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Anyone else out there seeing schools considering cutting back on programs?
Fort Mill school district is considering canceling all middle school spring sports (except) track next year to save money! Sad but soccer is just about one of the least expensive programs per player and yet they would cut it to save more expensive sports, like basketball that only has a few players on the team.
Shame is that the program was just begining to ramp up with more 7th/8th graders playing middle school soccer! The benefit over the next few years would have been very good to the high schools.
Just wondering if anyone else is feeling the pinch?
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That is sad to hear. I know that it appeared the Ft Mill programs were developing very well. My AD always said that we lost money. I took over the gate and concessions and was able to pay for the refs. Now I do fund raise to cover tournaments and other things. As long as I dont lose money, my AD is happy with me.
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I have mixed emotions with it.
The purpose of school is NOT to provide sports. Now I love sports as much or more than anyone....but in awful economic times you have to make choices. When I was in "Jr Hs" back in the day, school sports were football and bball for boys and cheerleading and bball for girls. Thats it.
HS sports have overgrown themselves also. Out of town/out of state tournaments.....away games on school nights that have kids getting home at 10-11pm......ridiculous.
Fort Mill now has 2 high schools......meaning for soccer players in between jv and varsity you now have 4 teams to make. Twice as many roster spots....
Spring sport athletes in Fm can play baseball-softball, track, soccer, golf, tennis.
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We have not had a budget for our JV teams from day one...district allowed no supplement for them. We have been running them entirely from shifting money from the varsity budget, fundraisers, and coaches who have been awesome enough to volunteer their time and effort without pay. There are ways to make it work even with budget cuts if people want it badly enough to work for it; as Chief says, soccer can be one of the least expensive sports per student to run...
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Have to agree with Biggy D on this one..
But before programs are cut..Let's make sure that the bigger programs..Football,basketball and baseball have cut their budgets down to allow everyone to play..
If your school can afford to play these sports..soccer should not even be an issue
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There are other choices for 7th and 8th grade soccer players to get them ready for the high school team.
A. Play on the high school JV team
B. Play U-13 & U-14 club soccer during the spring
C. Play both
I think FM and NF will still be OK if this goes down.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Well according to one of their middle school websites, they have way too many expenses in the other sports. Do other middle schools have:
7th and 8th grade Volleyball
7th grade basketball (Boys and Girls)
8th grade Basketball (Boys and Girls)
7th grade Football
8th grade Football
Softball
Track
Wrestling
Baseball
Soccer (Boys and Girls)
Dance (it is listed on the athletics page)
See why it costs so much to run middle school athletics in Fort Mill.
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In Fort Mill can 7th/8th graders choose to tryout for the High School JV team instead of playing Middle School soccer? Here in Richland 2 Middle School kids are not allowed to tryout for the JV teams...
tk
Tony King
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Oh... and to answer the question on restrictions- JV is not allowed to travel to any "non-local" games so in order to try and max out their season I have been scheduling more local Varsity games so we can piggyback the ride.
tk
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Maybe someone should wonder why a school AD needs to be payed 100K a year??? I am certain you can take 30% of it and save most of the programs. HS football coaches whose only job is football and make 80k plus is ridiculous. In case you forgot HS Football coaches salaries - Jan 11/09 THE STATE
Last edited by futbol(soccer); 05/29/09 06:31 PM.
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Quote:
Well according to one of their middle school websites, they have way too many expenses in the other sports. Do other middle schools have:
7th and 8th grade Volleyball
7th grade basketball (Boys and Girls)
8th grade Basketball (Boys and Girls)
7th grade Football
8th grade Football
Softball
Track
Wrestling
Baseball
Soccer (Boys and Girls)
Dance (it is listed on the athletics page)
See why it costs so much to run middle school athletics in Fort Mill.
Exactly......and even if you take sports like soccer which are inexpensive and have volunteer coaches, etc etc you will get into all kinds of politics if you allow 1...and not the others.
Offering all those sports at MS is ridiculous. My kid played MS bball and enjoyed it. But that was before the explosion in all these sports. I think 2 years ago.....they offered football and basketball.
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Quote:
In Fort Mill can 7th/8th graders choose to tryout for the High School JV team instead of playing Middle School soccer? Here in Richland 2 Middle School kids are not allowed to tryout for the JV teams...
tk
They could......before the explosion of MS sports. Now it takes an act of Congress to get a very, very good middle schooler cleared to play JV.
In a school world flush with cash....a broad offering of MS sports is great!!! Barring that....bag it and let the better kids play JV.
Good club players can play JV no problem at 7th-8th grade, unless they are very small for their age. Normal sized kids have no issues.
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Quote:
There are other choices for 7th and 8th grade soccer players to get them ready for the high school team.
A. Play on the high school JV team
B. Play U-13 & U-14 club soccer during the spring
C. Play both
I think FM and NF will still be OK if this goes down.
Agreed. MS soccer isn't developing kids to compete at the HS level. If you want to do it for fun and for school pride, fine. Kids that are developing.....are doing so becasue they play club. Not picking on MS soccer...I'd say mostly the same for JV and I'm a JV coach.
