SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Club Soccer & ODP Has the Tide Turned?

Received an e-mail telling me I needed to look at the latest results and discussions - really fascinating stuff. I spent a fun hour last night reading - and since I don't have much time these days, it speaks well to the entertainment content of the board (I mean this sincerely.) Several notes.

As someone with no ties to anything related to youth soccer these days, I thought that the results of the U13/U14 matches were significant. I think that this speaks to the success that CUFC (honestly, I haven't kept up with all of the name changes - so substitute whatever acronym works best for you here) had in terms of its agreements with various local programs that have allowed it to tout the "we're the largest club in the state" meme. U13/U14 is in my mind an important age group - and I always thought that the entire hypocritical stupidity around "recruiting" was best exposed by the success/failure of clubs in this age group. So say what you want, I think that the poster who asked whether the "tide has turned" is asking the right question. Whether it has or not - and whether this is a one year anomaly or the start of a trend - is a fascinating and debatable question.

Successful youth soccer clubs are like successful anything else - success in and of itself tends to be hard to sustain because you get happy with what you're doing and you don't have that same drive for success. Whether this last state cup serves as a wake up call and strategies are changed or not is an interesting question.

The win/win in youth soccer is about driving more participation at its base - at the lowest level and youngest level of the sport. I think CUFC's work here is paying off - and I'd like to see other clubs focus on this as well.

As one other aside. I realize that I am completely ignorant in terms of identities on this message board (I had hundreds of posts with my full name on them on this board before I publicly changed my name), but I found the outing of Happy Daddy to be pretty fascinating. When I got the e-mail, I had to re-load all of the old posts to get my bearings - but once I did and read all of the accusations and criticisms of all things CESA (I'll never forget the question to the Heise's accusing them of having sold their soul to the devil!) - well, pretty fascinating.

I'll admit that I lack the moral and ethical flexibility to make a Krugman-esque leap to accusations of "intellectual incoherence" when people say things with which I simply disagree. Who am I to say - perhaps an accusation of intellectual incoherence is made from a subjective point of view and speaks more to the person's comprehension of the argument rather than the argument itself.

But then again one of my favorite quotes is Emerson's "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds." I'll admit to not having received the legal training to act as a contortionist when it comes to being a passionate advocate - regardless of fact - for the side with whom I have a relationship. Then again, I'm kind of glad I'm out of this - I'd hate to have that type of relationship, be posting on a message board behind an assumed name concerning rumors of children defecting to a program in which I was involved while simultaneously accusing the nefarious "others" of "recruiting."

Good to read your comments again. I miss your posts, intellect, and insight. Don't be a stranger!

He's ALIVE........the Legend lives on!

Very curious as to why the Mount Pleasant Soccer Club would need a "partner" or a "life line", especially on the girls side where they boast perhaps the best U-12 and U-13 teams in the state. As The Master says above, this is the critical age group.

Don't think the girls at the beach need that much help. Life along the Wando seems to be going just fine.

Goodness, they've recruited Shibumi to make an appearance. Are you out of season?

I'll just address the couple of things you said that were related to my posts.

First - I have no recollection of accusing any Heise of anything. Since you didn't clearly say that it was I, I have to assume it was someone else. If you have a quote from me, I'd be interested to see it.

Second - congratulations on knowing the complete Emerson quote. Too many people omit the "foolish" element. I assume then that you know that what Emerson meant by "foolish" was "without regard to facts and reality." So, is my consistency foolish in that sense?

My criticism that has riled was of a coach of 12 year old kids who declined to honor the award ceremony convention of giving out his team medals and saying a few gracious and uplifting words to his team and the opposing 12 year old kids. I was accused of inconsistency (ironic - no?) and hypocrisy on the grounds that I had previously criticized behavior that I considered inimical to the best interests of youth soccer. Say whatever else you want about that argument but you can't say it's intellectually coherent. It's not a question of subjective disagreement with the point. The assertion makes no sense.

Third, I have no idea what "rumors" about kids leaving one club for another you are suggesting I've pedalled. I'm sure I've never commented on any kid leaving CESA for the Academy, as either fact or rumor. Any criticism I've made of CESA and its recruiting (note the absence of "scare quotes") has been made on personal knowledge. I also need to challenge your assertion that I "[criticize] all things CESA." In fact, my criticism has been very narrow and I have had positive and complimentary things to say about the club, coaches and players on many occasions. That takes us to my final, but admittedly long, point.

In your last paragraph you came close to raising an interesting question, but didn't quite. Because I think it is important and incorporates much of the rest of what we're talking about (and have talked about in the past), I'll raise it myself.

