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I happened to witness the Hampton Park vs Oakwood Christian girls high school match last night. Before the match, both teams met at center circle and Hampton Park's coach made some welcoming remarks and led the girls in prayer.
The score of the match was fairly lopsided but I noticed the score didn't matter to either team. Even though one team was being soundly defeated, there were plenty of shouts of encouragement from fellow players and the coaching staff - and there was laughter and smiles from both teams.
There were a few inadvertent fouls called on both teams but not many - I heard teammates from both teams asking the other team members if they were ok, after having been fouled. There were no cards shown and no whining at the refs. No parents coaching from the sidelines or "making their feelings known". After the game, each team member shook hands with the other team.
It was an afternoon of playing sports for the sheer fun of being out on the field. I could not have been more impressed with the kids from both teams as well as the coaches.
In retrospect, it would seem that the singular act of both teams circling at midfield prior to the game with a sincere prayer led by a coach set the tone for the entire evening. For me, it was a perfect example of what's right and wrong in sports today.
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I agree!!! Unfortunately public school coaches are not permitted to lead prayer with their players. Huge loss for high school sports and the athletes involved.
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Just food for thought, but keep in mind the student-athletes who are either not religious at all or not of the same denomination as the prayer being said. If you're at a religiously based school, you kind of signed up for it, but at a public school it is incredibly uncomfortable to have to stand in on a prayer that everyone else on the team is doing or pretending to do. Very few people would be willing to speak up about their discomfort and no one is going to be disrespectful and be the only person with their back turned or not in the circle.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; [it] is also what it takes to sit down and listen.
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It's great to see two teams just out to have fun, especially when the games are lopsided.
I support the Woodruff guys, and the team was very concerned about playing Southside Christian for their first game. In the past the game has always been very dirty from both sides. There were very few fouls called in the game this time.
It was an obvious blow out as SSC scored 5 goals in the last 20 minutes of the first half. In the second half you got to see both benches play a lot, and you saw more smiles then any other game this season. It's great to see the kids having so much fun, even in the games like these.
I have respect for any team that can stay calm in a blow out game, no matter which side of the score you're on.
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Hmmmmm We pray before every game.... I am such a rebel.
Then again...I know lots of other teams that do so as well.
Keeping in mind the Founding Fathers- Majority Rule with respect for Minority Rights does not mean denying the Majority its own Rights.
tk
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Is there a tougher schedule in the state than this? I've never seen so many "red ranked" numbers on one team's schedule. http://www.eurosportscoreboard.com/cgi-b...=&Password=Wow! 
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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I really like the idea of the two teams praying together before the game to set the tone. We always pray as a team before and after games, but not usually with the other team. Sometimes, when possible, we'll pray with our opponents after the game. However, what a great way to "set the tone" as you put it!
After all, God gave us the ability to play the game. I believe we should honor Him in the way we play. As our guys coach likes to say, "Whether we win or lose, we will play our hardest for the glory of God!"
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Tony, you may want to spend a little more time researching the works of the founding fathers you admire so much!
I am with Kitten on this one!
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Hurst ...If Byrnes were to add some red numbers next to their name, Spartanburg, Mauldin & Dorman all would have tougher schedules!
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In this case I humbly submit that it is not the Founding Fathers who need to be researched but rather the multitude of legal decisions and/or interpretations of our Founding Fathers handiwork that have been handed down and subsequently overturned or upheld by our courts over the years and the precedence or law which those decisions in turn establish.
Have you ever seen the "meeting at the middle" after a game? Or a "meet me at the flag pole" before school? As this relates to sporting events, various courts have ruled that: An individual student or group of students is free to pray at a game. To prevent this would violate the student(s) free speech rights.
Teachers, coaches, etc. cannot lead a group prayer. To do so would be viewed as school endorsement of a specific religion, which is unconstitutional under the principle of separation of church and state.
(Doe v. Santa Fe Independent School District, 168 F.3rd 806 [5th Cir. 1999]) prohibited school-sponsored student prayer activity at sporting events. School-sponsored student prayer is prohibited by the constitution; student-sponsored student prayer is free speech protected by the constitution.
Soooo- If my girls want to pray before games, I can not tell them no. I guess this makes my girls the rebels then… AHH!! But then again-not really since its perfectly ok for them to do it eh?
tk
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Tony, I would ask you to google 'our founding fathers were not christians' but you might be best served if you just re-read kittens comments!
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You asked me to do a Google search and re-read Kitten's remarks- I did both
What I took from Kitten’s post was that they were not in favor of prayer at sporting events because it may be uncomfortable and even possibly alienating for some who are not of a religious nature. If I am wrong about that understanding I apologize.
Next came my statement that we pray before our games, and I made a snide remark about being a rebel which if you knew me would have been an inside joke because I am far from being a trouble maker.
Then came your comment to research the Founding Fathers a bit more and your support of Kittens position.
Next I gave my opinion that I thought it not so important to research what the Founding Fathers put forth but rather how their work has been interpreted and how those interpretations have subsequently been placed in to practice either through actual written law or judicial decisions and resulting precedence.
You asked me to do a Google search and re-read Kitten’s comments. I did both.
The search yielded lots of websites mainly skewed to a particular point of view which I neither condemn or condone with some websites with counter claims or points of view. Then, just for kicks and pretty certain of the result it would yield, I took out the work “not” and redid the search and again found lots of websites mainly skewed to a particular point of view which I neither condemn or condone with some websites with counter claims or points of view. Website searches –IN MY PERSONAL OPINION- are like statistics- they can usually be skewed to prove or disprove a position and while based in fact can often be misleading or down right incorrect.
The reexamination of Kitten’s remarks simply led me back to the same understanding as before- that they are not in favor of prayer at sporting events because it may alienate or make someone uncomfortable. I think that is a fine opinion to have. It is not in line with my own but a perfectly fine opinion to have.
