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Has anyone discussed the ODP program in relation to other states? While we here in SC have a dysfunctional/troubled/average program (you circle the one you like) other states programs seem to be in better shape, well they beat us when we play. Are some states going to maintain functioning ODP and regional premier programs (as we all know many states bring a lot more teams and players to the table than SC. If these program remain viable and ECNL costs climb (success in soccer always leads to higher prices, think it might be an economic law or something) will not some good players still be found in them, and thus will not coaches still be looking there? (maybe not in SC but else where, heck even SC coaches do not look in SC now  )
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,521
hat-trick
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hat-trick
Joined: Jan 2006
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ecnl is a better option than ODP..No doubt about it..But only one club offers ecnl play so the numbers would be more limited than ODP..
As far as costs and who pays it at CESA...There I said it..Maybe the coaches ate some of that money..Maybe college combine money was used..Does it matter? Maybe the classic parents paid for it..It's not up to us as to where they spend the money..
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 218
corner kick
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corner kick
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 218 |
Quote:
I honesty don't remember how CAP was incorporated.
Anyone else recall?
Did the club fees go up $100 when CAP was added as part of the program?
or
Did we actually write a check for CAP?
or
Was it just included as part of the fees with no increase?
or
Something else?
I don't ever remember paying $100 for CAP. I thought it was free to CESA players and non-CESA players paid a fee of $100. I do know I've never written a seperate check for the CAP program. I'm not sure where the part of it being mandatory for all premier/challenge players came from.
Earlier someone mentioned that they worked in the concession stand during football season to earn money for soccer. So I can imagine a football parent buying a Snickers bar for $1.00. (an outrageous price for a Snickers in my opinion) Then the football parent finds out that their money didn't go to the football team, but to the soccer team. What's the rationale for this? That the school athletic department is one big entity? That someone in charge has the audacity to take revenue and decide where to spend it? I know the comparison is a little out of scale.
In the CAP scenario, if I paid $100 for the CAP program I'd probably just go play in the 6-8 games against college teams and call it a real bargain. If it was part of my club fee (which I think it was) I would be even a little happier playing in those games.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 218
corner kick
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corner kick
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 218 |
Back to ECNL vs. ODP. I like the idea of ECNL better because there are more games involved. In our current ODP structure, kids pay money to their club. Then they pay more money to ODP so that they can play in 2-3 subregional games. Then pay more money to go to region camp. They get exposure along the way, but the real value comes if you actually make the regional team. In ECNL, kids pay money to the club and will play in 30 high level games with lots of exposure simply by playing.
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Joined: Apr 2009
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Do not think we are looking at an ECNL or ODP thing. They cannot really be compared, structure is too different.
IMHO the question is about if ECNL will weaken ODP (it will) or if some top level players will choose R3 and ODP over ECNL (they will due to cost and other reasons some of which I say below).
I think a fair look at ECNL requires the possibility that on the path they are headed girls will be doing only ECNL in the near future. No ODP, no HS if it conflicts with ECNL and with year round games and training how can it not. I know as of right now they are saying they do not want to interfere with HS but at some point something will have to give! My guess the guys getting $5000 of your money and "getting" your player college exposure for the scholarship or offers to play in college will have your ear. Look at it this way we know now that kids skip HS tournaments for high level club events imagine when they are told you need to just not play HS soccer to focus on our club season.
If your daughter was on a team trying to get exposure to college coaches and you had a really good player or two hurt before a big game against another top ECNL team (you know one where you know many college coaches will be at) how are you/team/coach going to feel. Soccer is very much a chemistry sport, a team with less skill/talent can beat a slightly better team if they have better team chemistry, you just lost your chemistry and now your player will not shine her best because the "right" teammate is not out there with her that day.
Another way of looking at it would be the coaches, how many of the ECNL coaches are also HS coaches? I believe in the Charlotte ECNL program all the coaches only coach at the club level or higher (college), anyone know if CESA is same? These coaches and clubs first interest is themselves (which means their members and staff not bashing anyone here) and so HS soccer is not a concern for them they are trying to improve players, which we can find on this board over and over again HS soccer does not do, actually hurts them in the opinion of some. So if you accept those premises then you can see that HS soccer will soon be coming off the radar of the elite players because the system is moving that way.
I think there is a good chance we will eventually have a two tier system of ECNL or R3/Premier/ODP/HS players for a time frame then if ECNL becomes the obvious place to get college offers we will see it grow down to younger ages because that is where you need to start developing skills to become a ECNL player.
Last edited by The Chief; 05/06/11 02:32 AM.
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 165
goal kick
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goal kick
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 165 |
Chief,
I thought that was a well thought out post.
I do want to clarify one thing. No one gets $5,000. Some goes to the club, some to hotels, some to gas stations, some to tournaments etc.
Intestingly, for my family, the past two years of ECNL has not really cost much more than previous years. We replaced going to one set of tournaments with ECNL events. For several of the more distant ECNL events that required air travel, we were not always able to attend with our daughter. But when you compare the costs from 3-4 years ago to the last two years, it really hasn't been a lot more for us.
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Thanks, on the money thing I am not saying the clubs are getting rich on this, is more of a comment on the general cost and from what I have heard the overall, as in cost to parents, numbers for ECNL are higher than what was there before. Of course we have such a short time and small sample to compare it to that I think it may take a few years for the cost thing to bear out what the actual costs are on average. I think some of the club bashing that goes on about cost is silly, do not like the cost; go somewhere else; or get involved and change things. I HATE(not sure if that is a strong enough word!)  not seeing my girl play and avoid it whenever possible, but I guess it is about them and not our need to see them  . Maybe some of the numbers I have heard included parents cost to not miss events, since before they would have gone to most events.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558
Goal
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Goal
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558 |
Quote:
DeltaDog. This is for you! Your waiting has ended 
ECNL over ODP any day. But I do think someone earlier had a very valid point and, in all this subsequent venom, it was probably missed.
