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Is it true that the general membership voted Cesa out of SSC? What does this mean and what now?
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The Bylaws and Constitution changes failed to obtain a 2/3 supermajority vote of the SSC members present by six votes.
Several ironies:
1) The Bylaws changes (governing issues) would have likely passed with 90%+ of the vote. The SSC Board forced an up or down vote on ALL changes which means SSC will continue to be governed by an unwieldy 13 member board despite the fact that the vast vast majority of members wanted to streamline club government.
2.) The Constitution changes (name and colors) would have very likely passed if CESA would have compromised on the proposed color change as it did compromise on the proposed name change. CESA-Summerville retaining blue over red would have won. CESA would not bend on the color red for marketing reasons (i.e., "branding").
3.) When the meeting started, more than 2/3 of the members present appeared to support the changes. I myself was leaning in the direction of voting yes despite misgivings about the Board forcing an up or down vote on all the changes. Then, a few folks asked some very pertinent questions that the Board members clearly had not contemplated. When the Board members looked startled and even a bit confused, Andrew Hyslop decided to start talking. Several members told me after the vote that it was Hyslop's condescending tone that actually caused them to change their mind to a "no" vote.
Notwithstanding the clumsy, ham-handedness of the whole process (and the heavy-handedness of forcing one up or down vote), all of the changes would have very very likely passed if someone else from CESA (Pearse Tormey or Andrew Fleming) had been the voice and face of CESA at the meeting. Suffice to say that Hyslop is no diplomat.
One of the things the Board revealed at the meeting is that CESA can back out of the 3 year management contract for any reason on 72 hours notice. If Tormey and Hyslop want to stay, the can run SSC for 3 years absent malfeasance or insubordination. If they want to pull up stakes, they can do it this weekend.
Last edited by oldskoolpinewood; 05/29/08 02:11 AM.
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closer outcome than I thought it would be
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As I said, it could have passed with just an inch of compromise and an ounce of diplomacy.
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Did anybody volunteer for one of the thirteen board positions? Let me guess...no
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Did anybody volunteer for one of the thirteen board positions? Let me guess...no
I think they had at least one new volunteer come forward and should have several members (including at least one absent from the meeting) come forward in the coming days. The more salient point is that anyone with any experience in business knows that a 13 member board is unnecessary if not counterproductive. A corporate board (whether for-profit or non) should set policy, donate (or raise) substantial sums of money, hire an administrator in which it has confidence and then GET OUT OF THE WAY. The idea that you should have volunteer board members in charge of day to day operations is patently absurd. The Bylaws addressing these governance issues are hopelessly outdated and needed changes would have easily passed if the membership had been given the opportunity to vote on them separately.
As I understand it, the entire SSC budget is less than 250k and registration and tryout/training fees make up a whopping 90% of the revenue stream. Only 3% of revenue comes from sponsorships and another 4% from tournaments/field rentals. That is not a model for long-term viability.
The management contract with CESA is one attempt to modernize the club. The Bylaws changes are necessary with or without CESA. The Constitution changes were unneccesary "hot-button" issues pushed by CESA for fuzzy-headed "branding" reasons. With or without CESA, SSC needs to make the bylaws changes to streamline governance of the club and it needs to dramatically improve and modernize its revenue stream to allow it to hire a capable administrator and D.O.C. With those changes in place, a bright enterprising young soccer person with the talent of a Andrew Fleming or maybe a SSC alum like a Will Plexico could cut CESA out of the loop and make a very nice living in Summerville.
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Maybe he likes working for CESA..Maybe the name alone would bring successful tournaments intead of cancellations due to lack of interest..Maybe SSC teams would get into some of those tournaments that they get turned away from..I believe only 129 members showed up and the vote was decided by six votes..If the room was full of newer members then there is a trend that change is going to come sooner or later..It's just the way things are today..New members are not going to be interested in SSC's history.They will want more for their money and make some history of their own..A third of the membership voted and things will move on from here..As long as people voted..that's all you can ask for
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..I believe only 129 members showed up and the vote was decided by six votes..If the room was full of newer members then there is a trend that change is going to come sooner or later..It's just the way things are today..New members are not going to be interested in SSC's history.They will want more for their money and make some history of their own..A third of the membership voted and things will move on from here..As long as people voted..that's all you can ask for
I suspect you and I agree on more than we disagree. I imagine 129 members is a lot for a SSC membership meeting. I cannot say for sure because I had never been to one. Here's the thing: I was never notified of a membership meeting before this one. I re-joined SSC after I moved back to Summerville in 2000. I have two children who have graduated out of micro. One has now graduated from rec. In years passed, I coached 4 seasons at SSC (2 as an assistant, 2 as an hc). I have never before been notified of a membership meeting, I have never been asked for any input of any kind, I have never been asked for so much as a $100.00 contribution to SSC.
Parents on SSC teams I have coached have included lawyers, doctors, financial advisors, bankers, CPAs, CEOs of manufacturing companies, major building contractors, etc. etc. To my knowledge, none of these parents have been asked by SSC to contribute in anyway except to pay registration fees, pay training fees, and either volunteer in the concession stand or pay $50.00 to avoid being scheduled to work in the concession stand (Pretty sure they all paid the $50.00 - who wouldn't?). The all-hands-on-deck parent volunteer approach served SSC well when I was first a member in the 1980s. Times have changed. Its long passed time to modernize club governance and revenue stream. The management contract with CESA was an initial attempt to do just that. The CESA folks can always honor the contract, go back to work full steam in the morning and re-submit their "branding" proposals again in December or next year. Or they can walk away from their contractual obligations over six votes and red jerseys. Regardless of the choices of two people in Greenville, SSC will prosper if it streamlines governance and improves and modernizes its revenue stream to hire full-time, on-site personnel to administer its programs and directs its coaches.
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Maybe he likes working for CESA..
I am sure Mr. Fleming very much likes working for CESA. CESA is by all accounts a fine organization that serves Greenville well. Fleming is bright, energetic, and talented. More importantly, Fleming is not a sap. If CESA were to walk away from SSC and SSC were to offer Fleming every dime he would have made as DOC of CESA-Summerville plus 50% of the money that would have gone to Tormey and Hyslop as "consulting fees", Andrew Fleming (like anyone else in their right mind)is on board running day to day operations at SSC. It doesn't matter how much he may like working for CESA, he is not a sap. If CESA were to pony up more money to keep Fleming, SSC could hire a young energetic SSC alum like Will Plexico who happens to be a current CESA-Columbia coach.
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>>Or they can walk away from their contractual obligations over six votes and red jerseys.<<
This is fascinating. There are "contractual obligations" that will be "walked away from"?
Despite all of the rhetoric, isn't this a situation in which SSC asked TH (Tormey/Hyslop) for help, TH set conditions and SSC decided it didn't like those conditions. Now TH can certainly "walk away" from SSC because SSC failed to meet those conditions, but there are no "contractual obligations" anyone is walking away from -- there is simply a failure by two parties to reach terms.
It's obvious that you see TH and even Flemming as relative "cogs" in the sense that if they walk, then you just get others to do the job. While I may strongly disagree that this is the way you successfully operate this business, I respect your beliefs that you can get go out and get a young energetic person to achieve all of your goals. It's clear that while most of those present at this SSC meeting don't believe in the philosophy of what you're saying, enough do so that the potential deal has been scuttled.
So I'm hoping that TH and Flemming do "walk away" cleanly from this. SSC has voted and needs to move on in a direction that you (and others) believe to be a better one for the club -- one that honors the rich history of SSC in terms of its name and colors. I understand that there may be hope that TH (and Fleming) may decided to work for less than the terms they set forth. I quite often hope that my doctor will come to my house for appointments and work for half his rate -- but I of course understand and respect the fact that if I don't follow his terms I can't expect to get treated -- likewise I'd hope that the folks at SSC would understand that if they didn't decide to abide by the terms set forth, that those who set those terms are under no conceivable obligation to continue to provide services.
The only folks I feel even a little sorry for are the kids that will not get better services because there were people who prioritized those behind honoring this rich history. But this is the reason I always say competition is good -- because Bridge is out there (as are other clubs.) Heck -- SSC might be able to by itself turn on a dime and by itself change the downward direction of the club and by itself offer these superior services. I sincerely hope that it does. It's now time for all of the folks at SSC who agree with you to in addition to typing on message boards also spend the thousands and thousands of hours it's going to take to make this happen -- not just in terms of the fun things but in terms of the grinding day-to-day labor associated with marketing, fundraising, tournament organization, and the countless other things that so few clubs ever do well. I sincerely wish you the best in this endeavor.
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So I'm hoping that TH and Flemming do "walk away" cleanly from this.
Ditto, lets bring ' em home. Best wishes SSC. 
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I would not have any problems with them leaving..after all the vote did not go their way..One encouraging note is that out of 129 votes..81 was on their side..If it was a 50/50 vote the kids would of won..It is a situation that could be won over time if Andrew decided to give it chance and win some parents over the next year..Or I guess it's back to the drawing board..
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The Bylaws and Constitution changes failed to obtain a 2/3 supermajority vote of the SSC members present by six votes.
Several ironies:
1) The Bylaws changes (governing issues) would have likely passed with 90%+ of the vote. The SSC Board forced an up or down vote on ALL changes which means SSC will continue to be governed by an unwieldy 13 member board despite the fact that the vast vast majority of members wanted to streamline club government.
2.) The Constitution changes (name and colors) would have very likely passed if CESA would have compromised on the proposed color change as it did compromise on the proposed name change. CESA-Summerville retaining blue over red would have won. CESA would not bend on the color red for marketing reasons (i.e., "branding").
3.) When the meeting started, more than 2/3 of the members present appeared to support the changes. I myself was leaning in the direction of voting yes despite misgivings about the Board forcing an up or down vote on all the changes. Then, a few folks asked some very pertinent questions that the Board members clearly had not contemplated. When the Board members looked startled and even a bit confused, Andrew Hyslop decided to start talking. Several members told me after the vote that it was Hyslop's condescending tone that actually caused them to change their mind to a "no" vote.
Notwithstanding the clumsy, ham-handedness of the whole process (and the heavy-handedness of forcing one up or down vote), all of the changes would have very very likely passed if someone else from CESA (Pearse Tormey or Andrew Fleming) had been the voice and face of CESA at the meeting. Suffice to say that Hyslop is no diplomat.
