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Any info on the games posts here..
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U15 Girls: CUFC 93 Elite 2-1 CESA 93 Challenge (OT)
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CESA 7 Bridge 1
CESA and CUFC in the finals
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What time is the U-15 Girls final on Sunday?
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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CESA 92 Girls 2 CUFC 0
BFA 92 Girls 2 CFC 0
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91 girls
COAST FA 0 CESA 1
CFC 4 CUFC 2
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CUFC U-17 Elite Boys 5-1 over DISA
CESA Premier 3-2 over CUFC Challenge
Final CUFC v. CESA
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CUFC u-15 Elite Boys 3-1 over CSSC 93 Elite
Props to the CUFC boys.....played good football and finished their chances.
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Anyone know about the CESA 15 Boys Premier/Challenge game??
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Boys 15 CESA CUFC Girls CESA CUFC
Boys 16 CESA BFA Girls CESA BFA
Boys 17 CESA CUFC Girls CESA CFC
Boys 18 CESA DSC Girls CESA CUFC
Looks alot like last year's finals..Congratulations to the CFC 17 girls for making the finals...Good job!!
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Girls U16 BFA 1 CESA 0
They won in the first OT
Back to Back Championships..Good Job!!
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word is u17 finals
CUFC 5 CESA 0
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That's it. U-17 Boys CUFC 5 CESA 0.
Congrats to these boys on a great season. Premier League champs and State Cup winners. Well done.
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Summary… Champs… Congrats
U15 Girls CESA
U16 Girls Bridge FA
U17 Girls CESA
U18 Girls CESA
U15 Boys CESA
U16 Boys CESA
U17 Boys CUFC
U18 Boys DSC
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I'm sorry but after seeing the results of today's state cup finals, I have to say how disappointed I am in CUFC. This is now the third fall state cup since the merger of CSC and NECSA, and they brought home ONE state cup?
The first year CESA was in existence, they won all eight of the fall state cups. Admittedly, they were lucky to win a couple of those that first year. However, they have won five or six of the eight fall titles in each of the three years since then.
Has CUFC ever won more than two of the eight fall titles in any of the last three years? I keep hearing how great this club is and I hear of thier top-notch directors and coaching staff, but outside of the 91 boys, where are the results? How long does it take? What am I missing?
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what you're missing might depend on what your expectations are. what are they?
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My expectations are simple. If you have this great club with a large pool of players from which to select your top level teams, and you have all of these A and B license coaches who are supposed to be so good; then win more state cups.
I guess I am missing the reason why they don't win more. What is the reason? If I'm not mistaken, CUFC is in a larger metropolitan area than CESA. CUFC has had 3 years to do what CESA has done every year with regards to winning state cup titles, and they haven't done it once or even come close. What is the reason for it?
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The merger of Columbia and NECSA does not mean instant titles..It does make the player pool larger and given time and development..we should see results BUT I think it is unfair to compare CUFC to CESA..Because the CESA merger was from two of the strongest clubs in the state..that being GFC and St.Giles and secondly CESA is run differently than any other club in the state..Is your child's team better now than before the merger? Is your child getting better training than before the merger? These are the questions you should be asking yourself..If not..then you should be talking to the top notch directors about your expectations..
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How many kids travel from Columbia area to play for CESA..I know of at least seven or eight kids that travel from the lowcountry..CESA attracts players from all over the state and probably from N Carolina and Georgia because of their location..And I would guess that most making the trip there are pretty good at what they do..It's going to take time to even the playing field..I know the Columbia area is large but losing players to CESA will have an effect on the player pool
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So how much time shoul it take?
I am reading the CUFC mission statement and vision statement on their website. it says "we will be the most recognized state youth soccer organization of choice fostering competition, creating opportunities and encouraging participation at every level of play." If I were interested in competing at regionals and I am not a 91 boy, how long do I have to wait before the most recognizable club in the state offers me that opportunity?
It is stated that the objective of the board of directors and the coaching staff is to "constantly improve your club". What have they done in the last three years to improve the club for the player who would like to win the state cup and go to regionals? How long will it take before the club improves to the level of success in this area that CESA achieves every year?
I'm sorry for comparing CUFC to CESA, but I'm not the only one. I am of the school of thought that if I were paying money to a club and I saw another club providing the service that I want at a more frequent and consistent rate, I would ask questions. There are people in this forum that seem to know a whole lot about CUFC and CESA, so I thought I would throw it out there and ask.
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I guess you could always make that trip upstate but that's not the answer you are looking for..Soccer is taught throughout the state..No one should have to make that trip.Harry, You are just going to get people's opinions on this site..No sure answers..I would talk to those within your club about your concerns..Five out of eight tiles is pretty impressive and the three CESA did not win..They finished second..They are definitely the benchmark for the state
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My reading of your other posts suggests that you are a CESA guy. CESA had a great year in State Cup. Congratulations. CUFC had some disappointments. It happens. With a few exceptions, most of the games were very competitive, and on a different day might well have had a different result.
I'm a CUFC guy. There are things about our club I would change if I was in charge. There are certainly things about CESA that I don't like (some I've talked about here, and others that I haven't, and won't). At the end of the day, we all know that we're chasing CESA when it comes to state cup wins. That's fine. We'll do things our way, you do things your way. As long as the kids are having fun and have the chance to improve to the best of their ability, it's all good.
BTW - there's a name for posters like you - "concern troll."
My son's on the CUFC U-17 Boys - I'm happy tonight and your "concern" can't change that!
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I'm not trying to change the fact that you're happy tonight. I'm also not "concerned", and never said that I was. I am disappointed in the number of state cup titles, and to be honest, the number of finals that CUFC was in. If I am not mistaken, they were in four of the eight finals and didn't have a team in the U-18 final four.
I'm not at all "concerned" about this. I just would like to hear an explaination. I'm impressed by your son's team and their success. One poster offered a possible explaination of CESA's success as having to do with players leaving Columbia and the lowcountry to come to CESA. Your son's team has succeeded despite players leaving the team to play elsewhere. So there must be another reason for the continued success of CESA and the relative low number of titles for CUFC. I would just like to know what it is.
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Congrats to the CUFC Elite 91 team for putting on an impressive display against a very talented CESA Premier 91 team today! Back to back Premier League East wins, runner up in an outstanding 2007 final vs. CESA, and a solid win today for a team which won the title as U13's was obviously an exciting moment.
Congratulations for to both teams for bringing outstanding competition to SC soccer!
Imagine. Believe. Achieve.
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Quote:
I would just like to know what it is.
No, you have no interest at all in it. You're just being an ass. Your posts are utterly transparent equivalents of "neener, neener, neener, we're better than you!" Grow the hell up. Or at least pretend to have a modicum of class.
Nighty Night.
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Manchester
Thanks (on behalf of my son!) Same to you and yours. You guys (CESA U-16) are very impressive. Isn't it fun when a team just clicks. See you on the trail.
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HappyDaddy,
You are so right about watching a team that "just clicks". When it happens, particularly against outstanding opponents, you really do appreciate why soccer is called the beautiful game.
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If I am not mistaken, they were in four of the eight finals and didn't have a team in the U-18 final four.
You are mistaken CUFC U18 Girls played CESA U18 Premier at 2:30 (CESA 3 CUFC 0)....and just to mention it (not that it matters) there are 2 Columbia players on the CESA U-18 team.
To answer your question as to why CUFC did not and has not had more state champion teams...that is simple! The CUFC teams simply did not do what it took to win the game(s). That's it plain and simple! it certainly isn't because they are not great athletes, or well trained, or that there is some "flaw" in the CUFC (or any other club) system.
Now on to the HS Season! 
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing."
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Call it Highlander syndrome...there can be only one. Or at least, one per level/gender/age group per year.
You can have two absolutely fantastic teams, evenly matched, evenly skilled, evenly coached, evenly developed, evenly conditioned...regardless, due to fate, chance, momentary distraction, injury, unforeseen circumstance, intangible variables, or just plain inescapable math, one of them will NOT come home as champions. Not sure that constitutes cause to question the system that fields that team.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Girls U16 BFA 1 CESA 0
They won in the first OT
Back to Back Championships..Good Job!!
Any truth to the rumor BFA may not apply to play Premier next year??
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Quote:
Quote:
I would just like to know what it is.
No, you have no interest at all in it. You're just being an ass. Your posts are utterly transparent equivalents of "neener, neener, neener, we're better than you!" Grow the hell up. Or at least pretend to have a modicum of class.
