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For Women's NCAA D1 Soccer I have recently been wondering, and studying, about the success of college programs year to year based on whether they mostly recruit locally (in state), regionally (adjacent states or near by states), and nationally (say an SEC school recruiting from the northwest, northeast, or west coast). I am not sure I am noticing any trends but am still collecting data. I would be curious if any of our esteemed scsoccer friends have thought about this. Thoughts?
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Not sure exactly what information or thoughts you are looking for, but if you look at schools in South Carolina you will not see that many South Carolina kids on rosters:
1. USC is the best team in the state and they only have 6 kids from this state. The rest of the team is mostly from region III and then small amounts from mostly the east coast.
2. On the other hand, Winthrop has only 3 kids from South Carolina and a pretty diverse roster otherwise. They really struggled for the most part, but had some decent wins along the way to a poor season.
3. South Carolina State has almost no one from South Carolina mostly due to the fact that hardly any decent player from this state wants to go there. They have mostly California, Canadian, and island players and do better then a Winthrop or Wofford.
4. NCAA Division II Newberry has 10 South Carolina players on the roster and made the tournament this year in problably the second hardest D2 conference in the country.
What does this all tell us? Perhaps not enough quality South Carolina Division 1 players or do colleges simply ignore players from their own state. Some thoughts....
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I think our ODP program in the state hasn't helped very much in recruiting. In my daughters age group (she's been in ODP for the full 5 years) we've seen a steady decline in quality players participating year after year. The kids get discouraged going to the ODP events and seeing GA, FL, NC, TX players getting all of the attention. They end up giving it up, because their not getting anything out of it. The SC ODP team in U16 and U17 girls is 4-5 girls who could play D1 and the rest of the team is usually challenge and classic players who will play D2/D3 or not play at all. It's hard to show your skills when you have that kind of makeup on a team. You can't blame the state's ODP coaches, because their not getting much to work with. I think new leadership in the state's odp program is needed for our kids to get more looks. It needs to be run by soccer people.
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odp on the girls side is more about college coaches using it for networking and recruiting. sure there is some upside but not so much about development any more.
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ODP is being "phased/pushed out" for ECNL on the girls side like it is for Academy on the boys side. Not sure there is much chance for it to survive if ECNL continues to grow, at some point kids will stop doing ODP to focus on their ECNL.
The college coach/political side of ODP may have also done some damage in a lot of players/parents eyes. Rumors/stories from last couple years had players being passed on becasue they were not commiting to the "right" schools. May be true may not be but the fact exists that the rumors are there and makes people question the process/ system.
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letme: "odp on the girls side is more about college coaches using it for networking and recruiting" I have to agree with you. Looking at the roster for the girls' 1992 Costa Rica trip there are no female SC players listed, although, the Region III ODP coach is from USC. There are; however, 3 of USC's 2010 recruits from Georgia listed on the roster. I am wondering if those listed are truly better than all of the 2010 South Carolina players who have signed with ACC, SEC, Southern Conference, etc. schools. Just my opinion, but, that is pretty sad when the Region coach is from South Carolina and doesn't roster any South Carolina players. Especially, when there are several who definitely have the talent to represent SC and Region III ODP. These girls represented the SC ODP program throughout their soccer careers. The posted roster provides evidence about the lack of respect some college coaches from South Carolina have for the female players from our state.
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I can only speak for mine but USC was offering little when other schools were offering mush more. I think in some cases but not all, they try to get the in-state player with academic money which may not pay for everything and use their athletic money to make big offers to the out of state player. Others schools do it so it is not just USC. Its not a bad idea if it works.Some of the in state players get better offers from other schools (SC or out of state schools) so that may be a reason the bigger SC schools has a lower number of SC kids.
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Do you think (objectivly speaking) that the out of state "big fish" players were "better" signings for USC? Did they lose out on better/higher ranked (again very subjective) in state talent using this method?
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Do you think (objectivly speaking) that the out of state "big fish" players were "better" signings for USC? Did they lose out on better/higher ranked (again very subjective) in state talent using this method?
In your opinion how many true D-1 female 2010 players are there in SC this year? give me a number for major and mid major, with Furman and CofC being mid major.
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sweet what is your definition of a true D1 player.
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sweet what is your definition of a true D1 player.
That is an excellent question!
Each one of us has a different opinion of what makes a "true D1 player" - kind of like how every coach has an idea of what they're looking for in a player.
Being the father of 2 D1 players, it's remarkable the differences between the two programs each of my kids is involved in. I'd say that each of my kids is the perfect "true D1 player" for their respective programs but neither would be happy at the other's school.