One of the things the Board revealed at the meeting is that CESA can back out of the 3 year management contract for any reason on 72 hours notice. If Tormey and Hyslop want to stay, the can run SSC for 3 years absent malfeasance or insubordination. If they want to pull up stakes, they can do it this weekend.
oldskoolpinewood,
I have known Hyslop for a few years now but have only had coversations with him on a few occasions when it concerned my daughters team or the recruitment process she is in. This is just my opinion but i have never seen him to be condesending or rude as you have stated. Maybe what some of you have perceived as condesending was actually straight forwardness and honesty.I have never seen him pull any punches but if you want someone to be honest and tell you exactly what he means and how he means it then that is him. You said if Tormey or Flemming spoke it may have been different. I feel sure they would of given the same info Hyslop did. If all of you made decisions about your kids soccer future on someone seeming condesending then i hate it for you. Maybe he just did not say what all of you wanted him to say. He is no yes man. My first experience with Andrew was my daughters first year trying out at cesa. He gathered all the parents up from each age group and told everyone that "if your kid is on a premier team going to reginals and you do not make the team you want this year and you back out of reginals then you will not play for cesa". I knew then i would like it at cesa because a bunch of parents would not run the club.it has not always been smooth sailing at cesa but it has been more good than bad.
You all may have made the right decision by not voting for cesa. You will not know for awhile. One thing is for sure. With cesa's track record you may have made the wrong decision.
Summerville is a great area with great people. My brother lives over in jetburg. My first taste of sticky fingers was in Summerville. My oldest has played in summerville many times with club,tournys and odp and we always enjoy coming down there.Good luck and i hope everything works out for Summerville soccer.
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Jim: I'll have to admit, I got a smile out of the phrase "Suffice to say that Hyslop is no diplomat." I'd put it differently -- Hyslop (and Tormey) are a Bolton or Kirkpatrick type of diplomat rather than a Carter type of diplomat.
When I served on the board with them, the most refreshing thing about TH was the complete lack of bullcrap. We didn't always agree, but there was never any hiding behind platitudes -- if there was a problem, then the problem was addressed head on without the platitudes and evasions you see in so many non-profits.
The SSC board made a decision on a radical change of direction for SSC. It was put to a vote. I don't believe that the members of SSC who voted against it are stupid enough to have done so because of a name or color change. The underlying tension between the board and the membership is over whether radical change is needed. I can't think of anyone better than TH in helping lead radical change -- and I can't think of anyone worse at trying to make some half-rear-ended changes. These aren't half-rear-ended kind of guys.
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Soccer in the Lowcountry shoots itself in the foot yet again. Why is it the closer to the coast you get the more egos there are?
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Jim: I'll have to admit, I got a smile out of the phrase "Suffice to say that Hyslop is no diplomat." I'd put it differently -- Hyslop (and Tormey) are a Bolton or Kirkpatrick type of diplomat rather than a Carter type of diplomat.
When I served on the board with them, the most refreshing thing about TH was the complete lack of bullcrap. We didn't always agree, but there was never any hiding behind platitudes -- if there was a problem, then the problem was addressed head on without the platitudes and evasions you see in so many non-profits.
The SSC board made a decision on a radical change of direction for SSC. It was put to a vote. I don't believe that the members of SSC who voted against it are stupid enough to have done so because of a name or color change. The underlying tension between the board and the membership is over whether radical change is needed. I can't think of anyone better than TH in helping lead radical change -- and I can't think of anyone worse at trying to make some half-rear-ended changes. These aren't half-rear-ended kind of guys.
Here's the deal: Hyslop took a very "my way or the highway" approach at the meeting. That may work in Greenville - a textile mill town that despite A LOT OF VERY POSITIVE changes in the last 20 years still looks up to a Yankee plutocrat like Roger Milliken like he's some sort of God. That's not how it works in the Lowcountry.
I spent four years in God's Country (Pickens County) and still today spend every available weekend in the Blue Ridge mountains about 45 minutes north of Furman. Northern Greenville County and western Dorchester County (the Edisto River) are two of my favorite places on the planet. But what works in Greenville is not necessarily going to work in Summerville and vice-versa. In Greenville, the boss man and the preacher man still rule most every detail of a lot of folks' lives. In some ways, it's amazing Summerville and Greenville are even in the same state. Down here, we are very independent to the point of being rebellious. We started an incredibly bloody 4 year civil war for no particular reason (we were bored with the standoff and tired of looking at union troops in the harbor so we just started a little artillery fire to see what would happen). That didn't work out so well. Maybe not agreeing to wear red jerseys (which really was the last issue of contention on which CESA would not bend) will be the death knell of soccer in the Lowcountry. I sort of doubt it.
My point is that CESA and SSC were on the precipice of reaching a very radical agreement. Obviously, Tormey and Hyslop were going to benefit from the agreement. You would have thought that Hyslop would have been on his best behaviour at the meeting. If you can't smile and be pleasant to people while at the same time being completely truthful and straight-forward, then folks are going to think you are arrogant if not downright full of contempt for them. Its not that hard to be pleasant while speaking the truth.
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old pine dude, I think you are living in a vacuum in the Summerville. Greenville is not anything like what you are stating. I believe you are upset that an outsider was brought in to right the ship. If you dislike Greenville this much then stay in Summerville with your so called southern buddies. In Greenville the southern people listen and embrace change when it will benefit the kids playing soccer. I hope Summerville can change a become a club where kids can play soccer at the level the choose and not that of their parents choosing.  By the way Roger's business is in Spartanburg.
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someone correct me here on oldpineheads history lesson.who in summerville started the war between the states.that was a heck of a cannon shot from there to ft sumter.
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Marcus - you need to re-read my post. Northern Greenville county is one of my favorite places on the planet. I spend almost every available weekend there. Greenville has changed dramatically in the last 20 years - all for the better. When I was at Clemson with Pearse Tormey, downtown Greenville was no-man's land. The whole county was literally dying as textile mill after textile mill closed. I am well aware that Milliken's HQ is in Sparkle City. I also know that his influence over Greenville is immense. Without him, no airport and no BMW. I am not sure where Greenville would be without old Roger but he still is a Yankee plutocrat and not a God.
For the record, the first shots of the Civil War were probably fired by Citadel cadets on the Star of the West. The first shots on Ft. Sumter were fired by Charlestonians. Summerville was literally a "summer village" founded by Charlestonians in the 1840s. Its first year-round residents were refugees fleeing the Bombardment of Charleston in the 1860s. In Summerville, we are the "country cousins" of Charlestonians. Though we may not always care for our city cousins downtown, we have much more in common with them than we have with the upstate.
Of course, none of this has anything to do with soccer. My point is this: if CESA had bothered to recognize the vast differences between Greenville and Summerville, they probably could have "won the vote" last night. This begs the question: is there any guarantee that the "CESA model" would work in the Lowcountry? The answer is no, there is no guarantee. It may well work, but it might not. So why not allow CESA an opportunity to make it work for a year or so before changing the SSC Constitution? The answer to that appears to be that Hyslop might not be quite so confident after all - that he wanted the Constitution changes in advance just in case he couldn't quite make it work down here. As somebody said last night, CESA "wanted a shotgun wedding when nobody was pregnant."
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CESA "wanted a shotgun wedding when nobody was pregnant." That's pretty funny! 
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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im sorry oldpdiddy but i thought somewhere in your post you made light to being bored of looking at union troops and yall started a bloody 4 year war for no reason.i assumed that meant someone in summerville.i must of been mistaken.you must of did a bad job because them yanks are still here.
you are right that cesa may of not worked but it seems the summerville way is not working or you would not be at this point.
i work for shaw industries.when they buy out something they may or may not leave managment in place but no matter who is left in charge you start doing it the shaw way.
maybe that is why warren buffet has billions.
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So, if CESA were to let Summerville keep its colors, and simply add a "CESA" before SSC would that solve the whole thing? Maybe CESA should suck it up and let the colonies have their own colors. Doesn't seem like that big of a deal. Or is there more to it??
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i work for shaw industries.when they buy out something they may or may not leave managment in place but no matter who is left in charge you start doing it the shaw way.
maybe that is why warren buffet has billions.
I guess I missed something here. Did CESA make an offer to "buy out" SSC? If so, I understand your point. However, if SSC approached CESA seeking management support services then SSC would be the customer in the relationship. Given a vendor/customer relationship I might expect SSC to be just as hesitant of accepting a CESA "branding" as a customer of Shaw Industries would be of changing its letterhead to include the Shaw logo just because it is a customer.
Couple of notes to unrelated posts... I've never known anything of Jedburg that would justify changing "Jed" to "Jet", all cadets are not and were not Charlestonians, and Summerville was already incorporated before any shelling of Charleston began... at least before the shelling referred to.
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LaGrazie: My guess is that there's more to it. Traditionally, trying to move from a typical soccer club model to a professional model tends to have the most problems around issues such as parents wanting to coach their own children, parents wanting more control over coaching selection (vetoing certain coaches who might have cut their child in the past, etc.), parents wanting more control over tournaments attended, parents/coaches wanting to train less than is required at the higher levels of a professional club (twice a week versus three times a week or more), etc. As in the normal corporate world, issues associated with corporate-level branding are typically symptomatic of a deeper root cause -- the desire for the existing culture to stay the same and yet somehow magically the results to differ.
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i work for shaw industries.when they buy out something they may or may not leave managment in place but no matter who is left in charge you start doing it the shaw way.
maybe that is why warren buffet has billions.
I guess I missed something here. Did CESA make an offer to "buy out" SSC? If so, I understand your point. However, if SSC approached CESA seeking management support services then SSC would be the customer in the relationship. Given a vendor/customer relationship I might expect SSC to be just as hesitant of accepting a CESA "branding" as a customer of Shaw Industries would be of changing its letterhead to include the Shaw logo just because it is a customer.
Couple of notes to unrelated posts... I've never known anything of Jedburg that would justify changing "Jed" to "Jet", all cadets are not and were not Charlestonians, and Summerville was already incorporated before any shelling of Charleston began... at least before the shelling referred to.
deltadog my shaw reference was made in response to the statment that why not let cesa take over at ssc but basically leave the constitution in place for a year.there are only a few occasions where i have seen shaw take over a company and not give it the shaw name.(branding as you call it)on those few occasions the reason for letting those companys keep their name was because they were good enough to stand on their own.seems ssc is starting to have a problem on doing that or they would not of seeked out cesa.do you really think that ssc was looking for managment support.it seems some at ssc wanted a buy out.
as far as jedburg or jetburg i do not know.i do not send my brother any letters since we have cell phones these days but thanks for pointing it out.
you will have to get with oldpinedudet on the civil war history lesson.i really do not care who was the correct idiot that started the war.
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>>[Marcus Aurelius] do you really think that ssc was looking for managment support.it seems some at ssc wanted a buy out.<<
"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars, But in ourselves, that we are underlings." [Shakespeare]
"You can't have your cake and eat it to." [My Mom]
You've hit the nail on the head. The human condition is to want something without paying the price necessary to obtain it.