Nighty Night.
Wow! Thanks for calling me an ass and then telling ME to grow up and have class. I'm not allowed to ask questions that you don't like? I even complimented your son's team. I really wasn't trying to change your happiness, as you said. I guess by asking sincere questions, I did that anyway. Sorry.
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Quote:
Quote:
If I am not mistaken, they were in four of the eight finals and didn't have a team in the U-18 final four.
You are mistaken CUFC U18 Girls played CESA U18 Premier at 2:30 (CESA 3 CUFC 0)....and just to mention it (not that it matters) there are 2 Columbia players on the CESA U-18 team.
To answer your question as to why CUFC did not and has not had more state champion teams...that is simple! The CUFC teams simply did not do what it took to win the game(s). That's it plain and simple! it certainly isn't because they are not great athletes, or well trained, or that there is some "flaw" in the CUFC (or any other club) system.
Now on to the HS Season!
Sorry, I meant the U-18 Boys age group. The girls had a good year. I agree that the players I have seen at CUFC are great athletes and are probably great kids. All I am saying is that if everything else is as even as Coach Chass said, and it is just a matter of one team wins and the other doesn't, then the law of averages says that CUFC should win more than they do and CESA should win less. There must be another reason and why the number of titles is relatively low.
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You are mistaken CUFC U18 Girls played CESA U18 Premier at 2:30 (CESA 3 CUFC 0)....and just to mention it (not that it matters) there are 2 Columbia players on the CESA U-18 team.
Actually, there are 3 players from the Columbia area on the CESA U-18 team.
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Kyle,
Is profanity allowed on this message board now? I would like that. Where will you draw the line- George Carlin's "7" words. Just want to know what the parameters are so I can participate.
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Over the years, I have observed a trend in sports (and business) that whoever is first at introducing a successful process, product or methodology tends to have a huge advantage and often stays on top for a long time. I think the UNC women's program is a good example in college soccer (McDonald's and Microsoft are good examples in business). Once UNC got established and won a few consecutive national titles, all the good players wanted to go there. That made it very difficult for the competition to catch up. A few programs like Notre Dame, Florida, Santa Clara, Portland, etc, have had some success but have never really been able to get to the level of UNC. Does this mean these other programs are not successful? No. They are very solid programs but are facing a steep uphill climb in trying to dethrone UNC. I think this is similiar with CUFC & BFA trying to match CESA's success. CESA established themselves first and are clearly dominant in SC and good players want to play there.
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Just to be clear, I never said everything WAS even; I said IF it was, there would still be a winner and a loser every year. And the law of averages can be a bit deceptive...flip a quarter ten times, and see if you come up with exactly 5 heads and 5 tails. The chances are exactly the same no matter how many times you flip, or how many times one side comes up in a row.
Now, for a curiosity on my point...why, exactly, are you "disappointed" with CUFC's performance? I mean, I understand what you've said about not living up to expectations, but disappointment implies some personal wish for something that doesn't materialize; what is your stake in CUFC's championship bid?
I've got good news and bad news...
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I would have to agree... the CUFC teams were a bit disappointing this year. I believe that those who didnt win or didnt make it to the final four were due to lack of coaching effort. Maybe they will figure it out one day and create a very well rounded team....On the other hand Props go to the CUFC U17 boys... Man they put a beating on CESA. Good luck to them in Texas?? is that right??
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Here's a ranking of SC clubs based completely on Fall 2008 Challenge Cup results:
Rank - Club - Points
1 - CESA - 33.5
2 - CUFC - 19
3 - BFA - 9
4T - DSC - 4
4T - CFC - 4
6T - LCSC - 3.5
6T - DISA - 3.5
8 - SC Bulls - 1.5
9T - Coast - 1
9T - CSSC - 1
-----------------------
The points were assigned as follows:
Champion - 4 points
Finalist - 3
3rd Place - 2
4th Place -1
U18 Semifinalist - 1.5
Last edited by Coach P; 12/15/08 02:55 PM.
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Thanks Chico..Oh I mean Coach P and Tommy you are correct..Regions will be in Texas next year
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Looking at Coach P's numbers..CUFC is the second best performing club in the State and somehow this is a disappointment? I think the sting from State weekend is fresh and some are wearing their emotions on their sleeves.Calmer heads would see a club that was right there with eight spots...They just need as a club to learn how to finish well and that will come with perseverence..
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Quote:
Thanks Chico..Oh I mean Coach P ...
I'll take that as a compliment. Thanks.
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cht, what were the 8 spots?
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Chico never saw him comming...  Coach P....  the new BIG DOG! 
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing."
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I saw that DSC won the u-18 Boys Championship. What were their two games like for them this weekend. I have watched them play the last two state cups but i was unable to make it to this years. What kind of games did they have in the semis and finals.
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Didn’t take long before we would see spinners on the message board. Point values for placement – are you serious? The worst is that now some folks are claiming that winning state cups was not or is not a goal or mission of the club. That is a nice attempt at a soft landing. You won’t here any excuses or spinning from CESA when they don’t win.
Up until this weekend, the sky was falling on CESA, as some were claiming that the “gap” was closing. You can try and qualify the results until you find a way to rationalize them or to make the difference seem closer, but at the end of the day, there is only one way to look at them. Sure, we can look at Premier League results, Regionals, and College Signings. I think you would find the same answer. But, let’s just look at state cup, which seems to be the best opportunity for head to head comparison:
Fall 2008
CESA – 5
CUFC – 1
Bridge – 1
DSC – 1
Spring 2008
CESA – 3
CUFC – 1
Fall 2007
CESA – 5
CUFC – 1
Bridge – 1
DSC – 1
Spring 2007
CESA – 2
Bridge – 2
Fall 2006
CESA – 4
CUFC – 1
Bridge – 1
DSC – 1
Lexington – 1
Spring 2006
CESA 4
Fall 2005
CESA – 5
Bridge – 2
NECSA – 1
Spring 2005
CESA – 6
CSC – 1
MPSC – 1
Fall 2004
CESA – 8
Fall 2004 – Fall 2008 Total (out of possible 60 state cup titles)
CESA – 42
Bridge – 7
CUFC – 4
DSC – 3
Lexington – 1
MPSC – 1
CSC – 1
NECSA – 1
How does law of averages fit in here?
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sweet,
discoveries were very good in the last game. struggled to an overtime win in the semifinal against a game cesa challenge team.
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I am okay with the new BIG DOG as long as he throws in some pie charts and graphs every once in a while..
Loc Dog..CUFC had two teams in the 17 boys..One team in every other age group boys and girls except for 18 boys where they did not place a team..That's eight!!
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oh, you included saturday - ok.
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Loc Dog,
I think CHT is referring to the semi-finalist positions.
Last week the discussion in another thread was about how the "gap was closing". That was based on the number of respective teams in the final four.
This week, some have made comments relative to the results of the past weekend, particularly the number of championships. Some, one in particular, has called that childish among other things. Others, continue to point to the number of final four teams.
In the end, it's how you choose to measure success. If you measure as the number of final four teams, then yes, CUFC appears to have closed the gap a little. However, if you measure by the number of champions alone, the gap has not been closed at all.
The same data set can be used to support either position, and produce the continuing dialogue.
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I think most were realistic to what their chances were at state..I say most not all
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oh, you included saturday - ok.
I think he was referring to Final 4 spots. And, except for U18, all 4 play on Saturday and Sunday. And, I believe, the 3rd place games on Sunday were for a 3rd Premier League spot for 3 age groups: U15G, U16B, & U17B.
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Last year's results looks just like this years..The CFC girls made it to the final game but lost 1-0..Kudos to them for a good run..that's 17 girls..
Last edited by coldhardtruth; 12/15/08 04:24 PM.
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I have not really seen the CESA haters this year..Actually this site has really been quiet this season..I am sure high school ball will change that!!Maybe we are seeing a change in people's perception or attitude towards the most successful club in the state.Maybe more are seeing CESA as the measuring stick for their own clubs success..
Last edited by coldhardtruth; 12/15/08 04:32 PM.
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I guess the sarcasm wasn't picked up on but the discussion afterwards answered it all- semifinalist and 3rd place games- got it.
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Coach P. hit the nail on the head with the "first to introduce a successful process" with the numbers (that don't lie!) of CESA's success--that coupled with the talent and coaching they have makes it an uphill climb for the rest of the state clubs/teams. No need to rehash the yearly arguement of why CUFC (or BFA when they were considered the most serious competition) does not compare to CESA--the numbers are what they are.
