|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 273
corner kick
|
OP
corner kick
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 273 |
It's all about the money!!!
I see this come up in post after post. Someone always makes the comment that the only reason large youth soccer clubs exist is to make money. So it makes me wonder, do people actually believe this or is it just people "venting"?
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 374
Corner Kick
|
|
Corner Kick
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 374 |
That's a bit unfair. Aren't us little ones allowed to make some money?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 273
corner kick
|
|
OP
corner kick
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 273 |
Quote:
That's a bit unfair. Aren't us little ones allowed to make some money?
All clubs (large and small) have to make money to cover the cost of Coaches, administrators, refs, insurance, field rental, affiliation dues (SYCSA, AYSO, US Club …) in some cases clubs own their fields which adds a whole different set of cost. But you never hear of the smaller clubs being “money driven” or are you saying that at Chainhoy you are in it for the money and not the player? 
I just really want to know how many people out there truly believe youth soccer clubs (and the people who run them) are in it for the money?
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing."
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 44
kick off
|
|
kick off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 44 |
Most clubs are non profit organizations. This of course doesn't mean they don't want to make more money than the rival, but it does give a bit of insight as to where the priorities are. No business can survive without a profit, but it's evident in most clubs that much money ultimately goes back to benefit the player in the end through field maintainence and expansion, as well as special ammenities such as clubhouses and weight rooms. Therefore, the club does essentially exist for the benefit of the player.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 84
throw in
|
|
throw in
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 84 |
As non-profits the clubs must file tax forms with the IRS. You can go to Guidestar and look at the clubs IRS filings.
It is public information.
The clubs must list sources of income and their expenses.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 532
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 532 |
not to muddy the issue but, non-profits are allowed to make a profit.
its just a tax classification & really has nothing to do with this argument
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 86
throw in
|
|
throw in
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 86 |
Which clubs in SC are for profit and which ones are non-profit?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 374
Corner Kick
|
|
Corner Kick
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 374 |
Nonprofit as sandman says isn't really the issue here. I've posted before about the subtle differences and meanings of a nonprofit corporation, tax exempt, and public charity. Any of above can make money but it is just the organizations responsibility to spend it wisely and be held accountable. Public trust issues. We just filed our 2009 papers and I can say we made very little and just donated $500 of what we did back to Cainhoy School and their 'Tiger Buck Store'. We are a public charity by choice, nonprofit and tax exempy under 501c(3). Not saying that to gain any recognition as it is in our mission and values: IT IS EXPECTED, but to point out that you should consider a clubs charter, mission, or values when registering your child (if that is important to you).
I will say I find it odd that some clubs put noncompete clauses on coach contracts if it is 'all about the kids'? That is a question I would ask of your DOC. Can your great coach go over there and help a second set of kids on their day off ? If not, ask why. Protect competitive advantage?, establish differentiator?, worry it will lose you kids? I am very pleased to say we tell our trainers they are welcome to work with whatever club or kids they like as long as they honor our agreement.
I can think of many other telling questions that would tell me a lot about an organization without needing to look at their tax status or incorporation papers (if they are available). Seems to me actions speak louder than words so just check out teh good work your club does whether building fields, donating 20K to the town, or providing scholarships for needy before rushing to judgement on their motive.
satus quod perago validus - start and finish strong
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2
bench
|
|
bench
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 2 |
When in doubt.... follow the money. It usually leads to the root of all action. That works well in the business world, however; i am not so sure that applies across the board concerning athletics.
Most people running these clubs are highly competitive people and want to win. You wont find many of them on Trump's "The Apprentice" or wearing a suit and tie to the office. Club mergers, recruiting etc. are typically about forming a stronger competitive club on the state, regional, or national scene.
Clubs merge to eliminate competition and to grow stronger to compete more successfully against other clubs in the region.
Clubs hold tryout to select the most competitive players for their Premier teams to win state championships.
Clubs recruit players from other clubs to make themselves stronger, not to pad the coffers with additional fees.
Clubs offer "scholarships" to talented players whose families otherwise couldn't afford the fees. This is not humanitarian aid, they want the best players on the field come game time playing for them.
The term "vicious cycle" comes to mind. Clubs take actions to make themselves more competitive, which in turn allows them to win more tournaments or state championships, which in turn makes better players and coaches want to join that club, thus further improving the talent on the team, making them more competitive, and on and on it goes.
Granted it does take money to make the world go around, but i believe the primary motivation is to WIN, and with talent, money also follows.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Not a disagreement, just a follow-up question:
In the cases where a club's primary objective, as you say, is to WIN...