P.S. [Holy freakin' cow -- I really like your new screen name.]
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Sounds to me like CESA wanted to change the dress code to business attire, while the folks in Summerville ultimately decided to remain business casual. 
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Hurst66: Close, but not my assessment. To use your analogy.
SSC decides it wants to gain more revenue by being more professional. SSC hires some folks to help them achieve that. These specialists tell them that they need to fundamentally change the way they do business -- and also dress in a manner that reflects the change.
SSC puts it to a vote and fails to gain a super-majority. SSC members voting against it immediately want the specialists to keep working there despite failing to meet the minimum conditions laid for by those specialists -- and lay the defeat of the board at the feet of the specialists who they say should be more ready to compromise (or at least lie better about compromising.)
I think folks should reap what they sow.
P.S. All of this analogy loses the essential reality of the situation and gives it more dignity than it deserves...I think it's more accurate to bellow out "I wanna coach my own kid...I don't want that jerk over there coachin' my kid...I don't wanna go to that stoopid tourney...but I still want ya' to come and work here with us I jus want you to do things the way I want 'em done" and it gets more at the heart of the matter. Of course I could be wrong -- there could have been a core of people who decided that the most important thing about a club providing services to their children was what color they wore and what the name was...but it doesn't pass the "smell" test.
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From reading your posts on this subject (and on CESA in general), it seems to me that there is really no secret to what CESA (or Tormey/Hyslop, to the extent there's a distinction in this context), would bring to SSC. The "CESA way" isn't mysterious and it isn't like they've mastered cold fusion or invented a perpetual motion machine. If I have it right, what they would bring to SSC is a more professional structure, characterized by a couple of particular elements:
1. Soccer program is run from the top - by employee directors who eliminate or minimize unwanted and counterproductive parental interference.
2. Training improvements based on better coaches conducting more frequent and more productive sessions, modeled after the CESA-Greenville methods.
3?
Additionally, I suppose part of what they would bring is the reputation for success that they have earned in G'ville, with the presumed attendant allure to SSC players who might have drifted elsewhere and might return "home."
If SSC's membership understands what it would be getting with the "CESA way," and wants that, how difficult would it be to replicate on its own?
As I type this it occurs to me that the fundamental question I'm asking can be distilled to: How important are the CESA brand and the involvement of Tormey and Hyslop to SSC's attaining its presumed goals?
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i work for shaw industries.when they buy out something they may or may not leave managment in place but no matter who is left in charge you start doing it the shaw way.
maybe that is why warren buffet has billions.
I guess I missed something here. Did CESA make an offer to "buy out" SSC? If so, I understand your point. However, if SSC approached CESA seeking management support services then SSC would be the customer in the relationship. Given a vendor/customer relationship I might expect SSC to be just as hesitant of accepting a CESA "branding" as a customer of Shaw Industries would be of changing its letterhead to include the Shaw logo just because it is a customer.
You missed nothing, Delta Dog. You have it right.
CESA was never invited to "buy out" SSC. No merger between CESA and SSC was ever proposed. First, SCYSA would never recognize a merger between CESA and SSC. Second, a number of legal issues (to include the long-term property lease with Dorchester County) prevent anyone but SSC from governing the youth soccer club operating at the SSC fields.
SSC was in the process of hiring a DOC when Messrs. Hyslop and Tormey proposed a management contract whereby the two of them would be responsible for day-to-day operations at the club (to include placing and managing a DOC) under the direction of SSC. A 3 year management contract was negotiated and entered into. As part of the contract, Hyslop and Tormey wanted to be able to place the CESA "brand" on SSC teams. This proposed "brand-name change" required a 2/3 vote to change the SSC Constitution. 81 SSC members approved the changes, 48 did not. The vote failed by 6 votes.
Apparently, the management contract allows Hyslop and Tormey to walk away with 72 hours notice. Speculation is that they may exercise that option at this time because "only" 62.8% of SSC members approved their request to use the CESA brand. The irony is that if Hyslop and Tormey do walk away their actions will reinforce the argument that a Constitution change was too drastic for a 3 year management agreement. If Hyslop and Tormey didn't re-up after 3 years or opted out at some point during the 3 years (or if SSC terminated the agreement for whatever reason), then another Constitution change would be required. All over a d/b/a name and a jersey color.
Regardless of where any SSC member comes down on Hyslop, Tormey, CESA, or red jerseys, there was never an invitation for CESA to "buy out" SSC nor was there ever an attempt to "merge" SSC with CESA. There was an attempt to hire Hyslop and Tormey as club managers and it appeared for a time that attempt was successful. At most, it could be argued that Hyslop and Tormey wanted to be hired as managers at SSC only if they could utilize a brand-name that might lead people to believe there was somehow a buy-out or merger. Again, this controversy is and was always about marketing and not about soccer.
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SSC's search for a DOC was unsuccesful..that's when they looked to CESA for help..The only thing we needed to consider in this election was wether or not this was in the best interest of the kids..You act as if you own something they want..Who needed this more? SSC idling along or CESA who is clicking on all cylinders? Your previous posts suggests that you had not interest in listening to anything they had to say..Talked down too? You based your decision on that? Don't tell us that..tell the kids that
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Marco Aurelio: “i really do not care who was the correct idiot that started the war” . . . them is pretty serious fightin words. You must not be from around here. BTW, do you know the difference between and yankee and a dang (wouldn't let me use the real word) yankee? Nevermind . . . getting back to the original subject . . .
FWIW…it sounds to me like a majority of SSC parents really did want to make the change (or A change), but just did not care for Hyslop’s “condescending tone.”
I have had conversations with both Tormey and Hyslop, and have heard conversations they’ve both had with other people (hey, I wasn’t TRYING to eavesdrop), and while they can be just like you say, Marco, they can also swing the other way (no reference there other than to soccer diplomacy, or lack thereof).
Old Stool makes an excellent point – it is actually possible to be “straight-forward and honest,” and not “pull any punches,” without giving “attitude.” Remember, SSC is/was looking to hire these two - would you allow any of your employees (or anyone you were interviewing) to “talk down” to you?
Keep in mind also that many of these parents have experienced coaches in the past who have not had the best communications/diplomacy skills – and many still have a bad taste in their mouths from it – I don’t think they want to get themselves back into a similar situation.
Here’s another theory I haven’t seen expressed here: is it possible that the board of directors at SSC, after many, many years of low and/or basically non-existent parent participation, came up with a novel idea for getting these same parents to get involved? Said plan being, hire the current directors of a club that they knew many (local) people did not care for, change the name to include that of the “hated” club, and also change the colors to those of that same club; KNOWING that it was pretty much a win-win situation. The two possible outcomes they might have expected to see: 1) the new “managers” do a great job, membership increases, the level of satisfaction of members increases, and SSC becomes a sleek, well-run, profitable and highly successful club, OR 2) the whole idea of “sleeping with the enemy” infuriates so many people that all of a sudden, SSC now has large numbers of members volunteering their time and energy the way it always should have been, and SSC returns to a place of prominence within the state of South Carolina.
Just a thought…
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coldhardtruth,
Right on.
What did the parents who voted "no" tell they kids? We did it kids we beat CESA tonight and you will not have to wear the "red or black" jerseys. You will still play soccer with the guys from last year ... unless they move to the other club to have better training...doesn't matter "We Beat CESA tonight".
Last edited by Kwai Chang Caine; 05/30/08 01:14 PM.
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Since we are throwing out thoughts..Has anybody considered that maybe they are trying to raise the level of soccer in S.C. Should it not be every club's responsibility to help raise the level of soccer in S.C.? Maybe we would have more interaction in between clubs if more were competitive..Maybe we would not have to travel to kingdom come if the level of play in S.C. was more balanced
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you want to know soccer in the lowcountry? A handful of clubs fighting over a handful of kids..Check the websites..you will see the same names listed at two or three clubs..In four years my child has worn three different colors of jersey..Guess what?..Her skin never broke out and she lived to play another day
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Caine,
I love beating CESA!!! I have that much respect for what they do..Most age groups the teams and the second teams they field are the best in the state. When you beat THAT!! you feel like you accomplished something
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Since we are throwing out thoughts
Maybe this contract between CESA and Summerville was the starting point for a united soccer environment in the Charleston area. The CESA team manages Summerville for 3 years and puts the structure in place. Then Summerville uses this to combine with other Charleston clubs to become next successful club in SC...
Just thoughts....... 
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CHT,
I agree winning against CESA shows your talent level and skill level have improved. Look at Ohio State they make to the final two years in a row and lose to the SEC teams. When Ohio State breaks through this slump they will have accomplished the end goal to be champions. But how do they get to this point? I would bet changes are needed. It looks like changes are needed in Summerville, Bridge, Mt.Pleasant, DI, JI and other ones I can't remember right now. I believe Summerville has missed a great opportunity with the price of gas going up parents/players are thinking about staying closer to home to play. The new CESA-Summerville could have swayed them to stay in Charleston.
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Marco Aurelio: “i really do not care who was the correct idiot that started the war” . . . them is pretty serious fightin words. You must not be from around here.
sorry man but i am from around here. i was born and raised here and there is written documents of my family being in sc before 1730.one of my direct decendants was one of the CO's at battery wagner when the 54th mass came walking down the beach.
"CONFINE YOURSELF TO THE PRESENT" MARCUS AURELIUS
now back to soccer
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What is next for summerville? Do they continue on their own or do they try working something out with one of the other low country clubs?
We can all go to the boys thread and talk about jim rome.we would all get along and agree on that subject.
"DO EVERY ACT OF YOU LIFE AS IF IT WERE YOUR LAST"
MARCUS AURELIUS
Last edited by Marcus Aurelius; 05/30/08 02:12 PM.
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SSC's search for a DOC was unsuccesful..that's when they looked to CESA for help..The only thing we needed to consider in this election was wether or not this was in the best interest of the kids..You act as if you own something they want..Who needed this more? SSC idling along or CESA who is clicking on all cylinders? Your previous posts suggests that you had not interest in listening to anything they had to say..Talked down too? You based your decision on that? Don't tell us that..tell the kids that
I wish I were as eloquent; that's precisely what I've been thinking and wondering.
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Here’s another theory I haven’t seen expressed here: is it possible that the board of directors at SSC, after many, many years of low and/or basically non-existent parent participation, came up with a novel idea for getting these same parents to get involved? Said plan being, hire the current directors of a club that they knew many (local) people did not care for, change the name to include that of the “hated” club, and also change the colors to those of that same club; KNOWING that it was pretty much a win-win situation. The two possible outcomes they might have expected to see: 1) the new “managers” do a great job, membership increases, the level of satisfaction of members increases, and SSC becomes a sleek, well-run, profitable and highly successful club, OR 2) the whole idea of “sleeping with the enemy” infuriates so many people that all of a sudden, SSC now has large numbers of members volunteering their time and energy the way it always should have been, and SSC returns to a place of prominence within the state of South Carolina.
