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I'm not sure on score, but I can tell you this.
MPSC 96 girls won their U13 Challenge match.
Bridge 94 Boys won their U14 Challence match.
DISA Lightning won 2-0 over MPSC 95 Elite.
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Girls - Bridge 94 0 vs. CESA 94 Challenge 1 (off a direct kick). It was a good game. 
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Anyone know any other State Cup scores for U-14 Girls?
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Bridge 94 Gold-11 : 0-DSC 94 Green
By failing to prepare, you prepare to fail.
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Quote:
Anyone know any other State Cup scores for U-14 Girls?
CESA 94 Girls Challenge defeated Bridge 94 Girls Gold: 1-0
CFC 94 Girls Blue defeated Columbia 94 Girls Elite: 1-0
SC Bulls U14 Girls Red defeated SAA Elite 94: 2-1
CESA 94 Premier vs. Columbia 94 Palmetto: score not posted
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U14 Girls - in overtime
Carolina FC 1
Columbia United FC 0
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Quote:
I'm not sure on score, but I can tell you this.
MPSC 96 girls won their U13 Challenge match.
Bridge 94 Boys won their U14 Challence match.
DISA Lightning won 2-0 over MPSC 95 Elite.
MPSC 96 Girls defeated SAA Elite 95: 5-3
Bridge 94 Boys Gold defeated DSC 94 Green: 11-0
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U-13 girls
Lexington 1 - CESA Challenge 0
CUFC 95 Elite 8 - DISA 0
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U13 Boys shocker: #7 Lexington County over #2 Discoveries Green 3-1
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LA would not say a shocker... LEX is quite a good team with many players distracted over JV during the season
Final four club numbers
CESA - 5 teams
CUFC - 3
LCSC - 2
MPSC - 2
Bridge - 1
CFC - 1
DISA - 1
SC Bulls - 1
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Due to quarter-final upsets, both the U13 boys and U14 girls will be sending a 6th or 7th seed to the Premier League next Spring.
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Not really a shocker. Except for a few teams in the 8, 9, 10 slots, it's a very evenly matched league. Strengths and weaknesses a little different on different teams but mostly evenly matched where even the #1 team has played in some tight matches.
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Due to quarter-final upsets, both the U13 boys and U14 girls will be sending a 6th or 7th seed to the Premier League next Spring.
Might be worth looking at a "re-seeding" approach in the future after the first round to give the two highest remaining seeds a chance to proceed in these situations. Doesn't mean either will even make it to the finals, but at least you position things so the two highest remaining seeds entering the semi-finals have a chance to reach Premier League.
Last edited by JAK; 05/11/09 11:31 PM.
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We had that same discussion yesterday. In the U13 Challenge boys bracket now the two highest seeded teams have to play each other in semi-finals on Saturday and one of the lowest seed teams who are playing each other automatically become a region III team because they will be in the final with the winner of two higher seeded teams.
This doesn't make sense. I know that it's designed so in theory the higher seeded team move forward but since that doesn't happen always reseeding for next round would be best option.
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So what you are saying is the world cup or March Madness or whatever in Basketball should reseed every step in order to keep the higher seeds going? Should the Giants replay the superbowl win over the Patriots because the Patriots were clearly better?
What you are also saying is that a team that is "known" to be "better" but faltered during the season should be seeded higher at the start?
it is a known fact at the beginning of the season that is 1 vs 8, 4 vs5 on one side and 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6 on the other.
you bring your game every time, you lose you go home. There is nothing "fair" about it...
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Amen!!! I like to see a different club name from time to time going to state...The big three deal is kinda getting old..
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Just because a 6 or 7 seed makes the final does not require it to take the Premier League spot. Look at the 14 girls from SAA. Last year they made the finals as a lower seed and decided to enter the PL. They only scored one goal and gave up 65 during Premier League play. Looking back, should they have taken the PL spot? Will it be wise for both of the u13 boys and u14 girls finalists to take a PL spot?
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And of course the semifinalist who is a higher seed could earn a Birth on the R3PL by coming in 3rd. The commitees now are also looking at the third place finishers but it is not automatic as 1 and 2
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Another good example would be Bridge FA U-14 boys this season. They too struggled to gain any respect for themselves or the state. But who knows - they may come back and do what they did last year in State Cup.
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Not all..but most teams struggle in Premier play.What we hope for is to close the gap between teams each season
Last edited by coldhardtruth; 05/12/09 04:32 PM.
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Quote:
So what you are saying is the world cup or March Madness or whatever in Basketball should reseed every step in order to keep the higher seeds going? Should the Giants replay the superbowl win over the Patriots because the Patriots were clearly better?
What you are also saying is that a team that is "known" to be "better" but faltered during the season should be seeded higher at the start?
it is a known fact at the beginning of the season that is 1 vs 8, 4 vs5 on one side and 2 vs 7, 3 vs 6 on the other.
you bring your game every time, you lose you go home. There is nothing "fair" about it...
I think you totally mis-understand the concept of re-seeding. It is done in some playoffs, but not all. For example, it is done in professional baseball, basketball and hockey, but not the NFL.
It is totally objective and based on regular season results. The only change from the current method of state cup would be that, when entering the semi-finals, the highest remaining seed would play the lowest remaining seed and the two middle seeds would play.
Neither method is right, neither method is wrong, but neither method is unfair either. Re-seeding simply better rewards regular season results.
I only mentioned it because reseeding provides a better approach to trying to have the two best teams as finalists, which only matters if the two finalists automatically go to PL. If this is the case, I think you should always reseed the winners each round to improve the possibility that the two best remaining teams will play in the finals.
But if a state committee gets to decide that the 3rd place team better represents the state in PL than the second place team, it doesn't really matter, does it?
I personally would prefer it get re-seeded after the first round and that the two finalists go to PL. That approach provides a more objective method and lets the kids determine the best two teams on the field, not a group in a room.
Last edited by JAK; 05/12/09 05:09 PM.
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Who would have bet on the Giants to win 2 out of 3?? 4 of 7 ect. Sometimes the better team loses a game to a "less better" (not wanting to dis anyone) but in the long run better teams will perform better and thus regular season records might be a better indication of who is a better team when multiple games are played against the same opponents.
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CHT:
CESA boys premier teams from U14-18: 24-9-11
CESA girls premier teams from U14-18: 18-20-6
CUFC boys:8-8-2
CUFC girls: 4-28-1
Bridge boys: 0-9-0
Bridge girls: 1-9-1
This from last season
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Addendum:
CESA Challenge: Two teams boys and girls combined: 0-15-2
DSC: 4-1-1
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First of all lets make it clear.... Number 1 and 2 are automatically in the R3PL unless they cannot play at which point number 3 and so on have first dibs. Recently R3PL has been looking at 12 teams per league which means in a 4 state league the top 3, however they have "recognized" not all number 3s are equal.
A knockout round is used in the olympics and many major tournaments, not everyone can be wrong....
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JAK.... They have no clue what we are talking about. The top seed should always play the lowest seed. The way its fomated now the top 2 remaining seeds (1 & 4)should not be playing each other before the championship. The number 1 seeded team earned the spot and their reward is to play the lowest seeded team until they lose or win the championship. If you want to use the Superbowl as your example, the top seeded teams have a bye week, home field and they play the lowest seeded team until they win the championship or lose, when they lose the next highest seeded team becomes the top seed.This is how the State Cup format should be, if we are going to use seedings to start the tourny. The seeding for the U13 boys Challenge should look like this.
week 1 (05/09/09)
1 vs 8 (1 bet 8)
2 vs 7 (7 bet 2)
3 vs 6 (6 bet 3)
4 vs 5 (4 bet 5)
week 2 (5/16/09)
1 vs 7
4 vs 6
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mustangs,
you are using the NFL as justification,but more sports use a normal tournament format. The NCAA basketball tournament is an example. You could be the 1 seed and face the 8 and 4 seeds, while the 15 (if they beat the 2) could potentially play the 10 and 6 before meeting the 1. Most tournament are set up the way you have it to start, but don't re-align the seedings based on who wins, it is just too time consuming. It also allows for a "cinderella". If the 1 seed is truely the 1 seed then it shouldn't be a problem anyway.
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How do they do it in England? Here is an answer I found
"The league below the English Premier League is called the Coca-Cola Championship. The Championship has 24 teams in the league where 3 go up to the Premier League and 3 go down to League 1. The teams which finish 1st and 2nd go up and so do 1 of the teams in the play offs, which is between 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th."
Not sure who this is worked out in playoffs but I would guess they use a bye week to get to 4 teams and last of 3,4,5,6 standing moves up. (I could be wrong, as my wife often points out to me!)
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Quote:
Just because a 6 or 7 seed makes the final does not require it to take the Premier League spot. Look at the 14 girls from SAA. Last year they made the finals as a lower seed and decided to enter the PL. They only scored one goal and gave up 65 during Premier League play. Looking back, should they have taken the PL spot? Will it be wise for both of the u13 boys and u14 girls finalists to take a PL spot?
I think Loc Dog may be onto something here (it is not often I can say that!) but he has a good point--maybe we as a state should probably ONLY send one team to Premier league play--in the fall we had FIVE of our "second" teams without a win in all of league play.
