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I just got an email that the mt p yth license course for $575, was cancelled due to lack of participation....gee, really? I coached little league in high school, never knew anyone with a lic., also assisted babe ruth coaching duties, again, what license? Coached middle school hoops in high school, nada license in sight. the toughest sport to coach, yth football, no one has a license. $occer has many trickle down costs that prohibit alot of the better athletes from participating...oops, but hey, guys are getting paid.  yth soccer remains the most clueless needlessly expensive yth sport....don't get it.....imho of course 
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Corner Kick
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While I agree with your overall opinion, to be fair this course is not for the individual coach 'per se' but for administrators, staff, etc. The National Youth License is designed to provide club directors of coaching, youth coaches, and soccer administrators with the knowledge to successfully structure soccer environments for children ages 4 - 12.
A Youth module license actually only costs $25 (and three hours) for the coach which is all you minimally need at this age to coach a rec team.
Still I do agree with your point in that many people get paid and it is an expensive sport. At least way more than it should be.
satus quod perago validus - start and finish strong
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"the toughest sport to coach, youth football, no one has a license". Enlighten me on all the strategy and technique that you teach to 12-year old interior linemen. You know, the run blocking tactics, the pass blocking tactics....all the time you spend on special teams with these "boys in the trenches". Sounds overwhelming. 
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Quote:
I just got an email that the mt p yth license course for $575, was cancelled due to lack of participation....gee, really? I coached little league in high school, never knew anyone with a lic., also assisted babe ruth coaching duties, again, what license? Coached middle school hoops in high school, nada license in sight.
the toughest sport to coach, yth football, no one has a license.
$occer has many trickle down costs that prohibit alot of the better athletes from participating...oops, but hey, guys are getting paid.
yth soccer remains the most clueless needlessly expensive yth sport....don't get it.....imho of course
Seriously? I am both speechless and dumbfounded at the seemingly "clueless" comments that you made in this post. Hopefully, Cainhoy Athletic's response helped to explain the licensing cost and difference with the types of licensing one can obtain. Do you honestly believe that licenses in soccer are a waste of time and money? Are you kidding me? Your comment about "guys getting paid" was sarastic and insulting to those quality coaches who spend countless hours, both on and off the pitch, developing their players, individually and collectively as a team. Should they not be compensated at all or do you feel they are all overpaid? Yes, soccer (especially select, premier, etc.) does have a lot of "trickle down costs"; that is a fact. Those parents who make the decision to have their child/children play at those levels are informed of the various costs involved. There are choices. Soccer is offered at many different levels/costs around our state, that parents and players can chose from. While scholarship money isn't available to EVERY player who applies, it IS still available to many players in various clubs around the state. Since you have taken the opportunity to list some of your complaints about the sport, how about proposing some solutions that you feel would work?
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I'll propose two solutions that would be useful and help keep cost down. Of course, I am can only refer to what one club does or in this case doesn't do.
1. Let the u18 who are in the first year of a new uniform cycle wear training jersys as opposed to having to buy expensive uniforms. I remember a few years ago, one team didn't get theirs until State Cup or there abouts. That is a waste of mney.
2. coaches should alternate volunteering for 2 hours a week so players can come out and just play (with just a little supervision for liability sake or to at least open up the fields, instead of charging $300 for 3 coached sessions a week. I know my son wanted to go but his choices were that or the team camp, couldn't afford to do both.
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Coach
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Wait...just to clarify...did you mean $300 per week per player?
I've got good news and bad news...
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Quote:
I just got an email that the mt p yth license course for $575, was cancelled due to lack of participation....gee, really? I coached little league in high school, never knew anyone with a lic., also assisted babe ruth coaching duties, again, what license? Coached middle school hoops in high school, nada license in sight.
the toughest sport to coach, yth football, no one has a license.
$occer has many trickle down costs that prohibit alot of the better athletes from participating...oops, but hey, guys are getting paid.
yth soccer remains the most clueless needlessly expensive yth sport....don't get it.....imho of course
Are you just realizing this notion, um, fact? It's why soccer is what it is today in the United States compared to the rest of the world. The paradigm is reversed here. I'm sure Tom Landry, Chuck Noll, and Don Shula of the National Football League and Bobby Cox, Tony LaRussa, Lou Piniella, and Joe Torre in Major League Baseball all have their respective "licenses"! Just another way that American soccer has been taken over by the almighty dollar and the reason that these licenses aren't worth the paper they are printed on!
When the seagulls follow the trawler, it's because they think sardines will be thrown into the sea.
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Soccer organizations and soccer clubs base their strategy on:
"THERE'S A SUCKER BORN EVERY MINUTE"
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Coach,
Sorry for the confusion. $300 for 12 sessions (I think), not per week.
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Licenses are over valued in youth soccer, but they do serve a purpose. I've done the NSCAA State and Advanced Regional I believe....and I have found them to be quite useful in helping structure and organize practices.
Kind of like a teacher learning how to do a lesson plan. Being able to construct a great lesson plan doesn't make a great teacher. But it takes someone with teaching chops and gives them the tools to best use their gifts.
I think the problem is less about licensing....and more of good old fashioned supply and demand.
In the American Big 3....if you are a player, you will get found. May not be ACC-SEC.....but a gifted football/basketball/baseball player will land on their feet.
Soccer......the roadmap is a lot fuzzier and the recruiting network far more subtle. Parents (and kids) rely more on "experts" to tell them how to navigate the process and the experts tend to be the same folks who are knee deep in the status quo. Reliance on things like regional or national teams/pools.......they don't exist in football or baseball and are a lot less significant in basketball (as opposed to soccer).
A good friend of mine told me that the best thing I could do for my child in soccer is to help them become a good player. The rest will come....or not.
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What's the total annual costs (uniforms, training fees, league fees, tournament fees, mandatory club camps, hotels, gas, airfare, ground transportation, meals, misc expenses) of a CESA Premier player in the girls u16, u17, u18 age groups?
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Sandman,
I am sorry that some club has wronged you in some way.
SCYSA used to not have a requirement to take the youth license. This requirement came into being about 6 years ago because of a lot issues in the Rec program. Parents where wanting to coach their kids but had no clue how to do it. So USYSA came up with the youth module and asked all states to require licenses for their coaches. I have done the course and it is well worth the $25 and 3 hours of time. I think it is a good requirement for parents that want to coach. And the module you are complaining about, is taken by parents that do not receive a DIME from coaching. And coaches that are paid usually have some type of higher license anyways and never spend a day in the youth module...
If you are mad because you have to take it then get over it and do it. You may accidentally learn something from it...
Here I go again!
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nope. i haven't been wronged & i just have an E license which i'm sure is laughable to some here.
& i wasn't making a statement of all the fine soccer coaches/programs around the state. i am wondering when & how did money take over this sport? we've all heard the many complaints from other parents regarding the continued escalation of costs.
there also seems to be alot of hispanics/blacks missing from the sport which i guess is related to the many cost requirements.
volleyball is quickly headed that way also.
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Quote:
Coach,
Sorry for the confusion. $300 for 12 sessions (I think), not per week.
Ah...whew. Still not cheap, but not crazy-talk. 
Look around...you will probably find a number of people who are willing to open up a field and give the young people a chance to get some kicks in as opposed to formal training sessions.
Remember, folks...if the theory holds that soccer in the US is being run as a moneymaking business, then it's ultimately the customers, not the clubs, who determine the prices. No successful business charges more than a sufficient number of customers are willing to pay for their product. As long as enough people believe that they "have" to have a certain brand of any product regardless of cost, the cost of that brand will always stay high.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Coach Chass you are exactly right... the costs are driven by demand. Demand for the extra training, the better coach, the name of the club, etc. IMHO the cost of soccer is not much different than travel baseball, softball, competitive cheering, dance etc. For example, we have a local pitching hitting group, called coach Dave's I am sure they do it for free, or for very little. I wonder how much D1 training cost? I know because we checked, it is not cheap, by any stretch of the imagination.
Soccer is not the only upside down sport in the great old USA.
Speaking of upside down, parents holding boys out of 8th grade so they can get a year older before they go to high school... happens all the time in American Football... now that is upside down, and all screwed up to me. Really, IMHO it is cheating. But hey, do what floats your boat. Sorry for changing the subject...
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Sorry Zen, My kids have played travel Premier soccer, SCJGA golf, travel volleyball,travel baseball, and high school football and wrestling. And have paid fees in all of those sports, and soccer by far,(REAL FAR) is the most expensive out of all of them. I had 2 kids playing high school football, scjga golf and travel volleyball and those combined did not cost me what soccer cost us in the same time period. You're correct though in saying soccer clubs are going to charge what the market bears. That's why I said soccer clubs base their business plan on "THERE'S A SUCKER BORN EVERY MINUTE". I was one of them. Youth soccer clubs truly has to be one of the biggest scams in all american youth sports.
