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Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,457
Hat-Trick
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Hat-Trick
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,457 |
To me the best way to look at it is as follows
I am fairly certain that all schools in SC have courses divided into levels for example honor classes, AP courses, college credit or whatever you call it, and regular classes.
if Billy qualifies for the higher level class is it not in Billy's interest to attend said class?
So the school system recognizes that there are students and then there are students.
You do not place Billy in the same class as Bobby simply because the speed of learning is not conducive to Billy's or Bobby's development (depending on how you look at it- too fast or too slow).
So why would sport be any different? For starters Billy and Bobbby are in the same team but not of equal skill. Would the coaching be geared to the better player or the worse player? So practicing 5 days a week trying to get everyone else up to a level some have already achieved may not be best for their development but better the lower players.
In the end it depends on what you are trying to achieve...HS sports have many pros that clubs do not have and vice versa. It is all in the eye of the beholder.
So give it a rest...as someone has already stated it is a dead horse.
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 409
Goal
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Goal
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 409 |
Quote:
So can someone shed some light as to the model in England? How do the youth there grow up in relation to club ball vs school ball etc.?
Can't speak for England, but I can for the German exchange student we had living with us.
There was no such thing as a school team, only club (they don't call it club, but I forget what they do call it).
The "club" team was almost like a mini professional league. Didn't pay them, but provided things for them (help with future "university" costs, housing, transportation,...etc)
As a side note: He absolutly loved playing high school ball. He was amazed how close knit the players were to each other. He commented he was closer to his high school team mates (that he only played with for a few months), than his German teammates that he had played with for years.
“It’s the most wonderful time of the year”
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
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Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
As a side note: He absolutly loved playing high school ball. He was amazed how close knit the players were to each other. He commented he was closer to his high school team mates (that he only played with for a few months), than his German teammates that he had played with for years.
And there, IMHO, is the real beauty of it...the side of soccer that fosters passion for team and camraderie for teammates rather than just constant pressure for individual achievement.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 688
goal
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goal
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 688 |
A touch is a touch, even a bad one...IF the player is trying to learn. Kids can explore different positions and have fun and still compete. I am sure some of the 20 some matches teams have are competitive, except for those who can recruit... but that is another thread all together.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 654
goal
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goal
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 654 |
You just HAD to bring up the "R" word, didn't you...
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 357
corner kick
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corner kick
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 357 |
Quote:
Quote:
High School teams practice 5-6 days a week.
Clubs practice 2 maybe 3 times a week.
How can more touches on the ball impede someones development??
I have had this discussion a lot lately with club coaches discouraging kids from playing middle school ball. They say that the kids that leave our practices and arrive at theirs dont have the intensity that is needed. I agree that more touches is better for the kid.
The other arguement is that club kids play 37 games plus the 2 practices a week is too much for the kids on top of the school commitment. I was told that there are studies showing how physically it is bad for them.
I wonder how the Blythewood Middle girls did last year with club since that is what most of them were. Were there any extra injuries or fatigue due to them playing school and club.
im not sure about girls, they are physically different.
but i remember when i was in like 5th grade back in the homeland.
we had 4 practices a week with the academy. games on sundays.
4 breaks of 15 minutes at school, all of them were used to play futbol at the bk court with a plastic ball.
not to mention we came back from practice at 6 pm, eat, do homework then go out to the street with the boys to play some more til like 9pm, but again that is latin america, a different culture ; )
by the end of the night watching la liga and seria a goals next to grandpa, waiting for the next day to arrive so more futbol could be played hahaha
Club of the century.
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 357
corner kick
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corner kick
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 357 |
Quote:
If you mean that instead of a spring school season there was just a spring club season (or fall in NC or elsewhere). Then I think the answer is obviously a yes.
However if you want to grow the sport you need to get people involved and watching the games and build a better understanding of the sport in the public. High school programs are building a fan base for a better future for the sport, hell when I was a kid (will leave the decade out) many high schools (even the big ones) did not even have soccer as a sport now most do.
I think the school programs with solid club support are still going to improve players (unless we move to the aforementioned club season twice a year). If anything I would like to see the rules set up to allow/encourage club play by schools based teams, not official school team of course but one whose coach and players could be mostly from a school if they wanted to. After all football has an officially approved spring/summer training season, really all year for top programs, yet we hamstring are players by making a hard line separation between club and school.
