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Someone said that the scores thread is for scores and not for criticizing referees. So, why don't we have a thread for criticizing refs?
So here's my complaint. When I got my badge, I learned that JOB 1 is protecting the safety of the players. Well, as a ref you can't really protect the players--you cannot prevent bad tackles. The only power you have is the card. But if the ref doesn't have the balls to throw the card on a studs up sliding tackle, then he isn't protecting the players, is he?
And then when he threatens me with a card for quietly, not loudly and publicly, pointing out what JOB 1 is, he just compounds the error. So he's got great courage to card a coach for pointing out his inadequacy, but not to protect the players on the pitch.
IMHO.
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My favorite one of the year was at Jekyll at the Tournament of Champions.
First play... keeper on the ground ball behind her, our forward sliding by her to go to goal, keeper reaches up and out to grab forwards foot to pull her down. Should have been a red on Keeper. Forward got called for a foul.
Same ref... same keep... second half.
Another forward was chasing down a ball near the end line. The ball some how bounces high... about 7 feet in the air. Forward in position to trap and take off. Keep has being coming out and when she gets there... ball remeber is 7 feet in the air... she slides into forwards knee. Almost broke her in half. NO CALL. If the keep would have went high and blasted the forward I might could have seen it... She meant to hurt the girl... that is the only way it could have been read.
funny the refs worry about entering the field, and if their foot is up on a throw in, but trying to kill each other... well we shall not worry about that.
Wierd the best set of refs I have seen this year were there... and the worst. It really is the same all over.
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many (not all) HS refs don't care about the women's game and only there to make a buck and going through the motions. don't want to pull too many cards and never a red and have to complete the paperwork. sometimes it takes a bunch of hard fouls w/out any intent of playing the ball and late in the 2nd half before they pull the 1st yellow.
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On the issue of egregiously hard fouls: I, having started this thread, obviously agree that refs need to grow a pair when such fouls happen.
OTOH, what are we as coaches doing. If we have a player who commits such a foul, are we pulling them out, sitting them down, and explaining that such plays have no place in the game?
If you leave a player in the game who injures another person, card or no card, aren't you condoning the behavior. As the coach of the player who got taken out I'm upset that the ref did almost nothing. But I also blame the coach who tolerates that kind of play.
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Corner Kick
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I love when refs show up to games in bad moods and they let be known during games. I had a player last season going for a bouncing ball and other teams player jumped and tried to kick it out of the air but instead planted his foot into my players chest. No foul called from ref 5 yards away, so I of course yell out "Ref that has to be a foul and a card" then the ref threatens to toss me out of the game for saying something?? This early in the first half. Oh and his explanation for no foul was My player was going for the ball. ??? Well i would hope he was going for it!
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I agree with Paul that coaches can help police his/her players when things get a bit out of hand. 2 girls in the AMHS/Barnwell game last night got tangled up in the midfield and you could see that emotions were rising. Coach Allen immediately pulled his player off the field, spoke with her, and placed her back in the game when she had relaxed. His actions were swift and helped the game stay in check. Coaches know their players and which ones are more apt to let their emotions take over. The refs have a job to do and some are better at it than others. The same is true of all professions.
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Post deleted by IRMOGSOCCER
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Quote:
It is also great when you ask about a call at half time and the ref says " I saw what you saw sir, but have to agree with my linesman, coach"...
In the 3-referee system (diagonal system of control), the center ref makes the decisions and he is responsible for those decisions. He can decide to overrule the assistant referee (fomerly known as linesman) and wave off the flag if he sees it differently. He does NOT have to agree with the "linesman".
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I like it when a ref shows up late for a game and immediately starts making calls for the other team. Also wears a bandana and makes weird signals such as The Karate Kid Krane kick for an offsides.
Laces out DAN!!!
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Refs are human and make mistakes
/thread
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if mistakes are made boths ways I can agree with you. Always good, always bad, both teams play with same. Bias is a different story.
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Zen has been doing some meditation. Too many refs are bias toward a "good" program or against a program they have had run ins with. Good or bad doesn't matter as much as consistency. If the ref is consistant (good or bad) a coach can adjust to it.
"Boys, even if it means dying on the pitch, we must win!" Marc-Vivien Foe 1975 - 2003
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Quote:
...Good or bad doesn't matter as much as consistency. If the ref is consistant (good or bad) a coach can adjust to it.
It's kind of difficult to adjust if a ref "consistently" let's the game get out of control and your players keep getting injured.
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Refs/Coaches don't cause injuries, players do.
Refs/Coaches don't score goals, players do.
Refs/Coaches don't make saves, players do.
Refs/ Coaches have no effect on the outcome of a game.players do.
There's nothing worse than going to an athletic event and hearing whining parents for 70-80 minutes cry on how bad the refs are. If the games to tough for you or your child pick a new activity.