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i don't agree with the demand driven argument, i think most parents would be more than happy if everyone scaled it back a bit, time & money.
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That's just it...it's not about what everyone is HAPPY investing...it's about what people are WILLING to invest if they believe that's the package deal their kids need. Almost every retailer could cut back on prices and still make a profit...but as long as people line up to buy at current prices, why would they? Restaurants could serve smaller portions at lower prices and still have people leaving full, without the doggie bags...but if people believe the huge portions are the way to go and keep buying them...why would they?
I've got good news and bad news...
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i think its a peer pressure driven model & parents (these days) are an easy sell. overindulgement is the key to the soccer sell. this model would be laughed out of the park by parents of the 70's. who is right or wrong?..thats up to you. i do wonder if the current model would change if the program/coaches could hear what the other side of the pitch is muttering about...probably not is my guess....again just my observations over 10yrs & humble opinion for what its worth. btw, my soccer star & i are very happy with our chosen course....but what do i know?  you said "need" was the funniest part 
Last edited by sandman; 07/28/10 01:12 AM.
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Parents could hold all of the power in Club Soccer if they wanted to. I wish we would of organized a team parent group when we started all of this Premier Soccer years ago. Power is in numbers and a big Soccer Club hates that. We had situations on our premier team over the years if a parent spoke out about excessive travel, expenses, lack of confidence in a coach they were summoned to the Club office for a one on one with a director because it was detrimental to the team. I can't remember any of the concerns the parents brought up being detrimental, just opinions and looking out for their child and hard earned money. The Club just wanted us to cut the check and stay out of the way. If I was to give any good advice to parents just starting out in travel soccer it would be organizing a parent group. Don't tell the club, or you'll be getting a phone call.
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A question ...
What if we were to 'professionalize' football, basketball, & baseball? Would these sports be better for it?
I suspect that if the above was in place, soccer as we know it would pale in comparison ....
I guess soccer coaches are just that much smarter???
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I find myself oddly mixed with regard to this post. Certainly as a coach (licensed), parent (3 players), and administrator in club soccer I consider myself in a good position to look at this issue from many angles (both sidelines).
Any chance we can we stop calling soccer coaches and administrators professional and just in some cases paid (like most of us at work). When I think of a professional I think not only of money, but also of advanced certification, years of experience and qualifications that set experts in specialized fields apart. Think lawyers (JD, bar exam), doctors (MD, medical degree), Engineers (PE), Accountants (CPA), etc. Not sure a coaching license; Rec Module (3 hrs), E (3 days), D (6 days), or even A means quite the same thing.
However saying that I am the first to recognize the value and help a top coach can and will provide to your child in teaching how to play soccer. Now whether that coach has a piece of paper to say he is a top coach is less material to me as a parent than the fact that he/she knows their stuff which should be readily apparent to any club administrator or DOC within minutes of starting a session. Many rec level coaches are as good as many in club soccer. Without embarassing some of those in the lowcountry just look at some of the names associated with MPSC rec teams in LSYSA. These guys (like ours) choose to coach because they have kids in the game, and love it. Not for money or fame and their results speak for themselves (many of these kids will go on to classic and challenge). Also before anyone throws out the parent coach insult again, please consider many of our region's 'elite' coaches are also parents. You can get good parent coaches and bad parent coaches. You can get good licensed coaches and bad licensed coaches. You get the point. I generally feel that parent coaches have more skin in the game when it comes to looking after the welfare of the kids and working extra hours to get a point across without looking at the watch.
I actually provided a negative feeling to SCYSA in regard to the license requirement, but not because it is a bad thing to get certified, but because it might prove an obstacle to a good rec or parent coach joining club ranks and helping kids learn the game at lower cost. Again any self respecting club or staff should be able to manage their coaching staff and if they allow 'bad' coaches (parent or uncertified), more fool them and parents will see this very quickly and leave. Administrators have a responsibility to their membership to provide quality training, don't need rules to tell us this. I do agree with Big Daddy with comments that coaching classes (leading to cert) do help improve your planning and execution skills. I would go further and say that in all my courses, it is working with quality instructors that adds real value. Just as serving as assistant coach to a top rated coach helps hone your skills.
Not sure why I went here but responding to a couple of license comments. Sorry but this thread has moved in several directions and just took the opportunity to vent.
I agree with sandman that peer pressure plays a big role in keeping costs high, as does elaborate marketing. I grew up in the 70's with hand me down cleats and is probably why I find the $$ model so abhorrent despite some of its advantages for those that can afford it.
satus quod perago validus - start and finish strong
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Cainhoy & Big Daddy,
Very good posts. There is a difference between peer pressure and somebody holding a gun to your head. Parents need to make their own educated choices based on their child's current "soccer wants & needs". Decide on your level of commitment (time & money) depending on your player's interest, ability and level of commitment. There are different price points for various options available.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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I've been following this thread with interest and, on occasion, confusion. My "take" on it all: First, from whence I come - my son has played Rec, Classic, Challenge, Premier League, SC ODP, Region III ODP, and USSF Development Academy. I'm currently the President of SCUFC Development Academy. The cost to participate has been greater with each step "up the ladder." However, the difference between Rec/Classic/Challenge is marginal. There is very little (if any) travel involved at those levels and what travel does occur is for tournaments that are nearly always within the immediate area (SC, GA, NC). Otherwise, the fixed costs are similar: club fees in the $400-600 range, a "team fee" in the $200-400 range, and uniforms in the $150-300 range (usually biannually). That seems quite reasonable to me.
When one gets into the Premier League and ODP, the costs increase more than marginally, due almost entirely to travel expenses. One starts having weekend trips for league games and the tournament expenses are greater due to further travel and higher entrance fees for Disney, Score at Shore, Jefferson Cup, etc. ODP can involve week-long camp, weekend sub-regionals, multiple training sessions... that costs additional money. If one's team qualifies for Regionals, that's another 5-7 day travel expense. The Development Academy is an entirely different kettle of fish, involving multiple weekend trips for league games and a minimum of two 4-5 night Showcase trips, usually to Florida and somewhere further than that. While I can't speak for other DA clubs, I can say that our coaching and administrative costs are, per player, on par with a Premier League team. Travel costs are the big difference.
So, what does it all mean? It means, in my view, that one can have an emminently satisfying youth soccer experience without spending a lot of money. But, and it's a big "but," if one wants to, and is good enough to, play the highest levels of the sport, one has to pay to go where the competition is. It would be nice if one could stay in SC and play against the best players in the region and country, but that isn't how things work.
I don't know who it is that some of you seem to think is making a bunch of money off of youth soccer, but it isn't anyone I know. Of the thousands of dollars we've spent over the years, I'd guess that 75-80% of it has been for travel. If you have a suggestion for persuading the teams from Texas, Florida, Illinois, Washington, Pennsylvania... to always come here to play, I'm sure those coming up behind us would be most grateful!
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Imagine. Believe. Achieve.
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I have always found it strange that everyone feels that getting kids to play "national" level is so important. I played D1 baseball. To get there I had a great HS manager, a father who practiced with me(don't see enough of that these days) and I played travel ball in my region of the state. Two times in all of the years I played did I go out of state to play and that was when we were two games away from the little league world series. Once in a while it is a good idea to gather for a regional/national tourney, but consistant travel is in my opinion is excessive. For people involved in this you should be happy the soccer is not considered to be revenue generating in college or you would end up with the mess that AAU basketball has become. I am all for developement, I believe in competition, but you have allow the kids to enjoy their youth.
As for the coaching certifications I am not sure this is the best answer. There are plenty of coaches who could get certified and not be good at coaching(this could happen with any sport) At the end of the day a coach in any sport that cares will endlessly research and find ways to get better so he can improve his players, no matter what certification he has. We need to indentify those people and get them involved.
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Chase, you make valid points but speaking from a perspective of having lived the experience of reinforcing what coaches have taught my son over the years (as most other parents I know have also done) . . . I have to say the time we spend together as father and son is more valuable than any costs associated with the game.
He and his teammates over the years have embraced and enjoyed the experiences of high level competition, travel and the comradery as a major part of their youth. Events near and far have been attended by friends, associates and relatives. The game has been one of the joys of our immediate and extended family over the years.
I'm sure you'll agree from competing as you did, such experiences are rare in life and you have to work hard to be a part of them. In our view, that means you make choices. Choices more often than not have a price tag one way or the other.
We're going into our final year and there are no regrets. We are blessed to have been associated with the people whom we have met along the way.
Imagine. Believe. Achieve.