What motivates a club to want to win?
In other words...
"It's important to recruit players and eliminate the competition because it helps us to win."
"It's important to win because..."
?
Last edited by Coach Chass; 05/29/10 05:54 PM.
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 532
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 532 |
Quote:
Not a disagreement, just a follow-up question:
In the cases where a club's primary objective, as you say, is to WIN...
What motivates a club to want to win?
In other words...
"It's important to recruit players and eliminate the competition because it helps us to win."
"It's important to win because..."
?
it brings in more money 
Last edited by sandman; 05/29/10 07:40 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11
bench
|
|
bench
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11 |
why would a club force U-18 B & G to purchase new uniforms for one season(Fall) this is really piss poor for the Club. Not caring that $200+ is way too much to spend on uniforms for these kids only getting one season out of especially with all the money the parents have already put into the club
Last edited by gr8kicks; 06/01/10 01:32 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659
world cup
|
|
world cup
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659 |
gr8kicks, Here is my advice for saving yourself some money on this transaction. Have your U-18 son or daughter pick an obscure jersey number (25 or higher). Keep the kit in decent condition over the five month season. Sell the kit next summer to a player who is new to the club in the Fall of 2011. You should be able to get at least $100 for the jerseys, shorts and hoodie.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
We've used that system to keep people uniformed for a minimal cost for years. If a $60 kit will last for four seasons, then a $200-plus kit should last for...hmm, how's that math work again? Works great until the club decides to go with a completely different kit!
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11
bench
|
|
bench
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11 |
We are getting new Uniforms this year U-18 should not be required to purchase a complete new set
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 630
Goal
|
|
Goal
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 630 |
Quote:
why would a club force U-18 B & G to purchase new uniforms for one season(Fall) this is really piss poor for the Club. Not caring that $200+ is way too much to spend on uniforms for these kids only getting one season out of especially with all the money the parents have already put into the club
What club?
Victory Starts Here!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659
world cup
|
|
world cup
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,659 |
Quote:
We are getting new Uniforms this year U-18 should not be required to purchase a complete new set
I know you are getting new uniforms this year, there are always going to be U-18's that end up on the front year of the 2-year cycle. UNIFORM, by definition, means everybody in the club wears the same thing. Follow my suggestion outlined above and try to get at least 50% of your money back next year.
Good luck.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
It's unfortunate, but like Hurst says, someone is going to get caught at the transition of the uniform cycle no matter what.
'Course, the club COULD say the U18 teams can use the kits they already own for their last season, and everyone U17 and below buys the new kits and moves up with them, getting at least two seasons out of them. We did that last year since all but a couple of players already had uniforms for their last season. That would only really work, though, if everyone on the U18 teams is a true U18...anyone playing up in age group would have to buy the new kit next year, probably with the same one-season use. Transition is going to catch someone.
Now, $200 for a uniform kit is another matter...and we wonder why so many people in America regard soccer as an "elite" sport.
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11
bench
|
|
bench
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 11 |
That is what has happen in the past for the U-18's I know we have been with this club for sevearl years. I think it is alot to ask a parent to drop for One season no matter the level --Classic, Challenge, or Premier These kind of things are what hurt SC in keeping player involved
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Goes back to that most basic principle of economics--the "value" of something is exactly what a sufficient number of people are willing to pay for it...no more, no less.
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 218
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 218 |
Quote:
Quote:
why would a club force U-18 B & G to purchase new uniforms for one season(Fall) this is really piss poor for the Club. Not caring that $200+ is way too much to spend on uniforms for these kids only getting one season out of especially with all the money the parents have already put into the club
What club?
your a dumbass..... SCUFC south carolina united you chotch
Burrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 44
kick off
|
|
kick off
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 44 |
The hard thing is, too, that most uniforms after 3 years are discontinued so people new to the team cannot get them. Hurst's post about selling after u18 sounds like the best idea. It sounds like you play CESA (as you listed classic, challenge, premier) and if so, they have a trade and sell page on the website in the upper right-hand corner under the "more" tab. Good luck.
Last edited by goalstop; 06/01/10 05:11 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 273
corner kick
|
|
OP
corner kick
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 273 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
why would a club force U-18 B & G to purchase new uniforms for one season(Fall) this is really piss poor for the Club. Not caring that $200+ is way too much to spend on uniforms for these kids only getting one season out of especially with all the money the parents have already put into the club
What club?
your a dumbass..... SCUFC south carolina united you chotch
Not SCUFC if it is 200+. I just purchased one @ 175.00. Granted still expensive but it is what it is. I went through the same thing with my oldest at 18...no good answer to the situation but as those familiar with uniform cycles can attest it is the manufactures that set the cycle not the clubs (for the most part.)