But let's be serious here folks, being the top dog in our state is like being known as the tallest dwarf or having the best smile in an English pub--that a $5 will get you a cup of joe at Starbucks!
Cngrats to all the kids and parents that got to enjoy the great weekend of soccer at the ever-expanding MESA complex--great job on the tournament by the folks at CESA and the state tournament officials.
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Oh!!That was sarcasm..I get it now
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all that matters is DSC u18 boys are ballers! them boys are sick.
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HWhat happened in the DSC Cesa Challenge game. it went to Overtime?
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Last year's results looks just like this years..The CFC girls made it to the final game but lost 1-0..Kudos to them for a good run..that's 17 girls..
CFC u-17 girls are a good team but they did not make it to the finals last year.
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Any chances that some of the 3rd place teams may play PLIII next season? I read some discussion about this earlier but couldn't fine the post.
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Any chances that some of the 3rd place teams may play PLIII next season? I read some discussion about this earlier but couldn't fine the post.
If you're asking about specific situations, I don't know. The general info, last I knew for sure, is:
If a finalist chooses to not take the spot, I believe the spot is automatically offered to the 3d place team. Also, in some age groups, teams can petition to get in the league as long as they finished 3d. Depending on the age group and the number of teams from the other states, these can be successful. (I happen to know of one team that won the league as a "petition" team!). Decisions on petitions aren't made until the meeting at Regionals in late June.
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im not sure how many region spots are guranteed to each state. if a finalist decides not to take the spot then im sure some of the other states may try to get it.
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Rather than summarize, here's the text from the latest version of the Rules:
Each US Youth Soccer National State Association may allow club teams in the following age categories for Boys and Girls; U14, U15, U16, U17, and U18 to apply for acceptance.
The US Youth Soccer National State Association will determine their teams that may apply for acceptance. (Generally it is anticipated that the club teams will be the Winner and Runner-up of the State's most recent Championship tournament, or in the case of an existing competitive league available to all state association teams, the Champion and Runner-up teams based on the teams prior full-year standing.) Participation is open to any properly registered competitive team in good standing with the member of the US Youth Soccer National State Association.
The US Youth Soccer Region III Premier League (Region III Premier League) Sub-Region Committee shall have the authority to accept teams for competition that have approved applications from their US Youth Soccer National State Association. The Region III Premier League Committee shall have the final authority to accept teams and reserves the right to refuse admittance of any team based upon the team’s prior performance in the Premier League (i.e. repeated failure to play matches, failure to comply with league rules, excessive misconduct, etc.).[/]
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Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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It's pretty rare to find ten players on a team with such close proximity and to have the success they had..Congratulations!!
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Which of the rock hill kids don't go to Northwestern? Where do they play???
"Boys, even if it means dying on the pitch, we must win!" Marc-Vivien Foe 1975 - 2003
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Good opening to point out that the CUFC U-17 Elite boys are all from Columbia. All fifteen guys were with either CSC or NECSA before the merger. That's one of the things I love about CUFC - it focuses on developing local talent.
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The following is from the 2008/2009 SC Youth Soccer Administrative Manual:
"If you are a SC Youth Soccer Publix Challenge Cup 1st or 2nd Place Winner, then you will be asked to play in the Region III Premier League. If 1st or 2nd place decline the opportunity, then the 3rd place team in the Publix Challenge Cup will be asked to play. If your team finished or is declared a 1st or 2nd place finish in the previous years Premier league then you will be asked to play in the Region III Premier League, if this opportunity arises, then 3rd place team in the Publix Challenge Cup will be asked to play."
Based on this, I believe the following teams will be asked to play in the R3PL in 2009 (2009-2010 age groups):
U16G: CESA 93 Premier, CUFC 93 Elite, Bridge FA 93 Gold
U17G: Bridge FA 92 Gold, CESA 92 Premier
U18G: CESA 91 Premier, Carolina FC 91
U16B: CESA 93 Premier, CUFC 93 Elite
U17B: U17B: CESA 92 Premier, Bridge FA 92 Gold, LCSC United 92 White
U18B: CUFC 91 Elite, CESA 91 Premier, DISA 91 Arsenal
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League: Region III Premier League
If you are a SC Youth Soccer Publix Challenge Cup 1st or 2nd Place Winner, then you will be asked to play in the Region III
Premier League. If 1st or 2nd place decline the opportunity, then the 3rd place team in the Publix Challenge Cup will be asked
to play. If your team finished or is declared a 1st or 2nd place finish in the previous years Premier league then you will be
asked to play in the Region III Premier League, if this opportunity arises, then 3rd place team in the Publix Challenge Cup
will be asked to play.
The U-15 Bridge93 team will be included since the CESA 93 P took 2nd in Premier. Don't know about any other age group
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Good opening to point out that the CUFC U-17 Elite boys are all from Columbia. All fifteen guys were with either CSC or NECSA before the merger. That's one of the things I love about CUFC - it focuses on developing local talent.
that is a great team. good to see some sc kids that can play with anyone.
from the looks of state cup what other age groups is cufc developing local talent in.
cesa does have several out of towners that has helped some teams but if you look at their younger ages they are developing very well.
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The following is from the 2008/2009 SC Youth Soccer Administrative Manual:
"If you are a SC Youth Soccer Publix Challenge Cup 1st or 2nd Place Winner, then you will be asked to play in the Region III Premier League. If 1st or 2nd place decline the opportunity, then the 3rd place team in the Publix Challenge Cup will be asked to play. If your team finished or is declared a 1st or 2nd place finish in the previous years Premier league then you will be asked to play in the Region III Premier League, if this opportunity arises, then 3rd place team in the Publix Challenge Cup will be asked to play."
Based on this, I believe the following teams will be asked to play in the R3PL in 2009 (2009-2010 age groups):
U16G: CESA 93 Premier, CUFC 93 Elite, Bridge FA 93 Gold
U17G: Bridge FA 92 Gold, CESA 92 Premier
U18G: CESA 91 Premier, Carolina FC 91
U16B: CESA 93 Premier, CUFC 93 Elite
U17B: U17B: CESA 92 Premier, Bridge FA 92 Gold, LCSC United 92 White
U18B: CUFC 91 Elite, CESA 91 Premier, DISA 91 Arsenal
just being curious.why would the u-16 girls age group get 3 sc teams into region play?
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..The U-15 Bridge93 team will be included since the CESA 93 P took 2nd in Premier. Don't know about any other age group
Yes, assuming you are speaking of girls, that was in my post above. The Bridge 93 girls should be asked to play in the U16 R3PL in 2009.
Also, LCSC 92 boys should be invited because CESA 92 Premier took 1st place in the boys 2008 U15 R3PL. And, since CUFC 91 finished 1st in the 2008 U17 R3PL, DISA 91 will be included.
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Quote:
Quote:
The following is from the 2008/2009 SC Youth Soccer Administrative Manual:
"If you are a SC Youth Soccer Publix Challenge Cup 1st or 2nd Place Winner, then you will be asked to play in the Region III Premier League. If 1st or 2nd place decline the opportunity, then the 3rd place team in the Publix Challenge Cup will be asked to play. If your team finished or is declared a 1st or 2nd place finish in the previous years Premier league then you will be asked to play in the Region III Premier League, if this opportunity arises, then 3rd place team in the Publix Challenge Cup will be asked to play."
Based on this, I believe the following teams will be asked to play in the R3PL in 2009 (2009-2010 age groups):
U16G: CESA 93 Premier, CUFC 93 Elite, Bridge FA 93 Gold
U17G: Bridge FA 92 Gold, CESA 92 Premier
U18G: CESA 91 Premier, Carolina FC 91
U16B: CESA 93 Premier, CUFC 93 Elite
U17B: U17B: CESA 92 Premier, Bridge FA 92 Gold, LCSC United 92 White
U18B: CUFC 91 Elite, CESA 91 Premier, DISA 91 Arsenal
just being curious.why would the u-16 girls age group get 3 sc teams into region play?
never mind.i see the other post
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..The U-15 Bridge93 team will be included since the CESA 93 P took 2nd in Premier. Don't know about any other age group
Yes, assuming you are speaking of girls, that was in my post above. The Bridge 93 girls should be asked to play in the U16 R3PL in 2009.