Just a thought…
I like this so much better than the incessant whining about TH "walking away" from a club after terms weren't met. True, SSC would have shown a lack of integrity and in my mind a lack of moral and ethical values -- but at least if this is the case SSC is taking control of its own destiny instead of having a bunch of parents who voted against doing a deal whining about not getting the fruits of the deal they rejected.
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>>[Happy Daddy] As I type this it occurs to me that the fundamental question I'm asking can be distilled to: How important are the CESA brand and the involvement of Tormey and Hyslop to SSC's attaining its presumed goals?<<
It's a fair question. From what I've seen, predating CESA and going back to GFC and SGU, there have been two and only two individuals in South Carolina who have regularly and reliably been able to achieve consistently outstanding results at a club level and who are willing to do not just coaching but all aspects of management it takes to run a successful business. If I were on a normal company's board of directors, I'd consider moving heaven and earth to get them involved with my company -- because of that. But non-profits are always trickier -- because in general even board members are not often truly aligned with the goal of doing business better and instead have various reasons for investing their time and energy.
What I tend to see in business are a lot of people who underestimate the combination of brilliance, tenacity, and passion it takes to do something better than most others who are doing it. In normal business, I like that -- because it means the winnings are bigger for those that don't underestimate it. In SC soccer, where I honestly believe win/win is the right approach, I don't like it as much...
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SSC decides it wants to gain more revenue by being more professional. SSC hires some folks to help them achieve that. These specialists tell them that they need to fundamentally change the way they do business -- and also dress in a manner that reflects the change.
Playing devil's advocate (again), but...
What does the color of a uniform have to do with reflecting a change in the way operations are run (Essentially, it's the same garb, only a different color...not exactly "business dress" vs. "business casual")--except perhaps to mark possession by an organization that wants to claim full credit for any success?
I've got good news and bad news...
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Coach Chass: I've always wondered why business professionals simply don't go around in loincloths. The good news is that now SSC can continue to use the name "Summerville" and its historic colors to ensure that they receive full credit for all of their upcoming tremendous success!
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Coach Chass: I've always wondered why business professionals simply don't go around in loincloths.
We're testing those out on Friday dress-down days at school this year. They're exceptionally comfortable...I think they'll be all the rage soon.
I've got good news and bad news...
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>>[Coach Chass] What does the color of a uniform have to do with reflecting a change in the way operations are run (Essentially, it's the same garb, only a different color...not exactly "business dress" vs. "business casual")--except perhaps to mark possession by an organization that wants to claim full credit for any success?<<
After kidding around, I think this deserves a serious answer. Of course, this will only be speculation -- a "if I were in their shoes" kind of answer.
If I had achieved what has been achieved by those leading CESA (e.g., respect in the region, leadership in the state, tournaments, etc.) and someone asked me to come in and help a club, I wouldn't want to start from scratch. I'd like to use what I had created previously to give me an easier first step on what I had to do with the new entity. In addition, since the organization CESA still paid the bulk of my bills and I led it full-time, I'd be interested in pursuing this such that I tried to help both organizations.
Practically, this means that I would use the name and colors to try to attract those players who weren't previously attracted to "SSC." I'd try to use the name to create bigger tournaments (note: I always thought it was a mistake to name this thing CESA-Summerville -- no one wants to go to Summerville for a tournament -- but there's a great chance people want to go to Charleston.) I'd use the name to try to push into tournaments I'd had trouble getting into before (e.g., Disney, WAGS, etc.)
Now -- at the same time -- if a company wants me to come in and lead a radical change in the company's operations, I'm going to do so both on an operational level and a symbolic level. I'm going to investigate changing the name -- and do so if it turns out that it makes business sense from a brand-awareness perspective because I know it's going to make sense from the perspective of sending the message that we are going to fundamentally change the way we do things (e.g., daddy ball is out, professional management and coaching is in, etc.) Even if I can't change the name, I'm going to change the logo (e.g., the colors) to reflect the new culture and environment. I'm going to use those changes to reinforce the operational changes -- because I know that human beings HATE change and will in a passive-aggressive way do anything they can to nod their heads and then still do things the way that they used to.
I know that it's easy to demonize people when you disagree with them. But it's all too often the easy way out and doesn't get at the root issues. As "cht" said, if people really made the decision to reject this deal not because they think they can do it better but instead because the don't like names and colors -- well, I just can't imagine explaining that to my kid. But as I understand it, a fair number of the people rejecting it had already made their mind to leave SSC and go to Bridge -- so I guess in the end at least some of the folks that voted made a rational choice...
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i was told once that people do not like change when it is not their idea no matter if the change is good for them or not.
maybe it will all work out for everyone.
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(note: I always thought it was a mistake to name this thing CESA-Summerville -- no one wants to go to Summerville for a tournament -- but there's a great chance people want to go to Charleston.)
This is one of the big reasons that Baptist College changed their name to Charleston Southern University years ago. To use the "Charleston" attraction although they are not located in Charleston proper.
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(note: I always thought it was a mistake to name this thing CESA-Summerville -- no one wants to go to Summerville for a tournament -- but there's a great chance people want to go to Charleston.)
This is one of the big reasons that Baptist College changed their name to Charleston Southern University years ago. To use the "Charleston" attraction although they are not located in Charleston proper.
Truth in advertising is important but Ladson Southern University just doesn't have the same ring to it.
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CHT,
I would bet changes are needed. It looks like changes are needed in Summerville, Bridge, Mt.Pleasant, DI, JI and other ones I can't remember right now. I believe Summerville has missed a great opportunity with the price of gas going up parents/players are thinking about staying closer to home to play. The new CESA-Summerville could have swayed them to stay in Charleston.
Look at all the clubs listed above with a few missing ...somebody needs to realize Charleston area will have a hard time competing against bigger clubs and other states if we keep adding more and more clubs for the kids to play. it seems if you aren't happy with one coach or club just go to another...there are plenty to choose from. Let the ego's go and combine some clubs so we can have some competitive teams.I know of numerous negotiations that have happened over the years but never work out. What's the problem ?
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The discussion of a unified place for the lowcountry challenge player has been going around for years. We've had people working really hard to make that happen and it always falls through by only a few people. Six votes in this instance, one person at town hall in Mt P, etc. In these discussions one of the solutions was to model after CESA. We are not SSC members and were willing to make the drive to Summerville CESA and give it a shot because of CESA success. . However, before tryouts SSC parents were complaining they could not keep their parent coaches, etc. I thought the point of hiring consultants was to change the status quo?? It did not sound like anything was changing (which was SSC's right) and the appeal was lost. The initial reason for looking elsewhere was the possibility that BFA would not be able to secure fields. BFA leadership resolved the field issue and we are thankful to BFA for their continued vision for the challenge player. We are happily sticking with BFA!
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The initial reason for looking elsewhere was the possibility that BFA would not be able to secure fields. BFA leadership resolved the field issue and we are thankful to BFA for their continued vision for the challenge player.
We are happily sticking with BFA!
We are too!!!!!!!!!
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I just want a place for my daughter to play where the coaches are there to teach the kids soccer. I had a very bad experience with a "licenced coach" on an "academy" team at SSC that left a bad taste in my mouth. I voted yes to CESA hoping that a non-biased management system would allow the club to weed-out the bad coaches(or at least make them actually perform) that seem to be able to stick around season after season. Now my daughter will be playing in another club close by hopefully getting some individual skills training and team training that I was expecting from SSC. I hope for the children's sake that someone is able to come in and turn SSC into the business it needs to be and not the political environment that it currently is. I don't care about names or the colors of the club that my daughter plays for, all i want is the best possible training and opportunities for the future. This being said, I really hope that things at SSC turn around and soccer becomes the focal point so that my daughter can go back there and thrive - that is until there is a team for her age at BFA
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I had a very bad experience with a "licenced coach" on an "academy" team at SSC that left a bad taste in my mouth.
What about these licensed coaches? "What license does Steve Spurrier or Tommy Bowden have for football?" I realize that these are different sports with different credentials, but still it begs the question.
I find it hard to believe that an "A" or "B" licensed coach knows more simply on an awarded basis than some coaches that have done this professionally for more than a decade or two, Some of these "awardees" are nothing more than former college players that have 'played at a high level' and are then grandfathered in as "coaches", though they don't know the first thing about management, teaching, scheduling, etc.
"I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles"
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I had a very bad experience with a "licenced coach" on an "academy" team at SSC that left a bad taste in my mouth.
What about these licensed coaches? "What license does Steve Spurrier or Tommy Bowden have for football?" I realize that these are different sports with different credentials, but still it begs the question.
I find it hard to believe that an "A" or "B" licensed coach knows more simply on an awarded basis than some coaches that have done this professionally for more than a decade or two, Some of these "awardees" are nothing more than former college players that have 'played at a high level' and are then grandfathered in as "coaches", though they don't know the first thing about management, teaching, scheduling, etc.
i think the old ball coach has a national championship under his belt.does that count as a license?
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After kidding around, I think this deserves a serious answer. Of course, this will only be speculation -- a "if I were in their shoes" kind of answer.
As always, a very well-reasoned speculation, and also a well-thought-out business model. Again, I'm pretty much just playing devil's advocate; I'm not involved in the situation except through peripheral relationships, and I don't have any firsthand view of the meeting or knowledge of the details of the proposed business relationship between SSC and CESA. There are too many variables there that I'm not knowledgeable about to make any kind of judgement about what was "proper" or "improper" from a business arrangement perspective, because I don't know the exact nature of the proposed business arrangement.
There's also been a lot of speculation about culture, though, and it seems that may have played a bigger role. That's the thing even a logically sound business model often doesn't take into account...the respect for the cultural identity of the stakeholders on both sides of a potential arrangement.
Shibumi, from your recently-adopted moniker, I think it's safe to say you're somewhat familiar with Eastern cultures, in particular, the very strong sense of honor that is such a deeply-rooted part of every aspect of life and is often very hard for a Western mind to understand. Offer a Japanese businessman the most profitable deal, but in a manner that compromises his honor--even in a slight and completely unintentional way--and you will usually be left wondering why he politely but very firmly turned it down; in fact, he would cut off his own hand before accepting. Learn how to make arrangements for accomplishing the same goals while still respecting and accomodating his sense of honor, though, and you may find yourself with a deal.