"We do not quit playing because we grow old, we grow old because we quit playing."
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 319
Corner Kick
|
|
Corner Kick
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 319 |
Yeah under armour is expensive!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 21
bench
|
|
bench
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 21 |
the club at 250.00 is cesa
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
So, curious...what does $250 buy you, kit-wise?
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
These same parents and kids that complain about the cost of uniforms have no problem dropping $200.00 dollars on a pair of designer jeans $200.00-$1,000.00 dollars on a purse and we wont even start on shoes. And do not say not my kid, your wife is being being less than honest when she tells you how much she paid for your daughters designer jeans. And yes there is always an exception out there.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521 |
Uniform costs is uniforms costs..It should not be a reflection of the club..I guess clubs could choose a cheaper kit and I'm sure some do..Our costs? Three shirts,shorts and socks..167 dollars
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1
bench
|
|
bench
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 1 |
CESA kit is $212 and you get three shirts/pants/socks, and a hoodie. They are on a three year cycle for getting new kits.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 374
Corner Kick
|
|
Corner Kick
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 374 |
When we were forming we had several debates about uniform options. It does make a difference and was ranked highly by our original parents as something to manage responsibly.
I remember my son playing for an academy team and having so many pairs of shorts that at the end of a season he still had two colors unused in packets, and in a season of 8-10 games three shirts was probably overkill.
Two of us are English and so growing up we were used to the concept of team kit (in a bag). Basically the club (team) owns the strip and you just wear it for the game. Some unlucky parent gets the washing duties but no cost associated for the parents. This way the team just updates the uniform when it is literally falling apart. Now of course we polled our moms and soon found out that this would not have a hope of seeing light of day for some of our parents who would see this as 'hand me downs' or dirty. For the record, as a kid, I never had a problem with it. Oh the good old days playing on a hillside in Sussex with rain blowing sideways across the 18 yard box. Trust me when you're that wet and cold as a 12 year old, the last thing you are worrying about is the brand or style of your jersey.
Actually we did sneak this in for our away jerseys last season and our boys didn't care. They actually loved getting a different jersey to wear and we didn't ask the parents for a dime.
Now we all know today uniform manufacturers court clubs with good incentives and freebies to select a style or brand and like any incentive, I suspect the higher the cost of the kit(and scale), the larger the incentive so to answer your original question on this topic I would say decisions are guided with a financial motive to some degree or other. Now on the other hand, if you are running an elite program and want to offer only the best and parents expect latest, greatest, and best kit, you always have to pay for that quality of service and that may be appropriate based on club goals and priorities.
satus quod perago validus - start and finish strong
|
|
|
|
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 158
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 158 |
My son's Academy team gives out home and away jerseys and collects them at the end of the season. The boys buy their own shorts, socks, and practice tees, which they obviously keep. It actually works pretty well.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 86
throw in
|
|
throw in
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 86 |
In this post I've seen $167, $175, $212, and $250. Seems like a big range of pricing for the kits.
1) Do clubs get a discount on the amount of uniforms they agree to purchase? Bigger the club cheaper the kit?
2) Is there that much of a difference in quality of these kits? Addidas, Nike, Under Armour?
3)Does all of the money from these kits go back to the seller/manufacturer of the kits?
4)Do clubs profit in $$$ from these kits?
Just wondering!!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521 |
The 167 I quoted was what you need to get by..If we bought everything it would be well over 200..Don't know if there is a difference in quality..My daughter had UA last season and already wore a nice hole in the shorts in the first season..I prefer adidas..They seem to hold up thru the multiple washings.practices and games..
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 404
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 404 |
To my knowledge, the answers are:
1. Yes, there is a volume discount
2. Every company has different lines (some more than others) that range in price according to the quality of the fabric and styling elements.
3. The kits are generally purchased through a local retailer, at prices governed by multi-year agreements with the supplier. I assume the retailers' margins vary but are below normal retail.
4. I doubt that clubs use uniform purchases as a profit center, but can't swear to it.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Nike kits...2 jerseys (home and away colors), shorts, socks. Many got passed down from player to player, were used at least 4 seasons, and still look decent. Under $80. I'm just sayin'.
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 132
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 132 |
CESA -2 jerseys 90,2 shorts 90,2 pair socks 20....the CESA experience ,priceless!! 
