
- surrendered as a penalty
- appropriated: taken without permission or consent especially by public authority; "the condemned land was used for a highway cloverleaf"; "the confiscated liquor was poured down the drain"
- impound: take temporary possession of as a security, by legal authority; "The FBI seized the drugs"; "The customs agents impounded the illegal shipment"; "The police confiscated the stolen artwork"
I don't understand where "HappyDaddy" is wrong here, particularly since living in a democracy doesn't mean that you are forfeiting the right to your own individual will and ability to give consent (see bullet 2). Perhaps you could specifically explain and enlighten us; there's no doubt that I at least could really be missing something here.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170
coach
|
|
OP
coach
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170 |
Hurst66: Some of us (me!!!!!!!!!!!!) are trying to get past the pain of the high school playoffs and are burying our true feelings by over-intellectualizing on ANY subject we possibly can EXCEPT for high school soccer!!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659
world cup
|
|
world cup
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659 |
I live in Junior's Garage too.
Hurst66: Seen any good movies lately?
Kwai: Juno's available for rental, seen that one yet?
Hurst66: No. Heard a couple songs from the soundtrack.
Kwai: It's not bad....check it out.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147 |
"I BELIEVE IN A LONG,PROLONGED,DERANGEMENT OF THE SENSES IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE UNKNOWN" THE LIZARD KING
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170
coach
|
|
OP
coach
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170 |
Morality and religion.
Just so that we can go back to first principles, let's work through some definitions.
Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is the learning process of distinguishing between virtues and vices. Generally speaking, morals are basic guidelines for behavior intended to reduce suffering in living populations.
A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law.
As someone who has superficially studied any number of religions, I don't find them to be particularly "simple." Nor do I find morality to be simple, nor do I find the two easily divorced from one another.
The problem I have with religion, or morals, are people who use them to bludgeon others with the parts that they pick that are convenient to what they want to do. This can apply to Islamic terrorists or the Christian right or the secular left.
As a simple example, I find it absurd that there are so many people who profess to be Christians who believe in the death penalty. Then again, I find it equally absurd that those that are the most against the death penalty are quite often so in favor of on-demand abortions. These are difficult questions. It would seem to me that those "Thou shall not kill" is both a religious and a moral absolute. But many, if not most, of the population (and the present state of laws in this democratic country) disagree that the two are either completely right or completely wrong.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322 |
"The crystal ship is being filled A thousand girls, a thousand thrills A million ways to spend your time When we get back, Ill drop a line" The Doors - pick your own crystal ship..... 
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170
coach
|
|
OP
coach
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170 |
Quote:
Capitalism morality or Moral Capitalism ? If we strive to be Capitalist then we must also strive to be moral? With religious freedom whose morals do "the capitalist" follow?
The stockholders are not investing in our company we must increase the bottom line. "Increase the bottom line by sending this set of jobs overseas at a cheaper rate".
Which is the moral answer?
1. Don't worry about America jobs the government will help retrain them.
2. The 3rd world counties need jobs to become self sufficient and thus reducing US aid.
Where to from here ??
KCC: I respectfully disagree with the incredibly informed and wise cat. Reducing problems to dualities is useful in terms of our understanding of issues; however, once we've examined a problem in an "either/or" manner, it's pretty important to look at the "and" and "instead" modes of thought as well.
If we take morality as a system which attempts to alleviate the greatest suffering of the greatest number of people, then the most important thing to do is to help those less fortunate than us, even if they live outside of the United States. Thus the latter of your statements.
If we take morality as a system which attempts to alleviate the greatest suffering of people in the United States, the question is more difficult -- and absolutely debatable -- but I believe that as capitalism is practiced in the United States that it is still more important to practice global trade and reduce barriers. I once got the opportunity to have dinner with a Nobel-prize winning economist (not an American) who remarked that much of the suffering in the last century was due to tarrifs and restricted trade and then went on to very forcefully argue his points.
However, in the end, I'm glad we live in a society which is mostly capitalistic but with some remnants of socialism (the social safety net, for example.) So I like the fact that the creative destruction of capitalism has a pinch of job training in it.
One of the greatest moral issues in religion can be codified as who your neighbor is that you are supposed to love.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147 |
"THE FUTURE'S UNCERTAIN AND THE END IS ALWAYS NEAR" MORRISON
a good quote for the ft mill/dorman fans
Last edited by Jim Morrison; 05/09/08 05:36 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659
world cup
|
|
world cup
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659 |
I have been waiting for a discussion on Capitalism vs. Christianity for years!
Rock on Shibumi! This is GOOD STUFF!
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322 |
Jim, The whole verse reminds of those college days with the world ahead..... "Well, I woke up this morning, I got myself a beer Well, I woke up this morning, and I got myself a beer The future's uncertain, and the end is always near" 
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
Add another one while you are at it:
"Junior's Garage"
A forum for discussing popular culture or whatever else creeps into the twisted minds of some of our less-intellectually inclined posters!
And trapdoor spiders. Never forget about the trapdoor spiders.
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322 |
Quote:
One of the greatest moral issues in religion can be codified as who your neighbor is that you are supposed to love.
What is the moral answer!
1. Thanks for the information to get the big insurance payout the church will use this to help the community.
2. Thanks for the info but it will cause other people to lose their jobs.
Morality is an individual notion that what we do will help ourselves and others fairly.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
Sorry to those who don't enjoy; but for me, a great thread.
I am a John Dewey type, thus philosophically, I reject "either/or" thinking.