On the boys side--Cesa 90 Challenge 0-5-1 (2 goals for--20 goals against) and Bridge 92 Gold 0-9-0 (4 for--38 against) but in Bridge 92 defense their team lost some players to the Academy.
On the girls side--CUFC 90 0-11-0 (5 for--42 against); CESA Premier 91 0-10-1 (6 for--43 against); CESA Challenge 93 0-10-1 (4 for--49 against).
And now we are talking about sending a "third" team? Who are we kidding!
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With all thats been said about the seeding. Who is the best team left in the Boys U13 tourny? I know that all three areas of the state is represented.
Last edited by mustangs; 05/12/09 07:43 PM.
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So are you folks saying we should deny a team the opportunity to play premier because they may not win any games? How about the exposure this gives the kids and the opportunity to play against the best teams in the Region. Isn't their any value in exposing the #2 team in the state so they may improve their play?
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Quote:
With all thats been said about the seeding. Who is the best team left in the Boys U13 tourny? I know that all three areas of the state is represented.
My predictions on the boys side for the finals.
U13 - CESA v. Lexington County
U14 - CESA v. MPSC
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Quote:
you are using the NFL as justification,but more sports use a normal tournament format.
Professional baseball, basketball and hockey reseed. College football playoffs (not BCS) reseed.
What are the "more sports" that determine the champion without reseeding. Not a tournament, but the actual league champion. You've named one (NCAA Divison 1A Basketball).
But to make it clear, in terms of determining a state champion, I think reseeding is irrelevant. You beat everyone you play and you are state champion. You don't beat everyone and you shouldn't be state champion.
However, I think for properly determining PL representatives of the state (and to best represent the state), reseeding is important to get the best two representatives. Every team still has an equal chance to earn a PL berth, but that equal chance is determined over the entire season, not just based on the initial seedings.
Last edited by JAK; 05/13/09 02:00 AM.
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Parker,
Did you miss the not all part? Thanks for doing the math..How many CESA teams had winning records? Since you have done the math
Last edited by coldhardtruth; 05/13/09 04:26 AM.
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JAK,
The reality is that instead of reseeding, SC should go to a relegation/promotion system to avoid those "winless" teams. The EPL send their top 4 teams to the champions league. There is not tournament. My arguement is that if you are going to play a tournament, and you are the best team, you will beat everyone anyhow. Use the state cup tournament for Regionals not for RPI3. Use the challenge league standings for that. Then use rel/pro. Don't reseed in stated cup that way if "cinderella" wins they play at the regional finals but NOT RPi3.
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CHT: I'm just Joe Friday giving you the facts.
The 14,16,17, and 18 boys had winning records. The 15 girls had a winning record. Not sure about the 18 girls.
Addendum #2: Spring 2009- Bridge 14 boys 1-10. SAA 14 girls 0-11.
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Hey Joe,
You left out the CESA 14 girls 2-7-2
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That record was included in my first post. More detail: 16 girls 4-5-2. 17 girls 0-9-1.Not sure about the 18 girls. Believe those are correct. More familiar with the boys side.Boys 15 3-5-2 off the top of my head.
Hope that helps.
Last edited by Parker Lewis; 05/13/09 01:51 PM.
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CHT-Cesa had 1 team on the girls side that had a winning record in R3. On the boys side they had 3.
Parker-CESA B U-18 0-5-1
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No wonder they called the TV show "Parker Lewis Can't Lose"
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MPSC: Wrong. 14,16,17,18 boys had winning records. CHT gave me credit for my math skills and I count 4.
See addendum 1. I gave the records for both CESA challenge teams- boys and girls combined.They are called Challenge teams.
Give me a couple of minutes and I'll put sone more numbers forward.
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There are two CESA 18 boys..Premier 4-0-2 and challenge 0-5-1
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Here you go...without hard data, this is just club cheerleading.
Winning Records
> CESA 90 Boys Premier 4-0-2
> CESA 91 Boys Premier 5-2-2
> CESA 92 Boys Premier 7-0-2
> CESA 94 Boys Premier 5-2-4
> CESA 93 Girls Premier 8-1-2
> Total - 29-5-12 63% WP (46 Matches)
> Goals For - 94
> Goals Against - 45
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> CUFC 91 Boys 7-1-1
> Total - 7-1-1 .78% WP (9 Matches)
> Goals For - 24
> Goals Against - 20
>
> DSC 90 Boys 4-1-1
> Total - 4-1-1 .67% WP (6 Matches)
> Goals For - 16
> Goals Against - 5
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> Losing Records
> CESA 90 Girls Premier 4-7-0
> CESA 91 Girls Premier 0-10-1
> CESA 92 Girls Premier 4-5-2
> CESA 94 Girls Premier 2-7-2
> CESA 93 Boys Premier 3-5-1
> Total - 13-34-6 .25% WP (53 Matches)
> Goals For - 42
> Goals Against - 105
>
> CUFC 93 Boys Elite 1-7-1
> CUFC 90 Girls Elite 0-11-0
> CUFC 91 Girls Elite 3-8-0
> CUFC 93 Girls Elite 1-9-1
> Total - 5-35-2 / .12% WP (42 Matches)
> Goals For - 39
> Goals Against - 138
>
> Bridge 92 Boys Gold 0-9-0
> Bridge 93 Girls Gold 1-9-1
> Bridge 94 Boys Gold 1-10-0
> Total - 2-28-1 / .06% WP (31 Matches)
> Goals For - 20
> Goals Against - 101
>
> SAA 94 Girls 0-10-0
> Total - 0-10-0 / 0% WP (10 Matches)
> Goals For - 1
> Goals Against - 65
>
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My mistake....just used to looking at the bottom for the CESA team  Didn't see that they had other team in there.
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Quote:
JAK,
The reality is that instead of reseeding, SC should go to a relegation/promotion system to avoid those "winless" teams. The EPL send their top 4 teams to the champions league. There is not tournament. My arguement is that if you are going to play a tournament, and you are the best team, you will beat everyone anyhow. Use the state cup tournament for Regionals not for RPI3. Use the challenge league standings for that. Then use rel/pro. Don't reseed in stated cup that way if "cinderella" wins they play at the regional finals but NOT RPi3.
SC would get stronger with a promotion/relegation system.
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Bottoms up to you MPSC...
Combined Stats for "The Big Three" as so many like to refer to them as:
CESA Premier Teams: 42-39-18 / WP .42% (99 Matches)
GF: 136 GA: 150
CUFC Elite Teams: 12-36-3 / WP .29% (51 Matches)
GF: 63 GA: 158
Bridge FA Gold Teams: 2-28-1 / WP .06% (33 Matches)
GF: 20 GA: 101
Now, could I have used CESA Challenge teams’ records in this data? Sure. But, that wouldn’t be apples to apples now would it. Not nearly the same as one of these clubs taking their second teams to the award podium for Classic Cup medals.
I am sure some will try and qualify this information a certain way and some will twist this to fit whatever preconceived notions that they have. For me, I would just like to know how anyone could get “The Big Three” out of this information? Suely they are referring to registration numbers. It can’t be fields owned. They can’t be looking at State Cup history or College Signing success. They can’t be looking at head to head results. What they are doing is following one team from the club and calling that team their club. Do other clubs have one or two quality teams? Yes, no question. But, it is ridiculous to throw the club name out there when a large majority of the club can’t get to the finals on a consistent basis, can’t get their top teams in to Premier League, haven’t won head to head on a more consistent basis.
The facts are there. If folks don’t want to see it, then that is a different problem.
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Parker,
Why do you feel the need to defend the most successful club in SC? I can't find where anyone has attacked them..It must be frustrating to be a part of such a successful club and yet you feel the need to put your thumb on others..I think most know what the facts are..Sit back..breathe and enjoy the situation your child is in..
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CHT,
Most likely he is having a problem with all that is going on with US Club and the Academy may lose a few boys.
Parker- want to compare apples to apples? Go back a few years before Bridge boys went Academy. And BOTTOMS UP TO YOU TOO!!
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Quote:
JAK,
The reality is that instead of reseeding, SC should go to a relegation/promotion system to avoid those "winless" teams. The EPL send their top 4 teams to the champions league. There is not tournament. My arguement is that if you are going to play a tournament, and you are the best team, you will beat everyone anyhow. Use the state cup tournament for Regionals not for RPI3. Use the challenge league standings for that. Then use rel/pro. Don't reseed in stated cup that way if "cinderella" wins they play at the regional finals but NOT RPi3.
Actually, that would probably better accomplish what I was trying to get by suggesting re-seeding.
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Well then, I guess we agree!!!
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MPSC: Can you share with us the boys CESA will be losing to United.
You can only mean two teams. The younger Bridge team won SC at 13 and lost in the semis at 14. At 14 they had a very nice PL record.
The older Bridge team. The never won a state title and played in one final.
Are these the apples you're talking about?
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I think we do in theory...But how would it work exactly?
Lower PL record moves down, Challenge league regular season winner moves up each year?
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Quote:
SC would get stronger with a promotion/relegation system.
How? Why?