I could be wrong but are you thinking that I am taking exception with Kitten’s position? If so, I assure you that is not the case, I was merely stating the fact that my girls do pray before games and poking some fun at the whole argument.
When I re-read your last post it seemed to me that you were turning the discussion towards an argument of whether or not Founding Fathers had a religious affiliation at all which is an entirely different and long road to hoe but ultimately with some potential bearing on this topic- sorry I just don’t have the energy to go down that row right now.
Let me end my contributions with this. If my girls want to pray before the game then we do. If a majority do not, then I guess we would not. Anyone who has a different routine or opinion, hey, that’s fine too!
tk
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Quote:
Teachers, coaches, etc. cannot lead a group prayer. To do so would be viewed as school endorsement of a specific religion, which is unconstitutional under the principle of separation of church and state.
(Doe v. Santa Fe Independent School District, 168 F.3rd 806 [5th Cir. 1999]) prohibited school-sponsored student prayer activity at sporting events. School-sponsored student prayer is prohibited by the constitution; student-sponsored student prayer is free speech protected by the constitution.
In actuality, this is simply an interpretation of the Constitution by a Supreme Court that happened to be sitting at the time. A little-known fact is that the words "separation of church and state" never appear in the Constitution; they are, again, an interpretation by a group of individuals who happened to hold power when the issue was reviewed.
The First Amendment simply says:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."
Now, I realize I'm not a lawyer; I'm just a simple soccer coach and English teacher, but I'd have to say it's a bit of a stretch to interpret "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" to actually mean "no coach can lead a prayer at a school athletic event" (I for one don't carry quite the weight of Congress and even my players don't take my word as absolute law), and to say that "nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof" means "you are prohibited by law to pray with your team if you happen to be a state employee" seems to be an even farther stretch, just from a rhetorical analysis perspective. The words of the amendment just don't match up with the application handed down by our modern legal minds.
Historical perspective on the founding fathers' most likely reasons for and intent of the amendment upon request.
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I agree with kitten and RECCOS on this one. Just because the majority of your team would like to pray doesn't necessarily make it right. Believe or not schools aren't and shouldn't be run like a democracy where majority rules. Kitten is right on in saying that if one or two people on the team were uncomfortable with praying before a game, then they would be reluctant to say anything about it because of the fact that they are by far the minority.
If everyone on the team has no problem with praying before a game then power to you, but most likely there might be one person who isn't comfortable doing it.That one person isn't going to come forward and say that they would rather the team not pray. I think it would be best that if your teammates felt like praying before the game, then they should say an individual prayer.
And just curious Coach Chass, are you questioning the Supreme Courts ruling?
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G'd up from the feet up
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Excellent discussion with thought and information rather than people throwing out insults and opinion as fact.
I wonder how the founding fathers, who were mostly Masons, would react to the thought that someone who wanted to lead a prayer session would be prohibited from doing so by their government. They were against state imposed/controlled religion, think Church of England or Catholic Church, not religion itself.
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Quote:
And just curious Coach Chass, are you questioning the Supreme Courts ruling?
On that specific ruling, absolutely. I see nothing in the wording of the amendment itself or in the historical context in which it was written to support that particular interpretation, only the political pressure brought to bear by more modern schools of thought.
For the record, I agree with Kitten that we are responsible for ALL of our players and students and shouldn't knowingly put them in positions where they may feel alienated. I also believe that if a team, as a group, asks in the huddle, "Coach, could you say a prayer with us" it's just as bad to say, "Nope, can't do it, that would be illegal."
I would also put forth that very few great things have ever been accomplished in this world without the possibility of maybe, somewhere, making someone of some particular school of thought somewhat uncomfortable. Just throwing that out there.
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Just because the majority of your team would like to pray doesn't necessarily make it right.
And also, by the same note, just because 6 out of 9 judges surveyed agree with a particular interpretation, that doesn't make it "right" either. It's of interest to note that three people with presumably the same credentials as the others (and much greater than I possess) also disagreed.
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Dread Scott was 7-2 and I would think most people would say they got it totally wrong on that one. The supreme court is more a reflection of the political mood of the country during which the justices were appointed rather than a reflection of the intent of the founding fathers.
"Living Document" vs "Strict Constructionist" is the current day battle but the theme is the same social engineering vs founding intent.
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By the way it was never overturned and technically stands a as ruling.
It was however made mostly irrelevant by the 14th amendment.
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I am with Tony on this one. My great uncle JW Rahde was chiefly responsible for having inscribed "In God We Trust" on American currency. Therefore, the religious fiber that flows through my veins will stand for what is right here. I do not expel or discriminate against any student/athlete for not praying with the team (the love of my Lord is strong). In fact, they may choose not to and I am okay with that. However, I have observed student/athletes over the years getting down on their team and showing no faith or hope to win a game when they feel they are over matched. I think you need a little faith, because without it there is no hope.
My captains lead a prayer before the game. If I get fired for believing in Jesus Christ, well... I am okay with that too.