IF we have a nice wave of talented 7th-8th graders coming thru the FM middle schools......its probably more about club and coincidence/luck...then it is the existence of MS soccer.
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I'll have to disagree with that last statement...playing in 7th and 8th grade (which is actually our JV), if done well and with purpose, does help develop players for HS teams, especially the ones who for whatever reasons don't have the chance to play club. It also gives players a chance to develop and move up together as a team, with familiar teammates and a knowledge of how they mesh together. We have seen a distinct improvement in level of play since we added JV teams and got the 7th and 8th graders involved; it has also helped our numbers to give the athletic students a chance to get involved with soccer in 7th and 8th grade. Those athletic types who don't have the opportunity to play soccer will get started in other sports at that age (softball, track, etc.), and once started in a sport will most likely stick with it when they reach high school rather than switch to soccer.
I advocate club play to all my athletes, I coach a club team in the fall, and I think playing club ball can make a huge difference in player and team performance--BUT--club is not the ONLY possible route or contributing factor in developing players and teams, and for areas and individuals for which club isn't an option, sometimes developmental high school teams (MS and JV) are the ONLY opportunity for some to develop before they hit varsity. I think some people who are steeped in the club environment and mentality take it as a matter of course and forget that folks in other situations sometimes have to take different routes to accomplish the same objectives.
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I'll take it a step more...if you have middle school and JV teams and they AREN'T helping to develop players for high school...I'd start asking the question, "Why not?"
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Ok, let me back up a half step. To take a kid who has only played at a rec level, yes...a good MS or JV coach can improve that player.
But if you are in a conference with some really good teams, taking a rec player and making him/her incrementally better isn't going to get it done.
Its all about perspective. If you are truly only doing it to make kids better, irrespective of results....cool. Develop away.
If the intent is to win.....and I think in school sports the intent is to win.....then good luck dealing with a bushel basket of rec players.
My idea of development within this context......is, can a MS coach or a JV coach take a non Club player and "develop" them into being able to successfully compete with a Northwestern or Fort Mill or Wando or Irmo or Mauldin or Dorman....and the answer is no. Never in heck.
That will only happen with talent and with getting kids playing soccer with experienced, capable, probably professional coaching......read Club......at 8-9-10 years old.
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I was going to weigh in with the question/statement:
"What if the JV coach IS also a Club Coach? I've know a few of those!"
But then I figured that would just help flame the Us v Them - Club v HS argument again.....
tk
Tony King
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Ok, I'll back up a half step as well...I think perhaps we're talking about two different systems of value. If the point of high school ball is to win--and I won't argue against that at all--and the only standard for winning is to beat Wando or Irmo or Northwestern or Fort Mill or Dorman, or B-E for that matter--then I'll agree, JV and MS participation alone probably isn't going to get the job done, and I'd also have to say a lot of high school programs in this state might as well just hang it up, because it is comparatively only an elite few who compete at that level. I have said more than once that it is unrealistic to expect to compete with players who put in a long-term, year-round investment in the sport unless you are willing to make a comparable investment.
On the other hand, there are measures of success in HS ball that don't necessarily culminate in state championships...which is a good thing, or otherwise there would be only three girls' and four boys' teams that are successful per year. If we are talking about development--which, if you truly are doing it to make kids better, cannot be irrespective of results--then anything that makes a team more competitive than it was before is a help. If the difference is playoffs vs. no playoffs, last in the region vs. middle of the pack, losing 15-0 to Wando vs. losing 3-0, and maybe developing a player here and there who can go on to play at the next level rather than just marking time till graduation, then there are definitely developmental opportunities there that can make a difference in overall team performance and self-perception. My stance is against taking an "all or nothing" view that if it's not winning championships, it's not helping at all and therefore isn't worth doing. Again, everyone isn't in the same situation, so it's more about the relative value of things than a single absolute value that can be applied across the board.
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TK...that sounds more like a bridge than a division. 
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Long story short...if you say "MS and JV soccer alone aren't likely to prepare a team to beat Wando and Mauldin," then I'll agree. If you say "MS and JV don't help to develop players for high school ball" as a general statement, I would wonder exactly what it is that the MS and JV coaches are doing.
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Quote:
can a MS coach or a JV coach take a non Club player and "develop" them into being able to successfully compete with a Northwestern or Fort Mill or Wando or Irmo or Mauldin or Dorman....and the answer is no. Never in heck.
I take exception to this statement. My middle school guys, 7th and 8th only, played in the highest bracket of the Irmo JV End of Season against Dutch Fork JV, Irmo JV, and White Knoll JV. Ask them if I have them prepared for high school.
DF was goofing off before our game thinking hey a MS this should be easy. THey scored on a PK in the 1st to lead 1-0. It was on a break away late in the 2nd that sealed it at 2-0. WE controlled the ball and played on their half of the field.
Irmo is great. They put 3 goals on us in the 1st 5 minutes (2 corners and a throw in near the corner). But we played hard and physical and an Irmo kid got frustrated and got a red card. We played great from box to box. And we even scored on them right before half. We lost 3-1. But raise your hand if you scored on Irmo JV's 1st string. They are a great team.