Relax...breathe,then bust it!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Quote:
These same parents and kids that complain about the cost of uniforms have no problem dropping $200.00 dollars on a pair of designer jeans $200.00-$1,000.00 dollars on a purse and we wont even start on shoes. And do not say not my kid, your wife is being being less than honest when she tells you how much she paid for your daughters designer jeans. And yes there is always an exception out there.
$1000 for a purse,eh? Must be nice to be middle class...
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 32
kick off
|
|
kick off
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 32 |
That is the best point i have heard all day. Thats up there
with "Johnny or Suzies soccer ball cost twenty bucks but i going to buy that $ 100.00 bottle of Scotch instead" When we all know when you play soccer we parents need to be drinking $ 5.00 bottle of Ripple !
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
Quote:
CESA -2 jerseys 90,2 shorts 90,2 pair socks 20....the CESA experience ,priceless!!
First Plane trip
Trip to Ground Zero
Shopping on Canal Street
Visiting Time Square
Riding Subway
Playing three quality soccer matches
The CESA Experience, Priceless!!!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 132
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 132 |
when sweet feet was selling CESA kits ,we had to buy them every year,no wonder he could retire at harbour bay yacht club!! 
Relax...breathe,then bust it!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 374
Corner Kick
|
|
Corner Kick
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 374 |
Quote:
1) Do clubs get a discount on the amount of uniforms they agree to purchase? Bigger the club cheaper the kit?
2) Is there that much of a difference in quality of these kits? Addidas, Nike, Under Armour?
3)Does all of the money from these kits go back to the seller/manufacturer of the kits?
4)Do clubs profit in $$$ from these kits?
Just wondering!!!
In my experience. Most of it very recent
1. Not sure discounts are applied on size of club but certainly on number of jerseys ordered. Some like Score (sponsor of our State Association) actually provide price lists with sliding scale based on units ordered. For the record we happily use Score (and thank them for Statewide support of soccer) in our Little Kickers (3-8) program and are delighted with the product and pricing. We get uniform jerseys for < $8 each that includes our horse logo (4") and number and the printing quality and style is top notch. When you consider typical printing costs alone for crest and number run $5 - $6 per jersey you see the value. Our parents (and kids) are delighted the little ones get a jersey that makes them feel special (compared to discount printed T found in most rec programs) and a delta of cost to us of only $2 to a discount printed T. My youngest (4) has worn hers for two seasons now and it has held up very well.
2. Even within manufacturers there is wide variety of quality. The old maxim generally applies in this regard 'you get what you pay for'. We use baseline adidas jersey and it is prone to snagging. But at < $15 each (retail cost), not a huge issue. I like adidas as a brand in general but that is mainly 'old school' thinking. I've always admired German manufacturing from Mercedes, Audi, Porsche, and BMW (bet sweet has one of them) to adidas and Puma.
3. and 4 together. Manufacturers and retailers work together to provide clubs option. Either local or not. For example we discussed using Nike with Local retailer and Puma with National outlet/retailer. 'Profit' is returned to the club usually in the way of incentives/kickbacks (perhaps in equipment or coaching gear). Margins are lower than retailers on these bulk contracts but then volume and revenue is so much higher. Retailers and distributors often make a little beyond the margin if they are handling and charging for customizations (printing numbers, etc.). Our proposed Puma deal was charging $5.50 for this and most digital transfers of crests will run $1 to $1.50 and mass purchased numbers 40 cents or so. Of course this also takes machinery (heat press that can run $800) and labor charges. Of course anyone can go online to mass retailers and discount wharehouses, buy 300 and print themselves that would surely cut some cost especially if those savings were passed back down to parents but that is going to require effort and often it is easier (and better) to leave supplying equipment and kits to the professionals who can hold inventory, respond rapidly, and better serve the consumer.
In the end analysis I don't think these expensive uniform options are designed to make a ton of money, but more for marketing and establishing differentiators against others that will draw more kids (talented ones particularly like the cool stuff as they watch it on TV) and therefore fees.
Surely a few bucks is made either directly or indirectly through equipment they would have to buy anyway.
In the grand scheme of things, I'm sure there are more profitable areas of club operations where decisions are made, and pricing is set that will generate more cash to oil the machine.
satus quod perago validus - start and finish strong
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558
Goal
|
|
Goal
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558 |
Not sure the $200+ mentioned for uniforms would be gaining such a reaction had it not been added on top of the $1000+ in club fees, not including tournament fees, travel (first plane ride, second plane ride, third plane ride...) and expenses.