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Chase, you've got it right. There is no need for youth to play youth soccer on a national level. The big 3 sports don't travel this much. It's not just a CESA who has this travel thing all screwed up, it's every big youth club in the country. You can play at the highest level possible playing regionally in the southeast in R3 premier league. One of the players who played ECNL in Seattle last week said their first 2 games were teams they had already played in our area, one of them several times. (it was CASL from Raleigh). They also played a team in ECNL in TEXAS final four showcase that was from their R3 premier league. (Charlotte)How many CESA kids are getting recruited because of traveling to these events west of the Mississipi (NONE). How many CESA players are playing college soccer west of the Mississippi (Not sure, but probably none). You're looking at between $3000 & $4000 a year to play at the highest level in a club.
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Quote:
Chase, you make valid points but speaking from a perspective of having lived the experience of reinforcing what coaches have taught my son over the years (as most other parents I know have also done) . . . I have to say the time we spend together as father and son is more valuable than any costs associated with the game.
He and his teammates over the years have embraced and enjoyed the experiences of high level competition, travel and the comradery as a major part of their youth. Events near and far have been attended by friends, associates and relatives. The game has been one of the joys of our immediate and extended family over the years.
I'm sure you'll agree from competing as you did, such experiences are rare in life and you have to work hard to be a part of them. In our view, that means you make choices. Choices more often than not have a price tag one way or the other.
We're going into our final year and there are no regrets. We are blessed to have been associated with the people whom we have met along the way.
Agreed and very well said!!!
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Certain aspects of youth soccer have become elitiest. Look around at the travel select squads and next time you are on the road at a tournament look for a non-upper middle class team> Or a team where the kids are not shuttled back to the hotel in Lexus SUV's and BMW's.
There is enough blame to go around here both on the parents side(for funding the insanity) and coaches for insisitng that their teams have to travel. If the clubs want to attract the top talent, and the coach who wants to prove he is better than everyone else, the answer has been to travel. The logic being the team that travels the furthest and the most is the best. And thus can attract the talent to fufill the coaches desire of becoming "the best".
It won't change until the enablers(parents) stop paying and demand something different.
Gbdawgs.....from experience I think your $3-$4K a year is low. The CESA girls team has been to Seattle and Texas this year, adding up some u10-u12 Academy fees that are web published you'd be at about $4,500. $800 Reg and Coaches fees, $150 uniform, $400 team expenses, 6 travel tournamnets at $500 a weekend(hotel 2 nights, gas, food)and $150 summer training. That is for U-10-12 Academy.
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"I have to say the time we spend together as father and son is more valuable than any costs associated with the game.
He and his teammates over the years have embraced and enjoyed the experiences of high level competition, travel and the comradery as a major part of their youth. Events near and far have been attended by friends, associates and relatives. The game has been one of the joys of our immediate and extended family over the years."
I wish the above was true for our team, but is totally the opposite.
The girls team that attended Seattle for the ECNL event were accompanied by 2 chaperones and a coach. So much for spending quality time with our children. A majority of the families on our team had to car pool to R3 premier events and ECNL, mainly because a majority of the families couldn't afford it. If the parents were required to attend these events their would not be a team.
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gbdawgs:
When it came time to get my daughter involved in sports we started looking at options that were available in our area (FL). Since my wife lived in Palm Beach at the time Polo was something she wanted to inquire about. After stopping by at the local Polo grounds and gathering the info she came home and showed me the figures. I decided that moment Polo was something that we simply couldn't afford.
Just to get started, so you can play in the lowest level tournament(see, it's just like soccer) you will need the following:
4-8 Polo Ponies(not polo horses) @ $15,000-$30,000 each
1-Pick-up truck $15,000-$45,000
1-Horse trailer $10,000-$50,000
Club fees $8,000.00 year
USPA dues $250.00
Saddle $3,000.00 X 4-8 depending on number of ponies
Boots $500.00
Helmet $300.00
Mallets $500.00
Shoeing $150.00 per ponie per month
Vet $1,000.00 per year per ponie
Stabling $1,200.00 per ponie per month
So from a low of about $200,000 a year to a cool half mill you can get your kid playing competitive Polo.
How dare CESA charge $3,500.00 to play Competitive soccer for a year.
My point is tongue in cheek, no one is putting a gun to your head to play competitive soccer nor is it a birth right for everyone to be able to afford to play a sport whatever it is.
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which brings us all back to the original post of a yth soccer lic for the ridiculous price of $575...no matter who its for. as a professional, in my real job, i do annual cpe for less than that. yth soccer is still chugging along like its the high flying days of 2005. imagine the volume of kids that might get involved if it was somehow more of a grass roots less expensive endeaver & the willing parent coach wasn't squeezed out or frowned upon. probably wouldn't have to travel as far for tough competition...again no offense to the great programs/coaches around the state. 
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Manchester I understand your point, but the two summers we went to Tenn and Michigan. Yes it was fun, I am able to look back at is as a great time in my life, but with that said when my best friend turned 16 and a got a car I was home when he showed up for us to enjoy our first taste of freedom. Or hanging out on the summer nights after I was done with my crappy job trying to pick up girls with my friends. I think when these kids get involved in national travel they may enjoy it but they are still missing out on events that you and I did not and while they may seem trivial in nature they are a part of growing up. The kids I coach are all friends of my son and the parents have all grown close over the past two years. We will go to some out of town tourneys this year for the first time and while I hope we play well I also hope that everyone has alot of fun with it. Lets face it, of all the kids playing youth sports, less than 15% will play in college and less than 1% will play pro. So everyone should keep that in mind. So I can live with being a coach of team that plays locally and once a year or so we'll travel and we'll let the kids be kids and just enjoy the moment and let them worry about the bigger picture when they join the real world.
And I also agree with the original post. Getting certified should not be an arm and a leg. Let's identify the people who want to coach let's get them trained up, let's share ideas with one another and then we'll be be doing the kids and the parents a real service
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So I looked up that National Youth License and it has nothing to do with what is required to coach in South Carolina. The NYL is more of a psychological/developmental license (it appears) for training young kids age 6-12 and a sort of "conference" supplement to a license a coach already has. A lot of feedback says it's specifically great for DOCs and people looking to start clubs. And you already have to have a "D" license to even take the course. It is NOT required for coaching.
If you want to coach in SC, depending on the level, you have to have a Youth Module, "E" or "D" License.
Youth Module - coaching through U12
$25 for 3 hours of training
"E" License - all rec and classic through U13
$60 for 3 days of training
"D" License - all youth soccer at any level, though "C" is preferred for U14+ classic
$125 for 6 days of training
A lot of times, clubs will lower or pay for the cost to get their coaches licensed if they hold the actual course. I think I paid a low amount for my "D" License with MPSC years ago compared to the out of town coaches who came in for it.
At any rate, getting indignant over the YSL being $525 is a little unnecessary as it's not required or needed to coach...and it's not even directed at the part-time volunteer coach.
As for the cost argument...when I played, the major cost was travel expenses. The solution there is easy: don't let your kid play on a travel team. I loved traveling for soccer and I got a lot out of it, especially the trip we took to Oslo, Norway. Staying in South Carolina gave us MAYBE two competitive games a season, but traveling to tournaments gave us better competition and, when it was started, Premier League gave us consistent, good competition. I didn't travel to get noticed by Coach X at RandomWesternUniversity, I traveled to play good, hard soccer in cool places. Did I miss out on hanging out at home and getting into stupid teenager stuff? Probably. Do I ever, for one moment, regret the travel and the games? Heck no. Did it hurt me to travel and play Premier League instead of stay home and socialize? I'm about to turn 24, I'm in my last year of medical school, and I have a great group of friends and classmates that I spend plenty of time with and I still play soccer in adult leagues. Suffice it to say, I don't think it hurt me much.
There are a lot of reasons to not play travel league soccer, but saying it's because YOU think your kid will regret not being home shouldn't be one of them. Who's to say they won't regret NOT doing it? Let the player decide whether or not that's important to them.
SC is so small as a soccer community, you have to travel out of state to get consistently good competition without playing the same teams all the time. But if you don't want to pay to travel, then don't. Vote with your feet.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; [it] is also what it takes to sit down and listen.
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the, just get over it defense, got it. i wonder why there is such a lack of minorities in this sport. i wonder if the soccer community would grow if it was somehow made more inclusive.
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The answer is time and money
Neither the money to play or the parent/parents having the time(away from work) to support the time commitment to get the child to training or matches.
Of course the community would grow, the demographics may not support the prices. And that is a whole other topic.
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Look, I am the absolute last person to say soccer is perfect. There's a lot wrong with the system and the way things are run, but complaining that travel is stupid and no one gets anything out of it aren't effective ways to find a solution.