WHite Knoll came out puching us around and intimidated us in the first half as we were down 3-0 but we scored to open the 2nd and had many opportunities to come back.
Dont tell me I do not prepare my guys for those teams when the WK coach comes up to me and says that Spring Valley will be very good with these guys in the future. Remember just 7th and 8th graders going toe to toe with the top 3 teams in the Yellow bracket.
I was blessed to have Antione Parris play on my team for 1 year. When Dave Clark made a comment in the paper that middle school soccer did not teach physical play I turned it up. We try to play JV teams but they dont want a middle school team. This goes for both the boys and girls teams. We love the underdog role and want to beat these high school JV kids.
If you want these teams to be good they have to play good teams. Get the coaches involved in the SCHSSCA and the clinics. Let them play higher competition and stop being scared to schedule them. We are treated just like a JV team.
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Quote:
Long story short...if you say "MS and JV soccer alone aren't likely to prepare a team to beat Wando and Mauldin," then I'll agree. If you say "MS and JV don't help to develop players for high school ball" as a general statement, I would wonder exactly what it is that the MS and JV coaches are doing.
Probably the same as most well meaning rec coaches....the best they can. Provide an environment for the kids to have fun, learn a great game, pull on their school jersey, build some memories. Just like Little League.
2 of my 20 JV's from last year played varsity this past year (both club players). I'll go out on a limb and guess that of my 20 this year...maybe another 3-4 will play varsity nxt year. All but 1 club players...and that 1 is playing this year.
The vast majority of my kids over the last 2 years did NOT play club. 5 of 20 this year.....most of them are unlikely to ever play varsity until their senior year, if then.
Our jv went from 6-7 last year to 17-2-1 this year. We played hard and at times played good soccer. Our school is NOT Northwestern.....but to be one of the 18 best on varsity you still need to be athletic and a decent player. As in, decent club player. The gap between a good 4A jv team and a mediocre 4A varsity team is surprisingly large.
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Quote:
Ok, I'll back up a half step as well...I think perhaps we're talking about two different systems of value. If the point of high school ball is to win--and I won't argue against that at all--and the only standard for winning is to beat Wando or Irmo or Northwestern or Fort Mill or Dorman, or B-E for that matter--then I'll agree, JV and MS participation alone probably isn't going to get the job done, and I'd also have to say a lot of high school programs in this state might as well just hang it up, because it is comparatively only an elite few who compete at that level. I have said more than once that it is unrealistic to expect to compete with players who put in a long-term, year-round investment in the sport unless you are willing to make a comparable investment.
On the other hand, there are measures of success in HS ball that don't necessarily culminate in state championships...which is a good thing, or otherwise there would be only three girls' and four boys' teams that are successful per year. If we are talking about development--which, if you truly are doing it to make kids better, cannot be irrespective of results--then anything that makes a team more competitive than it was before is a help. If the difference is playoffs vs. no playoffs, last in the region vs. middle of the pack, losing 15-0 to Wando vs. losing 3-0, and maybe developing a player here and there who can go on to play at the next level rather than just marking time till graduation, then there are definitely developmental opportunities there that can make a difference in overall team performance and self-perception. My stance is against taking an "all or nothing" view that if it's not winning championships, it's not helping at all and therefore isn't worth doing. Again, everyone isn't in the same situation, so it's more about the relative value of things than a single absolute value that can be applied across the board.
I don't disagree with much of what you write. Obviously only 1 4A school won a boys championship (or girls) and I would never say the rest of them were failures or underachieved. Nothing wrong with small victories and/or incremental improvement.
But again.....my opinion is that a kid that only plays rec soccer or middle school soccer is unlikely to make much of an impact at JV, unless they are very athletic and hardnosed. And even those kids.....find it hard to make the leap to varsity.
In most cases....kids that are key contributors on high school teams play club. Do they learn from their school coaches and experiences? Of course!! But the lions share of their development took place at club or at the home if they come from a playing family.
These are my experiences.
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Quote:
Quote:
can a MS coach or a JV coach take a non Club player and "develop" them into being able to successfully compete with a Northwestern or Fort Mill or Wando or Irmo or Mauldin or Dorman....and the answer is no. Never in heck.
I take exception to this statement. My middle school guys, 7th and 8th only, played in the highest bracket of the Irmo JV End of Season against Dutch Fork JV, Irmo JV, and White Knoll JV. Ask them if I have them prepared for high school.
DF was goofing off before our game thinking hey a MS this should be easy. THey scored on a PK in the 1st to lead 1-0. It was on a break away late in the 2nd that sealed it at 2-0. WE controlled the ball and played on their half of the field.
Irmo is great. They put 3 goals on us in the 1st 5 minutes (2 corners and a throw in near the corner). But we played hard and physical and an Irmo kid got frustrated and got a red card. We played great from box to box. And we even scored on them right before half. We lost 3-1. But raise your hand if you scored on Irmo JV's 1st string. They are a great team.