Last edited by DeltaDog; 06/05/10 07:20 PM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 78
throw in
|
|
throw in
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 78 |
DeltaDog. you must have a daughter on one of the CESA teams.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 132
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 132 |
Relax...breathe,then bust it!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558
Goal
|
|
Goal
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558 |
Actually, I have more than one daughter and/or son playing, as do many families. Sweet Feet is right in one regard, the experience is incredible. But at the end of the month one realizes that experience is far from without a price.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
I am 100% certain that if you added up all the scholarship money that the CESA 92 girls premier players are receiving it would far exceed the amount of money parents have spent on travel, dues, uniforms etc...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558
Goal
|
|
Goal
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558 |
100% sure on a per player basis?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
Quote:
100% sure on a per player basis?
I am not aware what every player received, however I will stand by by original statement that the amount of scholarship money far exceeds what parents have spent on club soccer. I am certain what my daughter received and feel very confident what 3-4 other players are receiving, and with those five players the sum is enough to tip the table in terms of scholarship money.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558
Goal
|
|
Goal
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558 |
So, you're saying the return on investments for some should be considered as return on investments for the whole? Somehow, unless the colleges are donating to a team scholarship pool to be evenly distributed amongst all of the players, I'm having a little trouble following.
However, getting back to the original post of this thread and given our discussion on justifying the cost of playing through the potential ROI of a college scholarship, then perhaps it really is... all about the money.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558
Goal
|
|
Goal
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558 |
Sweet Feet, I do understand your point and enjoy the exchange. But, here's the part I hate about this discussion.
I've always tried to impress upon my own that you play the game for the love of the game. That's it. And, if you find the effort you put into playing the game well is based on "Will I get a scholarship" or similarly "Will mom give me a dollar for every goal I score", then you're playing for the wrong reason. If you apply your talent and hard work and are fortunate enough to excel and become successful at playing the game well that you love, other things may follow. They may not. But, you play for the love of the game.
The threshhold of what each individual family can afford differs, and when the cost exceeds affordable we either lose players or begin replacing the incentive of love for the game with "How can I make some money out of this?". That's the part I hate.
Last edited by DeltaDog; 06/06/10 03:01 AM.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
Quote:
Sweet Feet, I do understand your point and enjoy the exchange. But, here's the part I hate about this discussion.
I've always tried to impress upon my own that you play the game for the love of the game. That's it. And, if you find the effort you put into playing the game well is based on "Will I get a scholarship" or similarly "Will mom give me a dollar for every goal I score", then you're playing for the wrong reason. If you apply your talent and hard work and are fortunate enough to accel and become successful at playing the game well that you love, other things may follow. They may not. But, you play for the love of the game.
The threshhold of what each individual family can afford differs, and when the cost exceeds affordable we either lose players or begin replacing the incentive of love for the game with "How can I make some money out of this?". That's the part I hate.
Excellent post, I totally agree. However,I have a problem coming up with a single premier impact player who has quit due to finances. Some quit when they realize they do not have the talent to play at the next level and there parents always mention the money. News flash to parents, our children realize how costly travel soccer is, there is no need to remind them everyday and put undo pressure on them, just give positive encouragement.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 188
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 188 |
Seems like these discussions always get back to premier girls. Sure, a lot of girls are getting scholarship money but overall, what is the percentage of players getting money. Guys get less money and part of the reason is the NCAA alots fewer scholarships to men's teams (see titleIX). And, I may be wrong, but I think there are more guys teams per age group. I know that for next fall, CESA has 4 teams @u15. Premier, Challenge and 2 Classic, all of who have to buy the $212 kit, pay the $200whatever to the club, plus money to the team. So I think that the whole scholarship only holds water for a select few, not the majority.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558
Goal
|
|
Goal
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558 |
Quote:
Excellent post, I totally agree. However,I have a problem coming up with a single premier impact player who has quit due to finances. Some quit when they realize they do not have the talent to play at the next level and there parents always mention the money. News flash to parents, our children realize how costly travel soccer is, there is no need to remind them everyday and put undo pressure on them, just give positive encouragement.
What about those that are already committed to play at the college level, but leave to play elsewhere and pocket up to $1000+ in change? Can it be assumed money wasn't at least part of the decision?
kdlsc makes a good point. The challenge players pay the same fees as the premier (understand there would be a difference in travel expenses). Since fees differ from one club to another, I wonder if challenge players at one club could pay more than premier players at another.