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OH SHOOT….. and this is quick so I can get to work- there may be typos and incomplet thoughts but hopefully you will get the idea... I thought I was done but what the heck. To go along with what Chass is saying about the current legality or not of some such and such being based on the current OR THEN whims of the court depending on when the decision was made and who was sitting on the court is absolutely true. This is why appointment of federal Judges is such a big deal to the political party in office. Winning the Presidency or Congressional position is a “great win for the team” but when your team also gets to appoint a judge or two, especially a member of the Supreme Court…WOOHOOO… That’s like securing home field advantage until someone else steps down or dies leaving another vacancy on the court. There have been many instances when interpretation and direct amendment to the Constitution have changed the very fabric of the society in which we live. Roe v Wade.. 18th and then 21st Amendments which is a perfect example of a vocal minority getting out the vote to implement a change that the majority either did not care about or were specifically against, The 21st Amendment is democracy in action, overturning the 18th Amendment. Row v Wade is another example of course of times a changing. MANY people are trying to get that decision revisited. Here at home- have you ever heard of Briggs v. Elliott. I used to teach and live in the very town that all started in and actually knew families from both sides of that case. Things change as do times and course and opinions. Specifically regarding God since we are talking about prayer – just yesterday a San Francisco Federal Court upheld the right to say the pledge in school. BTW- the phrase ‘Under God” was not added to the pledge until 1954- it was written in 1892- things change http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100311/ap_on_re_us/us_god_and_governmentThe 1st Amendment also guarantees the freedom of assembly and petition and assembly for the purpose of redressing grievances- Hmmmm? OK- we no longer pray before games. We are ASSEMBLING to air our GRIVIENCES…. Interpretation….. Man this is fun- I think I just found my lesson for today!! tk
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I’ve got no problem with players praying and they should have a choice of praying to a “higher power” of their own choice. It gets off track when they are required to pray to “your” or "our" God or “your” or "our" Jesus. There are religions other than Christianity, you know and they should be respected, too.
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The problem with the thrust of that argument is that it is always assumed that the majority practicing in some way does not show respect to other religions. Thus saying those of the minority are being disrespected? How do you fight that? The "peer pressure" argument usually follows closely on the heals of the respect thing and down the slope we slide....
Wonder what they do at Notre Dame? If you are Jewish there but play football do you have to pretend to be Catholic? NO I know they don't but the absurdity of the thought seems like where those opposed to "prayer" see it ending up. I really wonder what they do there, and many other religiously based colleges?
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i dunno, maybe we shouldn't sidetrack god with our soccer games. he/she/it should probably focus on bigger issues around the world.
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WHAT!!!There is something bigger than SC Soccer?!?! Oh wait I get it your talking about the world cup aren't you!! Very slick of you to change the topic to world cup! Come on after all why do you think no one plays soccer in a dome?? Of course so God can watch! PS I am pretty sour you are going to blank for not capitalizing his/her/it's name!  
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whew- I usually sit back and learn from you guys here but I could not help but go back and reread the title to this thread. It says "set the tone"- somehow I was hoping to get some insight as to what you do to prep your teams for the mental state of mind and the focus needed to elevate the team to perform better than the collective singular. Seems as if somehow the thread shifted from ideals of work ethics, honor, character, good sportsmanship and love of competition to a discussion that by its very nature, cannot be defined for everyone.
My grandfather used to say (usually before one of us got into trouble- but it applys in lots of situations) "Son- down that path lies pain"- Both he and my father were ministers and I hold a deep sense of personal belief-key word being "personal"- every one has to come to their own terms and follow as best they are able, their personal savior's teachings.
I am not trying to step on anyone's beliefs or otherwise, but I would like to know some of the "rituals" you use to inspire your team to be on task mentally. What methods do you use to instill a consistant mental bearing before taking to the pitch.
Now, pass the popcorn...
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This is South Carolina...A church on every corner of every town big or small..
What is the prayer about before most sporting events?
Good sportsmanship..Player's safety.
The prayer lasts what? less than thirty seconds
I think it's more about repect and about the generations that did it before us..
I don't think Kitten had a problem with the prayer..Her problem was feeling forced or compelled to pray
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soccerforlife,
My daughter would always tune everything out a few minutes before each match and just concentrate on what she wanted to accomplish over the next ninety minutes..I think this has helped her focus more on the field.
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not to mention march madness, gods busy this time of year. 
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March madness?? is that the start of regular season 
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i wish my "less rain" prayers were being anwered
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I'm all for setting the tone with some positive remarks and encouragement. But, I have seen it become uncomfortable, and what I would consider inappropriate. It is not like the player has the option to leave the huddle or locker room when the coach starts to include his/her personal religious views in the pre-game talk.
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i just tell them to pass to the italian kid, saves time.
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I definitely want to have the option for a word of prayer before we play Wando this year.
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pray their bus breaks down
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I am as competitive as the next guy. Those who know me understand that all too well. However, when I pray before the game, I pray for wisdom, for God to keep the game in perspective for me and to the big picture of life, and for all of the young ladies to stay healthy. Regardless of what religion you are, there are some great history lessons of perseverance and courage in the Bible I use for inspiration. Check out the story of Johnathan in 1 Samuel chapter 14. I used this story when I coached our boys team two years ago when they were winless (0-17) for the season and their coach quit with one game remaining. They played an unbelievable game that went to overtime against a very good team. They did not win, but I believe most of them remember that story I gave at halftime. That was an AWESOME experience-man those young men played that night! I felt like I got to coach a team of "Jonathan's!" Anyone else have some stories to inspire? Start a new thread... hint, hint.
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I was trying to stay out of this because my main point was to make sure people realised that there are players of other denominations/religions/atheists/deists/etc. on teams, but some people have taken my comments out of context and I feel the need to clarify.
CHT is correct in saying that my problem is not with the prayer itself. If the players decide that they want to pray to God, Jesus, Yaweh, Mohammed, Krishna, the Mayan soccer gods, or to channel the spirits of Pele and Mia Hamm, I fully support them in (almost) whatever manner they choose--I figure a sacrificial goat at midfield might be crossing a line and messy to boot! My issue is with a coach arbitrarily deciding to lead a team in a specific religion's prayer and, in one case, put players on the spot by asking them to lead the prayer without them necessarily volunteering to do so. Almost no 16 year old is going to be willing to outright say, in front of a religious coach and teammates of varying religious intensities, that they refuse to lead the prayer or participate if only through sheer respect and/or fear of authority.