Is a "true D1 player" a kid who makes a commitment to play 4 years at a school and fulfills that commitment???
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sweet what is your definition of a true D1 player.
I will remove the word true, in my opinion there are two types of D-1 players, a player who plays for a major D-1 program and a player who plays for a mid-major program. In most cases a player playing for a mid major is lacking a certain skill set to play major D-1. Also a player should be getting solid playing time by there 2nd year at either level. So how many Major D-1 players do we have for 2010 in SC.
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Do you think (objectivly speaking) that the out of state "big fish" players were "better" signings for USC? Did they lose out on better/higher ranked (again very subjective) in state talent using this method?
Not getting to see all the players from out of state play that USC recruited just some of them this would just be an opinion but i do not think skill wise these players were better than some of the in state players.Athletics or not mine didnt like the school so she wasnt going there.I would think they have lost out over the years on some in state players using this method.
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Let's name names.
Who are '10 or '11 SC players that deserve money to play at a Top 10 school? Keep in mind, UNC, Florida State, Boston College, Wake Forest, UCLA, Notre Dame, Stanford and Portland were the Elite Eight participants.
Who are the SC players that deserve to be on the Region III team?
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Let's name names.
Who are '10 or '11 SC players that deserve money to play at a Top 10 school? Keep in mind, UNC, Florida State, Boston College, Wake Forest, UCLA, Notre Dame, Stanford and Portland were the Elite Eight participants.
Who are the SC players that deserve to be on the Region III team?
My daughter was recruited by Pac-10, ACC and SEC schools, two of which you mentioned above, she is very happy with her (SEC) choice.
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all the above answers are good but left out the most important one ..... thats SPEED
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all the above answers are good but left out the most important one ..... thats SPEED
Speed is always important, however in the girls game, 9 out of ten track stars playing soccer can't hit the side of a barn with the ball. Your lucky if they finish 1 out of 10-15 opportunities.
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Quote:
Let's name names.
Who are '10 or '11 SC players that deserve money to play at a Top 10 school? Keep in mind, UNC, Florida State, Boston College, Wake Forest, UCLA, Notre Dame, Stanford and Portland were the Elite Eight participants.
Who are the SC players that deserve to be on the Region III team?
Kickinit70 mine will enjoy playing in the same league with sweet feets daughter.
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In all do respect, some form letters/written correspondence and large money to actually contribute are two different things. Those schools recruit on a national scale and I'd have to hear the name of this SC player. I can't think of a club, ODP or high school player who would be a high priority for these particular programs. Not to say your daughter can't play quality D-I but these are the best of the best with the ability to get anyone.
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Here are the players that I am aware of that attended high school in SC and signed with major D1 conferences in 2010. There may be others that I have missed:
Morgan Hert of Mauldin HS - Clemson University (ACC)
Alex Ramsey of Rock Hill HS - Louisana State University (SEC)
Taylor Parker of Ft. Mill HS - University of Kentucky (SEC)
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for the above list, unless the Big-12 isn't considered a major conference...
2010 Waldon,Mackenzie Iowa State University (CESA '91 Challenge team, JL Mann)
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...Some of the in state players get better offers from other schools (SC or out of state schools) so that may be a reason the bigger SC schools has a lower number of SC kids.
Valid point, Hard Headed. I know for sure of 6 SC players of 2009(3) and 2010(3) classes (including your daughter) that were recruited by USC. Only 1 accepted the USC offer. 1 accepted another SEC offer (your daughter), 1 an ACC offer, and 3 accepted in-state SOCON offers.
Sweet Feet, given the above, if you are saying that the 3 that accepted SOCON offers ("mid-major") are not qualified to play "major", BECAUSE they chose "mid-major" (somehow indicating lessor skill level(?)), wouldn't the rest of us have to conclude from your argument that a player recruited by 3 teams of the "elite 8" mentioned above who chose not to attend those schools must also not be qualified to play at the "elite 8" level... simply because she chose not to?
I hope you're sensing that I'm not buying fully into this "major" vs. "mid-major" indicator of player capability. However, if I did I could finally understand how the U.S. Men's National Team can't seem to finally break through due to those 2 Furman graduates being on the current roster that obviously weren't even qualified to play "major" D-1 college soccer... because they chose to play at a "mid-major". But, then I'd still be left scratching my head as to how Katya Gokhman just after finishing her sophmore season at Furman could end up with her picture on the roster page at Florida State if a player at a "mid-major" school couldn't possibly have the skills to play "major" much less "elite 8". 
