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Joined: Dec 2006
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Corner Kick
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Corner Kick
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 317 |
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can a MS coach or a JV coach take a non Club player and "develop" them into being able to successfully compete with a Northwestern or Fort Mill or Wando or Irmo or Mauldin or Dorman....and the answer is no. Never in heck.
I take exception to this statement. My middle school guys, 7th and 8th only, played in the highest bracket of the Irmo JV End of Season against Dutch Fork JV, Irmo JV, and White Knoll JV. Ask them if I have them prepared for high school.
DF was goofing off before our game thinking hey a MS this should be easy. THey scored on a PK in the 1st to lead 1-0. It was on a break away late in the 2nd that sealed it at 2-0. WE controlled the ball and played on their half of the field.
Irmo is great. They put 3 goals on us in the 1st 5 minutes (2 corners and a throw in near the corner). But we played hard and physical and an Irmo kid got frustrated and got a red card. We played great from box to box. And we even scored on them right before half. We lost 3-1. But raise your hand if you scored on Irmo JV's 1st string. They are a great team.
WHite Knoll came out puching us around and intimidated us in the first half as we were down 3-0 but we scored to open the 2nd and had many opportunities to come back.
Dont tell me I do not prepare my guys for those teams when the WK coach comes up to me and says that Spring Valley will be very good with these guys in the future. Remember just 7th and 8th graders going toe to toe with the top 3 teams in the Yellow bracket.
I was blessed to have Antione Parris play on my team for 1 year. When Dave Clark made a comment in the paper that middle school soccer did not teach physical play I turned it up. We try to play JV teams but they dont want a middle school team. This goes for both the boys and girls teams. We love the underdog role and want to beat these high school JV kids.
If you want these teams to be good they have to play good teams. Get the coaches involved in the SCHSSCA and the clinics. Let them play higher competition and stop being scared to schedule them. We are treated just like a JV team.
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Joined: Feb 2006
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hat-trick
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hat-trick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429 |
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Long story short...if you say "MS and JV soccer alone aren't likely to prepare a team to beat Wando and Mauldin," then I'll agree. If you say "MS and JV don't help to develop players for high school ball" as a general statement, I would wonder exactly what it is that the MS and JV coaches are doing.
Probably the same as most well meaning rec coaches....the best they can. Provide an environment for the kids to have fun, learn a great game, pull on their school jersey, build some memories. Just like Little League.
2 of my 20 JV's from last year played varsity this past year (both club players). I'll go out on a limb and guess that of my 20 this year...maybe another 3-4 will play varsity nxt year. All but 1 club players...and that 1 is playing this year.
The vast majority of my kids over the last 2 years did NOT play club. 5 of 20 this year.....most of them are unlikely to ever play varsity until their senior year, if then.
Our jv went from 6-7 last year to 17-2-1 this year. We played hard and at times played good soccer. Our school is NOT Northwestern.....but to be one of the 18 best on varsity you still need to be athletic and a decent player. As in, decent club player. The gap between a good 4A jv team and a mediocre 4A varsity team is surprisingly large.
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hat-trick
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hat-trick
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Ok, I'll back up a half step as well...I think perhaps we're talking about two different systems of value. If the point of high school ball is to win--and I won't argue against that at all--and the only standard for winning is to beat Wando or Irmo or Northwestern or Fort Mill or Dorman, or B-E for that matter--then I'll agree, JV and MS participation alone probably isn't going to get the job done, and I'd also have to say a lot of high school programs in this state might as well just hang it up, because it is comparatively only an elite few who compete at that level. I have said more than once that it is unrealistic to expect to compete with players who put in a long-term, year-round investment in the sport unless you are willing to make a comparable investment.
On the other hand, there are measures of success in HS ball that don't necessarily culminate in state championships...which is a good thing, or otherwise there would be only three girls' and four boys' teams that are successful per year. If we are talking about development--which, if you truly are doing it to make kids better, cannot be irrespective of results--then anything that makes a team more competitive than it was before is a help. If the difference is playoffs vs. no playoffs, last in the region vs. middle of the pack, losing 15-0 to Wando vs. losing 3-0, and maybe developing a player here and there who can go on to play at the next level rather than just marking time till graduation, then there are definitely developmental opportunities there that can make a difference in overall team performance and self-perception. My stance is against taking an "all or nothing" view that if it's not winning championships, it's not helping at all and therefore isn't worth doing. Again, everyone isn't in the same situation, so it's more about the relative value of things than a single absolute value that can be applied across the board.