I have no quarrel with a majority that says they want some help with a prayer. My quarrel is with an environment that doesn't seek to make sure other people know that they're not expected to participate if they do not wish to do so such that they feel compelled to "fake it" to avoid trouble. Or even invite the girls to volunteer for a chance to say whatever they wish to say before a game. Differing views get respected and everyone has a chance to learn about another viewpoint. My team wasn't particularly diverse, but it would have been fascinating to see the religious and cultural differences in pre-game "rituals" if it had been. Then, no one feels left out and you learn tolerance and respect for everyone's particular faith.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; [it] is also what it takes to sit down and listen.
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Well put and it is the responsibility of the leaders; coach, administrators to ensure everyone feels no pressure.
As for the goat thing I have seen some crowds where I thought thats what they did before the visitors got there!
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Great discussion!
Chief, I had a ref the other night I wanted to treat like said goat!
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Quote:
If my girls want to pray before the game then we do. If a majority do not, then I guess we would not. Anyone who has a different routine or opinion, hey, that’s fine too!
tk
just trying to follow along... If while the majority of the team is gathered in a pre-game prayer a couple of players continue a pre-game routine of practicing shots on goal, that activity would fall under "hey, that's fine too!"?
What I'm trying to understand is by "Anyone" are you referring to participants in this thread or players not in the majority at the time of the team prayer.
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My team wasn't particularly diverse, but it would have been fascinating to see the religious and cultural differences in pre-game "rituals" if it had been. Then, no one feels left out and you learn tolerance and respect for everyone's particular faith.
I agree with the point you're making. And, while your team may not have been diverse, my daughter's carpool was. For four years (U-11 through U-14) I had the privilege of carrying three players to and from club practice. One was Protestant, one Jewish and one Catholic.
My privilege was to listen to those three young ladies as they discussed each other's customs and beliefs regarding their different holidays, etc. I never entered the conversations, just to be able to listen was special enough. Growing up as the friends they became they would attend each other's confirmations, bah mitzvah, etc., and compete fiercely together as teammates on the field.
It would have been a shame if after stepping out of the car they stepped into a pre-game "ritual" or environment that made one or another feel left out or uncomfortable, or worse jeopardized the open exchange of ideas and beliefs they enjoyed in the car.
Two of the players (Catholic and Jewish) went on to play together in high school. As do other teams their high school team also made accommodations for a pre-game prayer. However, to avoid the environment you describe here is how that team did, and still does, handle it.
If the team is to arrive at the locker room one hour before game time, those wishing to participate in a pre-game team prayer or devotion know to arrive 15-20 minutes early. Those arriving early participate in a pre-game team prayer in the locker room, and those not wishing to participate arrive at the scheduled 1 hour prior to game time.
The event takes place in the relative privacy of the team locker room rather than on the field and avoids the potential discomfort or pressure some of the team may have felt by not participating on the field.
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It sounds like many us have never been on a top competing team before. Every team I was a part of had many pre-game rituals. For example, Jim Tressell of Ohio State (great Christian BTW), has his team paired with a band member to play an instrument the night before a game to bond with the Band. I am sure many of the athletes feel awkward. However, it is not necessarily about their individual experience, but the experience as a team. My point here is there are various experiences that shape the way we are and who we are. Sometimes, for the benefit of the team, we have to set aside our differences to be of one mind. I guess if your team does not want to pray before a game then fine-I do not have a problem. My young ladies choose that as a whole and maybe someday it will end. I am thankful to my good Lord everyday that I have a chance to coach. I coach an awesome group of ladies. Gotta go, my youngest has to go to a writers conference in Irmo today. 
Last edited by Meredith; 03/13/10 01:08 PM.
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Most of the public school coaches' arguments found in this thread supporting pre-game prayer at state sponsored events can also be found in the decisions of various courts throughout the country including those decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court. Most, if not all, of those arguments were found to fail the tests of the "Establishment Clause". (TK, you will even find the argument based on "majority of players".)
Meredith, while I applaud the passion of your conviction of faith, the problem I, and possibly the Constitution, have with "we have to set aside our differences to be of one mind" relative to prayer is... who's "one mind". Although there seems to be some debate here, I do not believe the founding fathers believed ANYONE should be required by the state (which you represent if you coach at a public school) to "set aside our differences to be of one mind", when "one mind" is based on religion. The player/band member ritual is secular in nature, the pre-game prayer is non-secular. Apples and oranges when discussing the First Amendment.
Coaches, to get an idea of maybe why all of those court decisions came about ask yourself when was the last time your team's pre-game prayer was led in Yiddish. Perhaps pre-game prayer was a Buddhist chant, Gregorian chant, a meditation?
Someone here included in his/her post "I'm not a lawyer". Neither am I, but the father of the Jewish player from my carpool I spoke of is. Perhaps the state supported high school she attended decided to segregate mandatory secular and non-mandatory non-secular team events as I described in recognition of his career field. Or, maybe that particular high school had a greater understanding of the Constitution and respect for those court decisions regarding constitutionality than other schools around the state.
I think "I'm not a Lawyer" is significant here. From what I've been reading in the various court decisions, I would suggest the coaches at public high schools consult with the Legal office of the SC State Education System. Ask the state's attorneys their thoughts on public school's pre-game prayer activities. TK, they can't "fire you for believing in Jesus Christ", but it looks like they could do more than fire you for pre-game prayer activities.
We have some wonderful high school coaches in SC. I wouldn't want to lose them. But, from what I'm reading here and in the various decisions many of you could be one player away from losing the opportunity to coach those teams you care so deeply about.
Personally, I've never needed a coach to know when I should or shouldn't engage in prayer. And I've never needed a coach to teach me how.
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So that fact that coaches allow players to opt out of pre game rituals has no bearing on this?