Ok, ok, I think I'm getting it... Furman (SOCON) beats Clemson (ACC) 2 years running, Samford (SOCON) beats Alabama (SEC), and the SOCON teams are the "mid-majors"? No, I thought I had it, but something just doesn't sound right. Oh, I got it, the lessor teams WITHOUT skills are beating the teams WITH skills! No, that just doesn't sound right either. I'm still confused.
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(Kikinit70) ...Keep in mind, UNC, Florida State, Boston College, Wake Forest, UCLA, Notre Dame, Stanford and Portland were the Elite Eight participants.
What a difference a year makes. The year before, Wake Forest was knocked out in the second round by a "mid-major". Of course that was a better showing than the three SEC schools that were knocked out in the FIRST round by "mid-majors". 
Sorry folks, I just don't think you can always use a player's decision to play "mid-major" D-1 or, in some cases D-2/3, as necessarily meaning the player isn't capable of playing successfully at a "major". And, I'm not necessarily sure all the players I've seen in the past at "majors" SHOULD be playing "major", even though they are.
Last edited by DeltaDog; 04/10/10 08:41 AM.
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Delta Dog makes some very good points here, especially that some very good players are capable to play at big university and just make a good decision to go to a school to actually play and contribute.
This thread might be better off moving away from since its so subjective and there's so much we don't know about individual players and their recruiting process.
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The SC ODP team in U16 and U17 girls is 4-5 girls who could play D1 and the rest of the team is usually challenge and classic players who will play D2/D3 or not play at all. It's hard to show your skills when you have that kind of makeup on a team.
Uncle Buck, I wouldn't knock the Challenge players too much, within our own club the '91 and '92 Challenge teams each have at least one player that have either signed or committed to D1 schools.
As for the second part about exposure at Region ODP Camp, I think some of the reported changes for how this year's camp will be run will directly address your criticism. It may be late in the ODP process for the '93 group, but it will still be interesting to see the effects of the change. I'm not sure I agree that there exists a significant drop off after the first 4-5 players at the past camps that caused the diminished exposure, but I will agree that SC teams haven't always enjoyed the same exposure as TX, GA, FL or even NC. I believe getting away from the state team vs. state team format and going to a "scramble" format for all games will really improve the exposure for a lot of players from the "non-dominant" states. This year, my understanding, your daughter will not only be playing against players from FL, TX, etc., but will finally get a chance to play all games WITH the players from FL, TX, etc. Finally, a "region team tryout" environment rather than the "state teams tournament" environment of the past... I hope.
So, seeing the SC players competing as teammates alongside players from those traditionally dominant states may also help sell the "major" college coaches on the idea that more SC players than were once thought can actually play "major" D1 soccer. I've always thought they could.
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(The Chief) ...ODP is being "phased/pushed out" for ECNL on the girls side like it is for Academy on the boys side. Not sure there is much chance for it to survive if ECNL continues to grow, at some point kids will stop doing ODP to focus on their ECNL.
I don't think ECNL will be killing off USYS ODP any time soon, although I'm sure it wouldn't hurt the feelings of those trying to expand that program (actually, I think it is part of the program's agenda)... 1) you only have one team per age in SC currently playing ECNL, everyone else in the state is still USYS only including the ECNL club's Challenge team. The boys side is still going strong even with the one Academy team per age in SC. 2) None of the FL teams are involved in ECNL nor are Texans Red or most of the current top clubs from GA (lots of Region and National players). Until SC starts getting some real numbers into the girls' region pools, do you really think USYS Region 3 camp would miss us even if the whole state joined ECNL?
I asked college coaches at last year's camp what the coaches thought about ECNL. They said they would attend games etc. like any other event. I then asked what the coaches thought about the possibility that ECNL may try to restrict its members from participating in USYS ODP events. One of the coaches said (s)he hadn't heard that, and "thought it would be a mistake... that ODP on the girls' side works, we have the number 1 team in the world."
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I often wonder –
How many players feel forced by their parents to play soccer in college and is this a reason there is a high “quitting” rate in college soccer?
If more good/skilled players decided to play in college or played 4 years would the level of play be improved and would more teams be more competitive?
Are player’s demands and time commitment required to play soccer in college hurting the quality of the college game?
With many teams having 28 to 32 on a roster how could any player not realize there is a good chance of not playing much over a 4 year period?
Why is the injury rate so high in women’s college soccer? Is the training over the top and players on the edge of injury?
