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Any opinions about the quality of HS coaches vs Club coaches?. Due to the high number of club players on any given HS team I really wonder the true importance of a quality HS coach. Club players equal success. I think a HS team with 11 club players could win a state title with a tennis coach running the team. What do you think?
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I have to believe, in Girls 4A, the starting line-ups for all of the Top 15 teams in the state were chock-full of club players.
Only one team won state, and I don't know how good the coach is at tennis, but she's apparently pretty darned good at coaching soccer.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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You ask two separate opinions, I'll respond to the second..If the tennis coach knows nothing of soccer, even with 11 club players that team will probably not win state! Especially if the other team also has the same caliber players with a good HS/Club coach. The first question is also easy several HS have coaches that coach club and HS. The bottom line is the specific coach, their experience, license etc.
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I think there are HS teams with 11+ club players who didn't win region, much less state. Club training certainly gives a HS coach more to work with, but how well you manage the talent you have available certainly makes a big difference as well. Individual talent is great, but it is teamwork that wins or loses soccer matches; the coach who can put players together so that they use their abilities to the greatest effect and make the whole greater than the sum of the parts will go a lot farther than one who just tosses great players on the field and says, "you're good--go win a game."
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Coach Chass:
So does a coach who can put players togeather so that they use their abilities to the greatest effect need to be a soccer coach?
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Hurst:
How many club players start for the state champ Wando girls?
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I really don't know but I'm sure she has at least 11 club players available to her on the roster if she needs them.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Hurst:
That proves my point.
3A-HH same deal, all club players starting.
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Quote:
Coach Chass:
So does a coach who can put players togeather so that they use their abilities to the greatest effect need to be a soccer coach?
I think the coach who can do that needs to be someone who understands the game, yes. He/she has to be able to decide on the system of play, know how to position players to best use their talents, read the game and make necessary adjustments, and most of all, have the confidence of the team so that they will all put their faith in the same system and work on it together. Nothing will kill a team's performance faster than a group of individuals who have no confidence in the coach or in each other, so they each try to play the game "their way" rather than all playing their roles within the system. Second-guessing causes hesitation and miscommunication, and those things lose games. So to answer your question, I'd say the team has to BELIEVE in their coach as a soccer coach in order to be at the top of their potential.
(This opinion comes from a guy who coaches on the club and HS sides, and also coached tennis.)
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Quote:
Hurst:
How many club players start for the state champ Wando girls?
I can answer that...all of 'em.
Still doesn't prove your point that the ability of the HS coach doesn't matter, though...there are plenty of other teams who start 11 club players with others waiting on the bench, but who don't do as well as Wando. How do you account for that difference?
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Think of it like an auto race...the best driver still can't win unless he has a fast car; but the fastest machine on the track still won't hit victory lane if the driver doesn't know what he's doing.
Club can provide the fast car, but the HS coach still has to be able to drive well and keep it out of the wall; otherwise it's wasted talent.
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good coaching makes all the difference and it always will.
they set the lineup, which can kill a team no matter who is on the field,
they either motivate or bore the players,
club players have likely been exposed to good coaching and therefore know when a practice is run well or not,
and good coaches TEACH during the games
He/She is the 12th man on the field,
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I've got good news and bad news...
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Coach Chass:
The difference would be in the quality of players.
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Uhm...but if you say club=success, and two teams have equal numbers of club players, then wouldn't they, using that logic, be equally successful or unsuccessful?
Seems to me there must be another factor involved.
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Farkas:
Can a good coach win in HS without club players?
Would you take the winningest coach in HS soccer with zero club players or would you take a tennis coach with 11 club players? Who gives you the better chance to win?
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Sweet, you've done a pretty good job of defending the view that it's next to impossible to win state WITHOUT good club players...
...but that still doesn't prove that just any old hack could win state WITH them, either.
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Coach Chass:
No, some club players are more successful than others.
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Quote:
Farkas:
Can a good coach win in HS without club players?
Would you take the winningest coach in HS soccer with zero club players or would you take a tennis coach with 11 club players? Who gives you the better chance to win?
A better question to prove your original point would be, would you take a good HS soccer coach with 11 club players, or a tennis coach with 11 club players? If you want to show whether one variable (hs coaching) makes a difference, then you have to keep the other variable (# of club players) constant.
Now, if you could guarantee me that we would come up against nothing but teams with no club players at all, then sure, I might be OK with a stacked team with a tennis coach at the helm.