I also come from a personal foundation that early on faced the reality that Jesus/Christianity has far more in common with pure communism/Marxism than Capitalism. "Lay down your worldly possessions and follow me." "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and to God, God."
I was arguing earlier about the common perception of socialism, the practical application of socialism, and the "theory" socialism. I was actually making a case for the three being out of sync—but also I was making a case that in the good ol' U. S. of A. than NO ONE is having their money "confiscated." And if any want to associate socialism IN OUR COUNTRY with totalitarian versions of Communism. . .well, he/she has a weak case.
In the U.S., if you do not want to pay taxes, thus do not want to participate in the socialism of our country, either vote and have that changed or leave; you are FREE to do both.
Communism and socialism HAVE been practiced in totalitarian regimes; but the immorality of those examples are the totalitarian elements—not the communism/socialism.
And on the other note. . .
One can be moral and not be religious.
One can be religious and not moral. (Ex., Southern Baptists, as a denomination, was formed as a stance for the institution of slavery.)
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
And, completely selfishly and thus on thin moral ice, I am glad I don't have to buy gas to fund my daughter's club life anymore. . .Jesus, that was expensive when I did it (1999-2007). . .don't want even to think about doing it now!
(Does that help pull this back to a soccer thread?)
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659
world cup
|
|
world cup
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659 |
cat, I'm not being sarcastic.....kudos on the discussion. I'm serious as a heart attack in my recommendation that Kyle add an "Off Topic" (to borrow from NC) forum to the message boards. These conversations are beneficial, educating and stimulating. My monthly issue of Mental Floss only takes me so far. We all could use more mental gymnastics.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
Hurst66:
I didn't doubt you—just talked with a colleague at lunch about this scsoccer.com thread discussion being serious and thoughtful. . .moreso than some of the "academic" discussions I have!
I just happen to write a great deal about these topics—and address them in my courses. I am always struggling with these topics—and appreciate the thread being started with such an excellent and concrete basis (thanks, Shibumi. . .).
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 322 |
Quote:
One can be religious and not moral. (Ex., Southern Baptists, as a denomination, was formed as a stance for the institution of slavery.)
Was Martin Luther moral when he nailed the 95 theses to the church door? Rebellious morality seems to have a place in this world today. I rebel on the grounds my ideal is the moral answer.
(soccer insert here)
The player was in the offside position and you the moral ref should disallow the goal..
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147 |
Hurst you beat me to the point... How does religion, morality, Baptist, dualism, socialism, capitalism, communism, Islam have anything to do with Club Soccer & ODP! I am sure the internet world has plenty of space for Non Soccer discussion; we definitely don't need a new one. I am neither a philosopher nor a religious nut. On the other hand I firmly believe BIG clubs are capitalistic in taking over other areas like Summerville and Columbia; I do religiously practice the sport of soccer.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659
world cup
|
|
world cup
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659 |
You, dbsandis.....certainly belong in Junior's Garage! 
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
KCC:
ML certainly believed his act to be moral; and many contemporary figures felt morality had to be embodied in an act: MLK Jr., Gandhi. . .
One of my personal guides, Paulo Freire, argued this. (Stinking Marxist, he.)
dbsandis:
The threads arguing about BIG soccer clubs have always been, in essence, a debate about Capitalism and morality.
Take it a step further: IF we impose Capitalism on soccer, then we must give power to the customer ("The customer is always right."). Now, how does coach expertise exist in a market-based dynamic? The paradox. If the soccer customer hires a coach to do the customer's bidding, then the money is wasted since the coach isn't allowed to exercise her/his expertise. . .
Such was the case when medical doctors abdicated their expertise to their "customers" who demanded to be given antibiotics when they didn't need them—in effect, creating an unsafe environment for the community because the whims of the individual were fulfilled (without regard to morality—a social norm).
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147 |
Quote:
You, dbsandis.....certainly belong in Junior's Garage!
So be it! YES there is plenty of Philosophy, Psychology, Moral majority discussion through-out the world, just not enough SOCCER people.
Quote:
The threads arguing about BIG soccer clubs have always been, in essence, a debate about Capitalism and morality.
How does capitalism become a morality issue?
Quote:
Take it a step further: IF we impose Capitalism on soccer, then we must give power to the customer
In capitalism, competition dictates, the customer is not always right, and may not know what they want, and salesmen are they moral?
Last edited by dbsandis; 05/09/08 07:54 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
And let's not forget:
The PRIMARY argument against SOCCER in these here parts was this (I heard it for decades from the AD/head f'ball coach of my high school. . .):
"Soccer is a communist sport!"
AND, how is is about morality?
The griping about CESA has often been about "It's not fair. . ." a cry for moral balance. . .in the face of market forces (Does CESA get players because they offer a better product or because they have an unfair advantage over the "little guy"?).
Last edited by cat's cradle; 05/09/08 07:56 PM.
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147 |
Quote:
And let's not forget:
The PRIMARY argument against SOCCER in these here parts was this (I heard it for decades from the AD/head f'ball coach of my high school. . .):
"Soccer is a communist sport!"
TRUE - It's the only TEAM sport
It's a sport where you have no single player that can single handily dictate the outcome (as long as the opposing team is a worthwhile opponent). Each player & coach should function as a well oiled machine. American football you have multiple teams, American Baseball revolves around the pitcher and each batter. During a soccer match, the TEAM.. executes on the field without time-outs/coaching.