The question is this: If recruiting is bad for youth soccer, why is it not bad when the Development Academy does it? The answer boils down to the "why." Let me acknowledge from the top that there is a great deal of subjectivity inherent in what I'm going to say. Some will disagree vehemently with my interpretations - and that's just fine. The Development Academy is a fundamentally different program from USYS/SCYS. The structure is different and the goals are different. The DA exists, essentially, for one purpose - to develop the best individual male youth soccer players in the country. US Soccer has determined that the way to do that is to train intensively and play fewer, and only, highly competitive games. One of the charges on DA clubs is to identify the guys in their area who have the potential to benefit from the program and to develop into national level players. The goal is not to build a team that will beat Concorde Fire or CASL - it is to find individuals who can be developed into a National Team player. When identified, those kids are invited to try out.

Now, contrast that with the "why" of the recruiting I have criticized. (Here come the opinions - based on fact, but opinions nontheless - with which some will hotly disagree). Recruiting for the dual purpose of strengthing my team and weakening the other team, so that my team is more likely to win, is not in anyone's best interests (except perhaps the coach or club - but why should anyone care about that?). Why recruit a kid from 150 miles away and tell him he only has to train with the team once a week or once every two weeks? Is the goal to make that kid a better soccer player, or to have the team win more games? Who is benefitting from that arrangement? I understand that the player is making the final decision, but my interest is in the motivation of the recruiter, not the recruitee. I think that's an important consideration.

I try very hard to be rationally consistent in advocating for practices that are good for youth soccer and criticizing those that aren't. When considering which is which, the only appropriate question, in my opinion, is - what is in the best interest of advancing the goals of the individual player? If I'm asking myself - what will make my team stronger, the other teams weaker, and will improve my/our chances of winning - I'm asking the wrong question. That there are kids and parents who's goal is primarily to play for a winning team/club I have no doubt. That does not mean the original question was the appropriate one.

I am particularly proud of the fact that, when talking to kids and parents about playing in the DA, our coaches, if they conclude that that the individual is not interested in our club, for whatever reason, will always encourage them to tryout for another DA club. Why would we do that? Because we're asking the right question of ourselves - what is in the best interest of the player, not - what is in our best interest as a team or club.

Many, but not all, clubs and coaches have the same view of things. That's why we have kids coming from all over - because most coaches and clubs are proud and pleased to have developed young players who are ready to take the next step in their development, even if it means that the "loss" of the player(s) will make other teams within the club less competitive. I'll point specifically to Dom Wren and Kian Brownlee. They're asking the right question of themselves. I should also point out that I have been very critical of some within the SCUtd family who have been too slow to embrace this attitude - though that has been in private.
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While I have no problem having this discussion in public - I'm happy to do it by PM if you think it might be tedious for everyone else to do it here.

Without taking sides.....very good post Happy Daddy.

Change never comes easy. Changing a belief system is about impossible.

CESA is an excellent club that lapped the state 5-7 years ago when the 2 clubs merged. While its too soon to say that SC United has now lapped CESA....the model is powerful enough to do so if they can manage the change. The jury is out on that one for another year or two.

It was nice to read Shibumi again, who I have said in the past reminds me a lot of George Will. Intelligent and well written, at the end he is still an advocate for a particular view. One can enjoy the writing and the passion without subscribing to the underlying belief.

Thanks to you folks for the kind words and informed debate. I've always thought that posting without fully engaging in the arguments of other wasn't what I wanted to do - and that's the reason for my very few posts (on the order of 1-2 a year) these days. So I'm going to address several points regarding a few of the things noted above - and then fade away to my much more mundane realities these days of helping a startup VC-based company become successful.

Big Daddy - Regarding "underlying belief", it would be fascinating for me to understand the perspective of what the underlying belief system is that I exhibit. I personally like the quote from Keynes: "When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do, sir?" It would be easy to state that the recent results in the U13/U14 year age groups were an anomaly and didn't matter - that would fall into a belief system consistent with "CESA good; CUFC bad." I think that the facts are that large clubs who work their tails off with large younger populations will perform better - and that CUFC has executed on that model better than CESA. I believe that CESA should increase its outreach and size in the recreation area - but I've believed that since the club was formed.

Regarding the well-written post from Happy Daddy - I think you hit at the heart of a core issue that I continue to see as a problem not only in terms of youth club soccer, but in terms of many of the ills of the world at large. You make the case that recruiting is good if done by someone with good motivations and bad if done by someone with bad motivations. Difficult to argue. And yet by fundamentally believing that the motivations of "others" are bad and that "our" motivations are good - and thus judging the same behavior differently - we get at the heart of a lot of distrust and even hatred in the world.

This is the skill I've never mastered - and what I refer to as the ability of an intellectual contortionist - judging the same results and behaviors differently by ascribing positive and negative motivations to those based on my own biases. It is self-limiting - I'd be a better advocate for a point of view if I could ascribe to the "my club, right or wrong" perspective - but I've always thought that the "best idea" theory was more workable.