But we both know that ain't gonna happen on the way to state.
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Quote:
Coach Chass:
No, some club players are more successful than others.
I agree...and likewise, some coaches can get more performance out of their players than others.
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Or?..... Can a club team win without HS players? Can a HS team win without club players? Can a club win with a hot dog vender/gaffer/tennis coach?
Soccer players will play every chance they get. Pickup, club or HS. So that is why they appear in clubs and in HS. The simple desire to play.
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If I may venture an interpretation on that...  Maybe sometimes the variable we don't give enough attention to is the players themselves. We get into the mindset of who makes the most difference, club coaches or high school coaches, and sometimes we forget it is the player who also makes a big difference. I think one reason club players perform better than non-club players is not necessarily because of quality of coaching--although I do not discount the effect a highly-skilled club coach can have--but it's at least partially because the club players tend to be the ones who put more of themselves into the sport. They are the ones who care about playing and playing well, enough to go to the extra effort, time, travel and expense to add another soccer season per year to their lives and work to get better; maybe they improve not so much because of who's been around to give it to them, but because of what they've done to earn it.
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Anyway, I think Sweet is right that it takes opportunities for training beyond the short time available to a HS coach to maximize a player's potential...at the same time, I think it takes a combination of factors--including the talent and motivation of the HS coach--to make sure that potential translates into a team of talented players performing at their best.
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Coach Chass:
You got that right.
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Sweet feet: All Wando starters this year were Club players. In fact, the entire Wando team played club in the Fall of 2007 at a Challenge or Premier level - Bridge, MPSC & CESA. In addition, several of the starters are current or former ODP players, and at least one was on the ODP Region III 1991 pool team for 2007. 
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Hasn't the Wando coach coached soccer at other High Schools and has a proven soccer knowledge? (Chapin)
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Quote:
Sweet feet: All Wando starters this year were Club players. In fact, the entire Wando team played club in the Fall of 2007 at a Challenge or Premier level - Bridge, MPSC & CESA. In addition, several of the starters are current or former ODP players, and at least one was on the ODP Region III 1991 pool team for 2007.
Keep talking; you're making my 5-0 loss to them with 2 Classic players look better and better all the time! 
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Coach Chass - Do you coach club? If so, where? If not, why not? Seems to be the best way to get your girls to improve in the offseason from high school.
Victory Starts Here!
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I do; I've been coaching for CUSC with the U17 and U18 Classic teams the last two years. It's hard for a lot of my players to commit to club because of other responsibilities; we have very few specialized athletes in Moncks Corner, I'm afraid. Several of my players have tried out for this fall's team, though, so I'm hoping to continue to grow the participation!
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Get better!!!!!
Last edited by Kyle Heise; 05/25/08 02:51 PM.
A SHARK ATE ME YES THEY DESERVE TO DIE AND I HOPE THEY BURN IN HELL
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Stop making excuses for losing!!!!!!! The poorest area in SC produce winning records and competes for Lower state championships every year. Whats your point? I know in those poor areas they can't afford to pay $1,100 to get sub training from a super club!!!!! So whats your point? I mean get me up to speed. High school is all about tradition unless Jesus Christ bless you one year where you get blessed with a lucky hand!!!!
A SHARK ATE ME YES THEY DESERVE TO DIE AND I HOPE THEY BURN IN HELL
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I think what often gets lost in this dichotomy (club v. high school) is that PLAYERS benefit from playing at a high level of soccer year-round, which at the HS level in SC means club in the fall.
Year-round soccer by the players is crucial for success. Less so at A, more so at AAAA.
But to win the state, or compete for the state, those year-round players need a high quality coach and a school committed to a PROGRAM.
I began coaching high school soccer because I felt the players deserved something better than having a coach forced to coach them, or having a coach be there simply to fulfill his coaching obligations. The school wanted the same. I never played soccer and did intensive on-the-job training. But both the boys and girls teams at that high school have done better since the players have committed to year-round soccer and the school has secured a high-quality soccer coach (not me).
"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
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What I see is programs that never get better..Schools offer soccer to girls but they do not offer a committment to build a good program.
So year in and year out these teams get pounded..Why did they do it in the first place? I am not talking about winning every game..I am talking about gradually getting better.If the girls are willing to come out don't we owe them the chance to be competitive over time? These coaches know who they are..Get off the bench and stand on that sideline and coach your team..Or get out of the way and give someone a chance that truly wants to build a program.
