SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Boys Varsity Soccer 2 Man Referees VS 3 Man Referee System...

I am curious to know how many schools actually use 3 refs. Last year, with the exception of two playoff games, every game my team was involved in had two refs and our opponents ranged from A to AAA. My issue is the wild inconsistency between refs. In some games you will be yellow carded for a rubber band on the wrist and in others you can physically mug someone without so much as a foul called.

As to competency, how does a referee become competent? Obviously they need to know the laws. They however, have to get on the field and get seasoning. Thus they will make mistakes--hopefully over time they will improve. My point is that it does no good to scream and yell at a referee--particularly a new referee. How many times have you seen loud mouthed coaches and fans scream at a young referee in a youth game? Do you think that young person wants to put up with that? Thus you have many who quit. I know new high school referees this year, I wonder if the coach who has been around 15-20 years will understand that this young person has to learn, thus have patience with him/her. No one believes player safety should be compromised, but in many cases the same coach who teaches a "physical" game, will jump all over the referee who is making "tight" calls against his team. They will be the ones who will yell, "let 'em play"--except when his team is fouled.

You understand, I hope, that in part, you're making my case. Coaches don't walk all over competent officials -- in part, because the officials won't take it, and in part because competent officials make fewer glaring errors. (And by the way, if the SCHSL had ANY credibility, it would aggressively discipline serial referee abusers and intimidators in the coaching ranks. We ALL know who they are.)

That said, I am amazed that you continue to put the officiating "problem" on parents and coaches, but not where it belongs, on the officials themselves, and those who train and certify them. Competent officials ignore parents, and defuse problem kids and coaches with proactive man management. People who are not temperamentally disposed to officiating have "rabbit ears," exacerbate coaching "problems," and throw card after card with no ultimate positive purpose.

You ask the question: How does a referee become competent? For one thing, he doesn't sit in the all-day, overpriced, whining sessions that currently pass for education and certification, then expect to be competent. (Just curious, how many prospective officials aren't certified in any given year? How many bad officials are disciplined/removed?).

Here are a few more suggestions:

1) Each "young" official should be assigned a mentor, who is available to talk/meet when needed. The mentor official should be paid $20/game more for assuming that added responsibility.
2) When a struggling official is identified as such by coaches and peers, he/she should be subject to constructive, unannounced reevaluation in a live match.
3) After the evaluation, he should be reevaluated at least once more in-season to see whether any improvement has been made.
4) Officials should be required to review game video more often. I bet they'd learn a lot, and in the process, garner some respect from coaches.

In conclusion, I would think that coaches, such as yourself, would be fighting to weed out problem coaches and officials. As the adults in the game, you folks are acting in loco parentis when my child is playing. I have the right -- maybe even the obligation -- to lobby on behalf of better officiating and (indirectly) player safety.

If that's by making an occasional direct remark from the sideline, so be it.

You know, it is always interesting to read this discussion year after year. I will come out and tell you that I am a referee, yet not in South Carolina anymore. I absolutely hate having to ref in a two man system....you are usually watching for offsides or for fouls in a two man system, but it is almost impossible to do both well at the same time while using a two man system. I know for a FACT that my performance will not be as good during a two man system rather than a three man. We were at the mercy of the school, and how many referees they hired.

As for parents that think they know the rules, a vast majority never played competitive soccer growing up....hence there is a lack of some understanding when it comes to tactics, strategy, and yes, some rules....some that may not even be well understood by some referees. I am not going to tell you that every parent is this way, there are a few that are very knowledgable, and understand the rules very well. But to take the leap from understanding the rules well, and being able to make that split second call without even having to think, even though the play that just happened was the strangest thing you have ever had the opportunity to see on the pitch. That is where the disconnect comes in. the other thing that really determines how well a referee does with calling a game is positioning. It is all about angles, and if you aren't constantly in motion to keep a good angle to see the play well, no matter how well you think you know the rules and how good you think you are as a referee, you will make mistakes based on not seeing the play/foul well. This is when a three person system is much better, there should always be triangle formations between the referees so that there are many angles being watched, even from the trailing AR.