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
So if I'm reading correctly...the math works out great if you're one of the five receiving the scholarships, and if everybody invests a significant amount of money to create a team that enables a small percentage to get back more than the entire team invested, then that's good business for everyone.
That about sum it up?
I still remember reading the article last year about the family at a big Arizona club who estimated they had invested about $40,000 over the years in soccer training and their daughter got a $16,000 scholarship. The upside was, she enjoyed the experience and loved the sport, the people she played it with, and the lessons learned...can't crunch numbers on things like that.
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 86
throw in
|
|
throw in
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 86 |
This might be why 1 club has lost their girls challenge team from last year except for the goalie. Talked to one parent from that team who's player had no interest in playing college soccer,but just liked to play. The parent told me 2 reasons they quit was the price tag was just to high, and the player wanted to enjoy their last year in high school.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 188
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 188 |
Uncle Buck,
I believe it. While others said that they knew of no Premier players to stop playing because of finances, I think with the economy the way it is, the lower levels might decide the time and expense is not worth the missed other experiences. Let's face it, at least at CESA, it seems that the elevator only goes down. In our age group, the one or two players over the last 5 years that have gone from challenge to premier were dropped back down the next year. When they (premier) want to get better, they look outside the club (my problem is there is no real development going on--in our age group anyways). Oh, and add to the cost, team camp. Now that we are not academy age, team camp is not residential. I glossed over the details because we can't afford to send our son, but it was something over $300 if paid early, over $500 after. For camp that you drop them off at the club fields in the a.m. and pick them up in the p.m.! I guess they have to pay the college coaches well--even though they are getting a free recruiting week.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
Quote:
So if I'm reading correctly...the math works out great if you're one of the five receiving the scholarships, and if everybody invests a significant amount of money to create a team that enables a small percentage to get back more than the entire team invested, then that's good business for everyone.
That about sum it up?
I still remember reading the article last year about the family at a big Arizona club who estimated they had invested about $40,000 over the years in soccer training and their daughter got a $16,000 scholarship. The upside was, she enjoyed the experience and loved the sport, the people she played it with, and the lessons learned...can't crunch numbers on things like that.
I just mentioned the five that I had knowledge of the amount of the scholarship money, by the end of summer each player will have received money to play college soccer.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
Quote:
This might be why 1 club has lost their girls challenge team from last year except for the goalie. Talked to one parent from that team who's player had no interest in playing college soccer,but just liked to play. The parent told me 2 reasons they quit was the price tag was just to high, and the player wanted to enjoy their last year in high school.
You are friends with most on the challenge team, can you name one of the families on that team that can't afford for there daughter to play? I think not.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 293
corner kick
|
|
corner kick
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 293 |
Quote:
Uncle Buck,
I believe it. While others said that they knew of no Premier players to stop playing because of finances, I think with the economy the way it is, the lower levels might decide the time and expense is not worth the missed other experiences. Let's face it, at least at CESA, it seems that the elevator only goes down. In our age group, the one or two players over the last 5 years that have gone from challenge to premier were dropped back down the next year. When they (premier) want to get better, they look outside the club (my problem is there is no real development going on--in our age group anyways). Oh, and add to the cost, team camp. Now that we are not academy age, team camp is not residential. I glossed over the details because we can't afford to send our son, but it was something over $300 if paid early, over $500 after. For camp that you drop them off at the club fields in the a.m. and pick them up in the p.m.! I guess they have to pay the college coaches well--even though they are getting a free recruiting week.
I know you say that you glossed over the details so here is a little more information on the CESA team camp. It is difficult to find any camp for less than $500. It is also hard to keep up with the financial pace of soccer at the higher level(for some families).