Not disagreeing or agreeing, just interested in how you arrived at this conclusion.
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Coach
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Maturation: The emotional, psychological and sociological progression that leads a developing individual from "My dad can beat up your dad" to "My kid's club can beat up your kid's club." C'mon, laugh...it's not THAT serious.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Coach, You are correct it is NOT that serious. 
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Quote:
Maturation: The emotional, psychological and sociological progression that leads a developing individual from "My dad can beat up your dad" to "My kid's club can beat up your kid's club."
C'mon, laugh...it's not THAT serious.
Thanks Coach - I love it - Brilliant post.
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Bebe and Coach.Come on here. What do you think these forums are supposed to be. Should we break out in to Kumbaya?
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Never said we should all agree - in fact this would be a boring forum if we did. Simply put - I respect and admire what CESA has done over the years - by the same token I respect and admire what Congaree Rapid have done over the years. They all have their place in the SC Club Soccer Eco-system. Just realize not everyone thinks like you, has a kid with the same goals as you, lives in a geographic area that affords their kids the same opportunities nor have the same economic status. Learn to appreciate that by far the vast majority of the clubs in this state want to promote the beautiful game and go about doing it in the way they think best. They are human and they do make mistakes along the way. We may not always agree nor like their way but maybe they have their reasons we may never understand.
Now the SCHSL is a different story all together. Ha!
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Quote:
Quote:
SC would get stronger with a promotion/relegation system.
How? Why?
Not disagreeing or agreeing, just interested in how you arrived at this conclusion.
I personally don't think it would raise the level of soccer, but it would ensure that the top 2-3 teams always represent the state in PL, so it would improve the perception of SC soccer.
The only down side would be if there were two obviously dominant teams that would be the best PL representatives. With promotion/relegation, you would only have your best foot forward every other year.
So maybe reseeding is better
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Coach
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Bebe and Coach.Come on here. What do you think these forums are supposed to be. Should we break out in to Kumbaya?
What, you mean stop taking potshots at each other, avoid negativity towards competitors, support progress and love for the game wherever it takes place, and actually have enough regard for each other to move toward common goals instead of tearing each other down for individual glory?
Pshaw. Rubbish. What could THAT possibly accomplish?
(Could someone pass the marshmallows, please?)
I've got good news and bad news...
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How do other states pick their representatives?
From straight league play?
End of season playoffs? If so do they reseed?
Seems reseeding makes more sense to get the best teams there.
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Coach,
I bet you can't play dodgeball at Berkeley can you. I like competition,so you can go play the Buddah somewhere else.
You're a nice guy from what I can tell and you care about your players, but you obviously don't want any part of the uglier side of soccer and it is there. That's cool but I don't need your enlightened musings . We're in two different soccer worlds. I don't see how CESA is slowing the progress of the game down any the way they are doing it. You can have my marhmallows.
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I like dodgeball. I like competition. I also like respecting my competitors off the field while doing my best to kick their butts and keep ours from getting kicked while on it. There's a sideline for a reason...you leave the competition on the field side and act like colleagues/fellow athletes on the other side. The "uglier side of soccer" isn't really soccer at all...it's the people on the periphery who can't model on the sideline the sportsmanship we expect on the field. I don't think CESA is slowing the progress of the game at all, for the record...they are doing great things for soccer...as are many other clubs. CESA isn't the problem...people trying to tear down the competition instead of make it better so they have more of a challenge to rise to...that's the problem.
Now then, if you really want to invoke my competitive side, here it is...if my "enlightened musings" offend you so much, tough. Deal with it. I don't write for your benefit, and my choices of what to say and where to say it don't revolve around your personal tastes. I'll play Buddah right here from time to time, if that's what you want to call it. If you don't need it, you can either ignore it, take your ball and go home, or come try to move me.
Berkeley High School.
406 West Main St. in Moncks Corner.
Let me know when you're coming...we'll set up a dodgeball game. But for someone who claims to like competition, you seem awfully quick to tell anyone who challenges you to go away and leave you alone.
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Now you went and done it...Ticked off the coach..
Back on the net and ready to watch Parker beat on his chest while yelling We're the Best..
Last edited by coldhardtruth; 05/14/09 04:28 AM.
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More bemused than ticked, CHT. I just wonder if that kind of posturing actually works at home.
I've got good news and bad news...
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The apple does not fall far from the tree..Probably does work there..Someone's nurturing it..
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Coach
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Just wondering what a dodgeball game must look like when nobody else is allowed to throw a ball for fear of disturbing someone's sensibilities.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Don't be to hard on him..He's exhausted..He spent the whole day defending the evil empire
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Coach
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...which, of course, isn't really evil at all except as portrayed by some of its biggest proponents.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Well, well, well. I've stirred some anger from Coach Chass and have brought out the John Galt in him. Using dodgeball as a metaphor for a fistfight is utterly fantastic, and I like that side of you, but I don't get down to the backwater of Moncks Corner that much.
I'm confused though. If you don't write for my benefit who pray tell have your past posts been about. I don't recall initiating your name in anything I've written, but I do appreciate the attention you've given me.
Now to your musings. First off, you are talking to the wrong people on this board to lead a crusade. If you want to purify the game of soccer you need to start in your own backyard. Instead of challenging me to a game of "dodgeball," where were your posts about the ugly side of soccer with regards to Clark Brisson. That's who you should go after and his supporters. If you want to purify the game, play Geraldo and dig in to the ODP that's posted on this thread about pushing ODP players to certain clubs. Your efforts are misguided coach. I can'teffect change, so you need to turn to things where you can change them.
CHT: Why don't you tell your boy to breathe. Looking for fistacuffs and all.
Last edited by Parker Lewis; 05/14/09 12:03 PM.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
SC would get stronger with a promotion/relegation system.
How? Why?
Not disagreeing or agreeing, just interested in how you arrived at this conclusion.
I personally don't think it would raise the level of soccer, but it would ensure that the top 2-3 teams always represent the state in PL, so it would improve the perception of SC soccer.
The only down side would be if there were two obviously dominant teams that would be the best PL representatives. With promotion/relegation, you would only have your best foot forward every other year.
So maybe reseeding is better
The simple reason it WILL make SC soccer stronger more kids will play the right level of competition. More uniform pressure to perform, not playing up and losing every match.
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Another fun filled day of defending the empire is among us..I thought you might take the day off or maybe just tell on us..
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Today is Thursday. Look at the above post and show me where I mention CESA.
Say what you mean. Explain what you mean when you say "tell on us." Who is us and what am I telling on. Please clarify and I'd love to answer your question.
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PH - Perhaps unknowingly you have only painted one side of the picture - so I ask you, which is your ideal method of development? Playing up and losing every match or staying down and winning every match?
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kick off
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WoW,
I like the new name. Kind of thug like. Are you and Loc Dog in a Posse?
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Quote:
PH - Perhaps unknowingly you have only painted one side of the picture - so I ask you, which is your ideal method of development? Playing up and losing every match or staying down and winning every match?
Neither... both are poor
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To finish my answer that is why it is called a promotion/relegation system
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BS. I'm glad you liked it. It was that or Gordan Gecko. That's how i'm being painted so i decided to come proper.You picked it up to. I thought somebody would get on here and tell me it was spelled wrong.
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kick off
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Greenville is not the only place that speaks Ebonics.
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Makaveli,
You don't have to mention it..It's always in your thoughts..You just wait for the chance to use it..so go ahead..I've got nothing but time..Us would be anyone that does not see things your way..Joe..
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PH - Per your philosophy can we then expect to see the 94 Girls Hurricanes representing your club (USA) in the Challenge League this fall?
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CHT: I remember some of your posts and you have an agenda too, so don't play the innocent on here.
I'm out. Busy the rest of the day. I'll catch up with you tomorrow.
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Quote:
PH - Per your philosophy can we then expect to see the 94 Girls Hurricanes representing your club (USA) in the Challenge League this fall?
I would like to see them do so... One of their key players, a two time ODP player, is going to forget her roots, and go to CESA. Why not, she developed an ODP quality game at USA. 
However a U13 ODP player will probably take her place. 
It is up to the parents... and coach...
And since I talk about my philosphy on here, that opinion will not affect their decision.
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makaveli, so your new monaker IS a nod to tupac, huh? i figured there was no way, had to be the other, and laughed at the thought. but now you say otherwise - although the man did appear to strive for equality on many different levels (which would NOT be what you are about) he was also known for his many conflicts within the industry (which, apparently, you ARE about) but...he was also a convicted sex offender (i'm really not sure what to make of that).
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Wait..don't leave..I can't wait to hear what my agenda is. Did you look thru all 1052? I'm flattered..Maybe we can stop hi-jacking this thread..It has been three and a half years of posts so my agenda might have changed over time..You work on it and let me know what it is today
Last edited by coldhardtruth; 05/14/09 02:25 PM.
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Fisticuffs? Who mentioned fisticuffs? I don't think I mentioned a fistfight any more than I mentioned your name at all in any posts. If you happen to see yourself in any of my "musings" then perhaps it's the mirror, not the writer. You said you didn't think we could play dodgeball down here...I invited you down for a match. Maybe you should leave the metaphoric interpretations for the professionals--unless you're progressing from "my kid's club can beat up your kid's club" to "MOOOOOM! The mean man threatened to hit me!" Again, relax. It's STILL not that serious.