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I got curious about laws and my very cursory search reveals:
There's no law regarding strict separation of Church and State, but legal precedent says that the State shall endorse no one religion over another. District Courts have refused the right of a coach to even sit in on a student-led prayer, much less lead one (Borden v. School District of the Township of East Brunswick) and his appeal of this decision was denied by the Supreme Court.
I'd search for more law and precedent because I think it's interesting, but I'm tired and going to go nap, lol.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; [it] is also what it takes to sit down and listen.
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Now, see, it's those decisions that confuse me. Refusing to let a coach even sit in on a student-led prayer sounds very much to me like a direct violation of "nor prohibit the free exercise thereof." I would love to hear a justification, because that decision just doesn't make sense. I agree that precedent is an often-used measuring stick, but it can be a dangerous one to use as the final answer; just because someone somehow came up with an off-the-wall decision years ago, does that mean it's right for all time? There are a lot of legal precedents (including the odd Constitutional amendment) that have later been judged to be, well, bad judgment, and have since been repealed.
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Quote:
So that fact that coaches allow players to opt out of pre game rituals has no bearing on this?
CHT, from what I'm reading the coach of the state sponsored team and event is considered an agent of the state. In line with what adidaskitten86 said, that allowing the event represents an endorsement of the event and possibly of one religion over another by the state through the coach, creating an "entanglement of religion and state" and a violation of the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
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Now, see, it's those decisions that confuse me. Refusing to let a coach even sit in on a student-led prayer sounds very much to me like a direct violation of "nor prohibit the free exercise thereof." I would love to hear a justification, because that decision just doesn't make sense. I agree that precedent is an often-used measuring stick, but it can be a dangerous one to use as the final answer; just because someone somehow came up with an off-the-wall decision years ago, does that mean it's right for all time? There are a lot of legal precedents (including the odd Constitutional amendment) that have later been judged to be, well, bad judgment, and have since been repealed.
Coach Chass, there is another case, a suit brought by 2 cheerleaders against UGA, that involved a variety of activities of the coach, some of which were considered by the courts as protected by the coach's rights to free speech and some of which were considered in violation of the Establishment Clause.
So as not to misinterpret the text of the decision in SANTA FE INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT v. DOE, I am including a link to the actual decision and opinions of the Supreme Court. Within the text of the decision you will find reference to a number of other cases including links to those decisions. In particular you may want to follow the link to Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U. S. 602, 612. It is the source of the "Lemon Tests" most often used to determine violations of the Establishment Clause.
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=000&invol=99-62
A lawyer in Tennessee, William A. Wooten, created an abstract, "The Coach’s Pre-Game Prayer: Probably Wrong But Feels Right", that references and tries to explain several of the case decisions relative to this thread. I find the abstract easier to follow, but I thought you needed the link above to the actual decisions, free of Mr. Wooten's conclusions, as well for accuracy. You will find references to the cheerleaders' case with UGA.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1443342
Three more points to make, and I'm done.
1... The more I study of these decisions that I think seem to be viewed by many as "religion killers", the more I believe the intent of the courts to be just the opposite. To be an attempt by the courts to ensure there is no coercion by the state that would impact or restrict any individual's freedom of religion as guaranteed by the Constitution.
2... We have every right to shout, picket, demonstrate, march, etc. for review and reversal of the decisions regarding pregame prayer. We're guaranteed that freedom of speech. However, once we step into that role as coach of a state supported athletic team, we become agents of the state and as such are required to act accordingly. Marching on Washington is currently considered constitutional. It seems pregame prayer is currently considered unconstitutional. If you wish to bring a new case to again test the constitutionality of pregame prayer, then continue the event and wait for the right student to show up.
However, before you embark on that endeavor, consider that as an agent of the state you alone would not be included in the suit. Your school or district would probably be named as defendant. In other words, you would not only be putting yourself at risk of suit (you may be that moved to dissent), you would also be putting your employer at risk. And, if only as a matter of courtesy you may want to find out how interested your employer is in joining you for the journey. That's why I suggested coaches discuss this with the state's or districts' legal offices.
3... Had it not been for other decisions of these same courts, you might not be coaching a girls' team today. I absolutely know Bob Winch would not be the current SOCON women's soccer coach of the year from The Citadel. Don't be too quick to take the justices out behind the wood shed.
Last edited by DeltaDog; 03/15/10 01:33 AM.
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DD,
Thanks for the detailed information; I'm about to look through it. I appreciate the effort toward objectivity! As to your following points...
1. It may indeed be the intent of the courts to protect rather than kill religion in all of its forms. It still seems, though, to foster the view that there is something "wrong" about expressing religion or faith (they aren't really the same, are they?) in public if it is too innappropriate to allow in school or at athletic events. If a coach or other representative of the state were to encourage one religious viewpoint while discouraging or demeaning another, then THAT would be something the Constitution is in place to protect against. I've always been of the belief that even if you don't share a person's faith, you should respect their right to it, as long as it doesn't bring harm to others. Sadly, yes, there are people who would abuse the privilege, and I guess the courts believe that the only way to prevent a few from abusing a freedom is to take it away from all. To me it seems like just another instance of "zero tolerance" philosophy; a coach sitting in by invitation on a student-led prayer in the huddle is the equivalent of mandatory prayer legislated by the government, just like a second-grader's butter knife packed in his lunch by a well-intentioned mother carries the same penalty as a switchblade in the pocket of a troubled teenager.
2. I personally do not lead prayers in the huddle nor marches on Washington. I have had teams who have requested to say a few words of prayer (student-led) for an injury-free game played with good hearts and sportsmanship. To me it would seem like a personal disrespect to their faith and a discouragement of their faith by a state agent if I were to remove myself at that moment and refuse to even stay within earshot. If the courts wish me to discredit my students' faith through pointed dissassociation, then they are no longer trying to protect religious expression. You will never find me trying to force my faith on others, but don't ask me to disrespect theirs or make it seem taboo.