Also, LCSC 92 boys should be invited because CESA 92 Premier took 1st place in the boys 2008 U15 R3PL. And, since CUFC 91 finished 1st in the 2008 U17 R3PL, DISA 91 will be included.
is that a sure thing or is it up to the region staff to make the offer to play.
sometimes things are written but that is not how it ends up.
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I think it is pretty much automatic. The CUFC 93 girls played R3PL this season as a third team because CESA 93 Premier was second in the R3PL last year.
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from a competitive standpoint does it hurt or help sc to have that many teams in a certain age group? would sc be better if only the state champs got a region spot.then all the players that wanted to play at that level would go to one team.thought being all the better players would be on one team.then sc would compete better across the board in region play.i think you would see some clubs get better and some would get worse.
i would not want to see just one sc team for each age but it is just something to discuss or argue about.
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from a competitive standpoint does it hurt or help sc to have that many teams in a certain age group? would sc be better if only the state champs got a region spot.then all the players that wanted to play at that level would go to one team.thought being all the better players would be on one team.then sc would compete better across the board in region play.i think you would see some clubs get better and some would get worse.
i would not want to see just one sc team for each age but it is just something to discuss or argue about.
I understand your point, but if we are getting a 3rd spot because of taking 1st or 2nd place the previous year, at least one team must be competitive at that level. But to support your point, in the U15 girls division this season, CESA Premier finished 2nd while the other two SC teams finished 11th and 12th out of 12 teams.
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from the looks of state cup what other age groups is cufc developing local talent in.
cesa does have several out of towners that has helped some teams but if you look at their younger ages they are developing very well.
To what "younger ages" are you referring? "Several out of towners?" I think CESA has kids from all over the SE scattered over all U-15-U-18 teams. They had three kids on the U-15 Premier boys team who were added right before the roster deadline. Six kids on the U-17 Premier boys played for different clubs last year, etc. Nothing illegal or immoral there, but I do get tired of the canard that CESA's "system" is responsible for all of its success.
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actually when i said younger i meant the 13 and 14 ages.we will use those since other than the kids still in diapers you named them all.
im still trying to figure out what works best.letting players that want to come play for your club as cesa does,or trying to breed it at home that you say cufc is doing.who is getting the best results.honest question.what is working best.you sure do not like the way cesa is doing it but it seems to work as state cup shows year end and year out.
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Hard H
I think that by having both your daughters in Gville you believe in the CESA way. Then again she did just win a state championship, so I can understand.
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Hard H
I think that by having both your daughters in Gville you believe in the CESA way. Then again she did just win a state championship, so I can understand.
im still trying to figure out what is best.develope it young or build it and it will come.
seems the cesa way is working.
Last edited by Hard Headed; 12/17/08 07:46 PM.
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im still trying to figure out what works best.letting players that want to come play for your club as cesa does,or trying to breed it at home that you say cufc is doing.who is getting the best results.honest question.what is working best.you sure do not like the way cesa is doing it but it seems to work as state cup shows year end and year out.
I really don't think there is a "right" or "wrong" model. CUFC focuses on taking the kids it has and developing their talent. CESA does the same, but quite clearly is happy to go find good players and bring them in (as well as cheerfully accept the ones who seek them out) as a supplement to its development of the local kids. In some ways, CESA's state cup success is self-perpetuating. They win cups, kids want to play for winners so they move to CESA, so CESA wins, and so on. That's fine. I have to say though that there is something distasteful to me about putting kids on your roster for state cup who haven't played for you all season. Some would call them "ringers." What happened to the three kids whose places they took (whether on the roster or just on the field)?
In any event, I like the way CUFC does things. I never have to question whether the motivation is developing the players or, rather, winning titles. I am in the fortunate position of being associated with a team that wins, so maybe its easier for me to say that.
(Again, for the record, I don't hate CESA. It is a great club and it remains the yardstick against which the rest of us are measured. There are only a couple of things about the club that bug me.)
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Happy,
I believe the CUFC Girls U18 team has several players from CESA and Mt. Pleasant Club on it rosters this year. How many players does it take to be home grown?
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Here is another way to look at "possible" reasons for club success in South Carolina.
Each section of the state of South Carolina possesses a distinct mentality, which may in turn translate into a unique "soccer" mentality at the club level. The Charleston area, the Columbia area, and the Greenville area have fielded a number of successful clubs over the last 20 years (Hungryneck, CMSA, DSA, St. Giles, GFC, NECSA, etc.) I grew up in Aiken, so I never played for a club IN one of the larger Metro areas, but as a player and now as a high school and club coach, I have competed against many dif. teams.
Over the course of 30 years I have spent a lot of time in each city, seeing the best and the worst, and I think that the mindset of many people who live in the Charleston and Columbia areas is to a degree a more South Carolinian, pride in the state, old school. Things seem more clickish, ideologies a tad more forged, etc.
I've lived in the upstate since 2000, and the mindset of many people in the Greenville area is different than what I saw in Aiken, Charleston or Columbia. Greenville seems less a part of "old" South Carolina and more an example of a midsize city in the new South. There seems to more of a mindset of collaboration across the board in people, from the revitilization of downtown, to people on the street, to perhaps the merging of two strong clubs by two coaches who saw a chance to do something differently.
There are a LOT of good coaches and players in Columbia and Charleston, and I think CUFC is doing things the right way, but I also think it's going to be harder for a club in Columbia to see the comprehensive success that CESA is experiencing simply because CESA is in Greenville and CUFC is in Columbia. The same for Bridge or MPSC in Charleston. The cities are different. The people are different. And the ideas and mindsets they bring with them are different.
Affluence, geographic size and ease of navigation all play roles also, but those are different points for a different day.
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.... I have to say though that there is something distasteful to me about putting kids on your roster for state cup who haven't played for you all season. Some would call them "ringers." What happened to the three kids whose places they took (whether on the roster or just on the field)?
In any event, I like the way CUFC does things. I never have to question whether the motivation is developing the players or, rather, winning titles. I am in the fortunate position of being associated with a team that wins, so maybe its easier for me to say that.....
Happy Daddy... I do not disagree with anything you said other than I would like to correct a slight misconception in your part.
CUFC has indeed brought in players at the last minute for state cup purposes. I could not tell you about this year but for certain last year and the year of the merger.
Whether you can call them ringers or replacing injured players would need to be seen on an individual team basis.
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Most ringers are playing for their team at state..We had two players sign on late due to injuries..Two starters were out and unable to play..The players that were brought in played less than half the game..They were there to help support the team..not win the game for them
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I'm afraid I didn't quite understand that.
I certainly don't have any objection to adding players late, most especially if there are injuries or other issues, and if the added players are from other teams within the club that didn't qualify for state cup. When [we] start bringing in players from out of state, between the end of the season and the roster deadline, well, that's a bit different.
As long as we all remember that the entire exercise is for the kids, and not the parents, coaches, administrators, etc., we'll generally do the right thing.
Cheers
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Happydaddy your kid plays for a good club and on a great team.no matter if developing young talent or bringing in out of towners is the answer it looks like it is working better for cesa. you are going to dislike cesa even if they lost every game.
as far as bringing in kids for state cup.i have raised this issue before but for reginals.with our state cup so early for the older ages your roster is locked for state cup.other states do not have their state cup until spring and it gives them 6 more months to add players.at reginals in oklahoma there was a team we played a few times that had 4 different players at reginals.that was 4 i knew of.
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I'm afraid you've got me figured wrong. I don't "dislike CESA." I do very much dislike a couple of things about the way they tend to do things. Big, big difference. I like the kids and and I like their parents. I've had one occasion to deal with a coach from CESA on a personally important matter and he was patient, professional and understanding. They're fine folks up there. So, I'm not accepting service on the "CESA hater" charge that gets leveled at me. It just ain't true.
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c'mon happydaddy. go ahead and wear that hat.
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i disagree with the statement/philosophy (or whatever you want to call it) that cufc is the only club developing local talent. i have to believe that every club in the state develops the talent that is available to them, wherever that talent is from. if a club just happens to have enough talent locally to form a successful team, wonderful. but, i doubt very seriously that cufc is going to turn away talented players just because they are from out of town.
if i recall correctly, that cufc u17 boys team has been together, and successful, for quite some time now. if this is true, cufc is not doing anything different, i.e., developing local talent – it just so happens the majority of that team has been together for years.
so, i don’t think cesa is specifically NOT developing local talent – i think they are doing what every other club in the state is doing – they hold tryouts, and the best players make the team – period – whichever city you are from. i’m sure they would love to say “hey, look at us, we have a team that just came in first place in R3, and guess what else – everybody on the team is from the greenville area!” it just doesn’t work out that way.