WHite Knoll came out puching us around and intimidated us in the first half as we were down 3-0 but we scored to open the 2nd and had many opportunities to come back.
Dont tell me I do not prepare my guys for those teams when the WK coach comes up to me and says that Spring Valley will be very good with these guys in the future. Remember just 7th and 8th graders going toe to toe with the top 3 teams in the Yellow bracket.
I was blessed to have Antione Parris play on my team for 1 year. When Dave Clark made a comment in the paper that middle school soccer did not teach physical play I turned it up. We try to play JV teams but they dont want a middle school team. This goes for both the boys and girls teams. We love the underdog role and want to beat these high school JV kids.
If you want these teams to be good they have to play good teams. Get the coaches involved in the SCHSSCA and the clinics. Let them play higher competition and stop being scared to schedule them. We are treated just like a JV team.
Coach JB, I don't know you from Adam.....but my team lost to Irmo 1-0 in the finals of the pre-season tournament. I meant no disrespect to your coaching or your team. It sounds like you had a fine young team.
My points.......are that your team was the exception and not the rule. My 4A jv team played and beat a 1A varsity team twice. It doesn't mean a thing other than we were better than that one team.
My guess would be......that with all those top young 7th-8th graders....many of them play club. I had the good fortune to watch Antoine Parris in a playoff game this Spring and he was a very good soccer player. I hear he is an Academy player now. My guess is he wasn't introduced to soccer at the age of 12-13.
Congrats on a great season!!!
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[quote
My guess would be......that with all those top young 7th-8th graders....many of them play club. I had the good fortune to watch Antoine Parris in a playoff game this Spring and he was a very good soccer player. I hear he is an Academy player now. My guess is he wasn't introduced to soccer at the age of 12-13.
Congrats on a great season!!!
Thanks. I was blessed this year with 2 move ins, one of which hadnt played soccer in several years but was a major contributor. And I do promise you that Antoine never should have played MS. After 5 years of coaching the MS, I have only seen 1 that could even possibly come close to that natural talent.
Most of them didnt play club last year. but I do know that most of them did try out and make it this year. But what we do is run it like a high school program with hosting a camp, many go to USC's camp together, off season conditioning, and many play indoor together. I encourage them to either try out for club or atleast keep playing rec. And I will also admit that most schools dont do hardly any of that.
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Wow. You have significant numbers of non-club players whose parents shell out hundreds of dollars for their kids to do the USC camp? I have club players....whose parents don't/can't/won't do that.
We've kind of gotten off track. I guess the point was...with budget crackdowns are middle school sports really that important? Obviously the kids enjoy it so thats nice. But should they be funded? And my premise is no.
In sports like basketball.....the younger age groups serve as filters for eventually the varsity team. I see a lot of kids playing soccer at the lower levels who have no chance of playing varsity. BBall players.......for the most part don't take up the game at age 12. Or quit at 10...and pick it up again at 13. I see that a lot around here with soccer.
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I agree with Daddy. When funds get short and the belt needs to be tightened, you can drop MS soccer without an adverse effect to the high school program.
If the kids are good enough, they will make the JV (at least by 8th grade). They will also continue to develop their game by playing competitive club soccer, if it is offered in their area.
The tax payers do not need to shoulder the additional burden if the money isn't there. If times are good, middle school soccer is a great opportunity for kids to represent their school and have fun playing with their classmates.
Another thought......
How many players do you need to develop, per class, in order to have a competitive high school program? Generally speaking, on the girls side, if you have four players per class that excel in high-level club soccer, you have the ingredients for a championship team.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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BD, Sorry for my tangent. I hope you understand my passion for what I do. I know that Hurst is aware of it. I only get 5-8 that go to USC's camp, but it does help build not only thier skills but the "team" as well.
I guess I am not fully aware of what moneys are recieved by high school programs from the tax payers. Again the only money we get from our district other than the start up costs 5 years ago is transportation to 5 games within out school district. We are fully self supporting.
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Jb,
You do a great job with your program and I wish you continued success. I hope you can get some matches with Gold Hill, Fort Mill and Springfield.
Are you still in the same uniforms that you got five years ago? Who pays for uniforms, equipment, referees and coach's salary at your school?
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Hurst, BD--I certainly don't disagree with what you are saying, especially in context of the perspective from which you are saying it. Any disagreement, I think, comes from use of broad, generalizing statements that may not apply equally to all programs in all situations.
Please understand that I am not trying to equate the average MS or JV team with a high-quality club experience. It's hard, looking at a question from a place where club is a natural part of development and taken for granted within the high school soccer culture, to see the effect other options can have if club play is not an option for many players. For a well-developed program where the players and parents take club ball as a matter of course in development and a full team of club players can be fielded, I would agree that middle school and even JV programs would have a minimal effect, and at least MS could be dropped with little if any adverse effect on the varsity team, because the serious players (who would end up making the varsity cut and probably squeezing out most of the MS team players in the long run) would be playing at their clubs at that point anyway.