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While I am on a roll..I know that some coaches hands are tied with what they can do..I don't put all of the blame solely on the shoulders of the coach..I find it funny that ADs looking to hire a football coach will travel across the state to find a coach but will look only down the hall to hire a girls soccer coach..Where's the emphasis from anyone?
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It takes a village to raise a soccer player. The teams that I've seen get on top and stay and top do so with a soccer community. I know coaches at Summerville and Wando at the youth level that feel plugged in to the system. I know coaches at Goose Creek and Moncks Corner that don't feel or don't want to be plugged in. Compare our records.
Coach Chass gave me a chance to assist him at Berkeley a few years ago. It use to be brand new players each year with no carry over. Now we are getting players that have skills and conditioning and actually know the sport very well.
In order to get better we split forces and made a JV team. This was a small step back to go forward. I still coach with the youth teams in fall, the biggest challenge for me has been playing ambassador between HS and youth. I like being on the field and sharpening the skills not trying to convience a first year U12 Boom Ball expert that just because you win a game or two....well you get the picture.
As a model program in 4 A we are not it, are we a model for teams without a progam and wishing to get better? Yes, we are getting more right now than wrong. We can do better and that is our ultimate goal as I am sure is everyones.
I was lucky to have been on a team that won a state championship. I remember the feeling the hard work the dedication. I dream of seeing my girls get that chance.
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That's what I am talking about..Programs do not get built over night but you have to measure your success year in and year out..Is our program stronger than it was last year? Not measured solely on wins but are players coming back..do they truly have a sense of what's going on when they play.
Do you develop smarter players..These are measuring tools..We can't go on scores or close games alone because how do you know when some team might be laying back or are they starting their first team..Everyone has to be committed to building a program..It starts with administration..If you do not have their support how effective are you going to be? I have just seen to many programs flounder and just provide a team and they players deserve better or at least a chance...We had one game called twenty minutes early because the coach said the players were tired...PLEASE!! Expect more from your players and you might get something from them..
It's easy to point a finger because of my location and my child plays for a stronger program but guess what folks..My child is moving to the new school next year..Yeah!! that's right..a new program at AA and playing varsity with ninth and tenth graders. A challenge? YES!!And over time I expect everyone to step up and build a successful program..I would expect nothing less
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Yes Cane Bay will be interesting to watch as they build. I expect big things from them. I am sending one that I have coached 4 years and 7 seasons. I have a rising 8th grader on my JV squad that will be a great player when she gets there.
Yeah using scores isn't much an indicator of match to match compare/contrast. Ball possession and how the teams handle "the Moment" they are in is my barometer.
You are correct on admin, sorta the chicken and the egg. Players have gotta play, coaches need to coach,supporters support admin has to admins. We all share the vision and utilize the gameplan.
Good Luck with your daughter's new school. The challenge will give her that chance to shine.
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It will not happen over night but my hope is that when she graduates the program will be three years in and well on their way and I hope she plays a role in making that happen.
Good luck at my old almer mater..Keep the ball rolling
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Tim & cht,
I noticed that Cane Bay is starting out as a 2A school in the 2008-2010 alignment.
How big will their enrollment be? Will the oldest class in 08-09 be the junior class? How quickly do you think enrollment will grow? Will CB be 3A or 4A in the next few years?
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Both Cane Bay and Ashley Ridge will start AA with just two grades.Depends over the next two years when they have all four grades at these schools as to where they will be size wise..Development of the area and how many move in..Personally..I think that AR will be AA for the first two years and the third year at AAA..AR will be pulling kids from Summerville ans Fort Dorchester while Cane Bay will be pulling kids from Berkeley ans Stratford..I see both schools reaching AAAA over the next four or five years..
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Quote:
Stop making excuses for losing!!!!!!! The poorest area in SC produce winning records and competes for Lower state championships every year. Whats your point? I know in those poor areas they can't afford to pay $1,100 to get sub training from a super club!!!!! So whats your point? I mean get me up to speed. High school is all about tradition unless Jesus Christ bless you one year where you get blessed with a lucky hand!!!!
Who's making excuses? Point is, athletes who have been training year-round and playing since they were 5, 6, 7 years old have every right and reason to expect to beat teams of players who only come out during high school seasons and many of whom have never played before. Effort in equals results out, and that's how it should be. Still doesn't mean that the young people who come out later in life, pick up and enjoy the game, and put a lot of effort into improving in a short time can't still be proud of their efforts just because they can't jump up and challenge for state. High school IS about tradition...and for some schools, it's about trying to change tradition for the better.