I've got good news and bad news...
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brace
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Can someone pass me more popcorn! I have almost run out and do not want to miss the rest of this movie!!  Makes an upstater feel good to see that we our not the only ones with disfunctional girls soccer clubs family to work with (CSSC,Dis,UPSC and all the Charlotte clubs too!!!). I guess we just keep the bad talk to a whisper, well at least on here! 
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Wow....this is getting way out of hand....it is game to be played by young adults who will earn respect from all who play the beautiful game. 
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I'm looking forward to this weekend so we can post state cup results and get this thread back on track.
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Any predictions for this weekends games?
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Quote:
Wow....this is getting way out of hand....it is game to be played by young adults who will earn respect from all who play the beautiful game.
Well said! That's the soccer world I want to live in.
I've got good news and bad news...
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I'm back.
Predictions: CESA will... oh never mind.
CHT: I don't need to go back to your posts. You said you were concerned about your kid and giving her the best option.Same here.
Chass: I'm glad you're back on the enlightened path. I will admit I took great pleasure in watching you stoop to my level- I know you feel bad about it so turn to the east and you'll be fine.
You missed my point about dodgeball. Read Rick Reilly and his article protesting the fact that some schools are banning volleyball because it hurts the losers. I know that you are a "professional," so I assumed you would pick that up. My mistake.
Belligerent: Pac was complex and it was "him against the world" so I'm out of this. I can't extend myself to fight on two different fronts with Chass and CHT and I'm bored with this.
Peace out.
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Quote:
Chass: I'm glad you're back on the enlightened path. I will admit I took great pleasure in watching you stoop to my level- I know you feel bad about it so turn to the east and you'll be fine.
You missed my point about dodgeball. Read Rick Reilly and his article protesting the fact that some schools are banning volleyball because it hurts the losers. I know that you are a "professional," so I assumed you would pick that up. My mistake.
I knew my back must have been sore for a reason...I'm getting too old to stoop like that. I didn't miss the point at all...I think you missed the point of the response. That's ok. First rule of competition is that in order to win, you have to be willing to accept the possibility of losing...that's competition. But that's ON the field/court. Don't know where you got the fistfight thing from.
I think you also missed the idea that the comments about modeling sportsmanship weren't directed at you...they were directed at whoever they fit. No need to call names...people know when the shoe fits, as you so aptly demonstrated--just don't assume that it was a personal attack.
Hey, we kick rocks around here for fun...no worries about a silly little dodgeball.
I've got good news and bad news...
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MPSC#1, i definitely think you're on the right track about parker/mak - he's been ramping up his attacks on other clubs since the academy tryouts. can't be a coincidence. mak's worried. starting to act like a cornered rat.
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kick off
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Man all we need are the Four Horseman and Hulk Hogan .....
On the Prediction for this weekend U13 boys CUFC over CESA
and Lexington over DISA.
CUFC winning it all. (Cage match)LOL
Last edited by mustangs; 05/14/09 08:20 PM.
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Good luck to all the teams this weekend..Play your hearts out and leave it all on the field..
Something to chew on..
" If I were to wish for anything,I should not wish for wealth or power,but for the passionate sense of potential-for the eye which,ever young and ardent,sees the possible"
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to follow CHT,
"Never tell a young person that anything cannot be done. God may have been waiting centuries for someone ignorant enough of the impossible to do that very thing."
"You really don't know what your true potential is until you've pushed yourself beyond your limits. You have to fail a couple of times to really find how far you can go."
Leave it on the field folks...
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U 13 Boys
DISA over LCSC
CESA over CUFC
U14 Boys
MPSC over BFA
CESA over everyone
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Quote:
How do they do it in England? Here is an answer I found
"The league below the English Premier League is called the Coca-Cola Championship. The Championship has 24 teams in the league where 3 go up to the Premier League and 3 go down to League 1. The teams which finish 1st and 2nd go up and so do 1 of the teams in the play offs, which is between 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th."
Not sure who this is worked out in playoffs but I would guess they use a bye week to get to 4 teams and last of 3,4,5,6 standing moves up. (I could be wrong, as my wife often points out to me!)
Chief, great observation there.Not quite sure any other system would work right for soccer wherever one is located on planet earth other than the promotion/relegation system for extremely competative leagues.
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Quote:
Good luck to all the teams this weekend..Play your hearts out and leave it all on the field..
Something to chew on..
" If I were to wish for anything,I should not wish for wealth or power,but for the passionate sense of potential-for the eye which,ever young and ardent,sees the possible"
Very intelligent quote CHT.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
SC would get stronger with a promotion/relegation system.
How? Why?
Not disagreeing or agreeing, just interested in how you arrived at this conclusion.
I personally don't think it would raise the level of soccer, but it would ensure that the top 2-3 teams always represent the state in PL, so it would improve the perception of SC soccer.
The only down side would be if there were two obviously dominant teams that would be the best PL representatives. With promotion/relegation, you would only have your best foot forward every other year.
So maybe reseeding is better
The simple reason it WILL make SC soccer stronger more kids will play the right level of competition. More uniform pressure to perform, not playing up and losing every match.
Unless you have been bred or played through the promotion/relegation system you might never quite know it's benefits. Simply put it cuts out alot of the nonsense we keep seeing on this board and churns out real soccer players.
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Kickoff
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Saturday Scores
U13 Boys
LCSC United 95 Boys White 1
DISA Lightning 2
CESA 95B Premier 4
Columbia United 95 Boys Elite 0
U14 Boys
MPSC 94 Elite 3
Bridge 94 Gold 2
CESA 94 Boys Premier 3
Columbia United 94 Elite Boys 1
U13 Girls
Columbia United 95 Elite 2
MPSC 96 Elite 1
CESA 95 Premier 1
LCSC 95 G 0
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Goal
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U13 Boys
DISA was up 1-0 and gave up a goal on a corner kick with less than a minute to go. DISA scored in the first OT and held on for the win.
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U-14 Boys:
CESA 94 Premier - 2
MPSC 94 Elite - 0
Good game - better team won the day.
Both advance to R3PL.
Bridge FA lost third place to CUFC in PKs. Way to go CUFC!
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CESA Claims 3 SCYSA Publix State Challenge Cup Championships
The CESA 94 Boys Premier and CESA 94 Girls Premier teams booked their tickets to the upcoming Southern Regional Championships in Dallas, Texas with convincing victories in the finals. The 94 Boys defeated MPSC 2-0 on the strength of goals by Austen Burnikel and Erik Clark. They won their Saturday semi final 3-1 against Columbia United Elite. The 94 Boys also qualified for a berth in the Region III Premier league East for the Fall 09 season.
The CESA 94 Girls Premier finished the season with a 5-0 win against Carolina FC. CESA jumped out to an early lead with goals from Martina Trenholm, Meaghan Carrigan and Mollie Waters. Second half goals from Kia Mattison and Chelsea Drennan made for a comfortable finals win.
The CESA 94 Girls Challenge team capped off a tremendous season by capturing third place after a hard fought 3-1 win over the SC Bulls Red.
In the Under 13 age bracket both the CESA 95 Girls and Boys Premier teams gained automatic berths in the Spring 2010 Region III Premier League East after semi final wins on Saturday. The 95 Girls defeated Lexington 1-0 and the 95 Boys cruised to a 4-0 win against Columbia United Elite.
The 95 Girls Premier were beaten 3-1 by Columbia United Elite in the final, while the 95 Boys won 2-1 in a thrilling match against Daniel Island. CESA fell behind 1-0 and rallied in the 2nd half behind an unstoppable bending free kick from Austin Rackley which evened the match. Grayson Raynor scored the game winner after racing in to head the ball over the Daniel Island goalkeeper.
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Just to stir the pot..... Cup championship totals by Club from the SCYSA Website..... u-9 rec to Challenge
CESA 4
CUFC 4
JIYSC 4
MPSC 2
LCSC 2
FYSC 1
FSSG 1
UPFC 1
CASA 1
FSA 1
SAFC 1
CFC 1
LTSC 1
UUSC 1
Don't care that MPSC and CESA do not play rec and academy!!
Clinton
JIYSC 98 Luna-Chicks
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Go James Island!! No SSC? The times are definitely changing..Good for some..bad for others!!
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Quote:
Just to stir the pot..... Cup championship totals by Club from the SCYSA Website..... u-9 rec to Challenge
Don't care that MPSC and CESA do not play rec and academy!!
Clinton
JIYSC 98 Luna-Chicks
Comments like this justifies a club's decision not to play Rec. & Academy 'State Cups'!!
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Luna,
Nor sure where you get 4 for CESA. Don't know how many rec or presidents cup won but they won 8 of the 12 challenge titles. Does that give them 9?
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http://scysa.demosphere.com/index.htmlLink to the site. RECCOS just answering the question before it is asked...... Reason for MPSC and CESA not having more No need to get offended. Clinton JIYSC 98 Luna-Chicks
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Bemused maybe, but certainly not offended!