For the many programs in the state that don't operate under these ideal situations, however (read: you can't outsource; either develop 'em yourself or you don't get 'em), middle school and JV teams, if done right with competent, conscientious staff, would make a heck of a lot more impact on the development of a varsity team than the clubs many of their players can't afford the time and money to invest in, and in hard times, a free option through the school is more likely to gain parental support than telling them they have to come up with hundreds and even thousands of dollars per year in order to hope to make varsity. Sometimes it's only after getting involved in the sport through a free option at a young age that a player realizes the desire and aptitude to get better; it's then that they (and their parents) can be convinced to invest that money and effort in club development. I agree that 7th and 8th graders can participate on JV teams without the need to fund a separate middle school team when times are tough...all of our 7th and 8th graders play on an equally-unfunded JV squad.
Again, I know these arguments don't apply to schools where club is simply a part of the culture and goes without saying, but for those who don't have a strong base of club players to pull from, development means using every option at your disposal to get the job done at home--and that means getting as many students playing and learning at as early an age as possible. Maybe a team in that situation won't ever win state--but it shouldn't be from a lack of using every tool at their disposal to make it happen, and that means placing importance on development through the school programs for those who can't afford to get it somewhere else.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Chass, Agrre with everything that you say. I admire programs such as yours (Barnwell also comes to mind) where dedicated coaches operate in under-funded or "disadvantaged" circumstances, when compared to more soccer-rich communities. My hat is off to you. When you guys make a run, everyone gets behind you, pulling hard for the underdog. PS - I drove right by your school on Thursday while working the Summerville, Moncks Corner, Goose Creek and North Charleston Wal-Marts. (I also got to see "Pepsi Bruce" from Pinewood Prep.) 
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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And we appreciate the pulling! It's great fun, trying to beat the odds sometimes, and the best part is the players really appreciate what they get out of the effort. Hope you enjoyed your trip through the Corner!
I've got good news and bad news...
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Jb,
Are you still in the same uniforms that you got five years ago? Who pays for uniforms, equipment, referees and coach's salary at your school?
The supplement I did not think of. Good point. We have 2 paid positions and it is just below the JV head coach in the district. The boys and girls each get 1 paid position. Now I can defer some of my money to an assistant, which I will do this year.
As for everything else, we have to pay for it. It is difficult to cover the officials with small crowds due to district home games starting at 3 and tickets at $3. The cost of officials is over $160 plus SRO is $105. I have bought my 3rd set of uniforms. This set was over $3600 which I raised plus transportation to Irmo twice, BC, and three entry fees to Irmo tournaments. There are schools in the district that have the same 1 uniform that they started with. 2 other schools have only added a white uniform.
My fundraisers are hosting a soccer camp, car wash, selling candy, and hosting a tournament (which I do give T's away for the teams that participate). The only cost to my players are 3 practice t-shirts which I try to help cover some of the cost on.
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JB,
That's tremendous. If our district still has MS soccer in 2010, please send your tournament invitations to Gold Hill, Fort Mill and Springfield Middle Schools. I'll strongly encourage those teams to attend.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Well according to one of their middle school websites, they have way too many expenses in the other sports. Do other middle schools have:
7th and 8th grade Volleyball
7th grade basketball (Boys and Girls)
8th grade Basketball (Boys and Girls)
7th grade Football
8th grade Football
Softball
Track
Wrestling
Baseball
Soccer (Boys and Girls)
Dance (it is listed on the athletics page)
See why it costs so much to run middle school athletics in Fort Mill.
Wow great response! A little more background on what was/is proposed. They (admin types) want to cut soccer, softball, and baseball becasue they were the last three sports added. They would still keep ALL other sports, including the multiple 7th grade teams for the other sports!
A few points I see wrong here is that:
Since soccer,Baseball,Softball were made up of 7/8 on one team why can not the other sports be 7/8 this alone would consolidate 8 teams (football, volleyball, girl&boys Basketball) into 4 thus saving the four spring sports for a whole lot more kids than would be cut by the smaller team in the fall/winter.
Why is it the school decided to cut these sports even though they are the lowest cost sports (I have seen the budget) offered for the largest number of players? While some might say football makes some money the reality is that at the middle school level it is just not true, cost of equipment and uniforms when coupled with security and refs is not covering the cost every year (it does some but not others when new uniforms are needed). My question is really about the bias shown toward FB and BB even thought they cost more to run (BB is very expensive when you add security/refs/gym cost and realize there are maybe 10 on a team and only 5 play at a time) and do not forget dance and cheer costs must be split between FB and boys BB!
Telling the kids who play these spring sports "sorry your cancelled because there is no money!" while they have to watch everyone else play sends a signal that thier sport is not important, and thus neither are they, as athletes. If we are going to have sports at the school should'nt they be the ones that are most played by youths?
Perhaps most disturbing about this whole thing was that the Senior leadership team (the one making the recomendation to school board) made this recomemdation with out ANY input from parents, in fact the parents were never informed (offically) concerning this possibility. I belive they were going to try and do this "under the cover of darkness" because of the amount of heat that would (and now is ) be generated! In my book if there is no money for spring sports then maybe there is not enough money to be "wasting it" on sports period, afterall it is middle school and I do not think any scholarships will be lost without middle school sports.