You make "excuses" for things you're embarrassed about. I'm not. If there's anything else you're not "up to speed" on, feel free to rant away.
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I am looking forward to seeing Cane Bay and Ashley Ridge develop. It may be a lean couple of years, but the experience may pay off in the long run; the younger players will by necessity get the field time, and there's nothing like going through the fire to develop players, as long as they keep their spirit.
I think the plan is for both schools to reach 4A numbers by the '10-11 school year, which will coincide with the next 2-year cycle for realignment...I would expect to see Cane Bay joining 7-AAAA and Ashley Ridge joining 8-AAAA, bringing both of those regions back to their original 6 teams in the next cycle.
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Quote:
Hurst:
That proves my point.
3A-HH same deal, all club players starting.
This is not true.
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If you can get all those girls playing year-round (HS & club), Regions 7 & 8 will look like Region 2 in four years.
In North Carolina, Weddington went to the 4A final in 2007, in just their fifth or sixth year of existence (half of that Weddington team actually ended up at Marvin Ridge this year, where MR went 21-1 in NC 3A in their first season).
Also, Charlotte's Ardrey Kell went to the NC 4A state final game this past Friday night, in just their second year of existence.
Good luck to Cane Bay and Ashley Ridge. Hope they can get it going quickly.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Hurst
On the Cane Bay enrollment. The way that area is being developed it resembles the Wando/MT P area of the 70's, the sky is the limit. This place is going to be huge. I use to live in a trailer park where there is now 200K housing.
I think they will be well supported and take second this coming year right behing BE.
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Not if Ashley Ridge has anything to say about it...And the rivalry is on!!
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I just don't understand where you're going with this?
I'd take 11 great players that don't play club and an excellent coach and 3 superb subs and play any combination of what ever you want.
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Quote:
Not if Ashley Ridge has anything to say about it...And the rivalry is on!!
Heh, heh...and so begins the Battle of the Expansion Teams!
Love it! 
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I'm assuming both of these new schools will move up out of 2A before they have a real chance of knocking off Bishop England?
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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I do not see B.E. getting knocked off until they are put with the caliber of teams they should be playing..AR should have a feeder system as Summerville does with a local soccer club in the area.Cane Bay does not have a soccer club close by but with all that developing going on..who knows?
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I guess the Charleston area can stand one more soccer club
Last edited by coldhardtruth; 05/26/08 01:12 PM.
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Quote:
I guess the Charleston area can stand one more soccer club
Where are the Summerville area challenge level players playing club in 2008? I only see classic level offered for girls U13-18 at SSC?
I see some offered spots at BFA and I know a few play at CESA. Where did the rest go? Did they decide to stay in their own back yard to play classic for SSC?
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Most stayed where they were last year..Sprinkled around the lowcountry..Mostly between BFA and SSC
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Farkas:
That is my point, you can't find one great girl playing HS soccer let alone eleven (11) that dosn't play club ball. Success in HS soccer is tied to club soccer.
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There are varying degrees of club players out there playing high school soccer. Some play R3PL, some play Challenge and some play Classic.
There are also girls playing high school soccer who have quit playing club soccer all together, some who play rec soccer, and some who contribute significantly to the varsity high school team, but don't play soccer in the off season at all (basketball players, swimmers, x-country runners).
If you have a good high school coach, you can make a run at a state title with a mix of these players.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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True..eleven clubs players will get you wins but not championships..Coaches decide game plans..who is starting and when players need to come off and go on the field..A good coach is a necessity for success..I don't mean to step on toes but I would rather have a COACH that can educate than an educator that can coach..If that makes any sense to you.
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Agreed, Hurst...to say "you can't find one" is an overstatement. There are those athletes who can occasionally come out of nowhere and, with the right training and encouragement, make even a long-time club player look a little silly in a 1v1 situation.
Trouble is, soccer isn't a 1v1 sport, and a couple of great athletes have trouble making a difference when things don't come together to get them the ball in the right place at the right times--which, I think, causes these players to be underrated and often go unnoticed.
I think club training is at its greatest advantage when you have a significant number of players from the same HS team also playing together at club in the off-season...not only do they get the extra training and touches on the ball, but they also get the extra time learning to work with each other, knowing what to expect from teammates, and perfecting combination play with each other as well as individual skill.