The exposure from the ECNL showcase games has been great. But I agree with the poster that there is a real possibility and risk that the regional ECNL games will have the same attendance as an R3PL game. The only way I see it could be different is if the ECNL does a better job of letting colleges in the area know about the games.
So as the ECNL expands, I think it is taking on the risk of providing less value, real or perceived. Hopefully they recognize this and have taken steps to address it, but I have no information would lead me to believe that is or is not the case.
I don't see a CESA/CASL ECNL league game attracting more coaches than a CESA/CASL R3PLE league game. As ECNL continues it's expansion of teams and development as an organization it will became a coin toss argument as to which league offers greater exposure. If it's exposure you're looking to get from league play. College coaches will come to league games in the Fall, but only when those attendances do not conflict with their own college league schedules.
ECNL was very smart to hitch it's league games the last couple of years to existing major tournaments that already had long lists of college coaches already attending, a continuation of what they were doing as the Red Bull League. However, CESA teams could have, probably should have, been attending tournaments like CASL, Disney and PDA, etc. anyway. Perhaps it was good that ECNL required the participation at CASL and got the teams back in Raleigh, but the teams could have been enjoying the same level of exposure and competition at those events without an ECNL logo on their jerseys. After about a 6 year absence for my daughter, her u-18 team played CASL Shootout (well, ECNL league games during the tournament), and after the last game she looked around and said, "We should have been coming here all along".
My point, so far, is that as ECNL continues to expand and evolve you will end up with regional or conference games providing similar exposure and level of competition as the teams are already realizing in R3PLE. And, as most of what are called the ECNL "events" are actually existing tournaments offering the same levels of exposure and competition to those not in ECNL you're not gaining any more access than you already had. So, take your pick between organizations.
Now, ECNL vs. ODP is really a comparison of two different types of beasts, as is ECNL vs. R3PL. Unless, you're actually asking about the conflict for some players between the ECNL games and Region ODP Camp both in July (kind of a ECNL vs. Viking Cup debate). The decision the players will eventually be making will be whether they participate in leagues/programs put forth by ECNL (evolving sub-regional level play, national "events" including a national championship, and id2 player identification) or by USYSA (SCYSA state leagues/championships, R3PL sub-regional play, a national league for those that qualify, regional and national championships and ODP player identification).
But, let's take the first... 3 ECNL games in July vs. Region ODP camp. Strictly on perceived value of experience over the last 6 years (no dropping the "committment" card to muddy the comparison at this point), Region ODP camp hands down. Of course, without listing all the reasons for that decision, unlike others here I don't expect the state ODP programs to provide the player development the players should already be getting through their local clubs. Don't get me wrong, I love it when it happens but I don't expect it to the extent some here seem to.
At the heart of ODP it is a series of tryouts/identification at the state, regional and national levels that offers players, beginning at the grass roots level, the opportunity to essentially tryout for the national team. The team that plays in the Olympics. While all players don't make the state teams, fewer make the region teams and even fewer the national, I believe there are benefits including those considered "added value" at all levels that a player is capable of achieving.
ECNL also has a player identification program (or an association with such a program), and it is id2. It seems to be a good program for what it intends to do, but it is a program at the national level only and does not include opportunities for recognition of those players capable of participating in state and region level pools and teams. And, the last time I checked the oldest age group included in the id program is 16 years. 3 ECNL games or id2 vs. ODP... we'd be back in Alabama again if hadn't just aged out.
So, I believe the real comparison should be between ECNL and all the opportunities it provides vs. USYSA and all the opportunities provided there. Given that comparison I'd choose USYSA and continue to take advantage of what I see as a greater variety of opportunities at a wider variety of playing levels for both the teams and the individuals involved. Especially the opportunity to participate in ODP. Added value impact on recruiting... put a "Member Region III ODP Team" stamp of college coaches' approval on the profile your daughter sends out and see how many schools come knocking on your door with offers in some cases very nearly sight unseen. There is no state or region level identification/participation offered by ECNL through id2 that you can add to your profile.
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Joined: May 2009
Posts: 165
goal kick
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goal kick
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 165 |
You guys are going to have to stop making well thought out and reasonable posts or no one will ever come to this message board:)
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 74
throw in
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throw in
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 74 |
I agree with DeltaDog except on one point. My daughter actually got development out of ODP but she was in a different age group then his and had a consistent coach for several years. It was a great experience until the last year when a lot of girls didn't try out and the skill level dropped off. ODP offered a chance for exposure to another coaching style and by college coaches. Outside of the last year of ODP, the "skill" level of the team was higher than her club team that played in the premier league and ECNL. Also since ODP goes on a calendar year age group, and ECNL teams go on July to June age group, the player gets to play with some different highly skilled players which help develop the player on how to be a more versatile team mate. I hope they can continue to coexist. It seems ECNL will become more in conflict with the premier league. With the regional games ECNL is forming, I'm not clear what the difference will be except it takes out the "state" , and regional recognition that premier league offered - maybe that is reason enough to couple ECNL with ODP. ODP just being a state, regional and national level "all star" events with specialized camps done by college coaches.
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