There is a fitness issue with referees, this is a known problem. Another problem tends to be work schedules for referees. I work as an operator at a nuclear power plant, and unfortunetly last fall and this spring our refueling outages fell right in the middle of the soccer seasons. This causes a lot of good referees to limit their game counts because of scheduling concerns. Actually doing games is how you get better! Now this next statement is just my opinion...but I think there is a huge difference between the "top" referees in soccer and most other sports. In the NFL most are professionals. Ie lawyers, doctors, high power corporate types....then in the MLS referee ranks, you have fedex drivers, people that are waiters etc. These are not well educated people, and aren't driven for overall success in their lives....and your life is a window into your referee style/driven to better attitude. If you are ok with being average in life, you will most likely accept average for your referee performance. I have had these conversations with other referees at state cup events, academy tournaments, college games. There are some people that are referees that should not be.

As for needing better referees, there needs to be a push for getting the referees better, and recruiting better ones. This requires constant physical activity to stay in shape, reading the rule book at least weekly to keep up on every little rule, getting together in referee associations to discuss difficult calls to ensure the calls across the board are consistent, a mentoring program should be involved for every referee, and constant assessment. I tend to watch a lot of high level games on tv just to watch the referring style....so to be a good referee you have to put a lot of time and effort in to be good, just like everything else in life.

Now you have to ask yourself, are you willing to make those sacrifices in your personal life to become a better referee? There is a finite amount of time in a week for your family, work, church, fun activities, and referring. If you would not be willing to make the sacrafice too, learn to just keep your mouth shut, even as a parent. I know you can talk the big talk about how we should have better referees, but I am pretty sure you would not be willing to take time away from seeing your children play on their traveling team, take time away from your wife, or even your golf game. If you are, them good, go out and become a referee, and work on becoming a great referee. I look forward to seeing you on the pitch! I would be proud to work with you!

James Gray

By the way, there are times when competent referees will address the crowd or a problem in the stands. Remember that it is still only a high school game, and certain behaviors are not tolerated. It is up to the referees to maintain control, and I have even cleared a stadium before because racial slurs were being yelled....totally unacceptable, remember, these players are still children! It is up to the referees to protect them, but that does not include having "rabbit ears". I could care less what the fans think of my performanc, I am not there to make them happy, I am there to provide a fair and balanced rendering of the rules, providing a safe environment for the players.

Because I know the profession of some referees I consider the better ones, I have to disagree with your point about that. Some of the best that I know of are most definitely not what you are calling "professionals." But does that mean they are not intelligent, hard-working and successful people? I would answer with a resounding "NO."

Don't know about anybody else, but as a general rule, I'd prefer to NOT have a "lawyer" or "high power corporate type" officiating my child's matches.

Honestly, if you asked me what I think about operators at nuclear power plants, it might be, “Well, if they can’t get a job doing anything else…” (and, to answer your next question, yes, I actually do know a couple nuclear plant operators). But, from reading your posts over the years, you sound like maybe you’re not a typical nuclear plant operator – so, props to you!

Other than that, which actually sounds a tad out of character for you (maybe you’ve been hanging out in areas of the plant you shouldn’t have been?) I tend to agree with most of what you said.

If fans were yelling racial slurs at a match I was attending, soccerboy would have to wait in line behind me. If I wasn't there, and you and your buddies were not taking care of the situation, I would HOPE he would empty the stadium. Racist idiot.

Yep, year after year, the same posts and many of the same comments. So, I'll write my epistle and get if off my chest!!!

I was inspired to get into reffing when I saw what I thought was incompetence by officials occurring on a much-too-regular basis at both my kids' soccer games. Now, 9 years later, I wonder how many "new" officials I have inspired!!!

The plain truth is about half of all new officials quit after the first year; can't handle the fan, coach, and player abuse. You never truly know what it's like to have young players express themselves profanely in your direction on a soccer field until you've experienced it firsthand! You never know what thick skin you have to have when a parent who doesn't understand rules decides to embarrass themselves publicly in your direction until you've experienced it!