If you look at some of the most successful teams in my area (Wando, James Island, West Ashley, Summerville) you'll see that many of these young people have not only played year-round for years and gotten the benefit of the extra time and coaching, but many of them have also managed to play TOGETHER for that extra time...which, IMHO, makes an even bigger difference in team play than the individual coaching.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Quote:
True..eleven clubs players will get you wins but not championships..Coaches decide game plans..who is starting and when players need to come off and go on the field..A good coach is a necessity for success..I don't mean to step on toes but I would rather have a COACH that can educate than an educator that can coach..If that makes any sense to you.
I have a hard time separating the two, CHT...it's definitely a coach's job to educate, no matter what quality of players he has in front of them...education should never stop. There's also a lot of coaching that goes into education, too...I'm finding more and more overlap in coaching and teaching styles the longer I do this....
But yes, what you said definitely makes sense.
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I have yet to see a non club player making any impact at the HS level. Can anyone on this board name a single non club player who made an impact last weekend at stone stadium? Heck i'll go one further, did a single non club player even make it onto the field in the 3A-or 4-A girls games?
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Sweet,
Define "impact." If your definition is restricted to playing in a state championship game, then maybe not...but then I could also show you dozens and dozens of high-level club players who also apparently made "no impact."
If you're talking about having an impact on the overall success and dynamics of a team within their competitive level, then I could cite you examples, yes.
Here's one from close to home, that doesn't involve winning state but does involve making a difference (aka "impact")
2005 season: Berkeley loses to Wando 0-9, West Ashley 0-12, and James Island 0-13.
2006 season: A home-grown freshman keeper, with no prior club experience and no prior formal keeper training, and supported by a team with NO club players, holds Wando and James Island to 3 goals and West Ashley to 2.
Championship? No. Stone Stadium? No. Impact on overall team play and effectiveness? Huge.
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That said, do I encourage that player and all of the others to take advantage of club and other opportunities to raise their skill levels further? Of course. There will always be a player or two or three who has the athletic ability and work ethic to make an impact with or without the "extra." A team who can win at the highest levels, however, needs an entire roster of players who are willing to do whatever it takes to reach that level, and for the vast majority, that means more than a couple of months per year of high school practice and games.
I've got good news and bad news...
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success in anything is tied to the personal pursuit of excellence,
club ball is part of the process, a big part for most kids.
However, you're overlooking a bunch of Hispanic kids that don't play club ball and are very good players. They've learned the game from age 3 and play vs adults all the time.
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Coach Chass:
I stand corrected, your right about the keeper position.
Farkas:
The hispanic kids are starting to make an impact on HS soccer. The hispanic kids have excellent skills but seem to lack the overall team concept if not exposed to club soccer.
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I can't argue with that. But I wonder if the style of play they learn stresses more individual skills and 1 v 1 play instead of passing as soon as or before you're under pressure?
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Here is a new can of worms to open and maybe get yelled at for not being directly relevant, but I see one HUGE thing missing in this whole discussion from my point of view
Where is the fun and caring about the individual kids?
Would the kids/parents prefer to have a coach that included fun and caring as part of a complete quality coaching experience or is that a non-factor? Not advocating for Bozo the clown to become coach of the year, (although I do think I saw his cousin on the sideline at a tournament here recently) but for most kids and people, what’s the point if in the end it is not fun in some way-shape-form!
Oh-- and while we did not make it to Stone THIS year, I do have a non-club playing impact player on my roster too!
tk
Tony King
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Sure, Hispanics tend to play a different style witch does stress more 1 V 1. Ask any boy playing HS and or club soccer, and most complain about trying to mesh the different styles of play.
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Stumpduck:
Winning is fun.
The HS coaches and players I know hate to lose. Show me a coach or player who likes to lose and I'll show you a loser.
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The kids that held that championship trophy over their heads looked like they were having a good time...Where is the sense of accomplishment if we don't strive to get better? We expect our kids to do the best they can in the classroom and it's not always fun but when they pass they have a sense of accomplishment.Why should we expect less on the field? Should you hold a program back because a few are not having fun? Maybe they are not where they need to be..
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sweet, I beg to differ. Winning is very SATISFYING. There is a great deal of PRIDE in winning. But winning is not always FUN. There is a ton of hard work and personal sacrafice that goes into winning. Take any 4A program that makes the final 8 or the final 4 and my guess is that it's a heckuva lot more HARD WORK than FUN! (Those training sessions and conditioning programs are no place for Bozo The Clown!) 