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That's a strawman argument. I never said either that CUFC was "the only club developing local talent," or that CESA "[isn't] developing local talent." Of course they are. The difference (in my opinion) is that CESA is far more inclined to seek out players from outside of its "natural" service area in order to supplement the rosters of its teams.
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HD,
In your opinion, what is the reason CUFC does not seek out talent outside of their area. Is it something in the mission statement,team chemistry, parental backlash, etc.
In addition, if CUFC does not actively recruit players outside their area, would they be willing to take on out of town players that just showed up for tryouts. Or, does CUFC just have a difficult time attracting these players. For example, with your son's team that has had some success that should not be an issue, but if a CUFC team is not in the Premier league maybe that makes sense for out of town players to not come. Looking for your thoughts.
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how long does someone have to drive to be considered an out of towner?
is someone from anderson that drives to cesa considered an out of towner?
is someone that drives from blythwood to cufc considered an out of towner?
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Hard Head, I've seen your odometer!  Don't worry....you qualify!!!
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Hard Head,
Don't worry....you qualify!!!
the smart ones do 
i rented a car for texas.
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In response to clubs developing "home grown" talent or bringing in out of towners...
The club name, CESA, stands for CAROLINA Elite Soccer Academy. It doesn't say Greenville or Upstate. It says CAROLINA, the WHOLE state.
In CUFC's case, we have COLUMBIA United FC.
The two words "Carolina Elite" make it sound like CESA expects to field the best teams in all of South Carolina.
CUFC sounds like it expects to fields the strongest teams in all of Columbia.
Based on the wording, each club is doing pretty much exactly what their name says they should.
Perhaps only the rhetoricians are to blame.
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I think there are several factors at work. One difference is in the structure of the clubs. CUFC is run by, and its teams are coached by, part-time people. There is not nearly the pressure for wins and titles that I believe exists at CESA. Consequently, you just aren't going to see CUFC coaches scouting the state and region for players to come join their teams. It just doesn't happen. CESA does that, and they do it successfully. That contributes greatly to the perpetuation of its success. They win, which makes it more attractive, both to "recruits" and to those who might take their own initiative to move there, which creates better teams, which win, which makes it more attractive...
CUFC seems happy to have kids from everywhere try out. I have not meant to suggest that CUFC has a policy or preference that discriminates in favor of Midlands kids. On the other hand, I don't think you'll see CUFC teams replacing players after tryouts with kids they "find" elsewhere.
I should also make clear that I don't speak for anyone but myself and I don't know every single thing that goes on with every team. There may be exceptions to what I've described as the "culture" of the Club.
People are free to characterize what I say as rationalizations for CUFC's relative lack of success at state cup. I prefer to see it as more of an explanation (partial) than a rationalization.
Bottom line - CESA, as a club, cares a great deal about adding soccer balls to its website. I think that is less important to CUFC. Some may argue that it should be more important, and that is perfectly fair. I happen to like the way we do things. I also accept that it hamstrings our ability to compete across the board with CESA in terms of championships. I'll repeat that I don't think there is a morally "right" or "wrong" way to do these things. I just have a strong personal preference in the matter.
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So now we bring in the recruiting angle....yet again. But I know, you don't hate CESA in general only a couple of things about the way they operate.
Call it rationalization, or explanation, the simple answer is, both can be characterized as an excuse.
I know you are fortunate to be involved with the 1 home grown and developed team that has had success, but, I wonder if you would feel the same way if you weren't the "special" one.
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happy, maybe it's not so much that cufc chooses not to do that as much as cesa, but that they cannot do it as well, so you argue that they don't (thus making it sound nicer).
i have never before heard anyone from cufc say what you have been saying (about the local vs not-local). not that i know everything (or much of anything) going on there, but i just doubt this is anything any group of people at cufc have made some "decision" about.
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the "special" one
That's Jose Mourinho.
I'd address the rest of your post except for the fact that there isn't anything in it that I haven't already addressed.
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there isn't anything in it that I haven't already addressed.
Funny, I don't seem to remember you addressing the reasons vs excuses aspect. But then again, that would be a matter of trying to discuss something which is an opinion/perception, without shifting the focus away from the issue and pointing it at another club. No worries though. I can use the term fair enough like others.
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i basically came to the conclusion that happy was stating happy's opinion alone. not what happy thought other people were thinking. just what happy was thinking. that's why i said "fair enough."
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Belligerent,
You're spot on. Not one coach or director at CUFC does not want to add soccer balls to their website and they will go to lengths to do that. CUFC has coaches that recruit and they will continue to do so. To say otherwise is ludicrous.
Does anyone ever consider that maybe players from out of town might actually contact CESA and that all these out of towners were not recruited by CESA coaches. Also, of the 8 finalists CESA had in the finals, 5 of them were coached by coaches that have other full time jobs. Wonder where they found the time.
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I can not see to many coaches living off training fees alone as far as the recruiting issue..I feel that players and or parents look elsewhere when they feel their needs are not being served..Looking for greener pastures..So when they go calling and make a team it looks like the club is recruiting..Do clubs contact players? If they do then I would bet they all do..
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All clubs recruit. The simplest and easily recognizable form of this is the marketing by mass mailer for tryouts.
I do not believe the SCYSA has distinctly defined what allowable recruiting is, only what illegal recruiting is. I believe they have other rules in place so when read in it's entirety, what is allowable can be interpretted. Any time 2 different people can interpret the same thing, often times it's not the same result.
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Here is an excerpt from the SCYSA Aministrative manual that deals with recruiting:
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IV. RESPONSIBILITIES REGARDING RECRUITING
1. A player may only be recruited after the completion of his/her State Cup competition until such time the player is registered or rostered by the South Carolina Youth Soccer State Registrar/designee for the next seasonal year. (State Cup competition includes: State Cup, Region Cup, and National Cup).
2. Unethical recruiting is defined as any intentional act whereby coaches or parents contact a player, outside of their club, who is registered or rostered by the South Carolina Youth Soccer State Registrar/designee on another South Carolina Youth Soccer team to entice that player to join their team before his/her State Cup competition is completed. (State Cup competition includes: State Cup, Region Cup, and National Cup).
3. All South Carolina Youth Soccer rules pertaining to recruiting shall be strictly observed by the coaches and parents.
4. It is unethical for a player to be recruited or enticed from the Olympic Development Program (ODP) setting, either by his/her ODP coach or any other coaches or parent during the seasonal year. (Refer to # 2)
5. When discussing the advantages of their organization, the coaches have an ethical obligation to be forthright and
refrain from making derogatory remarks regarding other coaches, teams, and organizations.
6. It is unethical for any coach to make a statement to a prospective athlete which cannot be fulfilled; illegal to promise any kind of compensation or inducement for play; and immoral to deliver same.
7. Allegations of illegal or unethical recruiting are very serious and should be based on concrete facts rather than hearsay and innuendo. While documentation of recruiting violations is essential, the use of videotape and other electronic equipment is discouraged.
8. Any such allegations of illegal or unethical recruiting must be submitted, in writing, to the appropriate District Commissioner with all supporting evidence to prove such activity.
V. PENALTIES / VIOLATIONS
Any coaches, players, parents or administrators found guilty of violating the intent, the spirit, or rules of the South Carolina Youth Soccer Code of Ethics and Conduct, may be subject to probation, suspension and fines. Anyone found guilty of unethical recruiting may be subject to a minimum one year suspension from all South Carolina Youth Soccer Activities. (All activities shall include being a spectator with the exception of when their child is playing).
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It's interesting to me that parents are not allowed to recruit, but the penalty is to suspend them from all activities except being a spectator when their child is playing. Not sure how that would be enforced and how much of a penalty it really is.
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I know this horse is, if not dead, badly wounded! But, one last whack from me:
I know that CUFC's leadership discourages contacting players who have been at other clubs. That is not to say that it never happens, only that it is discouraged and his manifestly an exceptional event. I understand that CESA, on the other hand, encourages its coaches to recruit players from other clubs. (If I am wrong about that, correct me).
I agree that many (probably most, in fact) players who go to CESA from outside of its geographic area do so of their own volition and not because they were recruited, and I've never said differently.
I have never accused CESA of violating the recruiting rules. I have said that, in my opinion, recruiting at ODP events violates the spirit of an ambiguous rule.