My parents practically broke the bank to let me play and I appreciate every penny they spent on me. I've paid my way through college AND medical school and I'm putting money in the bank to save for my little sister's education, so I'm not an upper middle class elitest by any means.
It's hard to say without looking at the exact allocations, but club costs and coaching fees could probably be pared down and there should definitely be a lot of use of scholarships. But travel costs, aren't something you can really pare down without eliminating the travel or having extra income to cover scholarships for all travel. That doesn't mean that travel is stupid or useless or not productive, because it can be wonderful and it can be awful.
Those of you that know me on here know I don't tend to make blanket statements and I tend to dislike them in general. Soccer is expensive and we should work hard to lower the costs, but it is unnecessary to be making blanket statements that x or y is stupid or pointless.
Courage is what it takes to stand up and speak; [it] is also what it takes to sit down and listen.
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Look, I am the absolute last person to say soccer is perfect. There's a lot wrong with the system and the way things are run, but complaining that travel is stupid and no one gets anything out of it aren't effective ways to find a solution.
...blanket statement alert.
& thanks for putting words in my mouth.
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This is a doozey and getting better.
I'm a logical guy so lets see if we can boil this down and confirm the original assertion "Youth $occer is an eliti$t $port"
Let's discount the very top programs USSF Development Academy, CESA premier, etc. Lets put these aside and focus on the remaining 99.92% of playing youth. I think everyone will accept that travel at this highest level is the biggest cost and it is a choice (as long as parents/players are aware going into the program and I am assuming they are). So let's not focus there, lets step back, breath, and look at a much bigger picture.
According to HapppyDaddy's mid range costs for Rec/Classic/Challenge we can use $930 per year. Is that reasonable or does it create a culture of elitism as asserted initially?
Point 1: To find $930 annually in your pocket, in SC you would need to earn approx $1,600 in gross salary.
Point 2: According to US Bereau of Labor Statistics, average salary in SC is $37,040 (average teacher salary in SC $42,207 - teachersalaryinfo.com)
Point 3: The amount of discretionary income (net pay - food - bills - essentials) for households earning $50,000 is $2,075
Point 4: Over 75% of discretionary dollars in US is held by those earning over $100,000
Point 5: Elite (elitist) describes a group of people who are members of the uppermost class of society and wealth often contributes to that class determination.
Deduction Youth Soccer = Elite Sport
Regardless of coaching license distraction, sandman you are on to something
What do we (clubs, parents, administrators, coaches, everyone) do about it?
Reminds me of golf growing up. English golf clubs would charge so much that only the richest could afford it and made sure of that with absurd rules about membership, types of golf shoes and polo shirts.
We had to hack our way round a field full of cows just to enjoy the sport we wanted to play but couldn't afford and were intentionally kept out. Shouldn't be like this.
satus quod perago validus - start and finish strong
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Chase, no question such times are valuable but they can also pretty quickly turn into bordam for the teenage mind, no matter how talented he or she may or may not be.
I'm sure we can agree on the point that young people should have 'dreams'. 99% of the time dreams likely revolve around sports, music or some form of artistic expression such as dance. I believe the pursuit of dreams teach our kids how to earn and appreciate success while also teaching them how to grow from defeat . . . ultimately impacting all aspects of their lives. Can you imagine going through life without dreams?
Enjoying summer nights, fishing, driving around with your pals should be the precious moments, not the Majority of the moments. Committing oneself to achieve a better attitude, better performance or better result under the guidance of a quality coach through disciplined training and exercise will only build a better person.
The US is a very large piece of real estate and that means you often travel to climb the next mountain . . . to test yourself against the unknown. Have I been disappointed by poor attendance of collegiate coaches during events which cost serious dollars to get to on occasion? Absolutely. Having said that, the development has always been worth the investment. The cost of participating in the 'dream' is real and it varies depending on desire and commitment. The process should never be dumbed down because only a small percentage will achieve collegiate or professional status. There are different levels of achievement, just as there are different levels of expense associated with achievement.
The 'dream' provides the motivation to support the desire to repeatedly meet the commitment required to achieve the 'dream'. At the end of the day, it's all about working to reach for the next level.
On the issue of dollars, let's say you spend $5,000 per year on soccer. Ask yourself if your kid is worth 13.69 per day of your hard earned money. Then ask yourself how much money you'd be spending each day to support the local mall, restaurants, movie theatres (gotta see each movie twice when you have time on your hands) or towards that extra tank of gas he or she is going to burn up driving around. Any comparable 'dreams' be pursued spending the $5,000 that way?
Sure, $5,000 per year sounds expensive when you look at it as a line item, but what are 'dreams' really worth? Kind of hard for me to look at that one as a line item expense.
Imagine. Believe. Achieve.
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1. Chase, I know exactly what you mean. When I stopped playing halfway through my Freshman year in college, I couldn't believe all the things I missed out on those first few months.
2. I understand travel is going to cost. Sure a player can play at a lower level but if they are good enough why should they have to settle. A way to lower expenses would be to:
A. Not charge $300 for summer training
B. Not charge $350 for team camp that is coached by the clubs coaches (and someone please tell me why the CESA girls u15-18 only had to pay $100)
C. Lower the pay of the coaches. Many people are taking paycuts in this economy and in the 90's, I actually coached Club and High School for free (won a state cahmpionship at u17G's)
Sure, it's demand driven, but I see way to many people involved that have more money than they obviously know what to do with. In this situation, your more apt to see even more families that struggle give it up before you see the really wealthy stop paying.
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I will add, more parents need to do what I do and when traveling, get my own hotel at a price I can more afford. Too bad if the coach wants the team at the same place, if I can get a better deal, I'm doing it. As a matter of fact, I'm looking for a KOA. The cabins are usually $50 dollars and have heat and air and if the weather is nice, I'm bringing the tent.
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Quote:
I will add, more parents need to do what I do and when traveling, get my own hotel at a price I can more afford. Too bad if the coach wants the team at the same place, if I can get a better deal, I'm doing it. As a matter of fact, I'm looking for a KOA. The cabins are usually $50 dollars and have heat and air and if the weather is nice, I'm bringing the tent.
Great idea. You make choices because you want to see the look on your son/daughter face during those moments of achievement. It's all about finding a way to support the dream.
Imagine. Believe. Achieve.
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I think you pick your poison. My daughters were allstar cheerleaders where we paid $24.00/day to watch a 2 minute routine in different cities across the Southeast. I never did it hoping they would one day become Dallas Cowboy Cheerleaders. I would love to think it only cost me $5,000(uniforms, choreographers, makeup and private lessons).
I am discouraged that money prevents kids from playing soccer at any level. I wish that any kid that wanted to participate on the travel, ODP and academy teams could have the opportunity. In basketball Nike and Adidas foot the bill for the best players. If you look at the NCAA investigations taking place, football players expect to get paid early on. I think alot of times you are left with the people that can afford to be on these teams not the most talented. I also think money affects the diversity of soccer because most minorities don't understand paying to play when basketball and football are free.
Some of my best times have been alone with my son or with his friends traveling to and from soccer games/tournaments. As he gets older I am constantly reminded it is time I will never get back. Those times are priceless.
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No minority child is "deprived" of the opportunity. If any kid shows promise (ability) and commitment, a club will find a way to fund it. The problem with the current system is that most minority children are not "exposed" to the opportunity.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Of course the system is broken. There is something fundamentally wrong with a youth soccer system in which an academy aged team in SC has to travel 75 miles or more on a regular basis to get a competitive game. Each of S.C.'s metropolitan areas is fielding a few u10-u12 teams that regularly travel regionally to play other teams at their level. Sure, there a good things about travel soccer -- family time, seeing new places, staying out of trouble, etc. -- but it doesn't mean that the system is ideal. We have this system because our schools and youth clubs (YMCAs) abdicated responsibility for training advanced players. Parents are faced with the choice between minimal rec training and the club soccer merrygoround which easily costs $2000 per year or more in training and travel.
Let's not pretend that the cost is not excluding players from the sport. Let's also be honest, that there are higher cost barriers to soccer than there are to basketball or football, sports which benefit from substantial sponsorship money. The club fees are expensive, and the travel costs even more. Sure, there are scholarships available, but how many families are simply scared off by the cost or time commitment? Are we trying to see how much sacrifice we can get out of parents, or are we trying to get as many kids involved in the sport at the highest level possible? Is it unreasonable for a young couple with a household income of around 60k to say "no" to paying $2,000 per year in training fees and travel costs for their budding young soccer player? If they do, will that kid have a realistic chance of cracking the club scene as a u14? Most probably not.