Last edited by dbsandis; 05/09/08 10:06 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,457
Hat-Trick
|
|
Hat-Trick
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,457 |
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147 |
Quote:
It is a player's game.
Yet, we blame the COACH, the OFFICIAL, or the PARENTS causing a TEAM to lose. The TEAM (player) is never blamed. Of course mostly the OFFICIALS are to blame.
Now we are taking this subject on a tangent...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
If the price of a barrel of oil falls in a desert and there is no American there to hear it, does it make a noise?
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Scary that we've somehow gotten to the point where "There is no shortage, we've just decided to charge you more" is now apparently an acceptable answer.
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 272
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 272 |
Quote:
Scary that we've somehow gotten to the point where "There is no shortage, we've just decided to charge you more" is now apparently an acceptable answer.
That's called investing in the "futures market." Purchase now- oil that has not even been pumped out of the ground yet just to make some money off the price differential- then vs. now. Just like "pork bellies" it is often more about investment and perceived possible return on investment than actual market conditions. Buy a barrel now for $126-- Sell it next week/month/year for more than the $126 and you make a nice return on investment.
Not the only reason for high gas prices, but a definite contributor.
tk
Tony King
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147 |
Now what does that have to do with price of Tea in CHINA?
For at least 34 years we new this day was arriving. Remember the 1974 oil crisis. Yet we the government for the people did NOTHING. Our CAPITALITIC oil companies also have done NOTHING! Both packed with bureacracy, ahh the american way. (Have to love it, and yes still better than the rest of the world)
On the other hand though, the US now has better soccer playing. In high school I played FUTSAL soccer in Brazil. About the time PELE came to the US, I moved to Iowa. where I was forced to play basketball, no soccer available. Now 34 years later, most if not all High Schools have soccer. Something the oil companies should learn from. They have refused to develop refineries, refused to develop shale oil, and even refuse to drill for oil in our territories Of course we let CHINA drill in the Gulf of Mexico.
I am one gratefull for our Soccer visionaries that have created the club environment to teach all soccer.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
I am one gratefull for our Soccer visionaries that have created the club environment to teach all soccer.
Although I wonder if these visionaries foresaw an environment in which fuel prices were a serious consideration in whether a player participates in "traveling soccer"?
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429 |
What a great thread!!!! I have a handful of buddies from high school (30+ years ago) and we stay in touch via email and argue/debate everything from religion to politics to literature to springsteen vs the doors vs zeppelin. This reminds me a little of that.
Shortage? We ain't got no stinkin' shortage? Right....
The American consumer has benefitted for years by cheap consumer goods coming from places like China. Now the chickens are coming home to roost, as Shibumi's opening graph shows.
America's economy is essentially flat and in pure American style assume everyone's economy is flat therefore how can there be increased demand. Yet companies like Caterpillar, who export over 50% of their sales, are booming with record profits...and declining NAFTA sales. Hmm.....
The developing world is now competing with America for an essentially stable supply. Globally demand for food, energy, steel, basic minerals etc etc etc.....are going thru the roof with prices following. The price of steel scrap now exceeds the price of basic hot rolled steel form a couple of years ago. Steel.....has more than doubled in cost over the last 2-3 years. Oil.....has exploded in price. What was the Obama quote about fancy salad stuff?
Corn is being diverted from food to methanol...prices of chemicals are going thru the roof because of the demand for fertilizer.
Basic economic principle....what happens when demand exceeds supply?
Other basic economic principle....who invests in businesses where returns don't justify the investment?
Why bust "Big Oil" for not drilling down into things like shale oil or refinery capacity? We as consumers benefited with a gas pump price that was largely flat for years and years. But....oil companies hardly benefitted from that. If you went back and looked at Exxon's profit picture as compared to ......say Duke Power, Microsoft, Wachovia....for years 1996-2005 my guess is you'd find a profit picture that isn't that great. Are they making money hand over fist now? Heck ya!!! Go look at Nucor while your at it. But when they are making marginal profits is i reaosnable to expect them to be making huge investments in R&D or capacity? Great companies will...but how many great companies are there (or people, soccer clubs, etc).
And speaking of doing nothing.....raise your hands if you (like me) have bought an SUV in the last 5 years? Big butted, gas guzzling vehicle. We love it. But in a time of $4-5 per galon gas.....is that smart?
Guess its easier to blame George Bush or Exxon or Southern Baptists.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
And of course, who contributed largely to the increased global demand?
We did, naturally. Pursuit of a manifest destiny of spreading American-style culture to all the "dark places in the world" (a quote from the days of British imperialism, if you'll excuse me) we've done all we can to make other, less "civilized" places more and more like us...which means they are now competing for the same resources that we have previously dominated.
Still, the increased demand hasn't necessarily created a "shortage" in the sense that supply can't keep up...it's just created more of a seller's market, which oil producers are taking full advantage of at the expense of the consumer. They can produce plenty of oil to meet the demand, but why go the extra stretch to do it when they can produce the same or less, charge more, and have more global consumers to compete for their business, driving their profit margins through the roof? So what if the American economy fails...there are now plenty of other customers to fill the demand.