Last edited by Hurst66; 05/26/08 09:25 PM.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Hurst is correct that it does become hard for most to be a part of a winning program..Ask the players if they would rather work less and lose more..The satisfaction comes from the thrill of the win..A sense of accomplishment!!
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Hurst, The winning is fun, I said nothing about the hard work involved in getting their. 
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Well put cht.
It's the old "Commitment to Excellence". You get out of it what you put into it.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Talk is cheap, ask the Raider fans. They have that logo everywhere.
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At the same time, in my experience, the players who can have fun WHILE working hard will put more into the game and get more results out than those who see it as just a job. See Hurst's tagline, for example...you have to have commitment, effort, and hard work, but a talented team who has fun is, on the average, going to perform better than an equally talented team who doesn't.
As for TK's statement, I agree...I don't think it's unrelated at all. Again, keeping other factors equal, athletes seem to perform better AND have more enjoyment when they feel a connection with the other athletes they're playing with and the coach they're playing for.
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The hardest I ever worked in practice was two-a-days for Coach Moody back in '80-'83. There was this feeling that working hard was fun/satisfying. The old ways of doing things this way are gone. Mostly for the right reasons :ie no water and keeping your helmet on for 2 hours.
The challenges today are joining the players to form a strong circle and accomplishing the "team goals" no matter what or where. This is needed at club, ODP, rec, representing your country, ymca, upward and even playing with your kids.
I will also add (as Coach Chass hates when I say this at practice) LOVE, love the ball the grass your teammates your opponents and yourself. That respect and compassion will free you to PLAY and as well as....if I may drop the "F" bomb have FUN!
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Sweet feet,
Sara Johnson=Non club soccer.BC high.Plays golf,Basketball.
Layla Neal =Non club soccer.Chapin high.Plays Basketball,Volleyball.Both Ladies made all Region 4AAA,Also Layla plays Goalie Sara plays mid field .Both teams went deep in playoffs.Both also both made allstate in AAA.
Last edited by sancho; 05/27/08 12:40 AM.
sancho
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Coach Tim..Did you have fun? Think about it before you answer..There must of been something that was worthwhile to what you were doing? Maybe bleeding and sweating with your teammates?
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That is a great accomplishment for Sara and Layla to make allstate without any club experience.
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Quote:
Sweet feet,
Sara Johnson=Non club soccer.BC high.Plays golf,Basketball.
Layla Neal =Non club soccer.Chapin high.Plays Basketball,Volleyball.Both Ladies made all Region 4AAA,Also Layla plays Goalie Sara plays mid field .Both teams went deep in playoffs.Both also both made allstate in AAA.
Not entirely correct...
Sara played for a number of years in the challenge league at CSC prior to the CUFC merger. She played under coach Heather Frederick.
Layla also played up until last season at CSC then CUFC in the challenge league. I think Layla also played one season on the premier league with CUFC.
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing."
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OH NO Sancho,
Looks like my theory is holding true to form.
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Quote:
Coach Tim..Did you have fun? Think about it before you answer..There must of been something that was worthwhile to what you were doing? Maybe bleeding and sweating with your teammates?
Heck ya I had fun! Bleeding, sweating and singing Drifter's songs on the bus "Under the Boardwalk". It was tough going but we had relished the toughness of it.
I guess the point I was making is fun and hard work are the same if that is the environment you create. Plus the challeges are different now, making a coach more cerebral and less of a bullwhip.
Plus he took us on to win state in football '81.
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you only get out as much as you put in..I guess i am just lucky that I have a player that works hard and stills enjoys the game
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Quote:
I will also add (as Coach Chass hates when I say this at practice) LOVE, love the ball the grass your teammates your opponents and yourself. That respect and compassion will free you to PLAY and as well as....if I may drop the "F" bomb have FUN!
Hate it? Hardly. I couldn't agree more. At the risk of sounding goofy, I'll say this...love can make all the difference in a team. Love of the game, love of the team, love of a feeling of accomplishment, achievement, and progress...it's the greatest motivator in the world. If players love what they do, they will put ten times more in than players who are going through the motions just to meet someone else's expectations. Love is what brings them to practice when they have twenty other things to do, pushes them to practice and play through pain, injury, and sickness, keeps their spirits alive no matter what the scoreboard says, keeps them running when they should fall down. That spirit of laying it all out on the field no matter what happens, giving it all, not just what you can get by with, playing three levels above yourself through pure effort and heart...that's love. If anyone doesn't think that can make a difference, put two teams of equal athletic talent and training across from each other...teach one nothing but mechanics, requirements, and expectations, and show the other, in addition to all that, how to love the game and the people they share it with. See which one comes out on top.