Why anyone would place so much emphasis on winning a so-called 'State Championship' at U9-U12 is beyond me.
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CESA won 8 of the 12 State Championships in the Challenge league.Each of those teams will be in the Premier league next year and 7 of those 8 will be at Regionals this year.You need to check the site again.
I think it's great that JIYS has done well at this level and hope this carries in to their more competitive years. The reason you don't see more CESA here is that their priority is at the academy level, not on winning U12 cups.
The last point deals with this idea that CESA only recruits players but does not develop them. This has been mentioned several times on this board.If that were the case though how does one account for all the success that CESA has had at state cups at the U13 level. If memory serves I believe that the only 13 challenge teams that did not win were 2. One was this year and the other was when CESA 93 girls played up out of their age group.
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Luna - Not sure why you think there are no rec players or Academy players from Mt. Pleasant. MPRD produces recreation teams which compete in Mt. Pleasant and ultimatly locally and state level once All Star eliminations are sorted. MPSC produces academy, elite and premier teams which compete, locally, statewide, regionally and soon nationally.
The Mt P club and town work very closely together to produce teams with the level of play for those with different abilities and commitment to the game. From what I have seen - they do a pretty good job and are certainly on the upswing.
Much sucess to JI and the fine folks over there.
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I think Luna was referring to the fact that no MPSC and CESA Developmental or Academy teams participate in State Cup. I think Luna would have to concede the State Cup tallies would be different if MPSC and CESA did support State Cup at younger ages. To just dismiss it as "I don't care" doesn't make sense and is a little flippant(maybe not the right word).
Especially on CESA's side, the numbers are just huge at those younger levels.
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reccos, why does cesa (or anyone for that matter) change their emphasis on winning state championships starting at u13?
other than what scysa makes of it, what is the significance of that age?
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Quote:
Just to stir the pot..... Cup championship totals by Club from the SCYSA Website..... u-9 rec to Challenge
Don't care that MPSC and CESA do not play rec and academy!!
Clinton
JIYSC 98 Luna-Chicks
Get over yourself Clinton. You have developed a very good girls soccer team. However, you have refused to and told others that you do not need any additional girls on your team . Careful what you say before you turn too many people away. 
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Bell,
Wow. Ummm,maybe it's because at U13 you qualify for R3PL. That one just kind of jumped out at me or is that not significant enough for you
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nope, not significant for me. was just asking.
so, cesa decided that u13 is the appropriate age for an emphasis on state championships because someone created a league they were interested in competing in?
oh, wait...who was it that created that league?
hmmmm....yep...it all makes sense now...
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so, it has nothing to do with any development issues or limitations at those ages? u13 becomes important to cesa only because they can then win "real" state cups? (vs the "so-called state cups" at younger ages)
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I think championships matter to those involved no matter what the age group is..Everyone likes to win..even rec.
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Heads up? I just picked up an 11th player and now we are searching for a 12th. How many players should I have on my 8v8 u-11 team? We played with 10 players at 6v6, so I am a little confused about the "we don't need any more players." Please explain. I have coached 1/2 the team since u-5 and the rest since u-8 without losing a single player to another club or team......... There is something to be said for a group of girls that is having as much fun with the game as ours!
Others:
Yes the "Don't Care" was a little strong... State Cup 12 and under would have been more competitive if MPSC and CESA would have played their Rec and Academy teams. Since many of us like to count, I was just showing the numbers.
Clinton
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thanks parker/mak dude.
but seriously...why is "development" so important to cesa BEFORE u13, but then bang-pow, (or whatever noise a just-turned-13-yr-old makes) you hit u13 and it's not about development anymore? now, all of a sudden, it’s all about winning state championships.
you and reccos (can’t leave out my peep loc dog) spend your time on here belittling people who don’t conform to the cesa plan, and you get really pi$$ed off when people refuse to answer your "easy" questions, but when anyone asks YOU questions you don’t like, you either disappear for days, or tell them they’re hilarious.
c'mon, you talk the talk...you're hammering people because they place too much emphasis on pre-u13 state cups, but then, immediately upon hitting that age, now state championships are "all-important." why? you just inferred it – is it all about winning now?
do you even know why cesa chooses to do the things they do, or do you just follow blindly and tell everyone else they're wrong?
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If you look back on this thread the point I initially made was that CESA won 9 and not 4 state cups. The question you asked was what was significant about U13 and I gave you one example. The other post I put on here recently was about Matt Brophy going to SCU. You then said I fell and bumped my head.Is this hammering people?
The fact of the matter is that you do not like CESA. You'll play innocent but with each post you take some kind of swat at the club, just like this rhtoric. If the most successful club in the history of South Carolina wants to do things this way then they have the right.
I'm not sure what this is about. Every other club in South Carolina puts U13's in state cup. The decision was made years ago by USYSA to not have 11 aside cup games and move them back to U13. Everyone does this, not just CESA.
I guess that means you have questions about CESA not putting their academy teams in these younger events. I think you answered the question - those are key developmemtal years where results don't matter. At some point results do matter and U13 is where the country begins. I can't answer anything else. Go ask ask Bridge, South Carolna United, MPSC, CASL,Texans, etc why they do it this way. Maybe they can give you better answers. That's all I can tell you.
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why the move to cufc for Matt B? did he take a hs coaching gig in the cola area?
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The decision was made by CESA a few years back to not play the younger State Cup ages, and they got MPSC to follow along (imagine that).
One theory is, it's easy to charge parents money when there is no measuring stick of success. This way you have more younger teams ($$$) to support the higher cost of coaching the older teams. Really the Academy teams are money makers for the rest of the club. This is all done under "development".
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a2, you don't have a clue. must have been a dream. u should stop hanging w/belli.
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Take the time to read the literature and attend the appropriate National Youth Licenses courses and you will find out why it is not appropriate for players below 11 to play in State Cup events. This material is gathered from youth and sports psychologists, but what do they know....looks like you all have it figured out
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parker/mak - NO NO NO....for the record (and i have specifically mentioned this before) i do not dislike cesa. have nothing against them. for the most part, i have nothing but respect for what they've done. i am all for increasing the level of soccer in this state as a WHOLE. obviously, cesa has done more than their share of this.
what i do dislike are people who get on here and preach of the infallibility of cesa; and that if you aren't doing it "our" way (read: the cesa way), then you are doing it the "wrong" way.
loc dog has made it very clear he cares nothing about anybody in the rest of the state - he is all about cesa. THAT is the kind of attitude i have a problem with.
just recently, reccos hammered people for talking about winning "so-called 'State Championship' at U9-U12" but then he turned around and cited cesa's accomplishments from u13 on. all i did was ask why the change at u13? what's so important about that age? he responded that that is the age you qualify for r3pl. so, logically (in my mind, at least), the question is why do you go from not caring about winning "pre-u13" to all of a sudden caring about winning? like i said, it seemed like a logical progression of questions. and, i am NOT questioning why cesa does any of this - and you jumped in the middle, so i am questioning what yours and reccos' interpretation of this is. please read this again so you understand what i am and am not saying.
when you said "Matt Brophy had been a coach at CESA for many years. Looks like a good move for him as it appears he has better teams that [sic] when at CESA..." you are correct, you were NOT hammering anyone - i figured you must have bumped your head because you seemed to suggest the guy made the smart choice by leaving cesa. i mean, things that make sense are what they are, but that has never stopped you from arguing against, prior to now. i have never seen you post anything to imply that cesa was not the best at everything they've ever done. so, for you to suggest that this guy leaving cesa to coach elsewhere was a smart move - well, that is difficult for me to grasp.
to repeat, and for clarification purposes, i am NOT against cesa. i AM against the self-righteous and the haters of the world.
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My two cents on the magic of U13/R3PL.
Until you have played in the PL, it is hard to understand the level of competition it provides on a constant basis. Having to go out there and battle at that level every week IS about development. I would put out there that, for top players, it is the best way they can develop.
There is a caveat. Much like a sport such as tennis, if you are playing against a player so much better than you that you cannot return a ball, you won't get better. But if you can be competitive, not win, but compete each and every game, there is no doubt in my mind that the players in PL improve, develop and learn the physical, mental and technical skill required to compete at a top level.
Prior to the availability of PL, some clubs decide that playing for championships adds value while others don't. I don't think either is right or wrong. But, at least to me, once PL is available, striving to play and compete at that level should be the main goal of any top team.
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Belli - Before I say anything derogatory towards you regarding your ability to communicate I am going to give you an opportunity to go back and read this thread.
Your goal; Find comments of mine where I cited the accomplishments of CESA from u13 on.
While you are at it, you may want to point out to me where I 'hammered people'.
I am waiting.
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jak, i agree completely regarding your comments on competition, but in addition to pl, now there is also the u.s. soccer development academy.
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Quotes:
"Comments like this justifies a club's decision not to play Rec. & Academy 'State Cups'!!"
"Why anyone would place so much emphasis on winning a so-called 'State Championship' at U9-U12 is beyond me."
so, maybe "hammer" was a little strong
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Reccos
You beat me to it.I was the one that brought up the 13s and the reason I did that was because I was trying to show that despite CESA not putting their players in U9-12 cups that their success at the U13 level showed that development was taking place. I said this because I knew that someone like arsenal 2 would post something like this, which by the way has to be one of the dumber pots I have ever seen on this board.This type of attitude bugs me. CESA only wins because they recruit- look at the younger ages- CESA only wants the academy players for money. Come on.