I don't have answers for all of these problems, except to swim against the tide and point to our school system as a possible solution to the problem. While our national federation seems to be trying to run away from the school system, our high schools and colleges have the infrastructure to support a true national model. They have fields, lights, coaches, etc. It seems that we should make the most of this infrastructure.
I'm not necessarily critical of club soccer. I've had great experiences with clubs and coaches. Club soccer has filled a vacuum in our country. But, without major sponsorships or public-private partnerships, I can't help but think that club soccer, as currently configured, has hit the ceiling when it comes to developing the sport.
Again, your ten year old should not have to travel out of town on a frequent basis to get a competitive game... but he/she does. It may be the best system we have now, but it is far from ideal.
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Chase, no question such times are valuable but they can also pretty quickly turn into bordam for the teenage mind, no matter how talented he or she may or may not be.
I'm sure we can agree on the point that young people should have 'dreams'. 99% of the time dreams likely revolve around sports, music or some form of artistic expression such as dance. I believe the pursuit of dreams teach our kids how to earn and appreciate success while also teaching them how to grow from defeat . . . ultimately impacting all aspects of their lives. Can you imagine going through life without dreams?
Enjoying summer nights, fishing, driving around with your pals should be the precious moments, not the Majority of the moments. Committing oneself to achieve a better attitude, better performance or better result under the guidance of a quality coach through disciplined training and exercise will only build a better person.
The US is a very large piece of real estate and that means you often travel to climb the next mountain . . . to test yourself against the unknown. Have I been disappointed by poor attendance of collegiate coaches during events which cost serious dollars to get to on occasion? Absolutely. Having said that, the development has always been worth the investment. The cost of participating in the 'dream' is real and it varies depending on desire and commitment. The process should never be dumbed down because only a small percentage will achieve collegiate or professional status. There are different levels of achievement, just as there are different levels of expense associated with achievement.
The 'dream' provides the motivation to support the desire to repeatedly meet the commitment required to achieve the 'dream'. At the end of the day, it's all about working to reach for the next level.
On the issue of dollars, let's say you spend $5,000 per year on soccer. Ask yourself if your kid is worth 13.69 per day of your hard earned money. Then ask yourself how much money you'd be spending each day to support the local mall, restaurants, movie theatres (gotta see each movie twice when you have time on your hands) or towards that extra tank of gas he or she is going to burn up driving around. Any comparable 'dreams' be pursued spending the $5,000 that way?
Sure, $5,000 per year sounds expensive when you look at it as a line item, but what are 'dreams' really worth? Kind of hard for me to look at that one as a line item expense.
theres been some great critical arguments presented here & this ain't one of them, not buying one word of this.
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Sandman, that's your right and it won't surprise me if there are more who agree with you. My focus is on the value of the dollars spent. Admittedly, I can't speak to the issue of coaching fees, but as a parent I know there are financial levels for all who want to be involved in the game with any club.
Imagine. Believe. Achieve.
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LeGrazie, the only thing soccer takes is a ball, a burning desire to develop a great touch and a willingness to learn from those who understand the game. A 10 year old could train with a dad who knew the game and a kick back until he was 13 and go knock the socks off of any player he came in contact with during U15 tryouts.
The problem is parents don't fully understand the game and they don't put in the time required if a kid is not playing club ball. Schools are never, and I repeat, never going to develop elite players. They play a role at the high school level, but shifting the task to what we would consider a Free source such as a school is not the answer. The answer is more purposeful touches on the ball at a younger age, plain and simple. That must come from a parent or a club and ideally from both.
If you don't want to travel, then dedicate yourself to learning the game and working with your son or daughter individually. Youtube offers players incredible teaching moments. It's all about how much you want it. People deserve to be paid for their knowledge and time. If it's not affordable, then focus on another way to get results.
Clubs are successful because that's where the recruiting is done. Understanding that one simple component will help you align your objectives with your ability to develop your son or daughter in the US Soccer environment.
As US Soccer becomes more successful in world wide competition you'll see sponsorship money come in from the major companies, but until then the investment must be made to attract the sponsors. That investment is demonstrating what is required to produce better players and a better style of Soccer. A desire be the best in the game by working with the ball, that's all. It's a simple game. Don't over complicate it.
Visit any elementary school these days during recess and I'll bet you there will be a group of kids playing Soccer. That's because of club influence. It's going on because there are kids on the playground who have soccer idols.
High schools are without a doubt feeders for Football. Basketball and Baseball are more closely related to Soccer at the club level, although we all know high schools play a more significant role for basketball recruiting than they do for baseball. Soccer scholarships on the other hand are born of the club system.
Understand the game is simple, the club system is vital and the school system offers great emotional and developmental benefits to compliment the club system and you are set.
When you are involved in the club system, you are going to pay $$$ to travel because the US is so large and top level competition is all over the country as are universities with soccer programs. Someone has to pay and it's you and me because it's our kids who are playing the game. At the top level, virtually every player is playing for an opportunity to play another four years.
At the lower levels, kids are playing to compete and have fun doing so. Some who work on their own will break out, many will not. That's ok because they all have there reasons for playing the game. Coaches who are trained to know how to coach are needed and are worth the fees they charge, period.
Imagine. Believe. Achieve.
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No minority child is "deprived" of the opportunity. If any kid shows promise (ability) and commitment, a club will find a way to fund it. The problem with the current system is that most minority children are not "exposed" to the opportunity.
Aha...so how do we get those kids into a position to show promise and commitment? Both of those attributes take a certain amount of time to demonstrate...how do we get more young people involved, committed, and with developed talent in a sport if you have to already have demonstrated involvement, talent, and commitment in order to get the support to play?
I've got good news and bad news...
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I don't see many kids showing up at u15 tryouts who have been training with dad instead of playing club soccer. But maybe you've pointed to an alternate approach.
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While I have some sympathy with some of the arguments/comments made here, particularly regarding the desirability of increasing minority participation in soccer, some of the views strike me as bizarre.
The notion that it is possible to experience top-flight competition without travelling is, I have to say, silly. In South Carolina in any given age-group, between U-14 and U-18, there are no more than 30 kids whom an objective observer might consider very good players in a national context - and that's being generous. The number that might be considered excellent would be less than half that.
I don't intend to reignite a debate on the relative merits of Academy v. USYS play. However, some comparison is necessary to to make my point. The difference in the quality of the training and level of competition between the Development Academy and the SCYS Challenge League is several orders of magnitude. In nearly every instance, the Academy teams are composed of the best 18-22 players in the state (or major metropolitan area). Consistently playing against the best players from Florida, Georgia, North Carolina, Virginia, Texas, Alabama, Washington, California, Illinois...has got to be more beneficial to the development of a player than playing against Challenge League teams. (There's nothing wrong with playing Challenge League, but the difference in the quality of soccer is vast).
In the question of cost, I am surprised at some of the numbers I've seen quoted here. This past season the cost to play for the SCUFC Academy team was $3,750. Included in that cost was: Club fee (which included all administrative and coaching costs); two uniforms; one warm-up; a minimum of three training sessions per week; trips to Florida (2) (one of which was a five day Showcase trip), Georgia, Alabama/Georgia, North Carolina (2), and Phoenix (five day Showcase trip); and a total of 30 games played. Parent travel was, of course, not included. While I grant you that $3,750 is real money, the return on the cost is pretty darned good I think.
Last edited by HappyDaddy; 07/29/10 02:44 PM.
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As for the alternative approach it's not. It's the old fashioned approach. There are alot of parents who feel it is someone else's job or refuse to take the time out to work with their kid at a sport. Almost every night my son and I go out in the back yard in our bare feet, pass the ball around and...........talk! Unfortunately it seems like a very lost art anymore, everyone wants to drop their kid at the field in one or two hours a week expect their kid to be the best kid in the league.
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Here is my concern with the whole issue. In the U.S. are we missing out on the Shon Carson's and how do we introduce them to soccer? For those who don't know about him Shon Carson is a incredibly gifted football, baseball - just overall athelete at Lake City High School. If you've ever seen him play in either sport you would soon realize he is without a doubt one of the best athelete's in the state of SC. He is currently receiving interest from numerous SEC schools in both sports. Now drop back and punt (pun intended) - What if Shon had been introduced to soccer at a very young age? To me that is what the U.S. is missing in order to compete even more in future on the World stage and rid ourselves of the "elitist sport" stigma. The million dollar question is how do we get the Shon Carson's of the U.S. involved? How do we get a lower/lower middle class kid from the Lake City's of the U.S. involved? Do people realize how much $3,750 would be to so many of these athelete's families? Don't hand me the scholarship's are available in club soccer - there are many other issue's these families face on a daily basis that go alot deeper than kids playing a high level of club soccer. These families are trying to simply survive (No - not what most of us call just surviving).