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Brace
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Quote:
Coach Chass:
I stand corrected, your right about the keeper position.
Farkas:
The hispanic kids are starting to make an impact on HS soccer. The hispanic kids have excellent skills but seem to lack the overall team concept if not exposed to club soccer.
Sweetfeet,
I can give you two examples of field players that did not play club yet were impact players for us at Hanna.
Amy Davis was our center back last year and a dominant defender who made all region...not a club player.
This year we have Emily Wentzky who is all region and will be playing in the North/South game. She will play next year at Erskine College...also not a club player.
What these two have in common is athleticism (both also played volleyball), strong sense of team, heart, and character. Neither of these girls had an ounce of selfishness in them and always put the team first.
My opinion about this whole coaching vs. talent discussion is very simply that they are not mutually exclusive. Programs like those at Wando and Dorman are of course built on talent, but you better believe that those coaches work very hard and are themselves very talented to make them into championship programs.
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my opinion is that with the season now over,
we're a bit bored.
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I had several players this year who were not club players who stepped up and made a big difference in our overall performance. Again, we aren't a state-championship-level team (yet) but these players are making a difference against high-level teams.
My freshman outside mid who scored against James Island--not a club player.
Freshman center mid who worked the ball into the box and generated the second score against JI...not a club player.
Two of my three on the back line who came over from track and swimming, along with two defensive mids who helped to hold an impressive Wando offense to 5 goals (compared to Wando's 5-0 against West Ashley and 4-0 against JI, both teams starting all club players)--not club players.
Our double-duty sweeper/forward who got a scholarship to play for Coker and our outside mid who went on to play at Columbia, plus the three seniors this year who were offered spots with USC-Salk...not club players.
There are other examples too...again, if you're measuring impact by a team's ability to reach Stone Stadium, we're not there yet, but there are still players who, pound for pound, have given some club players a run for their money..it's hard to say they're not making an impact. Like CJ says, it's pure athleticism, heart, character, and team that help these players do more than they "should" be able to on the field...they deserve some credit for what they do.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Coach Chass,
Their are plenty of quality/impact players that didn't make it to stone stadium. As you know, it takes 11 solid players on a team to make it to stone.
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Absolutely...and agreed, for the majority, that means playing more than just high school ball.
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Craig,
Amy Davis and Emily Wentzky both played club for at least 3-4 consecutive years before opting not to play, I coached each of them for two years. True, they did not play all the way through high school, but I think we are looking to find HS players who made an impact but NEVER played ANY club. Apparantly the BC and Chapin players listed played club for a number of years and then took time off. Hard to find a girl who is very competitive at the HS level and has never had any club training.
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Ryan Roseberry,
Thanks, my theory still holds true.
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Same thing with Coach Chass's comments about players that helped on his team. I had some girls at Westside who did not play club and were athletic, stepped it up, had heart, etc., but then neither Berkeley nor Westside were dominant, highly ranked programs with a realistic shot of making it to the state championship.
No amount of heart and determination from any group of girls that does not have a few years of competitive club experience under their belts is going to beat a TL Hanna or a Wando.
Berkeley High is ranked 101 on the 2007 poverty index and Westside is ranked 105. Out of 48 AAAA schools, there are 35 and 37 respectively that have a wealthier mix of kids than these two schools. Spartanburg is ranked 1 lower than Westside in the AAAA poverty index and they find a way to be a top 10 school every year. It may take more creative methods to get kids into club, or to sell them on the idea, but I think athletic, CLUB players, at our schools will be what ultimately closes the gap.
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Agreed, completely. Still, we seem to be overlapping conversations between whether there is no GIRL who can be competitive (to me, this means competitive in skill level with other individuals, able to perform on the field, worthy of recognition and eligible for play at the next level) without club training and whether a TEAM can be competitive without club training. These two points are not the same.
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RR
On the SDE website it has the Berkeley district ranked 28th with a poverty index of 64.95 and Lexington 4 (swansea) has a PI of 79.88 and ranked 60th.
The PI in Lexington 4/Swansea has more than doubled since 1996. However, Swansea continues to close the gap. Furthermore, making it affordable for kids to play helps!