3. You're absolutely right. The courts have made a lot of good decisions that have allowed some very positive progress in our nation. I'd like to think I've also made a number of good decisions that have led to positive things for the people around me.
Some things, though, I've gotten dead wrong. Nobody, no matter how worthy of respect, is above getting it wrong, and nobody, no matter how worthy of respect, is above getting called out on it. It's about the only way people learn to get it right. Remember, too, even though we tend to think of the Supreme Court as a single entity, for every decision we've mentioned, there have been members on that esteemed panel who believed the others got it dead wrong too.
If "precedent" meant the same thing as "right," imagine some of the things that would still be going on in this world today...
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Well, I just wrote a nice response after reading the material, thought it was pretty tidy, went to post it, was informed "the form you submitted is no longer valid" and the whole thing disappeared into the ether. Love this system. That'll teach me not to copy a long post before I try to submit it. In short, I agree with Santa Fe v. Doe in that the school used the "organs of government" (Justice Brennan), the school venue and the PA system, to present an overtly religious message. The other cases centered around coercion, "coach's behest," "no pray, no play" policies, and other ideas of obvious discrimination and pressure...not sure how this equates with a coach bowing his head after a student requests to give a short prayer with the approval of the team. That's a show of respect from an authority figure who, as Wooten himself points out, is a primary focal point for receiving just that...respect and approval. Note, too, that while the Third Circuit Court of Appeals disapproves of a coach bowing for a student prayer, the Supreme Court denied cert to this decision. And Wooten's argument that a moment of silence (with no further instruction) is the same as the state endorsing a religion based on "the intent of the coach in providing it" is really reaching. Let's face it; there is no true neutral ground. When students express their faith, they will infer either approval or disapproval from their coaches and teachers, depending on their response. If Wooten is right that the bowing of the head constitutes implied endorsement, then would walking away also imply disapproval? Is either approval or disapproval more acceptable than the other under the Establishment Clause? To analyze from a point of ethics rather than morals, which, in the context of a public school team, would do the more harm or good to the greater number of students? No absolute answers...but I guess the more questions people ask ourselves, the closer we can come to something approximating right, eh? At the very least, it's a good mental stretch!
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Oh, and for the record...
Berkeley High uses the Sportsmans' Creed to give that note of solemnity and responsibility to the game. My own pregame simply involves some variant of, "play hard, play with pride and sportsmanship, play for your team around you, and play like you love what you do."
Hope Washington is ok with that.
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Okeydoke… Great question from my Government class… you ready?
We have a Gospel Choir here at BHS. Is it unconstitutional then for the leader of the Gospel Choir to lead the Gospel Choir in a prayer before the Gospel Choir performs? Is the Gospel Choir unconstitutional if they only perform traditional Christian Gospel Music or if it is just “music” is it ok then? If it is ok for the Gospel Choir to perform “music” would it then be ok to “sing” a prayer and have it be just another “performance” that is then considered an “art” and not a prayer?
tk
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TK for Presedent!!! What a great discussion for a class! I am too busy trying to teach mine real world apps of the quadratic formula... man I wish I taught law ed!
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hmmmm.. Can the President lead ANYONE in a moment of prayer? Quadratic Formula???? Is that something like how many four wheelers a hunting club needs per member?   tk
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This really has turned into a great topic for class discussion; I've turned the situation with several different scenarios over to my AP Language class (most of whom are also in AP U.S. History and have had honors Econ and Government as well) for analysis, persuasion, and justification; they have really started to run with it and I'm getting some great perspectives. Great ready-made lesson plan!
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No fair, foul, what am I even talking about... Math guys, I need to relate it to math!
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If a train leaves Chicago every hour and heads for New York with 2 ACLU lawyers on every train and the trip takes 14 hours, how many lawsuits to prevent prayer will be filed within 27 hours?
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Quote:
... was informed "the form you submitted is no longer valid" and the whole thing disappeared into the ether...
As you might imagine, I get that a lot. Hit the arrow to return to the previous page, copy your text to the paste buffer, return to the thread, hit reply/quote/whatever to restart the process and then paste from the buffer.
TK, try changing your team's name to the BHS Gospel Soccer Team. That might give you what you're looking for.
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Yeah, tried that; usually it works, but this time when I hit the back button the text had vanished as well. Happens once every so often...oh, well, maybe that was just a sign that I needed to think carefully about what I typed.
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OK, quadratic equations: A quadratic equation with real or complex coefficients has two solutions, called roots. These two solutions may or may not be distinct, and they may or may not be real. A lawsuit based on the Establishment Clause and prayer in school has two solutions, called roots, based on freedom of speech and perceived discrimination. These two solutions may or may not be distinct, and they may or may not be real. In a quadratic equation, the "discriminant" is usually represented by the Greek symbol Delta, which is also in mathematics used to represent "difference in." In an Establishment Clause lawsuit, the difference in which solution is applied (Delta) should be whether the establishment is being "discriminant" (I know, I know) in its practices by endorsing one religious point of view over others. How's that for correlation? 
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Gospel Soccer team.... I just had the image of the girls warming up in Habits... can you imagine the uproar that would cause. (Habits are the headcoverings that nuns wear) Never actually saw the show but being able to fly around the field like Sally Field would sure come in handy; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flying_NunI wonder what injury would replace all my ACL troubles. tk
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Quote:
Gospel Soccer team.... I just had the image of the girls warming up in Habits... can you imagine the uproar that would cause. (Habits are the headcoverings that nuns wear)
Never actually saw the show but being able to fly around the field like Sally Field would sure come in handy; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Flying_Nun
I wonder what injury would replace all my ACL troubles.
tk
Habits are the full set of garments. I believe the headpiece is called a "coif". Watched that show every week. Hey, I've never seen them play, but maybe that's how Bishop England keeps racking up all those championships.