AS for the whole club vs JV vs Middle school thing, well to me that is not part of the argument in this case. Why do we need the other sports, let them go play club ball too. I think people confuse quality of play with the chance to play. Many kids just want a chance to play because they love thier sport be it rec or club level. Also there are a few "rec" players who discover they have the ability to play at club player level.
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Coach JB....I stick by my statement that I told you after our game with your guys in the Irmo JV Tournament. I was very impressed with your team.
As for budget discussion, it is a tough time in South Carolina right for those in Education. I also the head football coach at a middle school that feeds into White Knoll High. Luckily, they have not cut our program, but if things don't get better, I can see that easily happening. I would hate to see MS Soccer or other sports get cut, but that is where we are with the economy.
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I understand that football is the money maker, or at least is suppose to be. My big arguements were questioning why those same Ft Mill middle schools listed all of those teams in the fall (7th and 8th football, basketball, and cheer) but were possibly wanting to cut to spring sports and the statement that MS soccer does not prepare the kids for high school soccer.
Back in April I asked Heise how well having a B-Team has helped his program and he said that he had a B-team 6 or 7 years and went on to say that roughly 75% of his current Varsity players played at least one year of B-Team soccer. 85% of his JV has played at least one year of B-Team. He said that it absolutely had helped his program and feared where he would be without it.
But again I do understand the budget issues going on everywhere.
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Well, I will say that atleast 5 guys from the 2008 WK Boys B-team soccer team either started or played significant roles on my JV squad this past season. So, I agree that middle school programs are VERY important in the development of the kids.
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Spring sports face ax The (Rock Hill) Herald June 3, 2009 by Shawn Cetrone http://www.heraldonline.com/109/story/1383291.htmlPage 1 of my morning paper. 
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Hurst,
Anything us locals can do to make sure these programs continue? Private funding by parents?
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Import... you already are paying... it is called taxes. Why should you pay more?
I am on record on this board that lots of money is spent on very few... on a given varsity football team only a small number play. Yet we find important to pay the AD of a HS.... Again ATHLETIC DIRECTOR of a high school close to 100k a year??? a coach for HS Football .... again a COACH FOR HS FOOTBALL with no other responsibilities 80k a year?
I am currently paying for 3...count them 3.... $4 million+ stadiums in my school district... all based on football.
Why do I have to pay more for my kids to play a different sport?
As I understand taxes are used to finance government and pay for the services they provide back to us. Therefore in times such as these services must be cut.
Get rid of the AD and divide the job (whatever that was) between the principal and the coaching staff, then the next question is how much do you pay the football coach and why.
I bet lots of money would be saved
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Hear ya and agree. I voted against a bond (which won in a landslide) for approx. $10 mil for a new football stadium at Nation Ford, update of Fort Mill stadium, a new basketball gym at both NF and FM, where FM has one! And our football team still went 1-10 and not in most games.
The bummer is I don't want to continue to see the kids be the losers over adult mistakes.
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I think we're compressing a bunch of complex issues involving school sports and finances.....and it blurs the issues.
High school athletic directors.......high school football coaches....construction of physical property/assets really has little to do with the issue at hand.
The issue at hand is middle school sports. Now.....I don't think they have to whack only the newest sports, or the spring sports. There are several questions:
1. Do we need middle school athletic directors, or can this role be filled/shared by the two HS athletic directors.
2. Can you combine the 7th and 8th grade football and basketball teams? Not to mention cheerleader teams/dance teams.
But also the question comes up about scope. Should middle schools be offering all of these other sports also?
To me, a combined 7th/8th grade bball team for boys and 1 for girls....a 7th/8th grade football team.....a 7th/8th grade volleyball team for girls.....a cheerleader group....
Do we really need more at the middle school level?
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Quote:
Hear ya and agree. I voted against a bond (which won in a landslide) for approx. $10 mil for a new football stadium at Nation Ford, update of Fort Mill stadium, a new basketball gym at both NF and FM, where FM has one! And our football team still went 1-10 and not in most games.
The bummer is I don't want to continue to see the kids be the losers over adult mistakes.
I'm absolutely ok with building a football stadium at NF. If the school district wanted to go the route of Rock Hill and have a shared stadium offsite, fine. But Northwestern doesn't go play their games at Rock Hill high. Why would anyone ask NF to go to FM?
We're already the redheaded stepchild of the school district. Nothing is equal to begin with.
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BD,
In our district, the Middle AD is not a paid position and must be an administrator. We would not be able to have this role shared at the HS level since we are a choice district.
But I do agree and have been asking all of the questions from #2 down.
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HMMMMM!!!! it seems we have backed into the solution to the problem unkowingly.
1- all schools get their money from the state
2- the state mandates essential services
3- Not all school districts follow the same blueprint. i.e in the Cola area middle schools sports are combined 7/8th grade already.
4- Middle school sports are not essential services (per the article)
Therefore it would make sense there should be a state wide rule for public shools sports offering.
A- any sport in which 7 and 8th graders can already compete for spots in JV should not have a middle school team.