Yes I know there are $$$$ and other problems with this approach but I think that given a goal to achieve it some of the bright people here and around the state could come up with answers to the problems.
In the end the benefit would be to the players and the sport and of course the answer to the question would then be "Of Course Not!"
i see high school football and i get excited, not only i like and understand the american game, but if soccer ever gets that big in high school, it will be awesome, the last game between irmo and northwestern was insane, i dont think i have ever experienced anything like that in a high school game, it was simply amazing.
i have seen high school football games on espnU where they have teams from florida playing vs teams from california, i wonder how that works?
i used to watch this other reality show on mtv where kids from some high school from alabama claim to be the "best" football program in the nation, every game to them was very hard and competitive.
i dont understand how somebody cant see that picture in high school soccer.
you get an elite competition going, 15 quality games all season, not more 7-0 boring games, not more empty stadiums and top programs humilliating high school with not soccer tradition and not soccer interest.
once high school soccer goes elite, then i would have a lot more respect for american soccer.
high school ball could be very essential to take the next step, to get to the next level of the brazilians and italians.
high school soccer has the hype, fans, media. now we need quality competition, elite competition.
Club of the century.
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Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 202
corner kick
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corner kick
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 202 |
Quote:
As a side note: He absolutly loved playing high school ball. He was amazed how close knit the players were to each other. He commented he was closer to his high school team mates (that he only played with for a few months), than his German teammates that he had played with for years.
My son feels that way about his club team. His club team is our "soccer family". They are together practicing from June until December and in the spring still practice a little and play in several tournaments just to stay together. My son also hangs out with several teammates from different schools even on weekends when they are not playing. Most of the boys have been together for 4 or 5 years and in some cases longer. When you travel most every weekend from August to November you develop a closeness you are describing. They really hang out alot together on these trips and you can see that even though they go to 8 or 10 different high schools they still really like and respect each other.
So I guess my point is club teams can have that close knit feeling even though they don't go to school together.
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 855
brace
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brace
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 855 |
Given the system we have, the way to move soccer toward football's status in high school would (IMHO) be to encourage a training season in the fall like football has in the spring. My understanding is there a rule about school coaches and players on club teams as well as out of season practice.
I wonder how these rules compare to spring/summer training rules for football?
Do they not have a spring football Jamboree in many areas? How about fall soccer Jamboree?
Also here in the upstate they have both 7th and 8th grade football teams, while most schools have no soccer in middle school! Looks like Rock Hill schools will be moving to combined 7/8th grade team next year, but still no soccer. I think over the next few years the schools that have had middle school soccer will start to show some program improvements, going on third year for Clover and Fort Mill school Dist's. They even get to play some smaller school JV teams.
While I know the gods of HS football want no competition for facilities I would think there could be a way to find time and place for increased playing/practice for HS soccer teams.
As a final thought, I have always been told HS football is a money maker for schools. Just imagine what the profit margin for the lower overhead sport of soccer would be if they could grow the popularity of the HS game. Not to mention that the fields would be generating revenue in spring and fall!
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
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Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Chief,
Just to make the speculation concrete, here are the rules straight from the SCHSL on practices in and out of seasons:
DEFINED SPORTS SEASONS
The following terms will be used and will apply to all sports:
IN-SEASON
Begins first day of legal practice and ends with elimination from state play-off competition. Organized
practice is left to the discretion of each school.
OUT-OF-SEASON
Strength and conditioning programs will not be affected by the limitation on practice seasons.
Conditioning programs are not to include agility drills that enhance specific skills for a given sport, nor
may equipment for any sport be used. Agility drills appropriate for all sports will be acceptable.
Practice and weight training must be open to all students. These sessions cannot be mandatory for any
student.
Any student participating in an illegal practice will be declared ineligible for that sport season. Any
school allowing an illegal practice will be subject to League discipline to include the placing of the sport
on probation.
B-6
1. Open-Season/Open Facility (2008-2009 School Year)
a. June 1 - July 25, 2009 for Fall sports. (July 26-29, 2009 is Closed Season)
b. June 1 - July 31, 2009 for Winter and Spring sports.