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Quote:
Refs/Coaches don't cause injuries, players do.
Refs/Coaches don't score goals, players do.
Refs/Coaches don't make saves, players do.
Refs/ Coaches have no effect on the outcome of a game.players do.
There's nothing worse than going to an athletic event and hearing whining parents for 70-80 minutes cry on how bad the refs are. If the games to tough for you or your child pick a new activity.
If the refs do not control the game to some degree the kids will kill each other, boys more so than girls, but they get wild as well.
I can not get your point at all... It is a contact sport, but is not MMA. If you are a parent and that is the way you feel send yours to Karate class. If you are not a parent, that explains your comments as well.
Coaches and refs DO affect the outcome of games.
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i have been watching my kids play competitive soccer for over 10 years. And have never seen the roughness that's been on this thread. And I don't think any high school kid is playing to kill each other. MMA, "are you kidding me." soccer is a physical sport. again if you don't want your child taking that risk then you need to get your child into something else. get them into tennis, golf,cheerleading, ballet,ping pong that type of thing.you'll be much more comfortable.
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Uncle Buck...
Do you have your eyes open??
Are the games you watch competitive or are they 8-0 blowouts where a "ref" really isn't needed??
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Sometimes it's those 8-0 blowouts where a ref is needed the most! A losing team often does nothing but retaliate physically!
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Question Master...
That's the problem. I have my eyes open trying to watch my team play.
And your probably the one with your mouth open for 40 minutes yelling at the refs.
Just watch the game for what it is and enjoy it. Or don't go.
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A studs up sliding tackle is at the very least a cautionable offense at every level of soccer, including professional, except, apparently in the girls high school game in SC.
There is a difference between tough, physical soccer and dangerous soccer. It is the referee's job to enforce the rules and, as much as he or she can, protect the players. If you don't understand that, you have never taken the referee's course. If the referees do not have an influence on the game, if only the players have anything to do with the game, then why bother having refs?
And if coaches allow or encourage violent play, some players on that team will play that way. If a player who slides studs up is immediately removed from a game, she will learn to slide properly or keep her feet.
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Quote:
Refs/ Coaches have no effect on the outcome of a game.players do.
You know, if I believed this were true, I'd probably sleep a lot better after an unsatisfactory outcome instead of going over and over in my head how I could have a better effect on the next outcome.
Truth is, anyone who has an influence on the course of the game has an effect on the outcome, for better or for worse. In a perfect world, the players would have the greatest effect on the outcome, the coaches less, and the officials little discernable effect at all. Decisions made by both coaches and officials, though, put constraints on the players and can definitely greatly affect the outcome of their efforts--again, for better or for worse, depending on the quality of those decisions.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Just to provide a frame of reference: at the Fort Mill vs Mauldin playoff (boys) game two years ago Ft Mill was up by two with about 5 min to go Mauldin (who had been aggressive all game long) was getting very physical and a player made a bad, you can call it dirty but I will simply call it what it was a bad foul that got him a yellow card. Problem was it was his second card, out he goes. FT Mill scores again right way now it is 3-0 game over right? Well the Mauldin players, mostly seniors decided to go out with a bang two more red cards in next two minutes. One included a Mauldin player sitting on a FT Mill player banging the Ft Mill players head into the ground. Ref called the game after third card with 3 min to go, down 3 with only 8 players and they were clearly intent on hurting/ getting FT Mill players red cards, game over.
Next time FT Mill played Mauldin, next season a FT Mill player got his collar bone broken, just a fluke or a dirty play? Those at the game called it dirty but since I was not there I will not judge it. From what I understand FT Mill will no longer schedule Mauldin for regular season games.
So, yes the players sometimes go after players to hurt them no doubt, and refs have/need to see it and control it or it will get out of hand.
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I have known players (my own children) to be encouraged, by coaches, to play rough/physical till the whistle. Once the ref shows the players what they can and can't do they pull back. Problem is some players do not how to play physical without playing dirty.
Anyone who thinks refs do not impact the play is dreaming. The job of a ref is to impact the play, they are there to administer the game and make judgments. Failure to make call is much an impact as making them.
Good refs find a balance where they establish to the players how close they will call it while still letting the players play the game.
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Uncle Buck, not to beat a dead horse or to argue with you. I do want to say, I have seen kids try to hurt each other, the keeper I mentioned a few posts ago, went for a knee - just one example. I have seen punches thrown. The chief described a head being banged off the ground. We all watch the games, so we see what is actually happening.
The true measure of a ref to me is, if they seem like they are not there, and they control the game - control meaning the rough stuff. If they do not it will escualte, up, and up, and up... The ball can be won with force. If it is allowed to grow during a match, the force has to grow,to continue to win the ball. The more force that is allow to be used, the higher the likelyhood of injuries.