Listen, I've worked with some referees who've I've wished I didn't have to work with! On more than one occasion in high school have I worked with a new official - on a two-man system - who's shown up without a whistle or a watch or a set of cards. More times than I care to count.

And I think to myself, these folks have got to start somewhere - I started somewhere and I had some patient folks along the way who helped me immensely. Maybe these folks can glean something from me.

The majority of folks on this message board have an idea of what constitutes a "bad referee". It may not be as easy a thing to define a "good referee". One way to increase our "good referee" pool is to have newer referees work games with patient, more experienced referees.

I would love to have a "mandatory" next-day telephone conversation with the coaches of both teams from the day before and chat about what they saw that could have made for a more positive game. I hope they'd also allow me to say what I saw that could be done better. Wouldn't take very long to do - and it'd be "reportable" and "quantifiable".

It's interesting that I see more often than I'd like high school coaches who are unfamiliar with soccer - that makes it really tough on officials!

Another thing that makes it tough on officials in a 2-man system in high school - most games are played in football stadiums where the fans are sitting higher than the field. Fans are able to see "over" players and are able to see things that an official having to see "through" players isn't going to see.

There needs to be an acknowledgment from coaches to parents - and referees to coaches and players - that calls will be missed - it happens. We officials, as well as coaches and players, have to understand that referees are human therefore we are prone to make mistakes. Coaches can go a long way towards helping parents understand acceptable behavior.

It's always "interesting" when a coach questions a call I made - or didn't make - and I agree with him and say, "Coach, I may have made a mistake on that one". I've found that most coaches appreciate when a referee makes a "sincere" apology about a mistake - I'd love to know a coach's opinion about that. I've found that good officials readily acknowledge their mistakes - there are some officials who, for whatever reason, refuse to admit they made a mistake.

I'll always remember a high school game I was reffing where I called what was perceived as a "late foul" in order to see if "advantage" would develop. The parents started getting on me - the coach, to his credit, turns around to his parents and tells them not to yell at me - then commences to yell at me himself! It was "all good" when I ran over to him to explain why I did what I did.

But, more to the topic; in order to get better, I had to put myself in a position to referee with better officials than me. I was very lucky to be able to ref at the Disney tournament for 3 years - worked with folks from across the nation who were grade 4, 5, and 6 - all willing to share their experience with someone who just soaked it in.

That same thing needs to happen here - but there exists a clique. It seems that a certain pool of officials get the best games and work with each other regularly. I'd regularly get more games in Premier League play ON THE ROAD on fields my kids were playing on when an official wouldn't show up than I'd be assigned here. Same is true of high school situation as you'll see the same folks, if you just watch.

No question the best officials should work Premier League or high school playoff games - how do we determine the "best officials"??? It shouldn't be left to an assigner's discretion but it will be. Coaches, players, and other referees should have the ability to influence the perception of what a good official should be. Those are the folks who have helped shape me into the official I am today.

Because of finances, the two-man system is probably here to stay with high school soccer. We have to look for ways to make the best of what we have. For what it's worth, I have NEVER - at any level - worked with an official who purposely missed a call. I hope I never do.

Every year, we all have to take a test and make an 85 or better on it. That means I can miss 15 per cent of my calls, right?!?!? I have to attend a night of training, another night for the test, get my own uniforms and gear, pay my assigner a $38 fee to book me, pay $36 to the High School League to take the high school exam, and work two nights of scrimmages for free. Why do I do it??? I'd encourage you folks to try it - especially you folks who have a sincere interest in making officials better.

I'm reaching the point in my reffing career where fitness becomes an issue. I don't have many years left and, truth be known, now that my kids are way beyond high school age, I keep wondering why I do it. Maybe it's the thought that I can call a game fairly and the kids on the field will know it - maybe I can help a kid understand they're not going to win all the time in life but they're not always going to lose either - maybe I can help a kid understand the real joy in playing soccer is the relationships with teammates and the experience of being on the field. Maybe I can help a kid understand a referee's not always to blame for what happens on the field.

So, I look forward for one more year to hearing from folks on the pitch - and on this board....

Great stuff dad....very well stated.