Japan isn't the only culture that has a strong, and often incomprehensible to outsiders, sense of honor. Here, we're more likely to call it pride, but it means about the same thing. Anyone wishing to have dealings with folks of this culture need to understand this, and understand that sometimes it's not what you offer; it's how you offer it. A "straightforward, no-nonsense" approach, no matter how honest and valid, isn't always what works...and if it doesn't work, it doesn't matter how honest and valid the arguments are. Perception is reality; it doesn't matter whether someone is talking down to you or not. What matters is whether they are perceived as talking down to you.
As has already been mentioned, this is a culture of men and women who were willing to fight a war against an entity they saw as an outside entity that sought to exert unwelcome control, with the focal flashpoint being an antiquated agricultural model that would have been obsolete within a few years anyway...simply because they didn't want to be forced by outsiders to do even what was inevitable anyway. They lost that war, and suffered for it...knew that was the likelihood going in...but you'd be hard pressed to find any of their descendents who would say they regret that they stood up and fought it. They'd rather lose on their own two feet than (in their eyes) let someone else pull the strings, and the best thing they feel they can do for their children is to instill the same sense of pride.
Now, there are plenty of people who don't "get" this, any more than Jim Rome "gets" soccer...but the important thing is not to understand it; the important thing is to understand that it exists, and to understand that to some, these things are important, no matter now much your own values may differ. To some folks, pride in your colors means more than money in the bank or the level of license held by a coach...and while that may not be logical, I'm not so sure it's a bad thing. One thing is for sure; no amount of bad-mouthing or saying that way of thinking is wrong will do anything to change it; if anything, it will only make folks dig in harder. So, once you accept that something is a part of the situation, it is much easier to find ways to work WITH it.
So...perhaps the BEST leadership for a club like SSC would be a person, or a group, that knows and understands the culture and the pride involved--Oldskoolpinewood has elaborated on this fairly well--and also understands the necessary steps and practices to increase the quality of experience for the players; someone who can move the club toward its goals while still allowing the stakeholders to keep a sense of identity and personal pride. Maybe even someone who understands that if it's that important to them to wear the blue they've grown up with, then small concessions can help gain support for big improvements, and make more overall progress than all-or-nothing, "my way or the highway" approaches. If I were in their shoes, that's what I would go for. Whether such a person exists, or whether SSC is passing up what many see as a good thing for a perfect thing that will never materialize...well, I guess we will just have to wait and see.
Just my own speculation, which should in no way be construed as an expert opinion, or anyone else's opinion, for that matter.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Gee. I thought this was a kids sport.
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All these eloquent posts and written facades dont change a thing. CESA will continue to send more teams to RIIIPL, continue to put more kids in front of college scouts, continue to grow a recreation program of appx. 2,000 kids, continue to grow an Academy Program with record numbers, continue to run a successful Top Soccer program, continue to send teams to Europe, continue to build team camps, continue to build the CAP program, continue to ..., and all without SSC.
I was a bit outspoken early in this thread because I wanted for you in Summerville the same thing we have here in the upstate. I tried to challenge you to look past any bias and see what was really being presented.
I would say "It's your loss," but if you have truly taken the time to evaluate it and dont want it, thats ok. No hard feelings. No passing judgement. You are the only ones who can decide what is right for your kids. CESA should quietly walk away and go back to business as usual on Monday morning.
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In regards to putting kids in front of college scouts. Cesa doesn't seem to place anymore kids in college programs than CUFC, Mt Pleasant Soccer, and Bridge FA. Anyone have statistics that would apply?
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I'm not knocking CESA or any other successful super-club program that's out there. In fact, CESA should be commended for their CAPS program, and their ability to get teams into CASL Shootout, Disney Showcase, etc.
But getting kids in front of college coaches generally starts somewhere around U-16. There are a lot of South Carolina kids out there who go on to play at the college level, who honed their skills, from U-8 to U-15, at various clubs throughout the state.
Congratulations to all of those clubs, and hats off to the talented trainers and coaches who are able to teach the necessary skills to children at such a young age. These are the men and women who build the foundation that enables the gifted (and hard-working) players to move up to the next level.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Only for the sake of accuracy regarding CESA and the tournaments its teams attend... of the three major tournaments mentioned so far in this discussion (WAGS, CASL Shootout and Disney Showcase) CESA only sends teams to Disney. It was a management decision made about three years ago.
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>>[Coach Chass] So...perhaps the BEST leadership for a club like SSC would be a person, or a group, that knows and understands the culture and the pride involved--Oldskoolpinewood has elaborated on this fairly well--and also understands the necessary steps and practices to increase the quality of experience for the players; someone who can move the club toward its goals while still allowing the stakeholders to keep a sense of identity and personal pride.<<
I've said it repeatedly on this thread...while I may not agree with the choice that the non-super-majority (the super-minority?) made, I respect the decision. The flip side of this is living with the consequences of your decision. Asking Tormey, Hyslop, and Fleming to do your bidding after you've rejected their terms seems -- well -- representative of the entitlement mentality that is so rife in our society today.
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Quote:
In regards to putting kids in front of college scouts. Cesa doesn't seem to place anymore kids in college programs than CUFC, Mt Pleasant Soccer, and Bridge FA. Anyone have statistics that would apply?
I don't have statistics for this year. However, for several years now it's not been very close -- CESA has placed many more kids in college programs and when you start looking at Division 1 programs it's even more pronounced (note: I limited to division 1 only because the sample set was easier to handle.) If I remember correctly it was more even on the boys side and not even close on the girls side. I published something examining all division 1 programs in the state a few years ago (predating CUFC, which is still relatively new in terms of making a program-level impact on this.)
Anecdotally, take a look at the rosters of the various division 1 programs in the state. CofC, Furman, Clemson, USC, PC, etc.
Also anecdotally, this is the reason that even with very strong coaches in next year's CUFC U18G group (both A and B teams) you still see some selected migration up to CESA.
I do think CUFC is not only second here, but is making great strides for a very young club.
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Quote:
Only for the sake of accuracy regarding CESA and the tournaments its teams attend... of the three major tournaments mentioned so far in this discussion (WAGS, CASL Shootout and Disney Showcase) CESA only sends teams to Disney. It was a management decision made about three years ago.
To further increase the accuracy here, note that my use of these tournaments was only as examples of why you might use branding and names to make it even easier to get into leading tournaments, i.e., I wasn't listing the tournaments that CESA attended, I was listing the tournaments that CESA can easily attend if they have that desire.
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let a handful not speak for all..Out of 120 something votes...81 had open minds and this was only the members that showed up..so I guess we would have to say that most don't care and second most had open minds and the smallest number 46 said no..
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let a handful not speak for all..Out of 120 something votes...81 had open minds and this was only the members that showed up..so I guess we would have to say that most don't care and second most had open minds and the smallest number 46 said no..
seems like most of that 46 are on this site.
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Good to know CESA could "easily attend" tournaments "if they had the desire." Are you kidding with that statement?
If CESA is a top club, with a CAP program that is suppose to put their female players in front of college coaches, why not attend a combination of WAGS, CASL, Las Vegas, Jefferson Cup, PDA and Houston on a consistent basis? These are where a large number of coaches appear yet CESA only attended Disney and, to no surprise due to not being used to the competition, didn't fare too well. Get out in the world and develop these players!
I guess the aspirations are to be just a top South Carolina club in a weak R3PL division and only put players in front of South Carolina colleges because that is what the facts are stating.
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you ever been on a casl field? worst fields in the country. casl is not like it use to be.
wags is a lot of money to go get rained out at.happened 2 years in a row.
while at disney there were a lot of coaches on the sideline watching them not far to well.
you said to "get out in the world and develop these players" where may i ask do you want them to go?
a top sc club in a weak RIII divsion is right.where is your club at? please let us know.i bet you are not willing to tell us.
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k70,
Why go to Vegas, Jersey and Houston? How many South Carolina girls would want to (or need to) go out of state? If you are THAT good of a player, that you would attract the attention of D1 college coaches in the northeast, south or west (at one of these tournaments), you have probably already caught the eye of coaches at USC, Clemson, Furman and College of Charleston. With the financial incentives to stay in-state, why would a young lady want to go 700 miles away to play?
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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What? Why go places with 150+ coaches? If you are that good in a state like South Carolina, you won't necessarily attract attention of D-I coaches. Remember, there are alot of better players then South Carolina's so-called best.
Wow, I guess I overestimated the aspirations of South Carolina players. They are much different then that of players from around the country but, then again, so is the level of play of team and players so your kind of South Carolina logic makes sense of why this state is where it is.
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Coach Chass, you seem to understand the situation better (or are able to put it into words better) than most. You did a great job explaining, but there are many who will just never “get it.”
Shibumi, let me ask this question: if you were interviewing someone for a particular job, and you tell them exactly what you want them to do for what you are going to pay them, and they tell you “sure, we'll come in and do that, but oh, by the way, we'll only do it if you change a few other things, like, ummm, your name, and maybe a couple other things,” how do you respond? “Yeah, sure, I’m paying you to do one thing, but since you are the expert, you can do whatever else you feel necessary.” ???
SSC was attempting to hire these two to manage the club, i.e., hire a new DOC, handle day-to-day activities, etc.. They were not hiring them to “brand” the club, or bring new exposure to the club. They wanted them to MANAGE the club. How exactly does changing names and colors of a club help them run more smoothly and efficiently?
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I don't even know what this whole thread is about...too long too read. But I think it's stupid not to attend the CASL tournament and whatever the name of that one in Atlanta used to be. CASL plays a lot at the SAS soccer park which is pretty nice (nearly comparable to Disney) but I'm sure they can't schedule every game there with the huge tournament they have. Who cares how good the fields are? CESA should be up there regardless because of the good competition and college recruiting. It's not the shortest drive but it's a good fit for the CESA club.
And with reference to the amount of college players each club places...I'm sure CESA has more overall but they also have for players in general. A ratio would be a better indicator of which club does the best.
"Quit ball watchin' son!"
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Shibumi, to put this another way, while you say “Asking Tormey, Hyslop, and Fleming to do your bidding after you've rejected their terms…” makes it sound like Tormey and Hyslop offered a service and gave their terms, and SSC said “We want your help, but not like you want to do it.”
I believe SSC approached them and asked for their help in managing the club, NOT “We want your help managing the club, and doing anything else you see fit.” JUST “We want your help managing the club.” And then the two of them come back with, “We’ll help manage the club, but only if you change your name and change your colors.”
Do those two sound anything alike? Why is it necessary for them to make name and color changes in order to manage the club? It’s not. They have their own reasons for wanting to change the other stuff, and maybe, just maybe, the SSC parents recognized that they would be getting more than they would be paying for (and I don’t necessarily mean that in a good way). I can definitely see where they might be suspicious. The board at SSC is telling the membership it’s all about managing the club, while the actions of the “new management” “says” something completely different.