The young lady who got into so much trouble last year during the college season. That was a simple build up between two players. Player 1 threw an elbow, to her chest... she returned the favor with a punch to the back.(to me same relative level of violance - two yellows should have been shown, but because they were not) Player one grabs her private parts, for some reason, then player 2 grabs her hair and throws her to the ground. One college career down the tubes because of the lack of calls. How this was edited varied across the media. Opinions were determined by the version you saw.
In a game the other night I saw my youngest holding her elbow as if she was hurt and trying to look at the skin on the inside part. Come to find out a girl on the other team was scratching the fool out of the girls, no less than 4 showed me claw marks, left by #10.
I do not know how fights go where you come from Uncle Buck. But heads beat on the ground, punches thrown, hair pulled, scratching... Sounds like a fight to me. Big John McCarthy might be needed after all.
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Quote:
I like it when a ref shows up late for a game and immediately starts making calls for the other team. Also wears a bandana and makes weird signals such as The Karate Kid Krane kick for an offsides.
. Hahahahahaha yesssssss! Also don't you just love those refs that have those giant egos/cocky attitude thinking they are the almighty ones hanging high on their scaffold? Thinking they run this town like Jay-Z and Rihanna?
Burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
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There seems to be several postings on broken tibias, torn acls, and other injuries this high school season. What is everyone's opinion. Is the rate of serious injuries in high school soccer growing? Serious injuries being defined as causing players to be out for at least 3 weeks. Are there more serious injuries in high school soccer vs. club soccer? If there is a difference? Why do you think that is? Does anyone track # of injuries by team/opponent/coach and ref. It would be an interesting study to see if there is any correlation.
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My daughter plays keeper and took a hit last year that caused a partial dislocation of her shoulder. She took another bad shot in a club tournament about 4 months after that, had 5 more dislocations, and ended up having to have surgery to repair a torn labrum. She has missed the entire Varsity season and is set to be released for Club in September. So this was a 9 MONTH recoup period after surgery!!..As a player, it has been hard on her not playing..as a parent, I am a little apprehensive about how much contact some refs are letting go.
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Sometimes it's those 8-0 blowouts where a ref is needed the most! A losing team often does nothing but retaliate physically!
we've all seen this, frustrated slower players getting beat to the ball all game can only hit from behind & usually do.
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We have never had a season like this for injuries...right now I have one starter recovering from ACL surgery, two in boots from high ankle sprains, and one keeper with a possible concussion from last night, along with a scattering of other twisted knees, turned ankles, and assorted bumps and bangs. Most banged-up crew I've ever coached...trying to keep enough on the field to finish the season!
I've got good news and bad news...
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Quote:
Just to provide a frame of reference: at the Fort Mill vs Mauldin playoff (boys) game two years ago Ft Mill was up by two with about 5 min to go Mauldin (who had been aggressive all game long) was getting very physical and a player made a bad, you can call it dirty but I will simply call it what it was a bad foul that got him a yellow card. Problem was it was his second card, out he goes. FT Mill scores again right way now it is 3-0 game over right? Well the Mauldin players, mostly seniors decided to go out with a bang two more red cards in next two minutes. One included a Mauldin player sitting on a FT Mill player banging the Ft Mill players head into the ground. Ref called the game after third card with 3 min to go, down 3 with only 8 players and they were clearly intent on hurting/ getting FT Mill players red cards, game over.
Next time FT Mill played Mauldin, next season a FT Mill player got his collar bone broken, just a fluke or a dirty play? Those at the game called it dirty but since I was not there I will not judge it. From what I understand FT Mill will no longer schedule Mauldin for regular season games.
So, yes the players sometimes go after players to hurt them no doubt, and refs have/need to see it and control it or it will get out of hand.
Please Get your facts straight. Mauldin and Ft Mill would have played each other this year if we did not have a travel restriction on our team because of funding. There is no bad blood on this team towards Ft. Mill. Coach Chalker is a great man and I am sure he understands that the child who got hurt last year was in the normal course of play. Not a Single player on this squad played in that playoff game 2 years ago nor did this coach. I look forward to playing them in the future.
Last edited by AgentOrange; 04/29/10 05:34 PM.
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Just a lot of weak players out there in this day and age. Throw in the propensity of knee injuries for teenage girls and it's always going to be a high number of catastrophies. Personally, I've seen more injuries occur during club ball when the players (in my opinion) aren't in the best shape possible for the rigors of soccer. I believe this is due to the lack of training (2 days a week and then a slew of games on the weekend).
When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.
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I can say with NO hesitation that my daughter's injury was not because she is weak or unconditioned. She runs on her own 2-3 miles in the "off-season" and does resistance and strength training. No matter how good of shape you are in, if you take a bad hit, YOU WILL GET HURT!!..