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147 |
Now 34 years later, it appears we have the same mentality. Why invest today, since it won't create a return for years. Had the government, oil corporations, the Wal-Mart’s had a vision, they would invest. Look at JAPAN they don't expect a profit for years after their initial investment. Other countries (Brazil) have governments subsidized the development of Ethanol from sugar cane (which they have an abundant supply), and now they are no longer dependent on foreign oil. And they actually have oil refineries (best in the world) that take imported oil, produce gasoline/diesel and sell it on the world market. A gallon of ethanol in Brazil cost's less than a dollar. It does not cut into their food supply. On another note they have finally stabilized their money, and probably the richest third world country. All the investment occurred because Brazil had a vision for their country. We need to envision the next 20 years, and determine the direction of our country. Of course I don't believe anyone in politics (republican/democrats) today is even remotely concerned about 20 years from now.
We also need to develop more local soccer teams, we only have 5 clubs in the low-country and only 5 clubs in the mid-lands. I think the number should increase, not be consolidated. That creates more competition, more on the american capitalistic way.
Also North East Columbia would benefit with a more local club, and not have to share fields 30 miles away! Both CESA and CUFC are centered in the IRMO-Ballentine area; Lexington is also closer to Irmo. If I'm not mistaken Congaree is in that area also. My daughter received a card today from CESA-COLUMBIA, and was interested until I found out we still have to drive 30-40 miles to get to practice. I don't mind playing out-of town games, but we should have 5 days of practice locally. Florence is too distant, Luggoff-Elgin-Camden have no offering. Who is willing to step up and create/develop a mid-lands EAST club!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429 |
Brasil has one of the weirdest economies in the world and you can't benchmark them against anyone else. We (my company) have a large presence there.....and cost benchmarking is seen as an exercise in futility.
Americans need to suck it up and get used to $5/gallon gas. Europeans have dealt with it forever.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659
world cup
|
|
world cup
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659 |
Hey Daddy,
Can I get those six weeks of "holiday" that those Europeans get too?
Of course, with gas at $5/gallon, I won't be able to afford to go anywhere.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
European economic and social structure is also very different from ours; they are not as affected by fuel prices as an economy based on moving goods and people over wide areas like ours. Comparing their fuel prices to ours is almost apples to oranges; we are not set up to just "deal with it."
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147 |
Quote:
Brasil has one of the weirdest economies in the world and you can't benchmark them against anyone else. We (my company) have a large presence there.....and cost benchmarking is seen as an exercise in futility.
Americans need to suck it up and get used to $5/gallon gas. Europeans have dealt with it forever.
Yes, During the military regime..inflation was 20-40% monthly. Once democracy took over, and new president had a tightening of prices, imports etc. They started taking off. They do get hurt directly by our economy, since most of the outside investment is stateside. But they are a major hub for all the SA countries. 5 years ago the dollar was 1 to 3 reais, today it roaming around 1.5. I had about 300 reais in my drawer and expected it to be worth less today, I actually made out and basically doubled my money by having it my drawer. I work for a large corporation (90000 worldwide) that literally has no presence in Brazil. They have invested heavily in Europe, and several SA countries, but not Brazil. My goal is to get them to invest in Brazil.
Brazil's constitution is based on ours, yet they mimic more an European flavor of economy. They are a federal republic, the elite are the top 5% with a major gap in the middle class. The lower class are fully supported by the goverment AKA Canadian socialism.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429 |
db,
my company has a huge presence there and not a lot flows out, cpaital wise. Not sure all the reasons.....but pretty sure a good bit of the profit has to stay in the country.
importing and exporting is not a cut and dried thing. very regulated economy.
I've met a bunch of brasilians over the years....one of them wasn't of german heritage.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429 |
Coach I don't understand your point at all. Europeans are very trade oriented and I don'tknow that the European Union is a whole lot smaller than what the typical North American traverses.
In fact, most of the Europeans I know are FAR more traveled than the average American.
Europeans deal with things like higher tax rates and outrageous gas prices by having smaller, less ostentatious lifestyles and by driving smaller, far more fuel efficient cars.
The average South Carolinian whose kid plays for CESA or Bridge or CUFC or Discoveries or Mount Pleasant....is probably living on a house at least 3000 sq feet and driving something along the lines of a Suburban or some other oversized gas guzzler.
The middle class professionals that I know in Germany live in apartments or 1800 sq foot homes and drive 300 series beemers or vw equivalents with a turbocharged diesel engine.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147 |
Quote:
db,
my company has a huge presence there and not a lot flows out, cpaital wise. Not sure all the reasons.....but pretty sure a good bit of the profit has to stay in the country.
importing and exporting is not a cut and dried thing. very regulated economy.
I've met a bunch of brasilians over the years....one of them wasn't of german heritage.
By the way I'm not Brazilian; my parents took me to Brazil when I was 8 months old. I regularly go to Brazil to visit my parents. They have celebrated 60 years in Brazil. My dad is 90, and as a pioneer missionary has help establish over 600 churches in Brazil. In fact he is currently working with several foundations to help establish schools through out Brazil. I know how the economy works in Brazil, and for years laws prevented importation/exportation. One example is when Pele was asked to come stateside to help develop soccer. The country made him a national treasury. The US had to negotiate with the government for him to leave. During the initial PC explosion, Brazil wanted to develop their own chips, and were successful, but never allowed newer technology to be brought in to the country. In recent years they have opened up more. They are considered part of the BRIC countries, and are in process of developing digital cities in several metropolitan areas. (A good friend of mine is in charge of this digital city in Brasilia) The purpose of these cities is to help establish companies within Brazil to help support the Latin American countries, and the world AKA India system.
Exportations is highly regulated, but if you know the right people, you can get things through. That is one aspect of the goverment that has not changed.