What I am saying is that there is a culture at CESA that encourages activity in pursuit of championships that I don't care for. I freely acknowledge that it works - look at all the soccer balls. It isn't illegal or immoral. Generally, it probably isn't even fair to call it unseemly. Heck (didn't want to offend loc dog), its pretty darn common around the country. Maybe the best way to describe what I perceive to be the difference between the philosophies of the two clubs, in this context, is this: CESA's goal is win championships and works backwards from there. CUFC takes its players and tries to make them as good as it can, and if that results in championships - wonderful.
BTW - some of you folks need to stop taking this stuff so personally. I really don't understand the defensiveness. No one has substantively disputed my characterization of CESA, only some have suggested "yeah, well CUFC does it too." Either way, you CESA folks know what goes on and know that it works, I would expect you to be proud, not defensive.
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Happy , I have no dog in the fight (yet), but being in a succesful team may be clouding what you see.
True or False?
CESA holds a spring showcase where some ODP teams play. The showcase is to show of CESA to all.... therefore TRUE recruiting (at least subliminally)is there thus you are correct
True or False?
Bridge coach approaches ODP players and invites them play for his team and has his parents add to the "pressure"... TRUE recruiting exists and again you are correct
True or false?
CUFC coach (who apparently missed the meeting where the leadership discouraged conatcting players) tells his high school players that they need to play for CUFC. The implication here is no CUFC no HS next year... Again True - so how is this any different than the first 2
All 3 are factual, all 3 happened and CUFC is in it with the big boys. You may not see it but everyone else does... that maybe why the CESA folks do not see it either.
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Here's a twist..What's wrong with recruiting? If the clubs are doing what they say they are doing then why would anybody want to leave their home club to go elsewhere? The reality is that in some age groups the state Champions are so much stronger than the rest of the field that clubs are left with little choice but to find players to compete against these strong teams..With the exception of a few..most dominate teams are not homegrown..Players choose to move..they are not forced too
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Futbol, what is it that cesa folks don't see?
Happy Daddy, what does it take to develop players?
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Loc Dog, I am going to take a stab at this and you tell me what you think..I don't think it is something that the folks don't see as much as it is a mentality change. Four or five years is when the mergers and players moving around really started to take shape..For some clubs to see two boys or girls come to play in the lowcountry from the Hilton Head area meant some local players might lose their spots on a team..The coaches were excited to get this talent but team wise the reception of two players out of the area was less welcoming..I think that CESA has handled this perception better than other clubs and players and parents expect to see new players that are from outside of the area and are more comfortable with this other than the one or two that might lose positions on a particular team. Because they see the end result..Championships!!
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And to add to this is when the player movement began..I would think most Greenville kids stayed there and new players came in..but in the case of let's say MPSC or SSC..Most of these players moved causing the clubs to have less success in certain age groups..
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I will leave on this note...CESA does things well because you have a couple of individuals making the decisions..If you don't like the decision..you can choose to move on..Other clubs still have to much involvement from parents and I think this hinders their chances for success..DONE!!
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LD I was just explaining to happy that if he feels that CESA does not see recruiting and he does...then he does not see CUFC recruiting and everyone else does
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CESA was first in line with merging two successful clubs which has evolved into a super club. They were successful in the beginning and that attracted players from all over. CESA got there first and they have been able to reap the benefits, everybody wants to be associated with a winner. It's been said here before, the best recruiting tool is winning.
But then there's some of us who don't want to travel that far, so we stay within our local communities. Might not like losing to CESA all the time, but it's supposed to be about having fun win or lose. At least that's what every club tells you at the parents meetings.
As far as illegal recruiting goes, probably most of what could be termed recruiting, if any, occurs from parents telling opposing players they should come play with their club.
There's also a mindset with players who dread playing CESA, so they enter a game with a defeatist attitude which is hard to overcome when your team goes down a goal. In addition, there are still a lot of young players who are more interested in being with their friends than working to improve their own individual play and leaving it all on the field.
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My problem with the ODP recruiting thing was with both SCYSA and CESA. Having ODP teams compete in a CESA event, in the middle of "recruiting season," was a bad idea. I know that several of the ODP coaches were furious about what was going on. (What was going on was recruiting, not just having the event at CESA). As I have said, it wasn't a violation of the rules (as I read them), but I think it violated the spirit of the rules.
Your Bridge coach scenario is too vague to respond to. As a general proposition, I think ODP should be off limits to recruiting conduct, regardless of what time of year it may be.
Finally, if a CUFC coach did what you describe, I disapprove of it as strongly as I do any of the conduct at CESA that I've talked about.
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Maybe CUFC should offer to host an ODP event and show us how it's done right.It makes sense..Tryouts are in the Columbia area and most teams train there..
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There are clubs that do not "welcome" talent from the outside. The team/teams will take the new players and use them as subs. There is no quality playing time for the new players as they are new. The majority of the team has played together for a while-being the local ones,and there is no new kid going to take another ones spot. Parents of the local area would not let that happen as well as the coaches from the area. The new talent is there for injury/sub purposes only and only make the roster for that reason.
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We have Harry come out and directly attack CUFC under the guise of being dis-appointed with CUFC. As a CESA person I also question his motive. I don't think it was dis-appointment versus fear that another club in the state has the fundamental structure to challenge CESA. A couple of years ago it might have made sense to drive to Greenville, but no more. All clubs have some good coaching and probably some great coaching. I have had 2 boys play for Rob Stickland and I think he is the best coach in the state, 2 Premier level titles and 2 state championships with teams that started as weak teams with losing records.
CUFC has made the right moves and has the critical mass to become one of the best if not the best in the state.
This is not a belittlement of any club - Ron Tryon , Phil Savitz and Trip Miller have done the things to point CUFC in the right direction.
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no one attacked cufc until happydaddy got fired up.
still makes sense for us to drive to cesa.the oldest just won her 2nd premier state championship out of 3 years at cesa to go on top of the 3 nc challenge state championships.the youngest and her team just won disney.
you say cufc has the structure to become one of the best or the best in the state.as big as they are they better be one of the best.if they are going to over take cesa as the best then when do they start? from state cup it doesnt look like armageddon as of yet.
Last edited by Hard Headed; 12/20/08 04:08 AM.
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Maybe CUFC should offer to host an ODP event and show us how it's done right.
I don't think it's a good idea. If they were to do it, it shouldn't be in the middle of their tryouts, and it should be during the "seasonal year," making recruiting clearly illegal. The problem with this last proviso is that the ODP stuff is all going on between December and July - outside the seasonal year for all players not going to Regionals.
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no one attacked cufc until happydaddy got fired up
No- harry got this started with his concern trolling.
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No- you did with your typical cesa is not doing anything illegal but they cheat post.
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You guys don't know how happy you make me to be coaching a Classic team at one of the smaller clubs, where all I have to worry about is whether my players are developing both individually and as a team, and whether they're getting something positive out of the experience--not always about who is "best" and who wins the most championships, as if that were always truly a measure of how much players have progressed as a result of being a part of the club.
Yes, CESA has the advantage of being an established winner, and players who want to be recognized want to play for an established winner--which leads to a larger and more selective player pool, which helps to perpetuate the winning, which increases the reputation, et cetera, and so on, ad nauseum. It does leave the question of whether the winning is a result of the player pool, or whether the player pool is a result of the winning. Chicken or egg.
Could CESA win as many championships if good players from other areas didn't travel there based on reputation? Could CUFC win more championships if more of those players came there rather than CESA? Could a thousand monkeys with a thousand typewriters working for a thousand years eventually reproduce the combined works of Shakespeare?
A better question might be, is my child/young adult having a positive experience at his/her soccer club, and is he/she gaining the skills, confidence, and motivation to succeed at his/her goals?
If the answer is yes...it really doesn't matter what the "other" guy is doing.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Sorry Head..Harry did get the ball rollin..He was fishing in the wrong lake
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Coach..That's alot of typewriter ribbon
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There is one thing all the mergers and player movement has done over the last few years..It has made state cup predictable and unless your child is involved in cup play..kind of boring..Let's face it..CESA ,CUFC and BFA will hold most of the spots..There are not going to be to many cinderella teams winning state cup..Not that I pull for the under dog all the time but when the same teams end up in the same spots each year..It kind of loses it's luster
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Sorry Head..Harry did get the ball rollin..He was fishing in the wrong lake
i must of missed that post.i will have to go back and read.