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Marco Aurelio, I don’t believe the Hammer was slamming Spurrier and Bowden for not having “licenses,” but questioning what having a particular “license” means, and inferring that no one ever asks what kind of license THEY have (because it’s not important – like you say, “the old ball coach has a national championship under his belt...”)
There have been threads on this board about coach licensing plenty of times before. Being in possession of an “A” or “B” license does not guarantee that a person is or will be a great coach. And, not having that same license does not guarantee you won’t be a great coach. There are plenty of terrible A-licensed coaches, and also plenty of awesome coaches who have no license.
Hammer, I’m not sure what you mean by “simply on an awarded basis,” but if you will do a little research into the licensing process, you will realize that there is nothing “simple” about it. Anybody who has earned an “A” license has worked VERY hard to get to that level. Again, it’s not a guarantee, but something else to consider when evaluating a coach.
Just curious, what was the level license this coach had who left a bad taste in your mouth? Again, if you do your research, you should realize that people who were “former college players that have played at a high level” SHOULD be “grandfathered” in as an “E” level coach and possibly even a “D.” My teenage child would have no trouble getting an “E” license. “D” level is a LOT more work, but a fairly intelligent former college player should probably be able to take a verbal test to show his/her competence for gaining it without going through the entire course.
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>>[Belligerant] Shibumi, let me ask this question: if you were interviewing someone for a particular job, and you tell them exactly what you want them to do for what you are going to pay them, and they tell you “sure, we'll come in and do that, but oh, by the way, we'll only do it if you change a few other things, like, ummm, your name, and maybe a couple other things,” how do you respond? “Yeah, sure, I’m paying you to do one thing, but since you are the expert, you can do whatever else you feel necessary.” ???<<
First, what would I do? I'd ask the person being hired in why it is that they felt it was necessary to make those changes in order to accomplish what they were being hired to do. If they convinced me, I'd change the name. If they didn't convince me, I'd tell them so and wish them good luck and go on to my next candidate.
Now, what would I not do? I wouldn't tell them "no" and then sit around complaining that they wouldn't do the work anyway.
If you read what I've written, I have no issue with Summerville keeping their name, color, doing daddy-ball, or whatever -- I just have a problem with those getting on and complaining that people are going to "walk away" from SSC. The two parties couldn't agree on terms. Let's move on.
Clear enough?
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>>[Belligerant] Shibumi, to put this another way, while you say “Asking Tormey, Hyslop, and Fleming to do your bidding after you've rejected their terms…” makes it sound like Tormey and Hyslop offered a service and gave their terms, and SSC said “We want your help, but not like you want to do it.” <<
Okay...you're hitting on something now...because I perceive this to be the case.
>>I believe SSC approached them and asked for their help in managing the club, NOT “We want your help managing the club, and doing anything else you see fit.” JUST “We want your help managing the club.” And then the two of them come back with, “We’ll help manage the club, but only if you change your name and change your colors.”<<
Okay...since I agree that I perceive that this is also what occurred, I'm getting confused... More on this in the next paragraph.
>>Do those two sound anything alike?<<
Why yes, they do. The only difference I can see is that in the first case you're hypothesizing that SSC came in and foresaw what the price would be and offered (or did not) offer it -- and in the second case SSC came in and said what they wanted and Tormey/Hyslop named a price that the board found acceptable but that a super-minority did not.
I don't think anyone acted in bad faith; I just think that SSC wanted certain services, Tormey/Hyslop named a price (I'm including not just money but name/color/bylaw/etc. changes), and a super-minority decided the price wasn't acceptable. So far, everyone is doing okay.
The only problem I had was the whining by people who didn't vote for it now complaining that Tormey/Hyslop wouldn't do their bidding.
>>Why is it necessary for them to make name and color changes in order to manage the club? It’s not. They have their own reasons for wanting to change the other stuff, and maybe, just maybe, the SSC parents recognized that they would be getting more than they would be paying for (and I don’t necessarily mean that in a good way). I can definitely see where they might be suspicious.<<
Belligerant -- saying "it's not" is not exactly the height of reasoning. I've speculated why it is that they might have wanted this -- those things appear to me to be reasonable (note: not that others should agree with them -- just that they are a rational position.) You're stating that basically the price is too high. I accept the fact that SSC might value the name and color over the services it wanted. In my mind it wouldn't be a rational decision; but even if people chose colors over their children getting the best services I can at least understand it as an emotional decision.
But it's time for SSC to "man-up" and deal with the consequences of its decision rather than whining that the people whose terms you rejected won't do what you want.
>>The board at SSC is telling the membership it’s all about managing the club, while the actions of the “new management” “says” something completely different. <<
Actually, the more I hear about this the more I wonder if the board was actually operating in good faith. I wonder if the board wasn't talking out of both sides of its mouth. But I don't have any evidence of that -- I just wonder -- given what I read.
Absence any evidence, I here's what I think. SSC wanted help and asked Tormey/Hyslop to provide a service. Tormey/Hyslop partially named as a price the changing of the name and colors and more importantly decided to operate it as a professional club (no daddy-ball). A super-minority rejected it.
That's all okay. My point since the beginning of this is that SSC just needs to stop whining about people not helping them and live with the consequences of their decision, i.e., help themselves and don't expect those whose terms they rejected to continue to help.
Look -- if Fleming/Hyslop/Tormey decide to continue to help -- I'm even fine with that. They'll make a decision based on their own reasons. I just find it childish to expect them to work for terms with which they didn't agree.
Belligerant -- what am I missing?
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Shibumi, if you’re saying that “The only problem I had was the whining by people who didn't vote for it now complaining that Tormey/Hyslop wouldn't do their bidding,” then I don’t think we disagree.
But, I don’t see all that whining by SSC people that you mention. I see a lot of people slamming the SSC membership for voting one way or the other, I see a lot of people heralding the mighty CESA and calling the SSC voters lots of names, I see a lot of people asking why we (the lowcountry) can’t all just get along, but I don’t see a bunch of whining.
Last edited by Belligerent; 06/02/08 03:29 AM.
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Quote:
. . . First, what would I do? I'd ask the person being hired in why it is that they felt it was necessary to make those changes in order to accomplish what they were being hired to do. If they convinced me, I'd change the name. If they didn't convince me, I'd tell them so and wish them good luck and go on to my next candidate.
Now, what would I not do? I wouldn't tell them "no" and then sit around complaining that they wouldn't do the work anyway.
If you read what I've written, I have no issue with Summerville keeping their name, color, doing daddy-ball, or whatever -- I just have a problem with those getting on and complaining that people are going to "walk away" from SSC. The two parties couldn't agree on terms. Let's move on.
Clear enough?
Hyslop was asked why it was necessary to change the name and colors to implement "the CESA model." No answer was given.
Hyslop was also asked why the vote on amending the SSC Constitution couldn't come 1 year or even 6 months into the 3 year management contract. No answer was given.
The ONLY explanation given at the membership meeting was offered by a SSC board member who speculated that perhaps it would cause problems for Hyslop and Tormey should a Summerville team that they "managed" defeat a CESA team unless that Summerville team was branded CESA and wearing CESA colors. I realize that at the challenge & classic levels that might seem unlikely to happen anytime soon. Clearly though there are academy and rec teams in SSC that could and would defeat similarly situated CESA teams on a regular basis. And although the SSC Board member presented this argument as speculation I am not so sure that it wasn't the proverbial nail hitting head.
As I posted earlier, there appeared to be 2/3 support for the changes once the proposal was changed from CESA-Charleston to CESA-Summerville. Hyslop essentially talked a handful of people out of supporting them - myself included. Any question he did not want to answer, he would refer to as "a loaded question" and then talk for 5 minutes or so about the CESA training model without answering the question. I am not kidding when I suggested that the amendments very likely would have passed if Hyslop had stayed in Greenville and let Fleming represent him at the meeting.
Finally, I am pretty confident there was not a person in the room who voted against the amendments because they favored untrained parent volunteer coaches ("daddy-ball") over paid professionals. That's absurd. If there were any "unspoken agendas" in the room, I would suggest one possibility: There are still people (a minority to be sure) in SSC who regret that the once-promising SSC - Bridge F.A. relationship has soured to the degree that it has. There are certainly parents whose younger kids play for SSC and older kids play for Bridge. Brisson, Birchwood, Phillips, and Hoerner definitely still have their fans in Summerville. They are all consummate professionals and I suspect very few CESA coaches can truly be considered to be significantly superior "on the pitch" coaches. There may have been some administrative and training issues during some of these folks' tenures at SSC and Bridge but they are all top-notch professionals at match time. I also suspect that Bridge F.A. had a LOT to do with Hyslop and Tormey wanting to establish a beachhead in the Lowcountry through SSC. Like him or not, Clark Brisson has built in B.F.A. the closest thing to a rival that CESA has. And if Hyslop and Tormey do choose not to manage SSC thereby "retreating" to the upstate, Bridge F.A. is the immediate beneficiary of such a decision.
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Again, from the outside looking in, it comes down to a question (which I can't answer) of whether SSC approached Hyslop and Tormey in the capacity of having proven business professionals take on the job of guiding and managing Summerville Soccer Club and helping them adopt the "CESA model," or whether the intent was for SSC to actually become a part (annex? territory? colony?) of CESA and be controlled by CESA. There is a pretty large difference between these options, and there seems to be a good deal of confusion about which of these scenarios was supposed to happen. I get the sense that many of the SSC folks were expecting Option A, while the CESA folks were expecting Option B, which would explain the uniform change and "rebranding."
Something tells me when cultures out on the fringes started trading with the East India Trading Company on the promise of heretofore unseen goods, services, and quality of life, they really didn't think they were volunteering to become a part of the British Empire either, but a few trading posts and platoons of soldiers later, they were wondering exactly how they suddenly came under British rule of law. As history tells it, the benevolent practice of "bringing light into the dark places of the world" tended to work out more to the benefit of the light-bringers than it did for the newly enlightened.
Now, I'm not drawing a direct comparison between the two entities...I'm just saying it's understandable if people think they have reason to get straight answers before handing over control to folks who are known for a "successful business model." Once a bit of control is given up, it opens a door for more, so I think people are wise to ask for answers to ALL of their questions before handing over the keys to the kingdom.
I've got good news and bad news...