My point would be that in all my years associated with youth soccer, I never met a coach who I thought was behaving from "bad motivations." Do these coaches want to win? Sure. But from Phil Savitz and Chris Fryland wanting my daughter to play for CUFC to Andrew Hyslop at CESA wanting her to play at CESA - they all behaved ethically and they all wanted what's best for my daughter. Did they have different beliefs about what might be best for my daughter? Sure. But I expected that - and I understood their perspective.

Your interest are aligned with the Developmental Academy. Now that this is public information, it's more possible to assess your postings from that perspective. But what you see as the strengths of "your" program - I see throughout most coaches at most clubs in the state. I've posted on this before - but a club 100 miles away from my home allowed my kid in 8th grade to play against Division 1 colleges and to practice with Division 1 college coaches when she wasn't able to travel to their program. They allowed her to do 4 hour practices sequentially with boys and girls teams when she did go up there. They encouraged her to practice with competitive summer-league clubs with nationally ranked boys and girls programs.

But there were coaches from more local clubs who welcomed her and created coach-to-coach agreements for her to practice with the best boys and girls in the area as well. From the Aiken clubs to Lexington clubs to Columbia clubs - lots of coaches did wonderful things that always put kids first. And that's my bias. I think that almost all of the coaches in these clubs have the best interest of kids at heart. I think that many of the parents don't - they have the best interest of their particular child at heart. I understand the parent perspective - but I don't endorse it.

My kid wears an SEC championship ring today - and she was able to play for that college team in part because of a lot of coaches from a lot of different clubs who all did their best for her. Aiken Fire, the acronyms for Lexington clubs, CSC, CUFC (and other acronyms), GSC, CESA, etc. - they didn't ask her to sacrifice for their club - heck, they didn't ask her to sacrifice academically - almost every one went out of their way to help her achieve what she wanted.

So while I know you believe that the entity that you act as the board leader for is operating from "good" motivations while others are operating from "bad" - I just don't see it. I don't see anything wrong with the development academy stuff (beyond the misogyny ) - it's yet more choice for kids and that's a good thing - but it didn't invent the concept of "putting kids first" - a ton of clubs and coaches over the years did that and are doing that.

CESA is an excellent club that lapped the state 5-7 years ago when the 2 clubs merged. While its too soon to say that SC United has now lapped CESA....the model is powerful enough to do so if they can manage the change. The jury is out on that one for another year or two.

Wasn't CESA in 2 finals that were decided in PK's that could have gone either way.

Also I think the U13 CUFC team beat CESA U-12 Premier boys by only 1 in State Cup, hardly a blow out with a younger team.

Shibumi,
Nice posts..And very much true..While I did not always agree with every coach that my daughter had..I always felt that they had her best interests at heart..I think most coaches think alike they just have different paths of getting there..Most can not get past the my club vs your club mentality..

What a wonderful time of year for Shibumi to return......and I hope it is not just for a brief moment in time....I too have missed his wisdom....and the brief discussions we had during pre-merger (NECSA & CSC) years.....he will probably remember my somewhat eager desires to see that merger occur....and all the ranting I put forward.....but it did happen and now look where we are today.....? I want to think that we are better off...but reading some of the posts it appears that the ego-driven, 'I-am-better-than-you-are-and-I-want-you-to-know-it' mentality in state soccer has grown to new heights......As I have little knowledge, at this time, as to where this comes from and why it is the way it is..I will refrain from appearing more knowledgeable than I suspect that I wanta be........but after some study and contemplation and after consulting with the Trustees of my Red Neck League...I will come back to the forum hopefully, at least appearing to be more knowledgeable than at the present.....I do want to comment and agree on one pont that Shibumi made -
"Regarding the well-written post from Happy Daddy - I think you hit at the heart of a core issue that I continue to see as a problem not only in terms of youth club soccer, but in terms of many of the ills of the world at large. You make the case that recruiting is good if done by someone with good motivations and bad if done by someone with bad motivations. Difficult to argue. And yet by fundamentally believing that the motivations of "others" are bad and that "our" motivations are good - and thus judging the same behavior differently - we get at the heart of a lot of distrust and even hatred in the world."
It is quite profound this analogy you made of youth soccer ('the beautiful game', the fun, challenging game with its own social environment, the world's game for all peoples, the game that so many love to hate).....that analogy to the ills of the world at large.......and the perceptions of the motivations within each of us when we talk or don't talk to someone, when we relate or don't relate with someone....we create our own distrust and hatred of each other to satisfy our own respective motivations. I thank you for that analogy and again, that wisdom.
In that regard, I will share with you one of my favorite quotations -
'Men build too many walls and not enough bridges.' - Isaac Newton