Details:
Free MATCHFIT� Program from The Sport Source valued at $125
Top U.S. college, club and international staff coaches and counselors
Exposure to 14-20 college coaches from all divisions present at each camp
Air-conditioned hotel rooms
Free backpack
Nightly All-Star games
Hotel breakfast, catered lunch and dinner
24-hour hotel supervision
Detailed written evaluation
Agility training sessions
Coaches attending:
Elmar Bolowich: University of North Carolina Head Coach (NCAA Division 1)
Alan Dawson: Old Dominion University Head Coach (NCAA Division 1)
Darren Powell: Elon University Head Coach (NCAA Division 1)
Shawn Docking: Coastal Carolina University Head Coach (NCAA Division 1)
Pete Petersen: Clayton State University Head Coach (NCAA Division 2)
Peter Fuller: University of Mobile Head Coach (NAIA)
Paul McGinlay: Trinity University Head Coach (NCAA Division 3)
Gary Hammil: Wingate University Head Coach (NCAA Division 2)
Justin Terranova: Methodist University Head Coach (NCAA Division 3)
Kerem Daser: Georgia State University Head Coach (NCAA Division 1)
Adrian Bush: Tampa University Head Coach (NCAA Division 1)
Munga Eketebi: Florida International University Head Coach (NCAA Division 1)
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
Kdlsc, Missed experiences? What was your child doing last weekend while the CESA girls were in NY visiting ground zero?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 86
throw in
|
|
throw in
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 86 |
My wife and myself were not educated enough on the recruiting process (our fault). We've had 5 college recruiting trips this past year. Our daughter will be a senior in high school next year. 2 were because the college showed an interest. 3 were because my daughter wanted to attend those schools even if soccer wasn't part of the picture. If you have a potential college soccer player in the family you need to start the college recruiting process at u15."IF ITS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF YOUR FAMILY" Ask the college coach if there is any ramifications of skipping a club event to participate in a college team camp. You will here from all of them. " If your child wants to play at our school, they have to come to our college camp". Again,."IF ITS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF YOUR FAMILY"
We had and have money and scheduling conflicts on the club events, ODP and a college camp. The college coach at this D1 school told us. You can invest $350 in our college camp for a potential at receiving something $$$ from our institution, or you can send them on your club event. They said you need to make a decision "IS IT IN THE BEST INTEREST OF YOUR FAMILY".
There's a perception out their that clubs have an influence on colleges. We have found out in our college meetings that this is not the case. Colleges have a rather large pool to choose from "THE WORLD". They don't havee to rely on one club.
Where your club can help you is having the club coach make phone calls and send emails to the colleges that your daughter wants to attend. Our club coach has done a great job this year in doing this for us. As parents we should of asked him to do this 2 years ago.
The bottom line is parents need to make a decision for their child athlete base on "WHATS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF THEIR FAMILY" " THE WHOLE FAMILY".
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 541
Goal
|
|
Goal
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 541 |
Quote:
This might be why 1 club has lost their girls challenge team from last year except for the goalie. .
what age group?
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
Quote:
Quote:
This might be why 1 club has lost their girls challenge team from last year except for the goalie. .
what age group?
I will bet a steak dinner it's rising U-18's.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 86
throw in
|
|
throw in
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 86 |
Sweet on a more important note. Are you taking me to the Ohio State - U game? And start fishing. FAST. The oil is almost there.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 188
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 188 |
Sweet feet,
My son was studying for exams last weekend. In 8th grade, he was enrolled in 3 high school classes that will count towards his GPA. Once again, you mention 1)premier and 2) girls. He is not on premier at the u15 age group and one coach did tell me it was because he was too small. They said he had as good of skill as those selected, if not better, but of course the took the bigger players. Also, the boys at that age are not very nice and I'll leave it at that. One more thing. I played D1 soccer my freshman year and when the season was over I finally realized all I missed out on in the first months of college.
I know camps are expensive but the CESA team camp is NOT residential and honestly, the only way I want my son going to any of the schools whose coaches will be here (excpet UNC--but I hear there coach is a jerk) is IF he is getting a full ride. College soccer is not #1. Education is.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 188
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 188 |
a few more things. I am originally from NY and I already have plans to take my son over Christmas break as he's never been. While a trip with a bunch of friends would be great, I think a trip with dear old dad will be much more memorable in the long run.
I played competitive soccer when I was in middle school and high school. was able to take trips all around the country and to Mexico (and this was in the late 70's, early 80's). While it was great, I still missed out on many experiences with my non-soccer playing friends because I was always practicing and playing and my family could not afford to let me play and take any sort of other vacation.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
Quote:
Kdlsc,
Missed experiences? What was your child doing last weekend while the CESA girls were in NY visiting ground zero?
Kdlsc,
I never mentioned premier, did mention CESA girls.
I agree 100%, Education is number one.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 678 |
Quote:
Sweet on a more important note. Are you taking me to the Ohio State - U game? And start fishing. FAST. The oil is almost there.