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I guess the question now is...Now what? It was voted down so what's next for SSC? Or should I say who's next
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I don't even know what this whole thread is about...too long too read. But I think it's stupid not to attend the CASL tournament and whatever the name of that one in Atlanta used to be. CASL plays a lot at the SAS soccer park which is pretty nice (nearly comparable to Disney) but I'm sure they can't schedule every game there with the huge tournament they have. Who cares how good the fields are? CESA should be up there regardless because of the good competition and college recruiting. It's not the shortest drive but it's a good fit for the CESA club.
And with reference to the amount of college players each club places...I'm sure CESA has more overall but they also have for players in general. A ratio would be a better indicator of which club does the best.
you ever been on one of those cow pastures at casl.maybe you would care about how good they are then.casl has their own fields and do not play on sas as much as you think.
im sure someone on this board is working on that cesa ratio now.
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shibooboo, you misspelled my name – but, don’t be disheartened - you are forgiven.  oldskool, that must have been a deafening silence when Hyslop was asked about the need for changing name and colors – hate I had to miss it.  chass, like I mentioned before, you seem to understand this whole thing much more than most, and I am even learning some history, to boot! Indians from the East, Empirical Britains, trading post offices, platoons of soldiers, cultures, fringes, light-bringers…geez, my head is swimming…  seriously, though, I have to believe that there was never any intent for CESA to somehow take over SSC. As more than one person has mentioned, it seems like there is something in the SCYSA bylaws that would disallow that from happening - not to say that Hyslop and Tormey don’t salivate at the thought, though… 
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Thought this to be significant to the spirit of this thread, with a nod to a fellow poster...
"Let it be your constant method to look into the design of people's actions, and see what they would be at, as often as it is practicable; and to make this custom the more significant, practice it first upon yourself."
- Marcus Aurelius
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Sorry, Belligerent, sometimes my teacher-persona hijacks my soccer-coach typing fingers!
I've got good news and bad news...
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Quote:
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I don't even know what this whole thread is about...too long too read. But I think it's stupid not to attend the CASL tournament and whatever the name of that one in Atlanta used to be. CASL plays a lot at the SAS soccer park which is pretty nice (nearly comparable to Disney) but I'm sure they can't schedule every game there with the huge tournament they have. Who cares how good the fields are? CESA should be up there regardless because of the good competition and college recruiting. It's not the shortest drive but it's a good fit for the CESA club.
And with reference to the amount of college players each club places...I'm sure CESA has more overall but they also have for players in general. A ratio would be a better indicator of which club does the best.
you ever been on one of those cow pastures at casl.maybe you would care about how good they are then.casl has their own fields and do not play on sas as much as you think.
im sure someone on this board is working on that cesa ratio now.
So, we should pull our teams out of the Southern Regionals to be played in a few weeks at the WRAL fields to protect our kids from the cow pastures?
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...I'm just saying it's understandable if people think they have reason to get straight answers before handing over control to folks who are known for a "successful business model." Once a bit of control is given up, it opens a door for more, so I think people are wise to ask for answers to ALL of their questions before handing over the keys to the kingdom.
I agree, and it is unfortunate if a reluctance (whether real or perceived) by CESA management to answer the questions and concerns of the voting members of SSC may have caused a potential good for the players of SSC to fail to pass. However, my experience says SSC should get the answers up front.
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Finally -- an ephiphany...
This has been great...and I mean that sincerely. I appreciate so many people spending so much time -- I've actually learned a lot.
I've poked and prodded to try to understand the situation; because to me it's been a no-brainer -- but the reason is that I was blinded by only looking at it from the standpoint of "what's best for SSC as a stand-alone club." Now I think I finally get it. It's not about names and colors or anything else that people threw up in a reflexive attempt to try to obsfucate the situation; it's about a relatively small group of very passionate people making a rational decision that they liked SSC being an alliance member club and Bridge being the club to which their children "graduate." It was a vote for the status quo.
I sincerely hope it works out for everyone concerned. Good luck...
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I tend to agree with your statement..
Last edited by coldhardtruth; 06/02/08 11:43 AM.
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>>[DeltaDog] So, we should pull our teams out of the Southern Regionals to be played in a few weeks at the WRAL fields to protect our kids from the cow pastures? <<
You do understand the difference between a monopoly (where you play for regional championships is determined by a single body -- there are no alternatives if you wish to compete) and an open market (Disney is ranked higher than CASL Shootout and has what is in effect a superset of coaches attending), right?
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cht: I in no way mean it as a slam on anyone. It's just that a lot of the arguments being made didn't make sense. Trading out what's best for your children in the name of names and colors would be dumb. And since I could construct (and did on this message board) a logical argument for renaming and rebranding, I didn't understand how intelligent and reasonable people could be coming to such a different conclusion.
It was yesterday's posts that helped me understand it. I'm not saying that I agree or disagree with the assessment these parents are making; I'm not close enough to understand the relative tradeoffs of the decision to terminate the alliance with Bridge. But at least now I can understand a rational basis for the decision -- which honestly was my goal here.
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This has been an interesting thread. It seems pretty clear that CESA/Tormey/Hyslop had a set of conditions precedent to their taking on the role of managing SSC. Like them or not, think they were "necessary" or not, they were disclosed. The vote failed.
I predict that the issue will be re-raised and passed.
(Sorry, but this is just funny: Like him or not, Clark Brisson has built in B.F.A. the closest thing to a rival that CESA has)
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HappyDaddy: I swear that I wrote responses to the same statement you quoted three times and deleted each because I thought that it wasn't on point. My reaction was the same as yours.
But I do understand the perspective of the poster. CUFC has focused on offering services across all ages and particularly genders. Bridge has offered some great opportunities for a couple of ages and primarily one gender. If you're lucky enough to be in those ages and genders, then it might appear that Bridge is "the closest thing to a rival that CESA has."
However, from the amazing growth in the select ranks (39 teams!) to the number of teams placed into the final 4, CUFC has in its short lifetime eclipsed Bridge in terms of a viable "CESA rival" when taking into account both genders and all age groups.
P.S. I think you're probably right that it will be re-raised and passed. But at this point I've got to admit that I agree with "pitchparent" -- I'd rather see them walk and SSC live with the consequences. It's a childish view and not one of which I'm proud -- because it's punishing the majority of players and parents for what (from what I can tell) is a combination of a passionate few people who want the old Bridge alliance back and what seems to be from 100+ miles away the worst corporate governance since Enron.
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Quote:
>>[DeltaDog] So, we should pull our teams out of the Southern Regionals to be played in a few weeks at the WRAL fields to protect our kids from the cow pastures? <<
You do understand the difference between a monopoly (where you play for regional championships is determined by a single body -- there are no alternatives if you wish to compete) and an open market (Disney is ranked higher than CASL Shootout and has what is in effect a superset of coaches attending), right?
I understand that if my kid twists an ankle in the parking lot at Disney before the first game, she will have missed every major recruiting tournament of the year.
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Fascinating. Do you really believe a single tournament is the method by which college coaches decide to recruit a player? Or is a single tournament yet another recruiting opportunity -- as are CAP games, RIIIPL-East games, the region championships -- heck, even practices that these coaches attend if they're interested in a player. And that doesn't even begin to include ODP (if your kid is serious about higher level play.)
One division 1 coach walked up to me and told me about a kid as a sophomore that they'd been watching since eighth grade. I asked if this was normal; I was told that these folks track kids over a period of years (not just months.)I'm pretty sure that missing a single Disney tournament with a sprained ankle wouldn't have significantly diminished the interest.
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Fascinating. Do you really believe a single tournament is the method by which college coaches decide to recruit a player? Or is a single tournament yet another recruiting opportunity -- as are CAP games, RIIIPL-East games, the region championships -- heck, even practices that these coaches attend if they're interested in a player. And that doesn't even begin to include ODP (if your kid is serious about higher level play.)
One division 1 coach walked up to me when my kid was a sophomore and told me they'd been watching her since she was in eighth grade. I'm pretty sure that missing a single Disney tournament (out of the many that she's attended) with a sprained ankle wouldn't have significantly diminished the interest.
trying to keep this relative to the thread (perhaps you can start another thread where we can further discuss CESA tournament selection, CAP, etc.)... If the proposed "branding" is justified to enhance SSC's opportunities to be accepted into tournaments they couldn't previously get into, and the group proposing the "branding" restricts its own teams to only one major tournament, then shouldn't SSC deserve an answer to why the "branding" is so important?
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DeltaDog: What a great idea! I'd love to hear more of your theory that a player isn't going to get recruited because they miss a tournament. It seems to me that you set up a false paradox. A club can use its "branding", contacts, or whatever to be able to get invited into tournaments without deciding to attend those tournaments. The decision of CESA to attend Disney as its sole "prestige" tournament doesn't mean that SSC wouldn't want to be able to attend one or more equal or lesser "prestige" tournaments. The question isn't how many tournaments CESA decides to attend (the direction you took this in); instead, it's how many tournaments you can gain entrance into. Now -- it's a valid argument to debate whether and how this would extend to another club -- but it just seems silly to ignore the difference between the tournaments a club can get admission to versus the tournaments a club actually attends. But with all of this said, who cares? The people who voted to reject this deal can use Bridge as its mechanism to get into these prestige tournaments as soon as their child is good enough to abandon SSC, right? (I'm not being sarcastic -- I'm just saying that we can stick with this rationale and it makes sense.)
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You're beginning to scratch the surface of an issue that many don't get.
In my experience, SSC (and most low country clubs for that matter) is a collection of teams individually governed by the respective group of parents. Keeping it relative to the tournament discussion, parents want to decide what tournaments they want their child's team to attend, not follow the direction of the club.
Call it branding, club unity or whatever you want to call it, but in the low country parents appear to think that players are members of teams, not members of the club. A difference that exists with other clubs is players are members of the club first, team second.
This is a big issue that is and will be difficult to change.
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Bear: Sincere question: does Bridge operate in the "unified club model" or as a "collection of teams"? If the former, then doesn't Bridge represent a clear alternative that will allow parental choice and allow SSC to continue to operate in its current mode?
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Shibumi,
I haven't been deeply involved with Bridge for a couple of years now. However, while I was still involved, we were attempting to move to a club centric mode. In the end though, it was still team centric. It may have changed, but I doubt it, because it is do deeply rooted.
This team centric environment adds a dynamic to the parental choice, i.e. if you leave what will that do to "our" team. That brings up the "loyalty" discussion that has been talked about on the message board.
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Quote:
The question isn't how many tournaments CESA decides to attend (the direction you took this in); instead, it's how many tournaments you can gain entrance into.
Now -- it's a valid argument to debate whether and how this would extend to another club -- but it just seems silly to ignore the difference between the tournaments a club can get admission to versus the tournaments a club actually attends.
Absolutely correct. There is a huge difference between opportunity and actuality.