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Just goes to show, with all the recruiting going on in club soccer, it's much more difficult to win a HS State Championship. Wando girls 2 time defending State Champs, and favorites for a third. How awesome is that!!!!
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Yeah if you go back towards the top..Harry was showing this great concern for a club he is not involved with..Kind of callin them out..The cheatin stuff just kind of followed..
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What does Club recruiting have to do with H.S.Championships?
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You guys don't know how happy you make me to be coaching a Classic team at one of the smaller clubs, where all I have to worry about is whether my players are developing both individually and as a team, and whether they're getting something positive out of the experience--not always about who is "best" and who wins the most championships, as if that were always truly a measure of how much players have progressed as a result of being a part of the club.
Yes, CESA has the advantage of being an established winner, and players who want to be recognized want to play for an established winner--which leads to a larger and more selective player pool, which helps to perpetuate the winning, which increases the reputation, et cetera, and so on, ad nauseum. It does leave the question of whether the winning is a result of the player pool, or whether the player pool is a result of the winning. Chicken or egg.
Could CESA win as many championships if good players from other areas didn't travel there based on reputation? Could CUFC win more championships if more of those players came there rather than CESA? Could a thousand monkeys with a thousand typewriters working for a thousand years eventually reproduce the combined works of Shakespeare?
A better question might be, is my child/young adult having a positive experience at his/her soccer club, and is he/she gaining the skills, confidence, and motivation to succeed at his/her goals?
If the answer is yes...it really doesn't matter what the "other" guy is doing.
coach in this case i think you have the player pool because you win.on the premier level anyway.
players that want to play in college and parents that want some help,need to be playing in front of the college coaches.to do that you need to be playing on a team and club that does that for you.if a club or team does not win then i think the player pool is not there.
sorry if i can not wait for your reply.i have to work for a change.
P.S. this is just for the premier level.i know it may be different within a club on the classic level.
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Chass, but, if the answer is no, then it matters greatly what the "other" guy is doing.
Someone always has to get the ball rolling in this kind of debate. On this particular thread it was what has been labeled as the concern trolling with the conclusion of the state cup and the results of the championships.
Before the state cup it was someone discussing the gap closing, when the comparison was made with the number of teams in the final 4.
As in many threads, there are several spin off discussions embedded in this one, many of which can be termed, oh yeah, well what about.....which follows the neener neener statement of being childish. Go figure.
This ODP recruiting thing was several years ago, so not really relevant to the discussion of the number of state cup championships for this year.
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hard headedQuote:
No- you did with your typical cesa is not doing anything illegal but they cheat post.
I choose my words very carefully. That some choose to see things in them that aren't there is not my problem. Your post is a good example. I have repeatedly said that I am unaware of "illegal" conduct on the part of CESA. I have said that I don't like some of the legal conduct by CESA. Reading into that an accusation of cheating is a bit strange.
My frustration with this whole issue, begun by harry, is that people are comparing apples and tangerines. CUFC does not aspire to be like CESA. The CUFC coaches and DOC's do not get together and formulate plans as to how each age group is going to win state cup. The administration does not demand explanations and corrective plans when an age group fails to win state cup. Coaches are not required to keep scouting/recruiting books on the other teams in the state in their age group. Teams don't bring in out of state players for state cup, right at roster freeze, displacing kids who have been on the team all season.
As I said in a previous post, my perception is that CESA's institutional priority at the select level is winning state championships - and everything works backwards from that.
As I have also said, and will say again - none of the above is illegal and to make it clear for you - it is not cheating. I assume that the CESA family understands and approves of the way the club operates and of its priorities. At least I would hope that's the case.
Clearly CUFC has a much more "laid-back" view of things. The coaches and DOC's are well qualified and do a fine job training the players. They are not, however, focused on winning state championships. That just isn't the priority. Please do not mistake that for a lack of desire to win. Of course they want to win - as do the players. It just isn't the primary focus.
So, when harry pops in to tell us how "disappointed" he is that CUFC hasn't done better at state cup, and "wondering" when CUFC will compete better against CESA (without being honest enough to disclose that he is a CESA guy who was really interested only in gloating), I was impelled to chime in. My message is: Don't worry about CUFC. We're doing fine, doing things the way we do them. CESA is doing fine, doing things they way it does them. Just stop using state championships as the be all and end all of a successful club.
Last edited by HappyDaddy; 12/20/08 02:50 PM.
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Coaches are not required to keep scouting/recruiting books on the other teams in the state in their age group.
I have no idea about the internal workings of what the directors and CESA do as far as everything that you say in this post. However, I will tell you, upon transferring, one of the things that most impressed my son about his coach was the fact that he had a scouting report on the team he left, down to the individual players abilities and tendencies. Whether that was mandated by the club, or what the coach did on his own, it showed the commitment level of the coach to be able to develop that from watching other teams in the age group. I remember the drive home and talking about that with a statement of "not only did he have it, it was right".
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Perfectly understandable reaction.
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Quote:
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Coaches are not required to keep scouting/recruiting books on the other teams in the state in their age group.
I have no idea about the internal workings of what the directors and CESA do as far as everything that you say in this post. However, I will tell you, upon transferring, one of the things that most impressed my son about his coach was the fact that he had a scouting report on the team he left, down to the individual players abilities and tendencies. Whether that was mandated by the club, or what the coach did on his own, it showed the commitment level of the coach to be able to develop that from watching other teams in the age group. I remember the drive home and talking about that with a statement of "not only did he have it, it was right".
OK I have to ask this, I know it is off topic but it is really the only beef I have with kids playing at clubs outside of their local club.
Bear - I'm using your post to get this out but please don't take it as criticisim. You mention in your post that you drove so I'm assuming he is/was not old enough to drive suggesting that he is/was still in middle school or a freshman in highschool when you switched.
So my question, What can a child of that age gain by switching to a club that far away that they can not get in their own back yard? and at that age is the minor advagtage they may gain worth the cost? When I say cost I'm not talking about the monitary cost but the physical, social, and educational.
I know this is a very individual question and I just want to get peoples thoughts.
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing."
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don't assume anything about his age. me, personally, even if my child is old enough to drive to greenville, certainly does not mean i am going to LET them drive all the way up there by themselves. not saying that nobody does it.
and, it's also very possible that bear enjoys watching his son (and team) practice. there are actually parents who do that.
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SoccerPop,
Trust me, I don't take anything about that decision that my son made, as criticism. There are some on this board that know the full dynamics of our personal situation at the time when I supported his decision. CHT has on many cases said, it should be the child's choice, and it was.
As for age, he was old enough to drive to practice.
As for the costs that you mention, physical, social and educational. Grades were better during the fall season when we had it, since we had the monitored time in the car. Social, trust me, he has managed just fine. I'm not sure of any difference with physical, but, we got into a routine, sleep in the afternoon on the way up, practice, study on the way home.
My wife and I both ejoyed our 1 on 1 time with our son on Thursday.
As you said, it is an individual situation, and for us, we still feel it was the best decision we made at the time.
If you want more details, PM.
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coach in this case i think you have the player pool because you win.on the premier level anyway.
players that want to play in college and parents that want some help,need to be playing in front of the college coaches.to do that you need to be playing on a team and club that does that for you.if a club or team does not win then i think the player pool is not there.
sorry if i can not wait for your reply.i have to work for a change.
P.S. this is just for the premier level.i know it may be different within a club on the classic level.
I'd have to agree with everything you said there, but with one question: are college coaches so narrow in their focus that they only pay attention to the single most championship-winning club teams in the state? If a club is successful enough to be the second-winningest in the state, with multiple finalist positions at State Cup, are those players going to be passed over, or will the recruiters realize that not all of the best players are always on the winning team? Serious questions...it seems that the argument continually boils down to State Cup championships, with anything less than #1 being labeled as "inferior" and "inadequate."
I've got good news and bad news...
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Chass, but, if the answer is no, then it matters greatly what the "other" guy is doing.
Very true and fair, Bear. I just wonder why it is that there are seldom any particulars of discrepancy mentioned (such as coaching style and quality, general philosophy of management, happiness or unhappiness of players, percentage of players who seek and gain college spots, degree of development of players over time) other than number of state titles won. That doesn't necessarily denote the quality of the system, although it MAY be a product. It could also be that the same pool of players under a different club's management and coaching would do as well. It's hard to say. If people aren't happy, though, it should be because they're not achieving their goals--not just because another club happens to win that final match at the end of the season.
I've got good news and bad news...