I've seen soccer played in this state from rec ball to both South Carolina United Academy teams to CESA 92 Premier. There are some really gifted players in the upper divisions. Most have played since they were 4 or 5 years old.
What could the Shon Carson's of the U.S. have been like had they been exposed to soccer at a young age? I know I'll ruffle some feathers by saying this but I have seen several kids on the upper level teams that in no form or fashion are the natural atheletes of a Shon Carson. What they do have is years of playing experience and in most cases really good coaching along the way. But athletically - they are no Shon Carson.
I realize it "is what it is" - With all that said, I'm not sure I would say soccer is an elitist sport as I suspect the majority of upper level players throughout the country come from middle/ upper middle class families. Simply put, most are not filthy rich. I will say it is much harder for the Shon Carson's of our state to make it happen at one of the upper levels than a upper middle class kid from Columbia, Charleston or Greenville. Unfortunatley, the same issues hold true in education - which in most cases is the key to everything in life.
PS - I do not know Shon Carson, his family, his friends or anybody from Lake City. I also do not know his families situation - they could be very well off for all I know. I simply used him as an example since he is an incredible athelete from a small SC town.
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Thats a good point 63, Imagine if athletes like Kobe, Lebron, D Wade, Adrian Peterson, Wes Welker, Tony Romo had been introduced to soccer at an early age. I don't think we would be little brother on the World Stage.
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good points about somehow getting minorities more involved to elevate this sport. & i agree, i've watched some of the most elite teams in the state & scratch my head over some nonathletes on the team, which, kudos to their many years of hard work & good coaching, but still, what if?
2010 soccer = 1950 basketball
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What if Shon Carson had been introduced to soccer at an early stage, rather than football or baseball? He'd probably be looking at earning about $40K per year playing in the MLS after a few years of college soccer, instead of the potential millions he would earn in MLB or the NFL after a successful SEC career. I think we are doing Shon a favor by keeping him away from soccer.
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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no big money in professional soccer to attract top level athletes in usa. football, bb, bb, where there is more big money opportunities and better structure to develop/excel at lower cost will get the attention of potential sport stars.
soccer is better suited for those more interested in going professional in something other than sports. and helps keep kids on a positive track and staying out of trouble/hanging with the wrong group.
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Quote:
no big money in professional soccer to attract top level athletes in usa. football, bb, bb, where there is more big money opportunities and better structure to develop/excel at lower cost will get the attention of potential sport stars.
soccer is better suited for those more interested in going professional in something other than sports. and helps keep kids on a positive track and staying out of trouble/hanging with the wrong group.
Very well said.
Imagine. Believe. Achieve.
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I don't see many kids showing up at u15 tryouts who have been training with dad instead of playing club soccer. But maybe you've pointed to an alternate approach.
You're not going see that happen to because 1) few parents have the time & 2) few parents know enough about the game to accomplish the task. But if they were able to meet these two requirements, the reality is it could be done.
The alternative is to pay very close attention to what coaches teach and reinforce those points through repetition with your son or daughter. Do that, and the player will develop. Don't expect two or three practices per week to get a kid a scholarship.
Spend your money wisely on the game and rinse and repeat. The investemnt will come back to you 10 fold.
Imagine. Believe. Achieve.
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letmeputit and Manchester are both spot on!!
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letme: so are you saying youth soccer is more for therapy, a babysitting service, drug prevention, what????? i've known a few youth soccer players (premier) that were mixed with the wrong group the whole time they played club. You can throw that theory out the door.
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Like many other activities, soccer can provide an OPPORTUNITY for young people to focus on a healthy activity in a positive and supportive environment. Also like any other opportunity, individual players can choose to focus on that, or turn their attention elsewhere. Over the years, I've seen a lot more young people positively influenced by youth sports than introduced to bad crowds and habits through them, and I certainly wouldn't throw out the theory based on "a few" players who may have gotten mixed with some bad influences.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Coach, you are spot on and that's one reason I'm such a proponent of club soccer. Young people need year-round guidance, structure, objectives, obligations, a sense of personal and team accomplishment, & 'dreams'..
They need to be tested. They even, dare I say it, need to FAIL so they can learn how to recover.
The earlier they become a part of such environments, the better.
Imagine. Believe. Achieve.
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i agree, yth sports keeps them busy & focused, which is really key after age 12. & if you notice, they tend to make friends & hang out with other athletes who don't have time for the regular teenage trouble.....this thread is all over the place
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Quote:
i agree, yth sports keeps them busy & focused, which is really key after age 12.
& if you notice, they tend to make friends & hang out with other athletes who don't have time for the regular teenage trouble.....this thread is all over the place
Sand, It might seem like the thread is all over the place, but in reality we're discussing the VALUE of money spent by those of us who either have cars with 215,000 soccer miles on them or are on our third vehicle in 10 years because of dedication to the game.
It's ALL a question of the VALUE one assigns the money being spent.
This thread domonstrates how VALUE is measured in many, many ways. How one participates is a personal choice and in every instance based on need, ability and desire.
Imagine. Believe. Achieve.
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Quote:
Coach, you are spot on and that's one reason I'm such a proponent of club soccer. Young people need year-round guidance, structure, objectives, obligations, a sense of personal and team accomplishment, & 'dreams'..
They need to be tested. They even. dare I say it, need to Fail so they can learn how to recover.
The earlier they become a part of such environments, the better.
Brilliantly stated.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Quote:
It's ALL a question of the VALUE you are getting for the money spent. This thread domonstrates how VALUE is measured in many, many ways. How one participates i's a personal choice and in every instance.
Fits right in with the theme, indeed.
I had a conversation a few days ago with the mother of one of my high school players who is also signed up this year for the Classic team that I coach. She's one of my hardest workers on the field and a great athlete, but she never found her way to the fall club side of things before. In talking to her mother, I found out that she was willing to put her entire summer-job paycheck into playing soccer this fall because her family can't just hand her the money. She's willing to do that because she loves the sport and she likes the person she is in that environment. Her mom is willing to support her all she can because, as she says, she doesn't have to worry about who she's with and what she's doing when she's playing soccer; she knows all that teenage energy is being spent on something positive!
To me, that's getting your money's worth for things that are important to both player and parent. That's just one example, and different players, of course, have different goals; as long as what you're getting is worth (to you) the dollars spent and the other sacrifices made, then I guess it's time and money well spent.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Boy, this topic went all over the place. And I apologize now but so will my response.
Minorities:
I can not speak for all ethic groups but I feel I have a good understanding of the Asian culture, at least in South Carolina. Asians place a higher degree of effort on academic success over athletic success. They want their children to be doctors, not soccer players. I am not sure when this will ever change or if Asians want it to change. And as a side note, Asians do not believe females should be playing sports at all. They believe it makes them to manly. My daughter is Asian American and has played soccer a long time. Her grandmother never came to a single game. We have a son 12 years later and the same grandmother is able to make about half of his 5 year old rec soccer games. My point is that you could give soccer away for free and that does not mean that minority cultures will flock to the sport.
Costs:
I saw in one post the REC/Classic/Challenge are the same at $930. All I can say is that they never had a child play any of those levels. REC is $65 at most per season, that is a far cry from $930. Classic and Challenge could be close to each other depending on the club and the mix of players.
BTW, try doing Karate as a sport. That is a VERY expensive sport with almost no chance of a financial reward from college.
Academy Travel:
That was not suppose to happen. SCYSA, given to them by USYSA, put out a template for clubs to use to create their academy pools, not teams. That template focused only on player development, which included NO travel outside of 30 miles, no tournaments, relaxation of the rules and training pools. There was suppose to be ZERO focus on wins/losses. I know CSC and NECSA, at the time, and I am pretty sure CESA followed that template. The PARENTS went absolutely ape crazy over it. They wanted travel, they wanted teams so that they can prove that Johnny is better than Bobby, they wanted strict enforcement of the rules, and for the love of Jesus and all that is good in the World they had to have wins and losses. So do not blame Soccer, the Clubs or the Coaches. The parents control the boards at this clubs and how the money is spent.
Final Thought:
I do think it is a elite sport right now but I truly believe talent will go up and money will start going down once my daughter's generation starts to have children and they start training at home because they know what they are doing. I played with my daughter a lot when she was growing up but I quickly became a liability in training because I never played a lick until she came home one day and wanted to play for the School Rec team. But her children will be a different story. They will learn from the ground up on the correct ways to do things. And then like all sports it will move from being an elite sport to a true backyard sport.
Here I go again!
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Chapindad,
Are you going to see the U17 girls South Korea National team play CESA tonight at Mesa? Maybe this will help change the attitude/interest of Asian girls and soccer. I think they are ranked #1 or close to it.