2. Open-Season/Open Facility (2009-2010 School Year)
a. June 1 - July 24, 2010 for Fall sports. (July 26-31, 2010 is Closed Season)
b. June 1 - July 31, 2010 for Winter and Spring sports
** See note on Page B-6
NOTE: Ten days of school against school competition are permitted
June 1 - July 24, 2010. Participation at team camps and other outside organizations is
included in these 10 days. No school will be permitted to attend or participate in team
camps between July 25, 2010 and In-Season.
School facilities will be open to all students and coaches who may be involved with the planning and
monitoring of activities, including organized practice, during these time periods.
Participation cannot be mandatory for any student.
CLOSED SEASON
Any time except In-Season and the Open Season/Open Facility dates listed above. During closed
seasons, school facilities cannot be used for anything except conditioning and weight training.
OTHER REGULATIONS
a. Activities that take place during the school day are local matters and are not affected by
these regulations. However, any activity involving prospective athletes during the school day
must be open to all students.
b. School facilities may not be used after school hours during closed season by students of a
school except if they are members of an outside team clearly sponsored by an outside
agency. If an outside team uses school facilities during a closed season, no coach
(including volunteer coaches) from that school or its feeder school may be associated with
that outside team. Coaching outside teams during a closed season is permissible provided
school facilities, including those of feeder schools, are not used and the 75% rule is not
violated. (Refer to A-29 for details on the 75% rule.) Beginning March 25, a coach may
coach an outside team and use school facilities.
c. Outdoor facilities normally available to the public will not be restricted by these regulations on
non school days. In other words, if it is the normal practice of the school to allow the general
public to use these facilities on the weekends, there will be no violation if more than three
students are present, provided there is no coach present, and there is no attempt to facilitate
practice.
d. A coach may accompany prospective team members to a camp or clinic during a closed
season, but may not be involved with teaching skills to his or her own players.
e. Organized practice is defined as the gathering of a coach(es) and more than the number of
student-athletes (per sport program) listed on the chart below for the purpose of teaching
sport specific skills. It also includes the use of school facilities by more student-athletes (per
sport program) than those listed on the chart below:
Volleyball (4)
Tennis (3)
Cross County (3)
Golf (3)
Football (8)
Swim (3)
Competitive Cheer (15)
Wrestling (11)
Basketball (3)
Lacrosse-Girls (9)
Lacrosse-Boys (7)
Baseball (7)
Softball (7)
Soccer (8)
Track & Field (3)
Now we come to those magic SCSHL words--"EXCEPT FOR FOOTBALL..."
FOOTBALL
5. Practice Information:
a. A school shall not permit contact practice in pads or otherwise between its last game and
August 4. Pads include padding of any kind on the shoulders, hips or thighs.
NOTE: Schools are permitted 10 days of practice between the last 30 school days and the
first two weeks after the closing of school.
 The first three (3) days of spring practice (and the first three days of fall practice)
will be in helmets only.
 During the first three (3) days of “helmets only” practices, sleds and ground
dummies may be used.
 No hand shields, arm shields, and/or stand up dummies of any kind may be used
during the first three (3) days of spring or fall (pre-season) practice.
 During any practice(s) beyond the first 3 days of spring practice, a coach may
equip his players in any combination of pads that he prefers. (Schools are not
required to be in helmets only or in full pads only; any combination may be used.)
During this time, seven (7) days, the use of all football equipment is permitted.
 If a middle school holds spring practice on the same dates that the high school
holds spring practice, it will count as the same practice for the high school. If the
middle school holds spring practice on dates other than those of the high school,
those dates will count toward the 10 allowed dates for the high school.
 Middle school students may NOT take part in the high school practices, if players
are wearing any equipment other than helmets. If players are equipped with more
than helmets, middle school athletes must hold their practices apart from the high
school. (They could be on the same field, but away from the high school practices.)
 Rising 9th graders, (8th graders), are NOT 9th graders until school is out for the year,
thus they may NOT take part in contact drills of the high school.
 Schools MAY NOT charge admission for a spring practice (game)
So, under SCHSL rules, football may have ten days of off-season practice (Spring) but soccer may not have off-season practice (fall).
Also, in the first section, see:
OTHER REGULATIONS
a. Activities that take place during the school day are local matters and are not affected by
these regulations. However, any activity involving prospective athletes during the school day
must be open to all students.
Which means, the "weightlifting" classes for football (which are open to other athletes to apply for) can be used for fall practice and since they are part of the regular school day are not restricted by SCHSL practice rules.
I've got good news and bad news...
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