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reccos, sorry if i attributed anything to you incorrectly. when you, parker/mak, loc dog and others get going, all your posts start to sound alike. my bad - i've never had an issue admitting when i was wrong. you heard it here first (just don't tell my wife - she'll want the same)
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and parker/mak, i don't believe I'VE said anything about money or recruiting (not saying you were saying i was - just wanted to throw that out there)
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never said you did but you know that attitude is out there.
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Quote:
jak, i agree completely regarding your comments on competition, but in addition to pl, now there is also the u.s. soccer development academy.
I understand, but that is an unknown to me, at least for now.
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Does CESA recruit or do the parents look for their child, I don't know many 13 year olds that drive themselves to practice.
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Not so sure why my previous post was so bad.
Academy teams are money makers for the clubs. More kids playing Academy = more fees.
MPSC and CESA decided at the same time to not support the younger State Cups. It was right after MPSC adopted their Academy program,which CESA started in SC. Spring 2006 there were CESA and MPSC teams playing younger State Cups, Spring 2007 there were none. CESA and MPSC are only SC clubs participating in Adidas Academy Festival every spring which originated in Spring 2006.
How does CESA fund itself and pay it's coaches? Certainly not with Rec. teams at younger ages. I'm sure Pearce and Andrew don't donate their time. I never said they only want Academy for the money, it's a big part of it. There is a lot more money coming into their club with Academy than without.
Like it or not it's simply a business model.
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I see no problem with your posts..Clubs make money off most programs they offer..If not how long would they survive?
No paying parents..No club..seems simple to me
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Take the time to read the literature and attend the appropriate National Youth Licenses courses and you will find out why it is not appropriate for players below 11 to play in State Cup events. This material is gathered from youth and sports psychologists, but what do they know....looks like you all have it figured out
Alittle moved here Andy,you really believe we should vest the direction of youth soccer development MAJORLY on youth and sports Phsychologists?I think i would rather have an experienced soccer player make a developmental decision other than a "sports psychologist" no matter how many of these psychologists sit around a table. They (sports psychologists) can be a part of the process but not a major determining factor. As for state cup level of competition,i guess everyone has to make / take a decision that benefits their system so it is kinda tough to point fingers,however still don't see why state would just be emphasised starting at U13.
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Does CESA recruit or do the parents look for their child, I don't know many 13 year olds that drive themselves to practice.
I know many parents who have decided to look into their child playing for CESA simply so they could play and be competitive in PL. I couldn't quote numbers, and I wouldn't want to suggest recruiting doesn't happen (by every club), but the majority of the cases I know of where initiated by the parent to better the development of their child through competitive PL play.
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Luna - I have some thoughts check your PM
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Cesa is all about winning state even more than development, that why players only have to attend one practice per week if they live outside the Greenville araea. I believe they think talent will prevail over teamwork which is a shame.
Can't say it has not worked for them in most cases.
Drink the CESA Kool Aid.
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Cesa is all about winning state even more than development, that why players only have to attend one practice per week if they live outside the Greenville araea.
The error of your thinking is that you assume development occurs more at practice than at games and that teamwork happens from practicing together, not a player mindset.
As the kids get older, a HUGE part of their development comes from playing in the R3PL games. At least that is the case if you are competitive. As I noted elsewhere, if you can't compete in the games, then it probably does more harm than good.
I have also seen players who attend one practice a week who play a great team game while others are at every practice and don't have a clue about teamwork. It's more about the players personality than the number of days they are at practice.
Would it be better if the entire team could be at every practice? Of course. But does it mean the club is not interested in development? I would disagree.
Last edited by JAK; 05/22/09 02:08 AM.
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Arse ... Close but no cigar! Actually, kudos for getting so close. But yet, you still miss the point. Just broaden your outlook and you might hit the target!!
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Quote:
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Cesa is all about winning state even more than development, that why players only have to attend one practice per week if they live outside the Greenville araea.
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The error of your thinking is that you assume development occurs more at practice than at games and that teamwork happens from practicing together, not a player mindset.
As the kids get older, a HUGE part of their development comes from playing in the R3PL games. At least that is the case if you are competitive. As I noted elsewhere, if you can't compete in the games, then it probably does more harm than good.
JAK,interesting points you made above. Would be compelled to say that a combination of (if possible..more than one practice session a week) for team practices and exposure at the above named games would be more viable and development oriented than one session and several R3PL games.
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As the kids get older, a HUGE part of their development comes from playing in the R3PL games. At least that is the case if you are competitive. As I noted elsewhere, if you can't compete in the games, then it probably does more harm than good.
You just might wanna revise the above statement abit because if the proper development methods were being used,the scenario you stated above would be very unlikely.
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I have also seen players who attend one practice a week who play a great team game while others are at every practice and don't have a clue about teamwork. It's more about the players personality than the number of days they are at practice.
It is abit hard to iron out the above as it draws several aspects of development but summarily stated,real progressional soccer development=Practice AS A TEAM(the more practices the better)+ Involvement in competative leagues/tournaments.
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Would it be better if the entire team could be at every practice? Of course. But does it mean the club is not interested in development? I would disagree.
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JAK, did you really say the following: "The error of your thinking is that you assume development occurs more at practice than at games and that teamwork happens from practicing together, not a player mindset."
were you being serious? you are suggesting that thinking "that teamwork happens from practicing together" is "NOT a player mindset"? what player or players are telling you this?
NOTHING can replace practice. sure, players improve by competing and challenging themselves in high-level games, but that does not make up for practice.
"I have also seen players who attend one practice a week who play a great team game while others are at every practice and don't have a clue about teamwork." well, sure, that just shows the difference in the skill levels of those players. there are plenty of really good players who can just show up for games and still do better than most of their team...but that can only go on for so long. eventually, others will catch up to him, and the lack of time spent with his team will show.
do you think professional players have gotten so good at that point in their lives that they don't need to practice? that they can just show up and play, as long as they "are competitive"?
teamwork comes from time spent playing together....period.
any player who practices with his team only once a week, while the rest of the team practices together three or more times a week, but thinks that one day with them is sufficient, or that he can make up for the lack of practicing with them with personal training is disillusioned. He is cheating not only his team, but his teammates.
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Quote:
JAK, did you really say the following: "The error of your thinking is that you assume development occurs more at practice than at games and that teamwork happens from practicing together, not a player mindset."
were you being serious? you are suggesting that thinking "that teamwork happens from practicing together" is "NOT a player mindset"? what player or players are telling you this?
NOTHING can replace practice. sure, players improve by competing and challenging themselves in high-level games, but that does not make up for practice.
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"I have also seen players who attend one practice a week who play a great team game while others are at every practice and don't have a clue about teamwork." well, sure, that just shows the difference in the skill levels of those players. there are plenty of really good players who can just show up for games and still do better than most of their team...but that can only go on for so long. eventually, others will catch up to him, and the lack of time spent with his team will show.
I have to second you on that one Bell,you are definately right,it does catch up with them.Dissecting that point to the most likely imediate level of play after club ball...college ball,a good number usually end up quitting soccer after the first semester or two despite being all tournament e.t.c at club level and the only ones left wondering what happened besides the player are really the parents questioning how this could have come about.Meanwhile at that time,not only will there not be worthwhile answers from the previous game tutors (if you even get any response) but forums like this don't quite exist.Witnessed several cases in the day. Said it before, everybody has got a choice in all this but just don't be suprised.Of course best wishes to all the lads that they successfully make it to through that level.
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I stand completely by my statements (as made and intended, not as bastardized).
Of course practice is required and an important part of development at every level. I never said it wasn't.
My point was two-fold:
1. Development comes from both practice and playing and, depending on the players current level and the quality of options in the area, some kids will develop more by practicing with the entire team out of town once a week and also playing games at a very high level than practicing 3-4 times a week and playing at a lower level. It totally depends on the child, their current level and what is available as an alternative. Life isn't black and white. There is a lot of grey. Using an analogy, putting a math genius (highly skilled player) into math 101 (i.e. practice on a lower level team) everyday will not help them develop their math skills more than putting them into a job (i.e. game) where on weekends they are totally challenged. The best way for them to develop depends on a lot of factors, not just how many days a week they practice.
2. Some people are team players while some people are not. And I have personally witnessed players who only practice once a week with their team be the best team players while I've seen players who practice with their team every day not be good team players.
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>> JAK,interesting points you made above. Would be compelled to say that a combination of (if possible..more than one practice session a week) for team practices and exposure at the above named games would be more viable and development oriented than one session and several R3PL games.<<
Yes, it is better to practice three times and play at a high level than practice once and play at a high level. As I said above, I think it is a case-by-case situation and there are more factors than just how many days of practice.
>>You just might wanna revise the above statement abit because if the proper development methods were being used,the scenario you stated above would be very unlikely.<<
I won't revise it, but I do know what you are saying. From what I've seen, playing at that high level is a very, very important development aspect. Practice just never truly simulates a highly skilled opponent wanted to beat you and a large part of development at the higher level comes from learning to play faster and stronger against those determined and skilled players.