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Quote:
Costs:
I saw in one post the REC/Classic/Challenge are the same at $930. All I can say is that they never had a child play any of those levels. REC is $65 at most per season, that is a far cry from $930. Classic and Challenge could be close to each other depending on the club and the mix of players.
I think that $930 was sort of a median number; costs for Classic, especially, can vary widely from club to club even within a relatively small geographical area. Challenge and Classic are pretty close in actual club fees; the reason the gap widens significantly at the Challenge level is that Challenge teams typically participate in more (and more expensive) tournaments that involve more travel in order to play at a higher level of competition.
There are a lot of soccer options available in SC in many different price ranges...my advice would be for people to look around and see what's available rather than toss out the idea of playing based on a couple of dollar figures from one or two institutions.
I've got good news and bad news...
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chapindad: in regards to your minority post , i think your missing the point. i think were talking about people who cannot afford the sport of soccer at the youth level because of their class, not neccesarily their ethnic background. unlike the big three sports in the US of A, soccer is not affordable for the lower class, a strain on the middle class, and the upper class has no problem dishing out the money for their child to play at the highest club level. i've been part of the soccer scene for several years and have never seen our big club have clinics, build a soccer field or target youths in lower income areas. I think this is why the sport of soccer has peaked in this country because the best youth athletes are not given the opportunity to play soccer like the other big 3 sports. look at pro baseball, and now basketball those sports are loaded with minorities. I went to a Greenville Drive baseball game last week a majority of the starters were from the caribbean and south america, i doubt if a majority of those kids came from middle or upper class families. i think soccer got off on the wrong foot in this country, once the clubs saw that there was big money to be made they killed any opportunity to get the best athletes in the country. Even golf that was pretty much a country club sport has conformed to the needs of taking that game to low income areas, They have a very successful "1st Tee program that gives low income youths lessons and play for free. If you asked one of the big soccer club director to offer something like this they would run and hide.
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my big concern is, why should a player have to settle for playing at a level below his ability (which is what many posts have stated) just because of financial reasons. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't know if that happens in sports such as basketball
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Perhaps if a player proves his/her talent, potential and dedication playing at a lower and more economical level for a while, that might be the avenue through which he/she could attract the attention of a club and get some financial assistance to play at a higher level. Not so different from a student spending a year or two at a small two-year college and earning a scholarship to a major university.
I know a young lady who is playing on a Challenge team this year who worked her tail off at the Classic level to prove herself and earn the skill and recognition to get there...we'll miss her on our team this year but I'm very proud of her progress and accomplishment in moving up! Progressive steps can often get you where you want to go where trying to leap right in from the get-go can leave you hanging.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Coach, but it is conceivable that there are players out there that can't afford to play even Classic. I'm sure there are players that can't pay the tryout fee or even money for rec. Do the club coaches go around and watch pickup games and offer quality players a spot on their team. I would say no and for a variety of reasons. One being that maybe there aren't any pickup games to watch. I know there will be some cost but I tend to agree that it is a rich persons sport. Also, I don't think club scholarships actually offer very much. Seems like at CESA it covers the club fee and not travel or coaches fees (which are the biggest part of the equation.
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I also want to reiterate again that working hard and having skill does not always translate to getting an opportunity. The girls game is a totally different monster from the boys. From my observation (and from what a coach actually told me), the boys coaches will take a bigger, stronger, faster player. I know of one coach that I believe will be sorry once the season starts to find out that after 5-6 years of travel soccer by certain players, he is not the magician that other coaches could not be and that he will not be able to make these guys 1. better players 2. harder working players and 3. more dedicated players.
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You're right; I was just responding to the question of someone having to play "at a lower level" due to economics; if that's the issue, then there is at least a possible path available to reach the higher levels with performance and effort. You're right, though, that the issue for many is being able to get in at the entry level at all. I know a lot of young people who love soccer and would enjoy the chance to play and hone their skills outside of high school season, but the financial aspect of playing club even at the Classic level is a consideration that prevents many of them from joining in.
There are some organizations who do try to provide opportunities for players at the lowest cost practical; I know several that offer club/coaching fees of well under half of the $930 average quoted above for U15-U18. I know outfits like Cainhoy are trying to reach as many younger players as possible at the lowest cost to get them involved in the sport; some, (GCU, for example, I believe) have found sponsors to provide uniforms to the club at no cost to the players. In some, the club can offer scholarships taken out of the club portion; in others, coaches have the option to waive portions or all of the coaching fee for those needing and deserving the assistance.
Still, it does cost a certain amount of money to put a club on the field no matter what; league fees, performance bonds, insurance, referee fees, administrative costs, transportation, uniforms, game and practice equipment--all of these things have to come out of SOMEBODY'S budget. It takes a minimum of $850 ($500 bond fee, $350 registration fee) just to REGISTER a Classic team with SCYSA. For a Challenge team, it's $1050 ($500 bond, $550 registration). It also takes a reliable administrative structure of people who can handle the books, the money, the registration process, the insurance, communication and compliance with SCYSA...all of this has to happen before the first coach rolls out the first ball of the season.
It seems that sponsorships are the only way to take the pressure off of players and parents. Several people have mentioned the possibility of higher-level clubs that are making a good profit sponsoring "farm teams" to get young athletes involved, develop them, and identify the top players to move up through the system. At any rate, while the individual clubs and coaches can do things to cut the costs to players and parents as much as possible, it's going to take a broader system in place to bring quality soccer at a price EVERYONE can afford--possibly a redistribution of earnings from the higher-profit areas as an investment in growing the sport.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Quote:
I went to a Greenville Drive baseball game last week a majority of the starters were from the caribbean and south america, i doubt if a majority of those kids came from middle or upper class families.
Follow the money!
There's money in Major League Baseball. That's why they are here. If we created a soccer opportunity for underpriviledged Dominicans (academies in the DR), they would be playing professionally in Mexico City, Bogota, Quito, Lima, Buenos Aires and San Salvador. They wouldn't be in Greenville, South Carolina!
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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Coach Chass, thanks for clarifying the earlier $930 number I used in a simple analysis of cost and impact to lower income families (nothing about minorities). It was based on mid range of HappyDaddy's numbers and not anything more scientific. Everyone is quite correct about varying prices between clubs and levels of play. The trouble is without picking on anyone (club) in particular and published fees it is hard to be more precise. Also thanks for the plug about our mission and attempts to make soccer more affordable. We are trying and slowly getting there with more growth this year. I guess it is hard to fathom why soccer people (we are) would give it away which is I'm afraid a symptom of the problem and a sad indictment of our sport today.
I think you have to consider regional options and choices clubs make as a factor in cost. Some clubs choose to play in classic competition which in the lowcountry means more money and travel. Many games in Columbia area. This despite attempts by local league and some clubs to keep classic local. Rationale being that these teams in some cases are on par with a U14 team playing in LSYSA, or at least would be if all clubs kept this level local (if not challenge). I can only imagine it is the power of marketing a 'travel' team that appeals to some believing as someone said earlier, the more you travel, the better your team and players. For a player from Charleston playing a classic game in Columbia what is that cost on any given Saturday? Tank of gas, lunch out for mom, dad, little brother, and our soccer star. add it up. What conservatively (driving the Camry and not my wife's Suburban) $70. 8 times a season and could be looking at over $500 that could be avoided by a game 7 miles up the road and eating lunch (last night's leftovers) at home.
I think we are in for an interesting time with SCYSA leadership up for grabs next week, and remarks made at the coastal district meeting earlier in the summer regarding a preference to push classic back to local competition. I have to believe the whole coastal district could find enough classic/high level rec teams to compete at an appropriate level and keep costs lower, and if some (players or teams) excel, push these to challenge and good luck. This would save the $850 team outlay (bond included) Chass talks about and in general reduce costs around here for a large number of kids and possibly open the door to more. Our club is just entering this next bracket wiith U14's but will hold them locally for now due to cost concerns and our hope suitable competition will exist (at least for us). If not, we'll just enter an extra tournie. For the record, I do not have a problem with SCYSA fees (trickle down) from them in the most part. I have complained about the tournie rostering fee that seems like chiseling to me, but other than that, I think we get good value for our players and feel comfortable with the backing of the organization. Our highest soccer costs are probably ref fees but it is what it is and not saying they don't deserve it (we even payed the ref fees for end of season tournament for our teams and that hurt). Our budget is made up of a mix of fundraising and relatively low fees and we can do it without any tournament revenue. We also provide unlimited scholarships, pay rent, fund (slow) construction, and pay a few coaches (now). I'm sure if other more profitable clubs put their minds to it, we could see costs come down (and they become less profitable which depending on current balance sheets, operating expenses, and equity reserves, might be a healthy thing).
satus quod perago validus - start and finish strong
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Then why not offer a youth soccer program for underprivledged americans.... Here's why.. There's no money in it for the big clubs. Big Clubs want nothing to do with it.