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I do not think that college coaches are narrow minded but I believe that if you are playing region ball and you are going to high end tournaments that winning clubs provide then your chances of being noticed are greater..More exposure..The more you are seen..the better chances of getting offers..There is alot of extras that go along with a championship club..College combines and CAP programs..The one thing I appreciate about what CESA does is their girls program is as strong..if not stronger than the boys program..You will not find this happening at most clubs..Most are boy oriented..
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Coach Chass,
I agree with cht. It's hard for an SC team to get into CASL, Disney and Orange classic and often it is only the state champ from South Carolina that gets the invite.
SoccerPop,
I believe U-16 is the crucial year to get on to a team that plays R3PL and gets invited to the tournaments I mention above. The player needs to get established on the team at U-16. The college coaches are swarming all over the U-17's at showcase tournaments.....that's the critical year. Not to say you won't get a good look at U-18 but I know for a fact that the college coaches are concentrating on U-17's at many of these showcase tournaments.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Hurst, CHT, if that's true, then that's a lot of pressure on both the clubs and the young people involved; I fall back to my original statement about being glad I'm in a spot where it's about development and positive experience, where my girls could feel proud of being state finalists rather than left out because the PK shootout in the final match went the wrong way. Wish we had more opportunities for ALL the deserving young people to get the attention they have worked for; then maybe it would be more about achievement and sportsmanship and less about mud-and-dirt slinging over that one coveted spot that gets the job done.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Hmm...a thought just occurred...
If winning it all at U15-U18 levels is what it takes to get noticed and advance to high-level college teams, and that's what it takes to move on to professional levels...how does that all tie into the conversation on another thread about the difference between tactics that produce wins at those levels (U15-U18) vs. training that produces the style of play needed at the professional levels? If being prepared for the big leagues is more about the training than the early wins...but it takes the early wins to get the opportunities...seems like that's more of an incentive for teams to go for the most direct way to get the ball in the net if they have a few strong players to capitalize on, rather than to develop a sophisticated style of play that will pay off later on--but that the players won't get an opportunity to use if they don't get the big wins now. Seems like a bit of a Catch-22 from a simple man's angle.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Coach,
After doing this for the last three years I do not believe my child feels any pressure to perform.I will say that struggling thru region ball is sometimes tough on her but I do believe with more looses than wins that playing at that level has just made her stronger and smarter as a player..If she had to choose between playing at a lesser level and having fun or playing at the top level and struggling to achieve..I think she would take the latter..She has always chosen her path and is realistic to what her chances are at playing college ball.This adventure started out as a simple game and has turned into quite the competitive quest but not for one minute did she ever say that she was not having fun..
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Quote:
Quote:
coach in this case i think you have the player pool because you win.on the premier level anyway.
players that want to play in college and parents that want some help,need to be playing in front of the college coaches.to do that you need to be playing on a team and club that does that for you.if a club or team does not win then i think the player pool is not there.
sorry if i can not wait for your reply.i have to work for a change.
P.S. this is just for the premier level.i know it may be different within a club on the classic level.
I'd have to agree with everything you said there, but with one question: are college coaches so narrow in their focus that they only pay attention to the single most championship-winning club teams in the state? If a club is successful enough to be the second-winningest in the state, with multiple finalist positions at State Cup, are those players going to be passed over, or will the recruiters realize that not all of the best players are always on the winning team? Serious questions...it seems that the argument continually boils down to State Cup championships, with anything less than #1 being labeled as "inferior" and "inadequate."
just home from work so sorry for the late post.it will be short.im tired.
i really didnt mean winning the state cup in my post but i just meant winning. i think any kid can get some exposure to college coaches no matter what team or level they play on if they do some leg work themselves.i just think that playing at a higher level and getting into these bigger tournys kids get the exsposure to coaches outside sc.odp is another way.
i do think that college coaches are more likely to come watch a region team play rather than a classic team.
if you are a college coach and you have your choice between 2 games to watch.west va playing louisiana or north texas playing south texas.which game do you watch?
cufc u-17 girls messed up this year.i thought they were a lock to repeat.even though they did not win state cup and finished 3rd,most if not all of those girls will play in college if they choose to.
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by the way,
state cup needs to be moved so all sc u-15,16 snd 17 teams that can get in can go to casl.well worth it.
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Hard Headed:
How many girls choose not to play college soccer that are given the oportunity? BTW What colleges would these CUFC girls be playing for if they chose to play?
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not sure of the numbers but i know of a couple that because they did not get a chance to play soccer at the school of their choice they skipped soccer and went to that school anyway.
sweet you did not get back to more on what was in store.
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I like this topic better.
If one looks at the questions from the individual player's perspective, the answers can be difficult to find. Kids who, by luck of the draw, live in more metropolitan areas, are going to have better quality soccer easily accessible. What about the kid who lives in Dillon, Bamberg, Summerton or Oconee? She is likely to have some form of recreational soccer available to her, coached by a parent who probably does not know a heck of a lot about the game. Her chances of developing into a high level player are pretty slim.
Likewise, in spite of the efforts that the big clubs make to penetrate the economically disadvantaged "market," a gander at the field on any state cup weekend reveals that we have a long way to go. There are thousands of kids who could be, and should be, participating in soccer who aren't.
How can we do better at building quality opportunities for more kids?
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It's going to take someone who is very gifted (knows the game and knows how to teach it) and patient, who is willing to start with a bunch of kids at age six or seven. The person cannot be financially motivated because there's probably not a lot of dollars to be earned in these markets.
Sumter is a good example. There are four or five very good trainers/coaches who learned their trade and cut their teeth in Sumter. All of them are currently working in other markets in South Carolina.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Quote:
Coach,
After doing this for the last three years I do not believe my child feels any pressure to perform.I will say that struggling thru region ball is sometimes tough on her but I do believe with more looses than wins that playing at that level has just made her stronger and smarter as a player..If she had to choose between playing at a lesser level and having fun or playing at the top level and struggling to achieve..I think she would take the latter..She has always chosen her path and is realistic to what her chances are at playing college ball.This adventure started out as a simple game and has turned into quite the competitive quest but not for one minute did she ever say that she was not having fun..
She sounds like a great player, and I really am looking forward to meeting her...for players like that (who are my favorite type, by the way) challenging themselves IS the definition of "fun."
Reminds me of my high school team...there has been talk lately of our school dropping to 3-A in the next couple of years. We would probably have an easier time being competitive with the 3A schools in our area in soccer...but my team wants to stick with 4A--they say they'd rather take their lumps until they learn to win consistently at that level than drop down and feel like they were settling for less competition!
(Guess their crazy coach must be rubbing off on them.)
I've got good news and bad news...
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On looking back, I think the above is part of what I've been trying to say that I haven't done a good job of expressing...it's not about just kicking back and having fun, but it's also not just about the condition of BEING number one, either...it's about players, teams, and coaches challenging themselves, no matter what the level and rank. I consider a good season one where everyone leaves as a stronger, smarter, better competitor than they were when the season began, and because they are, they can experience "fun" through a sense of accomplishment. If that means learning to play up to stronger competition, then so be it...I see it as better to gain ground by closing in on the competition than to rest on your laurels as #1. If all the best players simply move to the "winning-est" teams...then who will they play against on a day-to-day basis to challenge them to get even better?
Just thinking out loud...this Christmas-break lull puts me to pondering to alleviate the boredom.
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Well said and Coach, you are over on your pm quotas so I can't pm you...Clean it out ...Man!!
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Whoops! Yeah, I save 'em up forever so I can feel like I'm popular...should be nice and tidy now!
I've got good news and bad news...
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So what you are really saying is you found the DELETE ALL button..
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not sure of the numbers but i know of a couple that because they did not get a chance to play soccer at the school of their choice they skipped soccer and went to that school anyway.
HH, maybe it's better as a different topic, but should soccer be a means to an education, or should education be a means to continue soccer? The way you state it above, it sounds like you feel some of these players should have went to schools to play soccer, rather than where they chose to go to school.
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So what you are really saying is you found the DELETE ALL button..
You caught me.
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not sure of the numbers but i know of a couple that because they did not get a chance to play soccer at the school of their choice they skipped soccer and went to that school anyway.
HH, maybe it's better as a different topic, but should soccer be a means to an education, or should education be a means to continue soccer? The way you state it above, it sounds like you feel some of these players should have went to schools to play soccer, rather than where they chose to go to school.
nope
seen a few that went to a school and not play soccer rather than going to a school they may not care to just to play soccer.
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