So, in this case, when being managed by the folks whose name creates these opportunites also means being managed by the same folks who choose not to participate in them...
...explain to me again how this translates into an advantage to the players?
Forgive me, honored Shibumi-san...my understanding is flawed.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Coach Chass,
I wouldn't be too concerned about wasting the parents' time and money to go to Orlando, Vegas or Houston. Take the teams to a tournament in Charlotte. The Summerville girls seem to have a successful pipeline to Wingate. That will satisfy your D2 players. Your D1 candidates can get seen in-state by USC, Clemson, Furman, C of C, Upstate, Winthrop, Coastal, etc.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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The Summerville girls seem to have a successful pipeline to Wingate.
That's because they go to camp at Wingate.
"I'm Forever Blowing Bubbles"
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Hurst, I think you're right...there was just much being made about having the opportunity to do so.
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Hammer,
Right on! No doubt the best way for a youth soccer player to make an impression on a college coach! Much better than rolling the dice at Vegas. Pick a school you are interested in and attend the camp!
Kudos to the S'ville girls who take the initiative.
(By the way, nice piece on the Summerville Boys Basketball team on ESPN today.)
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Quote:
cht: I in no way mean it as a slam on anyone. It's just that a lot of the arguments being made didn't make sense. Trading out what's best for your children in the name of names and colors would be dumb. And since I could construct (and did on this message board) a logical argument for renaming and rebranding, I didn't understand how intelligent and reasonable people could be coming to such a different conclusion.
I guess that would depend on exactly what parents think is "best" for their children, and what lesson they are trying to teach them. Just because you don't understand the thinking behind something, that doesn't necessarily make it "dumb."
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth. " --Marcus Aurelius
(my thanks to the former Jim Morrison for reminding me of M.A.--he's a wealth of wisdom!)
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The decision of CESA to attend Disney as its sole "prestige" tournament doesn't mean that SSC wouldn't want to be able to attend one or more equal or lesser "prestige" tournaments.
Shibumi... Would any of SSC's "want to" on any level have been heard after a vote of "yes"? Apparently, a significant portion of those voting weren't so sure. (Thanks for the link, I'll continue the general tournament/recruiting discussion there.)
Hurst... I admire your efforts to keep the players in state, and agree that SC colleges can provide a variety of excellent opportunities to play at the next level. However, Miss Sheets is still headed to West Point, Miss Maxwell is still headed to Ohio State and after next year Miss Tate will be headed to play for the current national champions at USC. Three schools located not only outside of SC, but outside of Region III entirely.
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DeltaDog,
I'll give you Ashleigh Sheets. From what I understand, initial contact with Army was made as a result of attending Disney. (She was on her way to join two former FM teammates at Clemson prior to the coaching change).
How did Maxwell and Tate garner the attention of OSU and the "other SC"?
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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As I understand it USC first saw Tate at the national ODP training camp in California. USC decided to expand its recruiting area and saw her again at this past Disney.
I'm not familiar with the evolution of Miss Maxwell's recruitment.
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Welcome to Low Country Soccer where it's more important what color you wear and whom your ride with to practice than the development of your childs soccer. Where politics rule and parents can control the game.
We have plenty of soccer professionals and great players in the Low Country to be successful without CESA. What we don't have is a parental or community attitude to what is best for the soccer players. We continue to dilute our teams with too many clubs. We educate our soccer players the same way we educate schoolastically, to the lowest common denominator. Every kid is not an honors student and every kid is not an elite soccer player and until the parents realize this and the politicians realize this, we will continue to water down Honors education and Elite soccer programs. The Low Country as a whole has enough players and students to fill class rooms and pitches with players and students that qualify for a certain class or team. If we don't unifie the effort we continue to have players and students left behind at the highest and the weakest levels of both.
The results in our SAT testing and tournaments over the past 10 years should be a testament to that!!!!
ROSS!!! For no reason!
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Can someone tell me how their fields are similar to a cow pasture? How do they compare to MESA? All CESA teams used to play on them and it wasn't a big deal. I certainly don't think the new wave of talent at CESA is "too good" for these fields. Disney definately should be the first priority but going to one tournament is stupid.
"Quit ball watchin' son!"
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Shidoobie, I was actually beginning to think you were being “sincere” about having an ephiphany [sic] regarding what was going on at SSC, but then you made the comment "It was a vote for the status quo” and I realized that either you really weren’t sincere and didn’t have one, or you just refuse to accept any idea other than your own as being one “for the kids,” blinding reflexive attempts at obsfucation [sic] aside.
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We couldn't find the MESA complex up there a couple of years ago. Did they ever get it finished? Why not call it CESA?
When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.
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Cause it was MESA before CESA even existed...and as we know from this thread CESA can't just take over anything they want.
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I don't even know what this whole thread is about...too long too read. But I think it's stupid not to attend the CASL tournament and whatever the name of that one in Atlanta used to be. CASL plays a lot at the SAS soccer park which is pretty nice (nearly comparable to Disney) but I'm sure they can't schedule every game there with the huge tournament they have. Who cares how good the fields are? CESA should be up there regardless because of the good competition and college recruiting. It's not the shortest drive but it's a good fit for the CESA club.
And with reference to the amount of college players each club places...I'm sure CESA has more overall but they also have for players in general. A ratio would be a better indicator of which club does the best.
you ever been on one of those cow pastures at casl.maybe you would care about how good they are then.casl has their own fields and do not play on sas as much as you think.
im sure someone on this board is working on that cesa ratio now.
So, we should pull our teams out of the Southern Regionals to be played in a few weeks at the WRAL fields to protect our kids from the cow pastures?
regionals is a once a year thing. there are many tournys during the year as good as casl to attend.
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>>[DeltaDog] So, we should pull our teams out of the Southern Regionals to be played in a few weeks at the WRAL fields to protect our kids from the cow pastures? <<
You do understand the difference between a monopoly (where you play for regional championships is determined by a single body -- there are no alternatives if you wish to compete) and an open market (Disney is ranked higher than CASL Shootout and has what is in effect a superset of coaches attending), right?
I understand that if my kid twists an ankle in the parking lot at Disney before the first game, she will have missed every major recruiting tournament of the year.
if your kid did that then you need to get him/her some new shoes.
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Coach Chass,
I wouldn't be too concerned about wasting the parents' time and money to go to Orlando, Vegas or Houston. Take the teams to a tournament in Charlotte. The Summerville girls seem to have a successful pipeline to Wingate. That will satisfy your D2 players. Your D1 candidates can get seen in-state by USC, Clemson, Furman, C of C, Upstate, Winthrop, Coastal, etc.
if i remember right,your kids team goes to the orange classic.why are you concerning yourself with going that far if you can be seen localy?
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Hammer,
Right on! No doubt the best way for a youth soccer player to make an impression on a college coach! Much better than rolling the dice at Vegas. Pick a school you are interested in and attend the camp!
Kudos to the S'ville girls who take the initiative.
(By the way, nice piece on the Summerville Boys Basketball team on ESPN today.)
seems if you attend a camp to try and get into college you are putting you are rolling the dice there also.they see they do not want you.
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it is funny to see how many come out of the wood work to trash cesa.i know they have dominated the state for a few years now but it is truly amazing how much dislike there is for them.must tick some of you off to not be able to catch up.
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it is funny to see how many come out of the wood work to trash cesa.
I think you're imagining things.
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it is funny to see how many come out of the wood work to trash cesa.
I think you're imagining things.
what am i imagining there happy daddy.are you saying people do not trash cesa? i can not wait for your answer but i have to head for greenville.i will enjoy reading your reply when i get home tonight.
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Marcus,
There's not too many people here trashing CESA. I'm talking about ways that kids can get seen without going to Vegas and Houston. I think you and I had this conversation before and I'm pretty sure you agreed with me that once you identified a school you would like to attend, it would be a pretty good idea to attend their soccer camp in order to see if the coach was interested.
I guess since you have recently "doubled your investment" in the club, you suddenly have a desire to quickly become defensive.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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All I'm saying is that I haven't seen it in this thread particularly. I don't consider comments that take issue with some of the apparent conditions that were placed on CESA/Tormey/Hyslop's involvement with SSC to be "trashing."
I do find amusing your presumption of envy on the part of people who occasionally are critical of CESA. That may sometimes be the case, but certainly not always.
I think the real challenge is for CESA supporters to keep an open mind and not be so hyper-defensive when a criticism is made. Likewise, I think people (I'm admittedly one of them) who have "issues" with some things CESA does need to be careful to be precise and not engage in mindless "trashing." I read the Georgia forum from time to time and am disgusted by it. I don't want this place to be like that.
Cheers.
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Quote:
All I'm saying is that I haven't seen it in this thread particularly. I don't consider comments that take issue with some of the apparent conditions that were placed on CESA/Tormey/Hyslop's involvement with SSC to be "trashing."
I do find amusing your presumption of envy on the part of people who occasionally are critical of CESA. That may sometimes be the case, but certainly not always.
I think the real challenge is for CESA supporters to keep an open mind and not be so hyper-defensive when a criticism is made. Likewise, I think people (I'm admittedly one of them) who have "issues" with some things CESA does need to be careful to be precise and not engage in mindless "trashing." I read the Georgia forum from time to time and am disgusted by it. I don't want this place to be like that.
Cheers.
is the GA forum as bad as FLA? gets pretty ugly over there.
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goal
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is the GA forum as bad as FLA? gets pretty ugly over there.
The tone is about the same. I look at the Florida forum once in a while during R3PL season, just to see what's being said about our competition. They and the Georgians have perfected the "art" of mindless trashing of other clubs. It's incredibly juvenile stuff. The maturity quotient on scsoccer.com is miles ahead - even considering the missives from our high-schoolers during that season.
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Hey! I resemble that remark! Some of us ex-high-schoolers (I use ex instead of former, because I was forced out - it was not by my own choice) can be JUST as immature as the current ones.
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no post from me today.
im gone fishing!!!.
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hat-trick
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Yeah..I think the thread has seen it's better days..Since CESA is out..what does the future hold for SSC? Or I guess a better question is who will be watching over the herd?
I guess they can run things themselves and put that money back in the pot for now..
Last edited by coldhardtruth; 06/03/08 12:46 PM.
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Wow! Now, that's a heckuva rumor to start..."SSC board spends all their money on pot!" You heard it here first.
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hat-trick
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Good one!! I think I'll go fishing too.
Last edited by coldhardtruth; 06/03/08 03:20 PM.
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Hat-Trick
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Marcus... can you give us a link to the Florida forum???
Belligerent....too funny
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Marcus... can you give us a link to the Florida forum???
Belligerent....too funny
it is called something like talking soccer forum.and you pick which region you want and state.
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