Is club soccer the new trend at universities/colleges and how many quality players will opt for club vs playing varsity?
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Delta:
Are you trying to say there isn't a difference between a SOCON soccer program and a ACC or SEC soccer program ? Are you also saying that the SOCON schools get the same talent as SEC and ACC schools.
By the way... the coach that put Furman's women's program on the map left to coach SEC as did Clemson's coach.
Butler beat quality schools on their way to the NCAA final's however it doesn't change the fact that there a mid major school,even if they have a good two or three year run it still wont change the fact that they are a mid major and the majority of the top talent will still want to play for a major school. I'm done discussing this topic, its a sensitive subject for most parents.. Hopefully we all helped our daughter make the best personal decision that individually matches her soccer talent... I'm not even going to get into what people are even considering scholarships (only book money,etc).
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At the end of the day how much is pure talent versus contacts and relationships. Sweet Feet, if your daughter had stayed in SC and not made the contacts, relationships, and exposure from IMG do you think she would have had as many offers from your "majors"? Are there any 2011,2012 SC players being sought heavily after by the majors or making the region III team. SC has a U17 and U16 club team that have done decent in the region III premier league which have some of the top teams in the nation but no player good enough to make the region III ODP team? My guess is the same skilled player has more opportunities playing for a club out of Ga, FL,TX, or NC then out of SC. Maybe USC's success will bring more attention to SC but it appears the better USC gets, the less they seem to look at SC players even with their star player coming from SC. Remember they recruited her when they weren't doing very well. Look at the 2011 commits so far for SC and Clemson. SC commitments are from Canada, NJ, Penn and Clemson are from California and NC. I would assume by now the 2011 verbal commits are where the colleges have invested their scholarship money. Some already have their 2012 commits.
I think also sweet feet might have misspoke slightly when he said that we all help our daughters to make the best personal decision that individually matches her soccer talent because I'm guessing 99%, including sweet feet, are helping their daughters make the best personal college decision that matches not just her soccer talent but her academic, personality and financial situation. She has to feel good about the school with and without soccer. 99% of the players will need a means to support themselves in a way besides soccer when they graduate.
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scwame has nailed it! In the end, isn't what everyone talks about being the right "fit? What is most important for the player which is boils down to an individual decision? The best advice my daughter got early on when she started her college selection process was "Assume you blow you ACL in the first season as a freshman, the most important question is Will you be happy there as a student first and an athelete second? Will you be challenged? Will you be a better person by your experience? Along with finances, that in itself will determine size and/or location of school. Then go look for the soccer program that best matches your what you are looking for." Sure we would all love for our daughters to be playing at national NCAA Division 1 soccer program in the Final 4, Elite 8, Sweet 16, but parental egos aside... don't we want them to be the best young adults they can be while enjoying and growing through collegiate soccer expereinces? We are all very lucky and blessed to have daughters who will receive better and less expensive educations as a result of their youth soccer experiences. They are very gifted students and athletes that makes them unique individuals as a combination of these abilities along with a dedication and love for their sport.
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Thoughts from the elderly: 1. There are five types of "D1" situations: full scholarship where you start, full scholarship where you play but don't start, full scholarship where you get there and never play; partial scholarship; walk on. In every one of these situations, the player can say that they "played D1 ball". Long, long time ago, I had a full scholarship to Clemson to play basketball, but went to Davidson and walked on and played (never got a scholarship). I "played D1 ball" but in reality didn't play a lot but I got two years of the experience. 2. EVERY young soccer player has a day in their future where their career will slow down dramatically or end. It is not a matter of if, but when. They may be 50, but it will eventually stop. 3. Most importantly, in my personal opinion, is that your daughter remembers that she is a daughter who plays soccer instead of a soccer player who happens to be a daughter. D1, D3, community college - my grandsons could care less what level I played at or what sport. Time is coming where the kind of person you are is much more important than the level you played at or the sport. 4. Best coach/athlete conversation that I have ever heard was between Hershey Strosberg (Clemson) and my daughter Marissa. Hershey watched her very early this year after promising Marissa to wait until she had finished rehab. She could barely run in early February, but he kept his promise. He told her that: (1) she could play D1; (2) with the record in the ACC that last year's Clemson team had, he had to recruit players who were exceptionally better than the current level just to compete in the ACC which I believe is very realistic; (3) she could play at Clemson, but she might not play very much and she might never get on the field if they were able to recruit the kind of kids he hoped to recruit. FLAT HONEST - I loved every word,and Marissa did too. End result - Hershey recruits the ESPN player of the year as a striker (160+ career goals; POY 3 times), and Marissa is going to Clemson as student tickled to death. If it is that important to a young lady to play in college at some level, I do hope that they make it. My advice would be to let them enjoy every day of this and not push some possibly unreasonable goal on them that an injury or change in their life might make impossible. They are only kids once. ROH 
Retired, Old, Happy, and off into the sunset
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roh - very nice post and i believe more coaches today are giving players a honest assessment up front about their fit and amount of playing time to expect. i have a question for you regarding clemson and hs but will start another post as not to highjack this one.