>> It is abit hard to iron out the above as it draws several aspects of development but summarily stated,real progressional soccer development=Practice AS A TEAM(the more practices the better)+ Involvement in competative leagues/tournaments.<<
Of course that is best if available. But it isn't always available. Sometimes you have to travel outside your area to get the competative leagues and my point is that the number of days of practice is not the sole factor to consider.
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I think the saying goes "Practice Makes Perfect", not Driving to Greenville.
Its kind of funny that the best athletes in the world are fined if they miss preseason or spring training and we are even discussing how a teenagers motivation will make them better player.
If you are happy with your decision then that is all that matters, but you cant justify with doubletalk.
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a few years ago, i heard what i believe to be a better and more appropriate saying:
Perfect Practice Makes Perfect
because if you're practicing something the "wrong" way, it will only hurt you.
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I have decided to let my children stay home and skip practice. I have ordered all the FIFA Playstation games instead. They Really, Really, Really want to play and win so they should be on MLS by next month.
Suckers.
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ok, jak, maybe i just need some clarification from you....why would a "highly skilled" player be on a team that plays at a lower level? and if he was on the team just so he could play in a more competitive league - but his teammates are at a lower level - how did that team make it into the more competitive league in the first place?
i do agree, though, that much of this is a grey area.
i will even agree with some of your statements as written. the only reason i "bastardized" them is because they didn't seem very realistic (to me, at least).
do you know of any cases in this state where a player is that much better than his teammates that driving some distance to practice is not really worth his time?
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Quote:
I have decided to let my children stay home and skip practice. I have ordered all the FIFA Playstation games instead. They Really, Really, Really want to play and win so they should be on MLS by next month.
Suckers.
My recommendation is wii FIFA 09. Since my son has spent hours throwing his arms around in wild excitement, his throw in has got remarkably longer.
It works!!! 
satus quod perago validus - start and finish strong
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Close but no cigar! But yet, you still miss the point. Just broaden your outlook and you might hit the target!!
I know how you feel.
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jak, you left off the "arse" part...
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Bell.
The situation I thought I was originally discussing (maybe I was wrong about this), is the situation where people decide they would prefer not to play locally but, instead, only practice with a team once a week so their child can compete in R3PL (or equivalent) instead of playing in the state league.
If the player has the ability to make and play a significant amount of time on that R3PL team, I think there is a good chance they will develop more by practicing with the team once a week and also playing games at that higher level than playing in the in-state league. (Note that I think they should also attend local practices, not just practice once a week.)
But again, it is a case-by-case, situation-by-situation decision. It's not "this is always right and that is always wrong". In fact, I do know of some situations where kids would probably be better off playing on a local team in the in-state league rather than choosing to play on a team in R3PL because they only play 10-15 minutes each game. This is yet another factor that needs to be taken into consideration.
Last edited by JAK; 05/22/09 01:22 PM.
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Quote:
jak, you left off the "arse" part...
I did that on purpose
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I thought that was just the acronym for the new CESA Training Program.
Last edited by CUnitedParent; 05/22/09 01:31 PM.
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so, cu, what would that be the acronym for?
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Previously on the boards it had been referred to as the TARP Program
Together
Andrew and Pearce
Recruit the
Piedmont
Now it has changed to:
Andrew and Pearce
Recruit
South Carolina
Everyday
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I think parents pushing there kids to drive up to 6 hours in a day on Hwy 26 or 85 is nuts, both these are are nasty roads They are living on the edge for soccer.
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I feel the same way..Going to Greenville does not make you a better player..You might play on a better team but players are developed throughout the state..And pound for pound most players measure up individually..
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Quote:
Previously on the boards it had been referred to as the TARP Program
Together
Andrew and Pearce
Recruit the
Piedmont
Now it has changed to:
Andrew and Pearce
Recruit
South Carolina
Everyday
That's pretty good. I guess the thing to point out here is that there is legal recruiting, which most clubs do. Then there are the 'other activities'. If I'm not mistaken, in the last few months your club has aligned themselves with a man who got suspended for 15 months. Not to mention the odp coach who was replaced for pushing one of your club's programs. I wonder, did that person decide to do it on his own?
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If you build it...they will come... and it has been built well!
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Call em..Harry..If we're not doing something right in the lowcountry..There's no need to recruit here..Right?
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So you are saying if I am traveling to Greenville to be on a better team, It doesn't mean I am a better player,right? I guess in turn you must not have to be a very good player to make one of those teams. I wonder if they have try outs and if anyone could make the team. Seems to me that looking at the records, CESA teams have a lot of state champions under their belt. Sounds pretty good for a bunch of not necessarily good players to beat pretty much the rest of the state. My and if they have to be at only one practice they're STILL beating the rest of the state. A team is a group of individuals working together for a common goal. It appears to be working. AND where do you get off assuming that the parents are pushing their children, Do you have to do that at your house? probably so. The green machine is rearing its ugly head. If you dont like, do something about it.I for one tire of people moaning and groaning about any club.
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Just analyzing the argument, not for or against any clubs, but...
If, as the last post seemed to imply, you already have to be a very good player before you can make one of their teams, then that would suggest that...
CHT...care to take a stab at finishing that thought?
I've got good news and bad news...
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"Going to Greenville does not make you a better player" i totally agree - just going to greenville does not make you a better player. i mean, cesa appears to be doing pretty well, but they aren't THAT good - what, like you just drive up there, cruise around for a little while, then come back home and you're better by the time you get back? loc and parkermak have made some pretty outrageous claims, but i don't think even they would claim that you can get better just by driving up there.
"players are developed throughout the state" i agree with this, also
"And pound for pound most players measure up individually" what the heck does that even mean?
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I'll finish that thought with...The development was already done..
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That's pretty much what that line of reasoning leads to, yes.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Quote:
Call em..Harry..If we're not doing something right in the lowcountry..There's no need to recruit here..Right?
There is plenty going right in the low country. There are very good players that come from there. Look at it from the other side though. Just because you are recruited, doesn't mean you have to go. Furthermore, once one kid goes; if it's a bad idea I think the word would spread and the practice would stop. However, there are kids that come for 3-4 years. So, they must think it's a worthwhile venture.
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I was wrong. There isn't any anti- CESA sentiment on this board.
The dog and pony show of Chass and CHT was really good though.
Facts, in fact, do not speak for themselves. CESA is doing all they do with smoke, mirrors, and rhetoric.
Bottom line is this.If you don't want to lose players to CESA then that is your problem , not CESA's. You simply need to produce a better product- not try to tear CESA down. I was slammed for supporting CESA but it's OK for everyone else to take their shots. Like lumpy said- it has been built well and you can't do a thing about it but complain.
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Harry,
I never said it was not worthwhile..Most kids that go finish out their playing days at CESA..When I make a point that other areas are capable of producing solid soccer players or If someone says " you have to be good to make a CESA team" and I reply that the development was started somewhere else or why recruit down here?
It seems to come across as if I have a problem with the upstate..I appreciate the fact that CESA gives us strong teams to measure ourselves against..My child has taken part in the college combine and is looking forward to playing in the CAPS program..A solid program..second to none..While I may not be on here day in and day out tooting CESA's horn..I have nothing but respect for what they have done.
I guess if I have to think of a problem or something that bothers me is that for the next 15 months we are going to be labled as cheaters because of someones actions and others have worked to [censored] hard dowwn here giving kids a chance to play at the next level..There is no problem with supporting CESA..That's your club and you should be proud of it..Praise CESA without calling my club cheaters and we're all good..
I do not always explain myself well..It's hard to grasp what someone is saying when we read posts and make up our own minds what someone is saying..I'm guilty of that.
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>>[lowcountryboil1] Cesa is all about winning state even more than development, that why players only have to attend one practice per week if they live outside the Greenville araea. I believe they think talent will prevail over teamwork which is a shame.
Can't say it has not worked for them in most cases.
Drink the CESA Kool Aid. <<
>>[CUnitedParent] Andrew and Pearce
Recruit
South Carolina
Everyday<<
>>[lowcountryboil1] I think parents pushing there kids to drive up to 6 hours in a day on Hwy 26 or 85 is nuts, both these are are nasty roads They are living on the edge for soccer.<<
Sigh...
The purpose of this note isn't to argue, but to help anyone who hasn't made their mind up yet about their kid and youth soccer in South Carolina. I do want to share a few personal facts from a situation I found myself in a few years ago.
At age 13, my kid had played with two completely different teams that won South Carolina Challenge Cup youth championships, both on fields that were less than 5 minutes from my home. However, in the fall after her team winning its second championship, it was clear that her level of commitment was different from the other kids. A lot of kids had left, the others simply weren't as committed as she was (and by committed, I mean training/practicing hours each day, 7 days a week.) She was frustrated and wasn't having fun.