Last edited by dbsandis; 05/11/08 01:32 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
BD,
For one thing, it's that same ostentatious consumerism you mention that fuels (no pun intended) our economy. Smaller, more conservative lifestyles means less buying and spending, which means less demand for consumer goods, which means...well, I imagine you do understand at this point where I'm going. Much of our commerce today involves goods and services that people buy simply because they CAN afford them. Decrease demand for these products in order to afford gas, and you decrease the need for jobs to produce them, revenue and taxes from selling them, etc. I'm not saying we couldn't get by without these things like the Europeans do; I'm saying the way we're currently structured, we've grown socially and economically dependent on them.
We've also become dependent on transportation to balance (1) the ideal location of our homes and (2) having the ideal job. Seldom do the two occur within a mile of each other in sprawling America. We're a nation of suburbs where it's not uncommon for people to drive 20-40 miles round trip per day to work, part of the way through gas-guzzling traffic. I personally have a 35-mile round trip commute, and I know many at my school who travel considerably farther. Outside of major cities, we don't have the kind of public transportation system to handle these commutes. Therefore, rising gas prices have a higher effect on the commuter in suburban America than on Europeans who either live in the cities with public transportation, or who live in small towns and villages that are more or less self-contained and who seldom go to the neighboring towns or cities except on special occasions.
Free-spirited tourism is also a part of our culture, and much of that is dependent on the ability of the family to jump in the station wagon (ok, updated since National Lampoon's Vacation to the SUV) and drive the kids to Wally World, or the adults to the resort, or the Grand Canyon, or whatever. The bulk of American tourism is based on automobile traffic, not mass transit such as airlines or trains. Therefore, the individual consumer in America is hit harder by travel expenses and is less likely to vacation than the European who has been used to jumping on a bus or a train and sharing the expense with dozens of others, and therefore our tourism industry takes a bigger hit when fuel prices rise.
As for trade, we are also in the habit of shipping more common goods over greater overland distances; European production tends to be somewhat more localized. You can find oranges from California in your South Carolina grocery store anytime you want; hammocks made on Pawley's Island are shipped to Colorado, huge farms and dairies ship meat, veggies, and milk in all directions...local mom'n'pop businesses have been all but eliminated in favor of production giants that are dependent on...you guessed it...shipping. Europeans are very trade-oriented, yes, but check the European road systems and compare their average overland shipments to the vast fleets of 18-wheelers pounding our highways in this country who are now looking at double the fuel expenses of just a couple of years ago. Since very few things are locally made or grown, when fuel and shipping go up, prices of almost everything go up.
Perhaps if not apples to oranges, at least a Macintosh to Granny Smith comparison...you mention most of the Europeans YOU know being far more traveled than the AVERAGE American. This is not necessarily evidence that the AVERAGE European is FAR more traveled than the AVERAGE American...just the ones who are worldly enough to have come in contact with you. Besides, we don't consider Americans "well-traveled" because they've been to the neighboring state--even though in some cases that trip may match or exceed the mileage required to see three or four European countries.
I agree in some cases about the stereotypical "club soccer family" with the big suburban home with the big Suburban gas-guzzler, but as soccer expands and gains popularity as a sport, more and more "average" athletes and families are becoming involved--some of whom have to take the difference in gas prices into account when deciding if they can travel to practices several times a week and games halfway across the state, no matter what they drive. It would be a shame to see soccer get even more of a reputation as an "exclusive" sport because only the elite can afford the transportation required to participate in club.
I was very brief before because I was pressed for time...I apologize if my previous lack of detail hindered your understanding of my point.
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 1,147 |
Quote:
Coach I don't understand your point at all. Europeans are very trade oriented and I don'tknow that the European Union is a whole lot smaller than what the typical North American traverses.
In fact, most of the Europeans I know are FAR more traveled than the average American.
Europeans deal with things like higher tax rates and outrageous gas prices by having smaller, less ostentatious lifestyles and by driving smaller, far more fuel efficient cars.
The average South Carolinian whose kid plays for CESA or Bridge or CUFC or Discoveries or Mount Pleasant....is probably living on a house at least 3000 sq feet and driving something along the lines of a Suburban or some other oversized gas guzzler.
The middle class professionals that I know in Germany live in apartments or 1800 sq foot homes and drive 300 series beemers or vw equivalents with a turbocharged diesel engine.
my house is 2100 sq feet and i drive a saturn.there is the saturn again morabito
i live south of the river.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
There is an increasing buzz that oil supplies are not finite. . .in opposition to the scientific claims in the 1970s. The news piece about 3-cent oil is interesting. It raises an issue about relativity and about the hand of government.
When government is by the people and for the people (an ideal we call "democracy") and that hand is guided by BOTH a sacred trust in individual freedom and in social welfare (social justice, etc), that is much different than when the hand of government is the sole reach of a dictator (regardless of what that leader is called). President Hugo Chavez can be seen as much more transparently manipulative TO US in the U. S. of A., but we are far less likely to see that same manipulation of us by our own leaders.
CORRUPTION of capitalism, democracy, socialism, and the oil industry are our enemies—not the concepts themselves, right?
And our own corruption of the "American Dream"—we want our cake and eat it to. . .and we want to win the cake on "American Idol"—not work for it. . .or even "deserve" it. . .we are in the "lottery" mindset of the American culture. I make this statement NOT as some commentary on the decline of the culture (there is not decline) but as the most current form of corruption (corruption has always existed in our systems).