2007-district-report-card-poverty-Index.xls
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Chass,
Sorry about not being specific as to keeping my point focused on an individual player vs. team being able to make an impact. I still think neither an individual nor a team can make an impact at the highest level without club training.
Meredith,
I think I looked at a different link on the poverty index, but I know Swansea is able to do a lot with what they have. I interviewed for the HS English position at Swansea High in 2002, but was not that interested once I found out there was no girls soccer program. 6 years later they have a competitive squad, thanks in large part to LLSC, which I'm sure a number of your girls play for, and I imagine play together, too.
I would also imagine that LLSC does a good job in keeping club costs down, which is another big draw for the girls. It's hard to talk a girl who comes from a low income demographic into convincing her family to pay at least $600 dollars to play club. The lower the cost, breaking up payments, and offering scholarships to players, etc. are all ways of getting kids to participate.
I also imagine it benefits Swansea to have a somewhat local club where there girls can play together, as opposed to having them try out for Lexington or CUFC initially. It is hard to convince girls to try out for a club that is made up mostly of players from schools that your girls lose to by a large margin on a yearly basis. Not only are your kids intimidated, but the players from stronger schools can be condescending initially. Given time, the girls make new friends, and realize they can compete at a higher level, and it works wonders for their mentality at the high school level when facing the aforementioned schools.
In 2008, Westside Varsity Girls had 6/15 (1 Challenge, 4 Classic, 1 Rec) girls who played club the previous fall season, and 11/15 that had at least played club at some level before. In 2009, Westside Varsity should have 10 girls who played club soccer in the fall of 08 (2 Challenge, 8 Classic) and 13 that have at least played club at the classic level before, plus 5-6 on the JV team that played club soccer in the fall of 08. It will be interesting to see if the rise in numbers affects how competitive we are against teams that were stronger than us in 2008.
Last edited by Ryan Roseberry; 05/27/08 03:55 PM.
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Meredith,
Looks like you're checking the PI for the districts rather than the individual schools. In some districts, like Barnwell 19 (where I used to work) they're one and the same...Berkeley County is a very widespread district, though, with an equally wide array of communities feeding into the different schools. The demographics for Stratford and Hanahan, for example, are significantly different from those of Berkeley High, or Timberland or Cross.
Another thing that's worth checking when making comparisons is the breakdown of the demographics within the school zone, not just the PI. In many communities, there is a high poverty index because the majority of residents fall below the poverty line, but yet there still exists a core of affluence that still feeds into the school system. In a 4A school, it doesn't take a large percentage of the population to form a pretty decent soccer team. I wonder how many of the high PI yet successful teams' players actually come from that minority that can afford club, equipment, and other investment? If only 20 kids out of 1000 can afford to play year-round, you can still make a more-than-decent team. Just some thoughts.
I've got good news and bad news...
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And yes, RR, that does mean I recognize the importance of extra training and experience to form a highly competitive team. I agree completely about the team...I will disagree about the individual, but only in the case of the rare exception. That at least gives us a 50% accord...better than most folks here! You are dead on about the advantages to the players of clubs that keep the costs down...that is a major factor for many. You're right about the intimidation factor too. I had several girls from my high school team try out for club last week; they were almost scared to death to go and try to compete for spots on the team with players they thought were "elite." I think this is part of what is holding a lot of them back from trying out...we have billed this as an elite sport with elite programs, and those just starting out are afraid to get shown up and embarrassed by trying to get in on it. I like the fact that there are more and more opportunities for young players who have not necessarily grown up with the sport to find a place where they "fit" and get the experience that will make them better players.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Quote:
Ryan Roseberry,
Thanks, my theory still holds true.
Hardly, your theory is that a tennis coach could win with club players. Ryan merely pointed out that while the two girls I mentioned technically did not play club until U18, they did play club at an earlier age.
This will be the last thing I will say on this before I retire to my garden. This debate is along the lines of the old heredity vs. environment argument. You cannot win the argument on either side because THEY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.
The argument was debated and solved a long, long time ago.
If you don't believe me, go rent Trading Places.
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
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OP
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 289
Corner Kick
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Corner Kick
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 289 |
RR,
All very good points. However, I remember getting drilled by Dutch Fork 12-0 and with a region with BC, Airport, and Chapin-trying to become competitive is the driving factor of playing club. I coach in LLSC club and we all volunteer our time to make club available to our kids ($150)-it's a good thing. Why don't other clubs do the same? I know there are various reason. But, we are trying to expand the sport to include, not to exclude. However, you make some very valid arguments!
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