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Gospel Soccer team mmm... TK, maybe you could appoint a captain named Moses who would split the defense like the Red Sea and lead their team to the promise land! Oh wait, Moses never did make it to the promise land because the people complained too much of what had been provided for them. Some grumbling about Moses praying
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Our group must be out of touch... every Friday night, during the pre game stuff a young person would get on the load speaker and do a little speaking to the big guy, about this and that. Heard that at more than one place is SC this past year.
Our coach would always do it with the team before the game started, but that was a few..mmm... 26 years ago.
If it is that big a deal the "In God We trust" thing on our coins need to change. The penny, nickel, dime, quarter, and all the bills I had, are the same way.
I guess those folks who do not believe do not use money, either...
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I guess those folks who do not believe do not use money, either...
So, are you concluding that opposition to some forms of pregame prayer only comes from folks who do not believe in God?
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Technically, "In God We Trust" on money doesn't endorse one single religion over another. Christianity/Judaism/Islam all recognize the same god of origin as Brothers of the Book, just in different manners (take from that what you will). And most people don't pay it any attention as anything more than a token saying that we never think about unless someone brings it up or we're really bored and looking at coinage--or if you're just looking to make trouble.
I think most of the people arguing the "against" side aren't saying no prayer EVER...we just want to make sure that the environment is open and comfortable for everyone, not just those of that prayer's faith. And honestly, that is not an easy thing to do in general, especially in this case. Not many 15-18 year olds are going to be comfortable talking with a coach about alternatives for their faith or lack thereof, much less be the only one or two people who don't join a larger huddle on field in front of a crowd for a devotional. And it's hard to know how the coach/people will receive the information anyway. S/he could be the most devout person ever and completely open and non-biased to the idea or an "I'm only religious on Sundays" person and yet consciously or subconsciously hold it against them...and everything in between.
Yes, we want to teach our children tolerance, but if you're only teaching tolerance for one thing and not others...is it really tolerance you're teaching?
My main point is to just remind people that there are kids of other faiths and to be sensitive to them. You don't have to tell your kids they can't take their faith on the field, but find solutions that allow them options that don't require them to display it in the spotlight of the field with all the fans watching. Like DD said, meet early before the game for prayer, in the locker room or the parking lot or wherever, and then start warm-ups. Instead of having one specific prayer, let everyone go around in a circle and say a few words, whether they're to Jesus or Allah or God or Krishna or just to play hard and be happy. Or do an anonymous comments box or online vote and see if everyone's okay with what is being done and continue to do so.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; [it] is also what it takes to sit down and listen.
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NO, not at all... political correctness is just blowing it all out of prop. I was stretching it to make point. Those who try to block it are doing so for what reason? So their child will not be offended, or converted by a Baptist, saying a prayer, or any variation on that.?!?.?!?!? Please just take it as a weird point... those who want pure seperation of church and state, handle and use money every day... with "in god we trust" written on it, get the point? We as a country were partly founded on the belief, it is okay for different people to believe different things. Why has it changed so much? Will a 5 second prayer change any devote persons belief system? I doubt it. I have never heard a back handed comment over the PA system at any game any where, any time. Only once in a Baptist Church, and it just came out wrong... a lot like most of my posts. 
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Well said...
Strictly speaking some folks do not believe, in certain things... so the "in god we trust" is ironic for them, if they use money.
I believe and spend plenty of money, almost as fast as I get it, so...
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please do not take anything said or written by me wrong here, please... this is a delicate subject, I really should have stayed away from it.
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No way, with a name like "ZEN MASTER" you've got to stick around. Quote:
NO, not at all... political correctness is just blowing it all out of prop. I was stretching it to make point. Those who try to block it are doing so for what reason? So their child will not be offended, or converted by a Baptist, saying a prayer, or any variation on that.?!?.?!?!?
Please just take it as a weird point... those who want pure seperation of church and state, handle and use money every day... with "in god we trust" written on it, get the point?
We as a country were partly founded on the belief, it is okay for different people to believe different things. Why has it changed so much? Will a 5 second prayer change any devote persons belief system? I doubt it. I have never heard a back handed comment over the PA system at any game any where, any time. Only once in a Baptist Church, and it just came out wrong... a lot like most of my posts.
Those who try to block it are doing so for what reason? So their child will not be offended, or converted by a Baptist, saying a prayer, or any variation on that.?!?.?!?!?
Well, yes. But, I don't think this is the issue here. I think the issue here is the state (U.S. Goverment) believes it cannot have an actual or perceived sponsorship or endorsement role in the event of a pregame prayer. To be involved would be considered by the state to be unconstitutional. And, because the state's position is based on the Constitution, specifically the Establishment Clause of the 1st Amendment, it doesn't believe it's trying to block it. It believes it's involvement is already blocked. Because the coach acting in his role as coach is considered an agent of the state, it believes his/her involvement is also already blocked.
We as a country were partly founded on the belief, it is okay for different people to believe different things. Why has it changed so much?
I don't think it has. I've yet to see a court decision that restricted an individual's freedom to believe. The reason I referenced the Cheerleaders v. UGA case was to point out that while the state would not support the coach's actions in the role of coach (agent of the state) toward the 2 cheerleaders, it did continue to support the coach's right to hold Bible classes even on UGA property.
Will a 5 second prayer change any devote persons belief system?
What about the lack of one?
Actually, some of the posts here would indicate some believe a 5 second prayer should be conducted, because it can affect change in an individual's belief system. Again, a process in which the state believes it has no right to become involved.
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Legal or not..This is what it means to me in a nutshell..
I went to school in the 60s and 70s..While I did not grow up with a church going family..Everyday after roll call in school..
We recited the lord's prayer,the pledge of alligence and the national anthem..Not on fridays..Everyday!!