I DO think it interesting that in the U. S. our views of "lifestyle" and our approaches to gas prices and all that entails (car choices, traveling, NOT carpooling, driving across campus to class instead of walking. . .) along with our slow and hesitant embracing of soccer are in distinct contrast to those same aspects of European life.
The worst mythology of America is a pursuit of rugged individual AT THE EXPENSE of others. . .and this is all too often how Americans are seen by the rest of the world, currently with the face of W. on that persona. I think this is a flaw in the system; look at any politician who succeeds—we will tolerate NO human flaws. . .thus they must all wear masks and lie. We love lies.
Recall the presidential race where one candidate admitted he WOULD raise our taxes and the other candidate pledged "No new taxes!" We voted for the latter. . .who raised our taxes.
Adding a tangent to a tangential discussion; read some excellent books by Chris Hedges: I DON'T BELIEVE IN ATHEISTS and AMERICAN FASCISTS. Also I recommend Susan Jacoby's FREETHINKERS. Both give wonderful insight into the American mind. . .
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
CORRUPTION of capitalism, democracy, socialism, and the oil industry are our enemies—not the concepts themselves, right?
One of the most often-misquoted lines is "Money is the root of all evil." The actual passage reads, "The LOVE of money is the root of all evil."
Quite a difference when you think about it. Very similar to the difference in "Wanting to win" vs. "Love of winning no matter what the cost."
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147 |
Quote:
The worst mythology of America is a pursuit of rugged individual AT THE EXPENSE of others. . .and this is all too often how Americans are seen by the rest of the world, currently with the face of W. on that persona. I think this is a flaw in the system; look at any politician who succeeds—we will tolerate NO human flaws. . .thus they must all wear masks and lie. We love lies.
I believe we should personally take responsibility of own actions! We should be our own person, but not at the expense of others. One thing I take pride in our American democracy, it's initially at the will of the majority, but the minority also has a vote. Some of the world does see us as arrogant, but it's more out of jealousy. The majority of the world still wants to be part of the American Dream, why else do they keep flocking to our shores.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
Quote:
Quote:
The worst mythology of America is a pursuit of rugged individual AT THE EXPENSE of others. . .and this is all too often how Americans are seen by the rest of the world, currently with the face of W. on that persona. I think this is a flaw in the system; look at any politician who succeeds—we will tolerate NO human flaws. . .thus they must all wear masks and lie. We love lies.
I believe we should personally take responsibility of own actions! We should be our own person, but not at the expense of others. One thing I take pride in our American democracy, it's initially at the will of the majority, but the minority also has a vote. Some of the world does see us as arrogant, but it's more out of jealousy. The majority of the world still wants to be part of the American Dream, why else do they keep flocking to our shores.
Our democracy was specifically designed to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.
I mean no disrespect, but commenting that "some" of the world sees us as "arrogant, but it's more out of jealousy" actually proves that view correct; a terribly arrogant (and inaccurate) statement.
Absolutely no doubt that we and others honor the true American Dream (the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness); but absolutely no doubt that too many of us, and others, have corrupted that dream. The world is fortunate that more and more countries are places where people do NOT flock here because their countries allow them the ideal our dream stands for. Sadly, many other counties remain that are oppressive. . .and far too many people remain oppressed in our country because of the accidents of their births.
Yes, a rising tide lifts all boats. . .but we are often so shortsighted in this country not to acknowledge the many who do not have boats (through no fault of their own); that rising tide only drowns them. . .
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170
coach
|
|
OP
coach
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 2,170 |
Just for my sake; a couple of definitions so that I can make sure that we're all talking apples-to-apples: - Socialism refers to the goal of a socio-economic system in which property and the distribution of wealth are subject to control by the community.
- Capitalism is a social system based on the recognition of inalienable rights in which people are free to produce and trade and thus precondition an economic system in which all property is privately owned.
There's no doubt that the United States is a primarily capitalistic system with some elements of socialism. Much of what I find interesting in politics today has in its basis a core argument about what the relative degree of capitalism and socialism should and will be. My inherent problem with socialism (and its previously best-known branch of implementation, communism) is much the same as my inherent problem with libetarianism or anarchy -- all are fine theories, and all seek to provide "moralistic" answers to the creation of a socio-economic system -- but all have been shown to have enormous problems in implementation. The apologists for these systems tend to lay the blame at the feet of those implementing them; my own belief is that after repeated failures you have to start wondering if the system itself is the issue. At their core, they require a change in the fundamental nature of human beings -- while capitalism at its core attempts to create a system which has as its foundation the fundamental nature of human beings. I understand where "cat" is coming from; it's precisely the same type of argument that Obama used when he basically stated in the ABC debates that he would take the capital gains tax dramatically up for the sake of "fairness" even though it would cause overall tax-related to capital gains to decrease. I think it was the clearest and most concise statement to date of his philosophy -- and the philosophy of much of the "far-left" of this country (note: I really hate this "far-left" stuff -- but I notice how much "far-right" is used -- and I notice how Limbaugh and Coulter are always used as examples of those using superficial and misleading arguments while how less often Krugman and Dowd (for example) are -- so I thought I'd give it my shot.) This is where a socialistic socio-economic system tends to end up -- in grand gestures toward "fairness" that end up hurting the very people that they are intended to help. The "mythology of individualism at the expense of others" -- what you'd call a mythology, I'd call a basic law of human nature and economic systems. The best socio-economic systems transcend the "economic" and move toward "socio" in the sense that they help individuals understand that they can achieve a win/win rather than a win/loss -- the worst socio-economic systems try to ignore the inherent selfishness of human beings and somehow coerce them into doing "what's right" for others without regard for self. It's kind of like saying as a coach -- "if those girls would listen to me, I'd have the best team in the state." That might be true -- or not -- but that's not the issue. The issue is what type of system the coach puts in place that will motivate the players to do what the coach wants. Everyone wants everyone else to do things the way that they think they should -- and if this could be arranged, I have no doubt that capitalism would soon be abandoned (as soon as we found that one tyrant who we all agreed would have the final say on just what it is we should all want and do.) However, in the "real world" of "selfish" human beings (where "selfishness", like everything else, is a matter of degree rather than an absolute) the question isn't what system works best if we changed human nature -- it's what system works best given human nature. Taking this back to oil -- the very best argument I ever heard regarding the tax holiday wasn't that it would save anyone money (I believe that at worse it's the opposite of a windfall-profits tax -- and I don't like those either and agree with "Big Daddy" regarding oil industry profitability over a given period of time -- and at its best its a redistribution attempt) but rather it would remove money from the place where typically the stupidest decisions appear to be made (government) and add more money to either private enterprise or private individuals. In terms of reading lists, I strongly recommend the person that David Mamet called our "greatest contemporary philosopher" -- Thomas Sowell.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
Shibumi:
Excellent and clear points. Great refocusing.