No problem, we can discuss in LA. Looks like I will be fishing a little further offshore.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 132
goal kick
|
|
goal kick
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 132 |
I guess we didn't quite understand the process either. Our daughter has gone back and forth trying to decide whether she wanted to make the committment to playing soccer in college. This is a big decision when you are a sophmore or junior and without really knowing all that is involved, almost overwhelming at that age. For her, she had always pictured herself at a "bigger" college and since soccer had been such a big part of her life since she was 5 years old, she didn't think she wanted to commit all of her time in college also...she wanted to maybe join a sorority, go to football games and perhaps even play a different sport, through intramurals. She also did not feel like she was college material, at least not at those schools she was looking at. Now she has picked the school she wants to attend and figured she probably was good enough to play on the team, but perhaps it is too late to pursue it. I don't think that the coach or the club have the contacts to really help with this too much, unless it is on a more local level. She will be fine though if she doesn't play...I think she will miss it or perhaps even try to walk on ..but she is more excited about the college experience and moving forward in her life. As far as being on the Premier team...it has been a GREAT experience for her...the friendships and trips she has been on cannot be topped! It has been a financial burden at times but I think the structure has served her well.
Relax...breathe,then bust it!!
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 74
throw in
|
|
throw in
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 74 |
It seems most parents with their first child going through the recruiting process do not seem to understand the process. Uncle Buck points out a few good tips. Everyone seems to be saying start earlier and earlier but here are some dilemas. At U 15, a lot girls have no idea what college they want, they have barely started high school. Most good dedicated soccer players have dreams of playing for UNC and being the next Mia Hamm. You can write or try to visit those places and unless you are playing at the top level tournaments in the top bracket or ODP (from a different state - SC just doesn't have the reputation on the girls side yet), you likely wont get any looks. If your child likes a smaller school,those schools aren't looking until probably the U16 year and especially at U16 regionals or later. Your best bet is to be on a team that makes it to regionals or the top tournaments. If your child is interested locally then the club coaches probably can provide help in your child getting looked at but you probably should have been contacting them expressing interest in the sophomore year of high school. I think it is very difficult for a sophomore and even a first semester junior to decide what she wants in a college. Soccer is so much of their life but I don't think any of the kids are playing just to get a scholarship to college. For that fact,they would probably have better luck just spending that time studying and getting an academic scholarship - the percentages are much better. They have to have a love for the game and isn't it great when it works out they can keep playing and essentially get paid by getting some education costs offset. Problem is finding the right mix for the individual - soccer level, academic level, and financial level. It is different for every player and the recruiting time table is different for each grouping.So no its not all about the money. Its about providing the best you can to help your child develop to their fullest within the constraints of your family. Unfortunately, it is the exception for a girl of 14 to envision what she'll want or be as a player or student in college. So parents can say start looking at U15 but most times the child is not that interested to be visiting colleges or understand even what to look for when they haven't barely experienced high school. The recruiting process is just way too early! Personally I think they should not allow verbal offers until their sr. year when they can take official visits, have the maturity to understand what to look for, and likely more developed as a player growth and skill.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521 |
Talked to a coach from Virginia the other day..Two years are what they look at..And the players need to make contact with the coaches..Look at some of the rosters and where these players come from..So their plates are full with contacts and players wanting to play..If you don't make contact the coach will never show an interest..
This needs to be done by the players and not the parents..If you find yourself doing all the work..How bad does the child really want to play?
I am not saying to not help and support your child but the child has to show the interest more than the parents.
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521 |
Back to the topic..It seems more think it is about the money but the numbers are closer than I thought they would be..
Here's one..
Why carry eighteen or more on most rosters?
Eleven on the field..seven on the bench and three or four that could not dress out..I understand competition but this looks more like dollars than sense to me..
Would not those two or three that do not play as much be better served playing on another team?
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2
Coach
|
|
Coach
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 2,256 Likes: 2 |
Depends on what the customer wants, CHT...do you want to pay for your child to be a member of a winning team and put that on a resume, or do you want to pay for your child to get to play, develop, gain on-the-field experience, and hopefully have fun being on the field come out a better player at the end of the season?
Certainly not saying you can't have both--many players do! But if you find yourself in the either-or situation, there's a choice to be made.
I've got good news and bad news...
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521
hat-trick
|
|
hat-trick
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521 |
I don't think most accept positions on teams with the idea that their child is going to sit..That comes after the fact..I never said that the teams were winning teams so take that out of the equation..I just feel that carrying eighteen is a bit much for a coach to work in and out of games and scrimmages when you have some that sit more than others.I think the bottom three would be better served playing on another team and contributing..If a player is last to be picked and they will have to prove themselves for playing time..Why not share this with the player before committing to the team so the player can make an informed decision..
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 640
goal
|
|
goal
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 640 |
18 player roster seems a lot until you have a string of bad injuries.
Here I go again!
|
|
|
|