I don't disagree with much of what you write. Obviously only 1 4A school won a boys championship (or girls) and I would never say the rest of them were failures or underachieved. Nothing wrong with small victories and/or incremental improvement.
But again.....my opinion is that a kid that only plays rec soccer or middle school soccer is unlikely to make much of an impact at JV, unless they are very athletic and hardnosed. And even those kids.....find it hard to make the leap to varsity.
In most cases....kids that are key contributors on high school teams play club. Do they learn from their school coaches and experiences? Of course!! But the lions share of their development took place at club or at the home if they come from a playing family.
These are my experiences.
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Joined: Feb 2006
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hat-trick
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hat-trick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,429 |
Quote:
Quote:
can a MS coach or a JV coach take a non Club player and "develop" them into being able to successfully compete with a Northwestern or Fort Mill or Wando or Irmo or Mauldin or Dorman....and the answer is no. Never in heck.
I take exception to this statement. My middle school guys, 7th and 8th only, played in the highest bracket of the Irmo JV End of Season against Dutch Fork JV, Irmo JV, and White Knoll JV. Ask them if I have them prepared for high school.
DF was goofing off before our game thinking hey a MS this should be easy. THey scored on a PK in the 1st to lead 1-0. It was on a break away late in the 2nd that sealed it at 2-0. WE controlled the ball and played on their half of the field.
Irmo is great. They put 3 goals on us in the 1st 5 minutes (2 corners and a throw in near the corner). But we played hard and physical and an Irmo kid got frustrated and got a red card. We played great from box to box. And we even scored on them right before half. We lost 3-1. But raise your hand if you scored on Irmo JV's 1st string. They are a great team.
WHite Knoll came out puching us around and intimidated us in the first half as we were down 3-0 but we scored to open the 2nd and had many opportunities to come back.
Dont tell me I do not prepare my guys for those teams when the WK coach comes up to me and says that Spring Valley will be very good with these guys in the future. Remember just 7th and 8th graders going toe to toe with the top 3 teams in the Yellow bracket.
I was blessed to have Antione Parris play on my team for 1 year. When Dave Clark made a comment in the paper that middle school soccer did not teach physical play I turned it up. We try to play JV teams but they dont want a middle school team. This goes for both the boys and girls teams. We love the underdog role and want to beat these high school JV kids.
If you want these teams to be good they have to play good teams. Get the coaches involved in the SCHSSCA and the clinics. Let them play higher competition and stop being scared to schedule them. We are treated just like a JV team.
Coach JB, I don't know you from Adam.....but my team lost to Irmo 1-0 in the finals of the pre-season tournament. I meant no disrespect to your coaching or your team. It sounds like you had a fine young team.
My points.......are that your team was the exception and not the rule. My 4A jv team played and beat a 1A varsity team twice. It doesn't mean a thing other than we were better than that one team.
My guess would be......that with all those top young 7th-8th graders....many of them play club. I had the good fortune to watch Antoine Parris in a playoff game this Spring and he was a very good soccer player. I hear he is an Academy player now. My guess is he wasn't introduced to soccer at the age of 12-13.
Congrats on a great season!!!
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Joined: Dec 2006
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Corner Kick
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Corner Kick
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 317 |
[quote
My guess would be......that with all those top young 7th-8th graders....many of them play club. I had the good fortune to watch Antoine Parris in a playoff game this Spring and he was a very good soccer player. I hear he is an Academy player now. My guess is he wasn't introduced to soccer at the age of 12-13.
Congrats on a great season!!!
Thanks. I was blessed this year with 2 move ins, one of which hadnt played soccer in several years but was a major contributor. And I do promise you that Antoine never should have played MS. After 5 years of coaching the MS, I have only seen 1 that could even possibly come close to that natural talent.
Most of them didnt play club last year. but I do know that most of them did try out and make it this year. But what we do is run it like a high school program with hosting a camp, many go to USC's camp together, off season conditioning, and many play indoor together. I encourage them to either try out for club or atleast keep playing rec. And I will also admit that most schools dont do hardly any of that.