I can still recite all three..The next time you are at a sporting event with your hat off your head and your hand on your heart while the anthem is being played..take a look around and see who is standing at attention and who is just killing time..
Before ball games we would say a prayer and I would hate for that to fall to the waist side because a few are offended..What next? stop with the national anthem..Hey!! We don't want to offend anyone..
I have been to church's and gatherings where their god was not my god..Was I offended? No..I put my head down out of respect for others..That's what you do..
How many today can recite the pledge of alligence?
I guess I am just old fashioned that way or maybe still have some moral fiber
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I guess I started school in the 50's (whole LOT of "majority in power" types of things going on back then). While I remember saying the Pledge of Allegience at the beginning of the day, I don't recall saying the Lord's Prayer. Some of the teams I played on did recite the Lord's Prayer before competing. At the end "...deliver us from evil. Amen" I would clap, shout "Go Wave" (yep, your neck of the woods), and run out on the field. What I never understood was what the rest of the team was rambling on about, still in the huddle, when I was already headed out to the field.
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Joined: Jan 2006
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I remember saying the lord's prayer thru most of elementary school in N.Charleston..So you played for young John..Cool.
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 688
goal
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goal
Joined: Oct 2007
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I too have that memory, just of another place, and set of kids. I still get chills when we do the national anthem, before a football game, blood pressure, and energy go up almost automatically... Funny thing is, I am trying to get a flag up before the soccer matches so we can do all the right stuff before those as well.
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Goal
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Goal
Joined: Feb 2007
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(Bear, where did your post that brought a national perspective to this discussion go? I believe your post, however briefly posted, included all the points of the debate, thus far, including one key questions of the tests of constitutionallity.) Bringing the national anthem and flag into the discussion may offer some perspective on the rest of the debate. We ARE supposed to stand at attention facing the national flag during the national anthem, and somewhere along the line we also learn to fight to defend the country and constitution that that flag represents. Now, at none of the public school stadiums will you find the flags of Christianity, Judaism, Islam, etc. flying next to the Stars and Stripes. However, I have yet to read a post of anyone here feeling offended or violated of rights due to the absence. Quote:
I too have that memory...
CHT & ZEN, I apologize for the subtlety of the point I was trying to make. I was the player standing alone on the field feeling egg on my face, because my version of the Lord's Prayer does not include the doxology found at the end of my teammates' version. I may be wrong, but I don't think that was a memory we shared.
(Coach Chass, I finally found how your post vanished into ether.  )
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 63
throw in
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throw in
Joined: Mar 2010
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I’m with you DeltaDog. I remember the uneasy feeling in public grade school during the morning’s Lord’s Prayer when I stopped at “.... and deliver us from evil”. My mother told me to just be silent at the end of the prayer. I felt different. I was the only one in the class that did not say the whole prayer.
I also remember a county school employee (bus driver) telling me that I was not “saved” because I was Catholic. I was nine years old. My skills at argumentation and debate were not quite as well-honed at that time. I’ll never forget it.
True stories. Until you have walked that mile it might be hard to understand. Prayer in public schools is illegal. You can debate until the cows come home. It's the law.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521
hat-trick
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hat-trick
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521 |
Marta,
Do your kids pray in school?
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 63
throw in
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throw in
Joined: Mar 2010
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With all due respect coldhardtruth, that's a rhetorical question and irrelevant. My kids don't go to public school.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521
hat-trick
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hat-trick
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521 |
It's not illegal..It just can not be lead by a state employee..I guess you knew that I already knew the answer to my question..
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558
Goal
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Goal
Joined: Feb 2007
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nor can it take place at the suggestion of a state employee.
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Joined: Feb 2007
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Goal
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Goal
Joined: Feb 2007
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I had a middle school goalkeeper that you could hear from the sideline praying out loud every time the opposing team crossed midfield with possession. No problem. Unfortunately, I was not allowed before the game to tell her to stand over to the side and pray for rain.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521
hat-trick
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hat-trick
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521 |
that's funny stuff..dog..You have definitely kept this thread alive and entertaining..How does the FCA work in the public school system? Fellowship of Christian Atheles..Legal or not?
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
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Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
FCA has just been reborn (honestly, no pun intended) at BHS...activities are voluntary and are to take place outside of school hours or athletic events.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Joined: Jan 2006
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hat-trick
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hat-trick
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521 |
You rebels...livin on the edge and running with scirrors!!
What next? Petting stray dogs..
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Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
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Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Actually, I think there are a couple of stray dogs who attend the FCA meetings at the flagpole. Not sure if they come for the spiritual aspect or just show up for the free food, but either way they'd fit into most congregations.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Joined: Jan 2006
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hat-trick
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hat-trick
Joined: Jan 2006
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They faked it and ate the food
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Posts: 273
corner kick
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corner kick
Joined: Apr 2006
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Shhhhhh, CHT. You're letting out all our secrets!!
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; [it] is also what it takes to sit down and listen.
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Posts: 588
goal
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goal
Joined: Apr 2004
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Quote:
(Bear, where did your post that brought a national perspective to this discussion go? I believe your post, however briefly posted, included all the points of the debate, thus far, including one key questions of the tests of constitutionallity.)
I don't normally post here, and honestly, it appeared to be a thread killer, so I removed it. However, it went something like this.
I believe this topic to be largely geographically based. Growing up my family traveled due to my father being military. However, when he retired we returned home. He was stationed at Shaw when he met my mother, and I and my two brothers were all born at Shaw. That said, while stationed in CA, and playing middle school sports there was no pregame prayer. However, playing HS football in SC, there was a team prayer before each game. I can't believe that if it weren't for the personal beliefs of the coaching staff, that would have happened.
It also had this quote:
Quote:
The next time you are at a sporting event with your hat off your head and your hand on your heart while the anthem is being played..take a look around and see who is standing at attention
If you do this, you just might be looking at the veterans in attendance.
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