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All commentors on this subject have made valid points, Yes there are a lot of players out there who are setting out to warn off or hurt other players. Some skilled and some unskilled players do not step away or turn from the plays. They choose to run each other down, so to speak. I have heard many parents screaming to get this one and that, Fouls do occur on accident and on purpose. This beautiful game is much more than that. It is such a smart game.Sometimes I feel we have lost sight of that. Lets watch and see what type of teams will be at the finals this year. I believe it will be .........
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Quote:
Quote:
Just to provide a frame of reference: at the Fort Mill vs Mauldin playoff (boys) game two years ago Ft Mill was up by two with about 5 min to go Mauldin (who had been aggressive all game long) was getting very physical and a player made a bad, you can call it dirty but I will simply call it what it was a bad foul that got him a yellow card. Problem was it was his second card, out he goes. FT Mill scores again right way now it is 3-0 game over right? Well the Mauldin players, mostly seniors decided to go out with a bang two more red cards in next two minutes. One included a Mauldin player sitting on a FT Mill player banging the Ft Mill players head into the ground. Ref called the game after third card with 3 min to go, down 3 with only 8 players and they were clearly intent on hurting/ getting FT Mill players red cards, game over.
Next time FT Mill played Mauldin, next season a FT Mill player got his collar bone broken, just a fluke or a dirty play? Those at the game called it dirty but since I was not there I will not judge it. From what I understand FT Mill will no longer schedule Mauldin for regular season games.
So, yes the players sometimes go after players to hurt them no doubt, and refs have/need to see it and control it or it will get out of hand.
Please Get your facts straight. Mauldin and Ft Mill would have played each other this year if we did not have a travel restriction on our team because of funding. There is no bad blood on this team towards Ft. Mill. Coach Chalker is a great man and I am sure he understands that the child who got hurt last year was in the normal course of play. Not a Single player on this squad played in that playoff game 2 years ago nor did this coach. I look forward to playing them in the future.
Catching up on your reading I see, posted that a month ago.
OK, I am not blaming the current team or players for what happened. The fact as I put them concerning future play were as I understood them to be based on conversation with the parents of the injured player and other players and parents on the team. The father of the player felt like his son was intentionally body slammed by the Mauldin player, he may be a little biased or have his memory a little out of whack because of the stress of that night spent in an ER with his son. Note I did not make a judgment on the play. I will let the coach make his own statement about weather he thought the play was "normal", and I think you should too.
I guess we will see about future play but since FM is moving to 3A will be less likely in future.
My bigger point was that some players do try to hurt other players. We saw it in the first game I mentioned that was what the thread was talking about at the time and the fact that ref have to take action early to prevent it. Hurst66 just posted, in another thread, some great advice for refs on how to limit it.
Last edited by The Chief; 04/29/10 08:36 PM.
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Crazy finish to last nights JV match between Riverside and Mauldin. Game was tied 1-1 inside last 2:00 minutes. Clock was stopped with official time being kept on the field. Mauldin has a break away and right midfielder plays a ball across the box from out at the line. As ball is coming 'through' the 6 yard box, ref blows whistle to end the game. Mauldin player then finishes with a beautiful sliding goal. Referee disallows the goal because it came a split second after whistle. I know the goal should be disallowed because the whistle had blown, but who in their right mind blows the whistle to end a game with the ball crossing through the six?
Then in the varsity match, the center ref was absolutely horrible. He is a well known instructor of officials and he brought his throne and crown for all to see. He made a mockery of the game. Just as the earlier posts suggested, he knit-picked every little rule but lost control of the physicality in the game.
Uncle Buck, you are absolutely wrong when you say the officials can not effect the outcome of the game.
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Well, since this thread is re-vivified:
The issue is not whether the coach can adjust to good or bad referees, but what happens to the girls when you have a bad referee, and what happens to the integrity of the game?
Tonight at Pickens we got our third goal on a PK, and let me be the first to say publicly it was a totally bogus call. Then again, they got their third goal off a direct kick from about 25 yards when the ref backed our wall up to at least 15 yards from the ball. I asked him about it at half, and he assured me it was only 10 yards and he should know because he refs high school football. OMG!!!
Does he know that the wall doesn't have to be 10 yards down the field but ten yards from the ball?
When one of my players was clearly fouled right in front of his ____ eyes, I simply asked (with somewhat elevated volume) why it wasn't a call, and he responded most eloquently with a yellow card. Did he explain why it wasn't a call? Of course not, because he has no earthly idea what a foul is.
Was he biased? No, he was horrible in both directions, but he created uncertainty and ruined a very interesting match.
IMHO.
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Oh, and BTW, job 1 for referees is the safety of the players. I don't know that poor refereeing leads to more injuries, but such a notion is certainly intuitive. I'd love to see a study done looking at injuries/referee.
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