She knew about GFC, primarily because she knew about some of the players up there on the U17 and U18 teams that she idolized. She asked if we'd take her to train. We talked to her coach, who completely understood and supported it and wrote a letter to Andrew Hyslop, who was the DOC there. Andrew invited her up and let her work with the U17 and U18 teams. This kid, who was less than 5 feet tall and less than 100 pounds, was thrust in the middle of a situation that was probably more challenging than a lot of us can imagine.
She loved it. She had met a group of kids that were every bit as passionate about soccer as she was. Kids that watched it on TV. Kids that practiced when they didn't have to. Kids that were flat out better than she was...not just bigger (every kid was bigger than her then) but flat out better.
She begged us to take her there repeatedly. She began practicing with some college players that fall which Andrew helped arrange. That spring, she was playing games against D1 colleges at age 13. GFC let her go up there and do double training - 3-4 hours in a row with first a boys team and then her team or an older team. She had previously had trouble getting boys teams to let her train with them. Not there. (Note: By the way, also not at Aiken that summer, where Justin Rhodes' Fire boys team welcomed her and let her do double workouts with the U18 boys and then a summer girls team.)
GFC merged with SGU to form CESA. She still loved it. As she turned 14 she begged us to take her there 3 times a week. She would go and do double-practices each time - again, 3-4 hours in a row. When she wasn't there, she was practicing at home - by herself or with anyone who would have her. During the seasons, CESA had Columbia practices in addition to Greenville - so on her fourth day she'd practice in Columbia.
As she got older, she went to Greenville less and practiced in Columbia more - I can remember her senior year in high school she was only going up once a week - but was practicing in CESA- and non-CESA practices still at least four times a week.
Look - I absolutely understand parents who think it's crazy to drive 100+ miles one way for a soccer practice. I was one of those until my kid was 13. But it really depends upon your kid. I can tell you that the way my kid talked me into it was that she was willing to work harder than anyone I knew - to me, if she was willing to invest the time and energy then I thought if I could that I should try to support her.
But I'm thankful that the options of GFC and later CESA existed for my kid. I like lots of options for parents - because there are all sorts of kids out there. I think people who perceive that South Carolina club soccer is a win/lose situation are short-sighted. And I respectfully think people who believe that CESA's success is due to recruiting are...well, wrong.
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Some clubs develop and some clubs just take.
CESA does a great job of developing players and have built solid teams. Understandably players from other areas are then drawn to those teams making them stronger.
Bridge on the other hand has taken from the local clubs without prior involvement in those players development and have had a negative impact on the clubs they have taken from, creating a lack of trust. Yeah, they have created opportunities to a few players but most of them were better off where they were.
MPSC has obviously done an amazing job of developing players as players are recruited constantly from them; with parents being sold on the grass is greener, when reality is the majority are better off staying with MP.
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A positive posts about CESA without bringing someone else down..Thank you..Shibumi!!
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Onthefence,
I seem to see a different picture..Over the last two weeks I have seen kids trying out at two or three different clubs..Bridge players trying out elsewhere also..This is what the lowcountry has boiled down too..Everyone trys out everywhere and then makes their decision based on the core of the team..
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CHT, why do you think that is?
Maybe the economy, convenience of practice locations, excessive game day schedules, recent ethical concerns, coaching is just as good at other clubs, or maybe people are realizing the grass isn't any greener.
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yep, shibumi, very nice post...and then onthefence comes along....
onthefence - if you recall - i know you don't WANT to recall - but if you recall, the bridge TRIED to get everyone to do something similar to what cesa did. remember, bridge ALLIANCE - was to be made up of players from all clubs who wanted to be a part of it. (not really wanting to get into this whole thing again) but it didn't quite work that way because not everyone wanted what was best for the lowcountry - too many personal agendas and too many egos (along with plenty other issues).
cesa was able to successfully join the two clubs in greenville - what if they had not been able to do that? i feel certain they would now be "borrowing" players from each other from one season to the next. but, that is not the case - they WERE able to make it work.
so, back in the lowcountry - not everyone decided to work together. are you saying that the bridge should have just given up and walked away?
if you're not saying that, what is the alternative?
make up your mind.
thanks shibumi, for trying to keep it positive....maybe you can help onthefence a little with his attitude.
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I think people or players have an idea where they want to play but they tryout elsewhere just in case they don't make a particular team..Or as players get older they want to play with friends and if a friend says I'm trying out here to..then the others follow..Some players get frustrated with their coach or are not happy with the success of the previous year..Maybe they really like their coach and the coach is moving to another club..i have seen whole teams move to a different club on more than one occasion..All the points you made are viable and true..It also does not help the fact that we have four or five clubs within 20 miles of each other..My child has played at three different clubs but has been with the same one for the past three years..
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and parker/mak, IF you were referring to me when you said, "I was slammed for supporting CESA" i just want to reiterate that i am all for club cheerleading and showing off accomplishments, as long as you don't try to tear down everyone else in the process (same for loc dog).
if cesa is where they are, and you are proud of that and comfortable with everything they've done, you really shouldn't feel the need to lash out at other clubs. it's just not necessary. that's kinda what i've been trying to say for what feels like forever.
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Someone's always going to have a problem with the top dog..That happens in every sport..Whether good or bad people talk about the club because they are on top..It's when people are no longer talking about your club..That's when there might be a problem..Take SSC for instance..No one is talking about them..Posters have tried to generate a dialouge about the club..But no one is interested..
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Mak, I have to wonder...do you and I know each other from somewhere out there in the world? You seem to think everything I say is a personal attack on you, even when it's an attempt to simply show both sides of an issue. The statements I've made about quality, development, recruiting, etc. were general ones that can be applied to any club...the same rationale about tryouts and accepting good players who have already been developed elsewhere could be said about clubs like Bridge as well. Doesn't mean I have anything against Bridge, either--just qualifying any claims that any one establishment is the "only" place to develop into a good player. You seem to like to be the aggressor, and then when that doesn't work out well, play the victim, rather than actually reason through both sides of a discussion. Check Shibumi's post, among others, for good examples of rational and effective discourse. Here's what I see, so there is no further room for misconception. Brace yourself, Mak. CESA provides a lot of great opportunities for soccer players who are serious about their game--opportunities that are harder to find elsewhere at this point. They have a very successful program and have created an environment that, based on testimonials, players have enjoyed being a part of. Some players and parents are willing to travel great distances at considerable expense to take advantage of these opportunities that CESA has the size, structure, and reputation to provide, and for those who can benefit from it, this is a GOOD thing. As for development, I don't get to personally watch training programs all over the state (although, what a great full-time job that would be!), but here are my conclusions based on the arguments made here. It's been stated that CESA has tryouts and has high standards for players who make their teams, which is appropriate for a club that focuses on high levels of competitive play. So, if players are advancing through the age groups within the CESA ranks and continue to meet the standards for competition, it's reasonable to say that there is good player development happening at CESA. If players are coming in from other areas of the state from other clubs and are meeting the same standards to qualify for selection on CESA's competitive teams, then it's reasonable to say that there must be equally good player development happening in other places. Here lies the point of contention; I don't think anyone would deny that CESA has created something that is very successful and beneficial to soccer players here in SC. The problem I see is when people want to imply or insist that ANY one club is the ONLY place to go for opportunities and development. For every player who has enjoyed the benefits that CESA is able to provide, there are many more who don't have the opportunity to take advantage of a single club in the Upstate, yet whenever anyone else tries to create other opportunities to serve a broader group of young people in the state, there are those who try to do nothing but put them down, belittle the efforts, and undermine the foundation of anything that might attempt to eventually compete with the current frontrunner, and I find that attitude to be selfish and counterproductive to SC soccer as a whole. I see no reason our state can't produce more than one highly-successful soccer club that can provide opportunity and an environment players can be proud to be a part of, and I would think that anyone truly concerned about the overall success of soccer in SC would be all for reaching more players in more areas with more opportunities for more success, rather than just saying "if you want to succeed, come to this one spot; if you can't come here, well, tough...you're just going to be second-rate." If the problem is that things have been royally botched in other areas (not saying they have or haven't), then it would be a lot more productive and unselfish to offer ideas and encouragement to get it right, rather than bashing and suggesting that other areas should just give up. Those are the attitudes I'd like to see change, and if that means pointing out sometimes that the most successful club in the state isn't the ONLY possibility for creating something successful, please don't take it personally. Please believe me, it's not anti-CESA; it's just anti-monopoly. And Mak, if I know you from somewhere in the past and unwittingly did something to wrong you personally--took your favorite seat in class, stole your parking spot, actually asked out that girl you were trying to work up the courage to talk to--I had no idea, and I sincerely apologize. If it makes you feel any better, she didn't work out so well for me either.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Coach and Shibumi,
Thank you both for well thought out, positive posts. How refreshing.
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Seriously - more refreshing than a v8 (drink or engine).
Coach, you said the stuff I was thinkin I was writin, but apparently I was only thinkin it, and writin somethin different, cause while it was soundin like what I was thinkin, it wasn't lookin like what I was writin.
And I wouldn't lie to you about that, either...
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Quote:
Coach, you said the stuff I was thinkin I was writin, but apparently I was only thinkin it, and writin somethin different, cause while it was soundin like what I was thinkin, it wasn't lookin like what I was writin.
Now that made me laugh out loud. Funny stuff
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