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I don't think there should be special soccer programs for any group or individual period. Whether based on ethnicity, domicile, class, or economic situation. Yes that even includes Americans. Soccer is a sport for all. I know you don't mean that but you put the soapbox right there for me and couldn't resist it.  Just provide reasonably priced services that everyone can enjoy. Can't speak for the larger (big) clubs but of course my hope is that if us small ones build the right program, offer great quality and value, we will become bigger ones over time. Then it becomes a matter of whether clubs hold true to their beliefs and mission (whatever that is). For us its primarily about availabilty and/or accessibility and treating everyone the same on (and off) the field.
satus quod perago validus - start and finish strong
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Lsysa league is growing fast, spring was the first season for girls u14 which had 4 relatively local quality teams that also did well on the classic level during a few tournys.
very low cost & the girls can play their game on sat and/or sun & not spend all day in the car. i thinks its going to attract alot of girls who were burnt out with the classic/challenge travel & parents like it for the lower cost & it keeps that tough age group focused on a sport.
i think the local classic teams should check it out, it would def. attract alot more girls & boys to the sport.
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Interesting article. Its essential point seems to be that "serious" elite youth sports isn't for everyone. No argument there. I'd even agree that it isn't even right for every kid who has the ability to compete at the elite levels. Every family and young athlete has to decide what is the best use of scarce commodities - like time and money. There are options available to suit most every level of involvement they might decide is appropriate. What may not always occur is the ability to afford the preferred option. I don't have an answer for that - as I've said, the cost is the cost, mainly for travel. I still don't know who it is that gbdawg thinks is getting rich off of club soccer.
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HappyDaddy - How much do the head honchos at CESA and SC United get paid? Answer me this, and I'll tell you what gbdawg is thinking.
Rumor is that CESA's folks are in the $75,000 each range with Range Rover, while SC United are in the $25-30,000 range. Not sure what to believe, but there is someone making money somewhere.
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I never said anything about anyone getting rich. The post is "Is soccer an elite sport". Which it is. The cost has sky rocketed since we got in it nine years ago. The cost is travel and that is what most parents on the challenge and premier level have a problem with. These soccer directors think there's a need to drag our kids to places like las vegas, austin, seattle, to play top level competition which is total BS. We have the highest level of competition right here in the southeast. Remember Club soccer directors and Club coaches have no money coming out of their pocket on these trips. The parents are paying for "ALL" of their travel expenses. So no skin off their back. I hope Cainhoy can keep his model of "club soccer" going, we need more like him, to get the sport back to a respectful $$$ level, it will get more youths and better athletes involved.
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Chapindad,
Are you going to see the U17 girls South Korea National team play CESA tonight at Mesa? Maybe this will help change the attitude/interest of Asian girls and soccer. I think they are ranked #1 or close to it.
I wish I had known. I would have probably been up to watch that game. But female Koreans from Korea are not going to have much effect on the minority population of Asian Americans, who still value education on athletics. Plus Koreans tend to be a lot more progressive then the rest of the Asian countries. Korean Dramas actually star very strong Korean Heroins, which not always true in dramas from other Asian countries.
Here I go again!
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chapindad: in regards to your minority post , i think your missing the point. i think were talking about people who cannot afford the sport of soccer at the youth level because of their class, not neccesarily their ethnic background.
Maybe I did miss the point. Because I thought the word minority was used and not income disadvantaged. Unless people are making the assumption is that all minorities are at an income disadvantage. I will recheck the posts to see if I did misunderstand...
Here I go again!
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If you're so inclined, you can go to guidestar.org and look at tax returns for any 501(C)(3), including soccer clubs. It will show all salaries over $100K.
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Why do you care how much the directors/coaches make? It is their chosen profession. I bet if you ask their families if they make enough money for them to miss dinners at home, their own kids activities and church every Sunday morning the would probably say no. As parents we complain when a practice is cancelled or if our team doesn't practice enough. I have been a team manager for years and see the sacrifices these people make. Yeah CESA might have Land Rovers but the average coach isn't getting compensated for the wear and tear on his personal car with $.40/mile.
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I was merely responding to SOS's question to me. Whether he/she, or anyone else, cares enough to look is of no consequence to me.
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Quote:
I was merely responding to SOS's question to me. Whether he/she, or anyone else, cares enough to look is of no consequence to me.
I'm sorry Happy Daddy my comment was directed at gdawg.
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corner kick
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 261 |
momof: don't direct it at me. i could care less on what they make or what they drive. none of my posts mention that at all. my posts have been about the escalating out of control cost of soccer to families.
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 263
Corner Kick
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Corner Kick
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 263 |
What they get paid and what they drive have everything to do with the escalating cost of soccer. While I am all for everyone making as much as they can, the Directors have built a big club, but it does seem the focus of this club has changed from truly developing the local talent to- what will it take to field the best Premier teams.
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Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 57
throw in
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throw in
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 57 |
I couldn't agree more bomber. The only difference between soccer and AAU basketball is the talent is determined by a wallet.
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 374
Corner Kick
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Corner Kick
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 374 |
Again, I'm not one to address concerns or provide potential answers for the costs of higher levels of youth soccer but will certainly lend an opinion on ways at least mid level competition could see savings.
As sandman earlier mentioned LSYSA does now support U14/13 locally for the lowcountry and at first glance seems to represent decent competition at this level. As a club, we're at a crossroads where we have a number of U13/14 teams this coming year and pondering where to play them, or just sit out and play schedule of tournies and friendlies.
I asked SCYSA for thoughts on future of statewide competition at lower levels of Classic and doesn't seem to be any plans to change status quo and I'll probably have to follow up on that (just because it's in my nature).
It was explained to me by knowledgable folks (far more than I) that in addition to stiffer competition at the state level (although that could change if the lowcountry teams stayed home), playing on PMSL actually has a direct benefit to seeding when it comes to Spring championship which I confirmed in rules of the state hosted Publix Presidents Medal Cup. This is questionable in my humble opinion as the rules apparently encourages clubs to push play over distance and directly/indirectly increase cost to families and potentially limits participation (or certainly service) at classic II. Not to mention that a 8-0 team playing in LSYSA is almost certainly better than a 0-8 in classic.
Without even considering the team $850 fees and bond coach Chass discussed, my earlier example a family could spend over $500 each and hours driving back and forth to Columbia. In contrast, the cost to field a squad of 16 players in LSYSA (one season) and annual costs from SCYSA equals a total of $42 each player, and that includes referee fees for 10 games which makes up about 50% of the $. Discalimer: this amount is not what you should expect to pay anywhere as it does not include facilities, admin, or coaching. Still these costs are in the most part fixed regardless of choice of league or competition.
My point in this example is nothing more than pointing out that travel and competition costs do not only affect the top flight teams. I hope we can look at the bigger picture and see the danger (avoidable) high costs have at every level of play and work smarter over time to build competition and administration that encourages and actively seeks to increase player participation and opportunity at each level of our great game.
satus quod perago validus - start and finish strong
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 532
goal
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OP
goal
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 532 |
once word gets out about u14 lsysa, parents & former rec/ classic/challenge players will grow that common sense competitave league...next step u15/16
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 654
goal
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goal
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 654 |
momofboy, like gbdawgs, i could care less what any directors/coaches make, but if i were a cesa parent i certainly would. have you taken the time to look at the link happy provided?
the first word that came to my mind after seeing some of those numbers was obscene. and, i don't mean that i had obscene thoughts; i thought, "that's obscene."
now, i may be reading some of that stuff wrong, but it looked to me like one of those guys got a 15% increase in pay from '07 to '08, and they both got a 23% increase from '08 to '09. the country is deep into a recession, people are getting laid-off left and right, almost everybody is looking for ways to cut back on expenses, but the board of directors at cesa has an extra $50k sitting around, and feel the right thing to do is pass it along to the big guys? seriously?
i would love to know their logic behind that one. heck, maybe that was in anticipation of them bringing home one of those Academy spots? i am honestly shocked that no one – especially from cesa - has said a word about this yet.
of course, they say the kool-aid tastes great in the upstate – maybe i'm the only one who sees anything inappropriate here…
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Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 249
Corner Kick
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Corner Kick
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 249 |
From information received: "Their latest 6 month 1090 states each made $68K!! (For 6 months)."
Is this correct?
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Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 404
goal
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goal
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 404 |
That's what the 1090 says. Last full year report was roughly $112K each if memory serves.
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