B- HS should have varsity and JV only... No B teams as 9th graders should already be able to compete for JV spots.
This will reduce the numbers significantly and if Johnny and Sally cannot make JV...tough.... life is tough.
Otherwise go back to how it used to be, and let each district have their tax base... This was not considered to be fair by the state so the rule was changed to try and make it more equal, but there is no "equal" rule to extra curricular activities which the districts offer and sometimes use to differentiate themselves.
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Quote:
To me, a combined 7th/8th grade bball team for boys and 1 for girls....a 7th/8th grade football team.....a 7th/8th grade volleyball team for girls.....a cheerleader group....
Do we really need more at the middle school level?
I'm not sure I understand the position here- how do you decide on the favored sports. These are the only sports worthy of Middle School? These also happen to be the most expensive sports budgetwise for the most part. And the spring sports have greater overall youth participation than most of the ones listed.
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Quote:
Quote:
To me, a combined 7th/8th grade bball team for boys and 1 for girls....a 7th/8th grade football team.....a 7th/8th grade volleyball team for girls.....a cheerleader group....
Do we really need more at the middle school level?
I'm not sure I understand the position here- how do you decide on the favored sports. These are the only sports worthy of Middle School? These also happen to be the most expensive sports budgetwise for the most part. And the spring sports have greater overall youth participation than most of the ones listed.
I believe that he is referring to the fact that FM Middle Schools have both 7th and 8th grade teams in football, basketball (girls and boys), and cheer. If I am wrong he is suggesting make it a combined 7th/8th grade team for football and basketball and combine cheer and dance.
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Yes the split 7th and 8th grade team are a waste of money based on cost and number of players. I heard at Gold Hill MS they I to go begging to get enough 7th grade boys to play football last year.
Combining the 4 7th grade team into the 8th grade equilvents would free up almost enough to keep the four spring sports on the block.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
To me, a combined 7th/8th grade bball team for boys and 1 for girls....a 7th/8th grade football team.....a 7th/8th grade volleyball team for girls.....a cheerleader group....
Do we really need more at the middle school level?
I'm not sure I understand the position here- how do you decide on the favored sports. These are the only sports worthy of Middle School? These also happen to be the most expensive sports budgetwise for the most part. And the spring sports have greater overall youth participation than most of the ones listed.
I believe that he is referring to the fact that FM Middle Schools have both 7th and 8th grade teams in football, basketball (girls and boys), and cheer. If I am wrong he is suggesting make it a combined 7th/8th grade team for football and basketball and combine cheer and dance.
Exactly. One football team. One boys basketball team. One girls basketball team, etc
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To me the worst thing about this is that the Admin was going to push this through without letting the parents know. Do they think we are stupid? Do they think we would not find out? Their failure to provide an ample public discussion with the parents speaks volumes about what they think! They want us invloved with the schools as much as possible when it comes to the fundraising but when the tough stuff like what to cut comes up they would rather dole out the decisions based on what they want not how the owners (that would be us the parents and taxpayers) want. The school board asked for this input from their Senior Leadership Team, but no one sought out the parents for their input. Who do you blame for that? Me I will blame both as they have now shown me that they would prefer to operate in the dark if possible.
I am not upset that cuts have to be made, just the way in which it was done. If you want my help in providing the best possible enviorment then perhaps you should keep me involved every chance you get.
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Chief, pull the tribe together and let us know when the next meeting is. We can go on the war path. Totally agree with your comment.
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Now that The Gov freed up the funds......could this all be moot? 
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Not sure. We will be in heavy attendance at the next meeting (15th June, I believe, dont have my planner in hand). We will be there to raise a issue of fairness and express a little rightous indignation over the process! Sure to get a little heated if the board plans on backhanding the parents or put them there. I would guess that if the money is going to help they will quickly get that out to save themselves the grief!
If not well it might be a good time to run next election!
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I don't understand this line of thinking at all. In the greater scheme of things this is small taters. We freely elect a school board to create policy. We hire professional administrators to create and execute strategies necessary to the efficient and excellent management of the school district.
Let them do their jobs and if they start to go down a path you don't like tell them. And if they proceed anyway.....vote the bums out.
But don't expect input as an expectation. God help us all....if all of our "customers" demanded input into our daily small taters decisions. Absolutely nothing would get done.
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Quote:
I don't understand this line of thinking at all. In the greater scheme of things this is small taters. We freely elect a school board to create policy. We hire professional administrators to create and execute strategies necessary to the efficient and excellent management of the school district.
Let them do their jobs and if they start to go down a path you don't like tell them. And if they proceed anyway.....vote the bums out.
But don't expect input as an expectation. God help us all....if all of our "customers" demanded input into our daily small taters decisions. Absolutely nothing would get done.
Not sure I get your point?? Which part of the way our childrens school is run is "small taters"? The fact that they can find money for redundant sports programs while cutting reading specialists? Or is it that they can feel to free unfairly cut programs without any input from the "customers"?