I hate being compared to Obama. . .but. . .
I never mention any "liberal" commentators because they are not "known" names. Currently, the so-called "new media" is all Right-wing commentators, the worst of which are Coulter and Limbaugh. When I mention them, I intend in no way to suggest that I endorse anyone of any ideology using distortions and such in their discourse. Just as any commentary on Bush is not an implicit endorsement of Clinton. I deplore the actions of both.
Now, it is absolutely clear from the record of history than any "theory" based in idealistic or Utopian thought is a failure in practice, as you noted. Socialism, Communism, et al, have no hope of success in action. To me, it is also a fact supported by history that the best possible human system is a foundation in free market ideology (because I believe in the "free," but am less enamored with the "market") with a minimum of socialism (and I mean a MINIMUM) as a moral barometer for the inherent dangers with a truly free market (anything from child pornography and snuff films to crack and heroine have "markets," thus would flourish, even more than they do, without some moral component such as social law to manage the abuse of such a system).
Blind ideological adherence to ANYTHING leads to corruption. Healthy and reasoned skepticism is our only hope for success—or at least a limiting of failure.
I happen to think we are ALL over-taxed; I happen to think government is far too large and intrusive (thus I find the Libertarian perspective seductive, but as you noted, it fails in practice because it is essentially idealistic).
However, I cannot accept as fact part of this premise: "capitalism at its core attempts to create a system which has as its foundation the fundamental nature of human beings." The fundamental nature of human beings is not provable from any perspective. It is like other issues of ontology—great to debate, but impossible to prove.
I would argue that Capitalism feeds INTO the very worst parts of human nature. The accumulation of wealth, capital, and material things is seductive and corrupting. The Free Market beast needs for each of us to be "gi'me gi'me" creatures with little regard for our fellow humans. It takes the best parts of our human nature to pull back from the seduction of wealth and to value all that is not arbitrarily valued in our society.
In fact, part of the American psychosis is that we fail to address the inherent contradiction between our professed belief in Capitalism and our claimed faith in Christian principles. Takes some mighty intense metal gymnastics to make those things mesh.
Contemporary Americans are DEEPLY imprinted by behavioristic assumptions about human nature (that DO match the Christian claim of Original Sin), but I am little convinced that these assumptions are human nature. I lean toward Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau in my trust that human nature is far better than we often claim. . .
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429 |
"BD,
For one thing, it's that same ostentatious consumerism you mention that fuels (no pun intended) our economy. Smaller, more conservative lifestyles means less buying and spending, which means less demand for consumer goods, which means...well, I imagine you do understand at this point where I'm going. Much of our commerce today involves goods and services that people buy simply because they CAN afford them. Decrease demand for these products in order to afford gas, and you decrease the need for jobs to produce them, revenue and taxes from selling them, etc. I'm not saying we couldn't get by without these things like the Europeans do; I'm saying the way we're currently structured, we've grown socially and economically dependent on them."
from coach chass....
I was in Japan a couple of years ago on a project that had three involved parties: Germans, Japanese, Americans. We had a technical review in Japan that I participated in and at one point one evening...the discussion shifted to a little bit of good natured tweaking of the Americans by the Germans with a little help by the Japanese. Focus of the tweaking was our outsized appetites and consumption for stuff.
I told them at the time that they should be thanking the gods of commerce.....becasue without all that consumerism run amok they would have no run to buy their stuff.
How things change.....
A critical mass has been achieved or is in the process of being achieved in places like India and China where sufficient wealth has been created where they are now the consumers of world resources and output.
Not that we will stop, obviously....but as consumers we will now have to compete for goods and that means prices will go up for everything.
I hate to sound pessimistic....I loved Ronald Reagan and there is a great interview in Newsweek with George Will and some liberal guy whose name escapes me.....and one of the great comments about Reagan was his sense of optimism helped define him and his core beliefs.