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hat-trick
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hat-trick
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Wow. You have significant numbers of non-club players whose parents shell out hundreds of dollars for their kids to do the USC camp? I have club players....whose parents don't/can't/won't do that.
We've kind of gotten off track. I guess the point was...with budget crackdowns are middle school sports really that important? Obviously the kids enjoy it so thats nice. But should they be funded? And my premise is no.
In sports like basketball.....the younger age groups serve as filters for eventually the varsity team. I see a lot of kids playing soccer at the lower levels who have no chance of playing varsity. BBall players.......for the most part don't take up the game at age 12. Or quit at 10...and pick it up again at 13. I see that a lot around here with soccer.
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Joined: Feb 2005
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world cup
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world cup
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659 |
I agree with Daddy. When funds get short and the belt needs to be tightened, you can drop MS soccer without an adverse effect to the high school program.
If the kids are good enough, they will make the JV (at least by 8th grade). They will also continue to develop their game by playing competitive club soccer, if it is offered in their area.
The tax payers do not need to shoulder the additional burden if the money isn't there. If times are good, middle school soccer is a great opportunity for kids to represent their school and have fun playing with their classmates.
Another thought......
How many players do you need to develop, per class, in order to have a competitive high school program? Generally speaking, on the girls side, if you have four players per class that excel in high-level club soccer, you have the ingredients for a championship team.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 317
Corner Kick
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Corner Kick
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 317 |
BD, Sorry for my tangent. I hope you understand my passion for what I do. I know that Hurst is aware of it. I only get 5-8 that go to USC's camp, but it does help build not only thier skills but the "team" as well.
I guess I am not fully aware of what moneys are recieved by high school programs from the tax payers. Again the only money we get from our district other than the start up costs 5 years ago is transportation to 5 games within out school district. We are fully self supporting.
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Joined: Feb 2005
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world cup
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world cup
Joined: Feb 2005
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Jb,
You do a great job with your program and I wish you continued success. I hope you can get some matches with Gold Hill, Fort Mill and Springfield.
Are you still in the same uniforms that you got five years ago? Who pays for uniforms, equipment, referees and coach's salary at your school?
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
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Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Hurst, BD--I certainly don't disagree with what you are saying, especially in context of the perspective from which you are saying it. Any disagreement, I think, comes from use of broad, generalizing statements that may not apply equally to all programs in all situations.
Please understand that I am not trying to equate the average MS or JV team with a high-quality club experience. It's hard, looking at a question from a place where club is a natural part of development and taken for granted within the high school soccer culture, to see the effect other options can have if club play is not an option for many players. For a well-developed program where the players and parents take club ball as a matter of course in development and a full team of club players can be fielded, I would agree that middle school and even JV programs would have a minimal effect, and at least MS could be dropped with little if any adverse effect on the varsity team, because the serious players (who would end up making the varsity cut and probably squeezing out most of the MS team players in the long run) would be playing at their clubs at that point anyway.
For the many programs in the state that don't operate under these ideal situations, however (read: you can't outsource; either develop 'em yourself or you don't get 'em), middle school and JV teams, if done right with competent, conscientious staff, would make a heck of a lot more impact on the development of a varsity team than the clubs many of their players can't afford the time and money to invest in, and in hard times, a free option through the school is more likely to gain parental support than telling them they have to come up with hundreds and even thousands of dollars per year in order to hope to make varsity. Sometimes it's only after getting involved in the sport through a free option at a young age that a player realizes the desire and aptitude to get better; it's then that they (and their parents) can be convinced to invest that money and effort in club development. I agree that 7th and 8th graders can participate on JV teams without the need to fund a separate middle school team when times are tough...all of our 7th and 8th graders play on an equally-unfunded JV squad.
Again, I know these arguments don't apply to schools where club is simply a part of the culture and goes without saying, but for those who don't have a strong base of club players to pull from, development means using every option at your disposal to get the job done at home--and that means getting as many students playing and learning at as early an age as possible. Maybe a team in that situation won't ever win state--but it shouldn't be from a lack of using every tool at their disposal to make it happen, and that means placing importance on development through the school programs for those who can't afford to get it somewhere else.
I've got good news and bad news...
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