I said before that I understood that cuts likely had to be made given the current money situation but that the doing it in the dark approach they had taken is what concerned me. If you think the SLT and Board were just doing bussiness as usual and not trying to keep this quiet then I guess I can understand your "just let them work" attitiude. Of course your second statement is where we are at we are going to let them know we do not like the path!
IN my case I find it hard to believe they were not trying to hide this given the amount of interaction we normally have with our school administrator. In fact we the parents of one odf these middle schools have yet to recieve any (ANY) official notification that this is even being considered. This is the troublng aspect here, you say do not "expect input as an expectation", but that means we should not expect them to ask our opinions? Ok, so they get to decide when to ask our opinions and when they can leave us in the dark? You give them to much credit, I will not tell them how many pencils to buy or which students to put in which classes but when they want to make decisions affecting hundreds of students, a decision that is made at the benefit of other students I think I would like to know it is being considered! Maybe I have input that can help, maybe not, but I deserve to know what is onthe table. I am not saying they have to use my ideas just do not hide from me to do what you likely know I will not like!
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Whether or not we have middle school soccer in FM is small taters given everything else going on. This is my point.
Your point appears........to have less to do with middle school soccer and more to do with decision making processes in general.
Which after living here for 10 years I understand the frustration. My opinion is.......parents aren't really consulted at all in a meaningful manner on anything. Decisions are more or less made....and then packaged in such a way as to appear like input is requested, when its really not.
But while I'll agree to that frustration, I wouldn't limit it or focus it on middle school sports.
And I'd also say that by and large they do a pretty darned good job at running the schools without that parental input/impact. So who's to say they are wrong?
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"Not sure I get your point?? Which part of the way our childrens school is run is "small taters"? The fact that they can find money for redundant sports programs while cutting reading specialists? Or is it that they can feel to free unfairly cut programs without any input from the "customers"?"
Redundant sports programs? This is subjective isn't it? Again, I understand your point....but a football or basketball parent probably looks at you like your nuts. Or, like soccer parents look at lacrosse parents when they lobby for inclusion, field space and funding.
This is a football country and SC is prime and fertile turf. Many, many people.......see no problems with exactly whats going on. My guess is.....very few people give a flip about middle school sports at all and those that do are probably locked in on football, basketball and volleyball. A loud few cry unfair, unfair....for most this is a tempest in a teapot.
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Tempest in a Teapot it may be but those who are willing to stir the pot have a better chance of getting their share than those who will sit back like lambs and await the edicts from on high. Sheep tend to get sheared or worse  I intend to at least exercise my right to influence the process and even if it is a small vocal group, those who feel they are fighting for fairness tend to be the most committed and get results!
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Fort Mill Schools: Furloughs gone, spring sports back in plan The (Rock Hill) Herald June 16, 2009 by Toya Graham http://www.heraldonline.com/front/story/1411815.htmlMiddle school sports saved, "Pay to Play" increases to $75 a head.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Well sort of. This was only the proposal we still have two weeks for the board to look it over and decide, second reading will also be a public meeting. The $75 may or may not happen. Looks like they found $30,000 out of the stimulus money to fund all the spring sports.
Funny this is $30,000 out of a $67 million budget for spring sports that allows a couple hundred kids to play (remember 4 team at 3 schools) seem like such a small amount. IMHO they could have found close to that amount consolidating those 7th grade team into 8th grade teams. Parents speaking at meeting seemed to understand the need to make cuts but wanted board to make them FAIR and across the board rather than picking out one group of athletes.
Seems like the spring sports are safe but only time will tell. We will continue to watch and remind the board that we are watching!
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Crazy.
Not meaning to sound like Mark Sanford....but we're taking borrowed money and using it so that 7th and 8 graders can play middle school sports?
Taking borrowed money to keep cops on the streets and teachers in the classrooms to me is ok. Its like using your credit card to buy groceries for your family when knowing you can't pay off the balance. But to take stimulus money to fund middle school sports or any sports for that matter....is equivalent to using your ccard to pay for a vacation or to go buy tickets to a football game or go have an extravagant dinner, knowing you can't pay the tab. Its irresponsible.
Wanting....and needing.....are two different things. Its time we step up to the plate on this stuff or we're heading for disaster.
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Well said, Daddy.
Fiscal responsibility extends way beyond the simple discussion of high school and middle school sports.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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I totally agree!
While unpopular I would suggest that if reading specialist need to be cut then perhaps we should look at cutting sports! The problem I had/have was they were/are unfairly cutting sports! In my book I would cut them all or cut them across the board, but I would never single out one gourp of players and tell them they do not deserve (as in lose their team) a sport when I am keep so many others.
Make across the board cuts in non-educational programs and while some people may complain that it is not "fair", they will have to admit it is "even"!
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429
hat-trick
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hat-trick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429 |
This morning's Charlotte Observer reports CMS looking to cut middle school sports. All of them.....if I read the article correctly.
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 532
goal
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goal
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 532 |
what season does the middle schools play, spring, fall or both?
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Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,509
hat-trick
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hat-trick
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 1,509 |
Quote:
what season does the middle schools play, spring, fall or both?
All public schools in SC play soccer in the Spring. Some private schools play in the fall but most private schools play in the spring as well.
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