But to me the genie is out of the bottle in the countries I mentioned. Huge populations creating huge amounts of wealth. They may be buying $3000 cars and not $30000 cars, but they still need lots of steel and rubber and will still require gas. My general sense is that a lot of what we as Americans take for granted.....is going to start costing a lot more, with a result being a slow, gradual decline in the standard of living that most of us enjoy. Things will cost more and more and people will pay it for awhile and then gradually have to start making choices.
Probably not a bad thing.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429 |
I really liked a Cat's Cradle comment a while back that got me to thinking about paradigms.
Free, quality public education K-12 = American dream/birthright.
Free, quality public healthcare = "socialized" medicine = socialism.
Why is this?
Things the government provides: education, transportation infrastructure, utilities infrastructure, police/fire, military, legal infrastructure (laws, courts, prisons), postal service.
Just curious.....why healthcare doesn't fit in there?
Always found it interesting that for whatever reason people think business should bear this cost? Imagine if healthcare was publicly funded, corporate taxes left unchanged, and the cost of providing medical care taken off of the backs of business. Good lord.....thats a ton of money to reinvest in business or give back to shareholders.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854
brace
|
|
brace
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 854 |
BD—
Two things.
First, the worst aspect of Reagan (or the mythology we associate with Reagan) is the optimism. . .sorry. . .politicos feed into a warped Utopian mindset that plagues humanity. What we need from leaders and the common person is realism.
An example, No Child Left Behind actual calls for 100% success on testing and graduation by 2014. This is idiotic; a political and Utopian "dream" that can only be a failure. Only in politics would such inane goals be tolerated.
[Note: For those who want to suggest my comment about the Reagan myth is partisan; we also have a Kennedy myth and a Gandhi myth. That we mythologize is a fact; that the myth is a distortion of the biography is a fact.]
Second, I agree that the American mindset makes little sense. Part of the problem (if not the crux of the problem) is that we misrepresent ideologies and theories; we spend too much time creating a "team" view of everything. Thus, for our team to win and be right, we must also demonize the other team. Thus, we don't want to associate our police force or judicial system or military with "socialism" or as "government" because we have spent so much intellectual capital demonizing both! Ironically, we demonize government, which is US. . .
We lack a political party or movement that clearly defines the MINIMUM role government should play and then how we should invest in that, and that alone. Instead we have partisanship on two sides that are little different from each other. It is (and has always been) a very expensive sporting event among the elite; the rest of us pay heavily for the tickets to watch. . .
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Agreed...the balance of wealth is shifting, and so the comparative standard of living will necessarily shift as well. My only worry is that the industry and trade structure that has evolved over generations to meet consumer demand that has always been based on cheap transportation will not be able to adapt quickly enough to meet a spike in prices...it's not change that causes the biggest problems, but sudden change.
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 147 |
WOW, 99% of the thread is above my head. One I really enjoy this thread, because it helps me understand our history. I realize I cannot even come close to debating clearly any of the previously spoken points. In my simplistic view the thread hashes through our past rather well. What can I learn from it all? The changes we see today can't be a spike. We have known this day would come for years. And even today I don't see anyone with a vision for the future. JFK had a vision; he initiated the largest system of aid the world has ever seen. Reagan had a vision that created the largest NAVY in the world (which in turned fueled our economy). I have been extremely disappointed by our more recent leaders from both parties. The old timer's Hilary/McCain very much indicates a status quo. Obama speaks of change, but I see it more of a socialistic type of change. I really don't see a vision that will lead the US to the next level.
First and foremost, we need a leader that can take us to accomplish great things. (AKA Reagan, JFK, FDR, Washington)
I firmly believe our constitution is the best the world has to offer.
We need to create an energy source to help our continued growth, and one we have control over.
We need to take care of our own, be it through an insurance program, or a socialistic program.
We need to be the best stewards of this world.
We need to continue exploring the world and universe, as it will help provide answers.
We need to insure continued competition as it creates the best value for me the consumer.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429 |
Story in Charlotte this morning has CATS seeking additional $15m to buy extra cars necessary for higher volume of traffic on new light rail system.
This is great news on many fronts. Access to excellent mass transit is a superb response to the problem. Take the train, spend less on gas, ease congestion of our highways.
Then my wife can tool the 'Burban that much easier....
Just kidding....kind of.
Seriously, a MARTA type system in Charlotte would be huge and there's no way I'd ever drive into Charlotte again if I could hop a train 5-10 minutes from my house and be in downtown/uptown/midtown 15 minutes later...for 2 bucks or whatever.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429 |
Cats Cradle,
While I agree with a fair bit of what you wrote I disagree on the Reagan optimism thing.
Most of us are cynics, pessimists, fearful of change, fearful of being cheated....maybe a little bit of "Show Me"
thats in us. So when we meet or are exposed to a Reagan, an Obama...someone simply wired differently....its unbleievably refreshing to me.
I would come off as a phony and a hypocrite if I tried to sell the optimism thing. I yearn for it.....but at heart I struggle in accepting it in most people. One of those areas where I separate what is, from what could be.
But I have met people before.....who this is hardwired into who they are. The Bible speaks of "fruits of the spirit". And when you meet people who really have it....you simply know it, recognize it. People are drawn to them for the right reasons.
So I believe it to be with RR. He saw a different America than we did....he saw the America that our founders envisioned. He saw an America that appealed to the finest instincts of man.
Now, the America of racism and hypocrisy and everything else is still there....just as with ourselves, most of us are in a daily battle between who we are and who we want to be.
Reagan accepted that Amercia, but he refused to be defined by it. Limited by it. And God bless him....we need him today more than ever.
|
|
|
|