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I think coaches have been honest for a while. And, I think the players have known what level they belong at for a while. The problem is parents. Parents' expectations, their translation/perception of what a coach actually tells them and the image of the decision play big factors in the college process. You can tell from this thread that some want you to know "my kid was good enough for conference or school X but chose Y because........" Who cares? As long as the kid is happy, who cares? Justification is not needed.
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ROH - your post is very insightful. Kids need to remember the main reason they go to school is to get an education. You are "spot on" in knowing a kid's athletic career can end at any point - and WILL end someday.
I've seen your daughter play and admired her talents. Among other quality soccer traits, she has "court sense" - can't imagine where she gets that from?!?! Clemson has a strong club soccer program - your daughter is probably already aware of that. Plenty of kids who are capable of playing D1 soccer are involved in the club program and do it because they love the game. It's easy to see your daughter loves the game.
Looking forward to the HS/Clemson discussion, assuming "HS" is Hershey Strosberg and not "high school". We know some quality kids who left the program this year and wonder what happened. It would seem that lots of folks are watching HS to see how successful that program will be.
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At the end of the day how much is pure talent versus contacts and relationships. Sweet Feet, if your daughter had stayed in SC and not made the contacts, relationships, and exposure from IMG do you think she would have had as many offers from your "majors"? Are there any 2011,2012 SC players being sought heavily after by the majors or making the region III team. SC has a U17 and U16 club team that have done decent in the region III premier league which have some of the top teams in the nation but no player good enough to make the region III ODP team? My guess is the same skilled player has more opportunities playing for a club out of Ga, FL,TX, or NC then out of SC. Maybe USC's success will bring more attention to SC but it appears the better USC gets, the less they seem to look at SC players even with their star player coming from SC. Remember they recruited her when they weren't doing very well. Look at the 2011 commits so far for SC and Clemson. SC commitments are from Canada, NJ, Penn and Clemson are from California and NC. I would assume by now the 2011 verbal commits are where the colleges have invested their scholarship money. Some already have their 2012 commits.
I think also sweet feet might have misspoke slightly when he said that we all help our daughters to make the best personal decision that individually matches her soccer talent because I'm guessing 99%, including sweet feet, are helping their daughters make the best personal college decision that matches not just her soccer talent but her academic, personality and financial situation. She has to feel good about the school with and without soccer. 99% of the players will need a means to support themselves in a way besides soccer when they graduate.
scwame:
You have brought up an excellent point about academics. One of the factors that helped my daughter make her decision was the academic resources set aside for the athlete's at her university. In addition to the normal assistance that a regular student receives, as a soccer player my daughter has
access to a multitude of academic services. The soccer team enjoys a full time academic advisor with a full time staff of tutors that are available 24/7, yes 24/7, and a spanking new technology center only available to athlete's. So maybe delta dog is right, it doesn't matter whether you attend a mid major or a major soccer program as long as they provide the academic assistance that you'll require as a student athlete. So now that we have discussed the academic side of things is it time to start discussing soccer facilities (fields,practice fields,housing etc.,,) and the different levels of support (not just financial) certain programs receive from the administration.
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I know I'm months late but I'm bored and I find it interesting.
1. I think we should work on titles of posts as this thread deals with females.
2. Neither Dempsey nor Clark graduated from Furman.
3. SEC is not a major soccer conference for the men as they do not even sponsor a championship. Only USC and Kentucky have teams. Off the top of my head, I would say the only traditionally strong womens team is Florida.
4. I was searching for a thread about in-state vs. out-of-state recruiting because I was talking with a friend who works at North Greenville. Being curious, I checked their men's soccer situation. The majority of their players are from SC and I think they only had one foreigner. This past season they lost to Anderson 3-2, but conversely, Anderson had something like 16 foreigners and only one player from SC. I find it hard to believe that SC schools couldn't be competitive with local players. As a matter of fact, it bothers me that some state supported schools don't have more sc players. Maybe it's just that they don't want to go there. Just a thought.
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