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so...... the odp teams, almost all, have been announced, and i thought we should have a discussion about ecnl vs. odp.....again. A) is odp "watered down" because some premier players are now doing ecnl? B) is ecnl "watered down" because some premier players are doing odp? C) does it really make a difference? D) is this all just a further example of how fractured youth soccer is in sc? what say we have a go at it? happy bloviating! 
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Is Region 3 Premier League relevant anymore? 
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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isn't any advanced level competition relevant at any time?
Last edited by nothersoccerdad; 05/01/11 04:45 PM.
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will sc/cesa teams playing in encl be allowed to play r3pl next year? i believe the nc & ga teams that are a part of encl will not be playing r3pl beginning next season. i don't think any fl club has joined encl so they will stay w/r3pl.
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4/29 at Aiken, JV Girls
Lex 7 - 0 Aiken
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Quote:
isn't any advanced level competition relevant at any time?
Just curious as to why you didn't include this level in your original post. If you have a "club soccer budget" of say......$2,500, don't you have to look at all three options?
Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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From what I heard doing ECNL at NC clubs will run a "little" more the $2500 (a lot more last year). Just club fee for CSA is $3750 (for team below U18) this year, sure there are going to be some expenses on top of that, so 4000-4500 sound like a min cost this year. Any one wanna take a shot at what CESA Ecnl cost or R3 costs??????
Same question can be asked about the Region 3 level of play becasue of the ECNL teams bailng to play only ECNL league play.
Last edited by The Chief; 05/02/11 01:03 AM.
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Quote:
Quote:
isn't any advanced level competition relevant at any time?
Just curious as to why you didn't include this level in your original post. If you have a "club soccer budget" of say......$2,500, don't you have to look at all three options?
i was just saying that any opportunity to do something at a higher level is a good thing.
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Quote:
so......
the odp teams, almost all, have been announced, and i thought we should have a discussion about ecnl vs. odp.....again.
A) is odp "watered down" because some premier players are now doing ecnl?
B) is ecnl "watered down" because some premier players are doing odp?
C) does it really make a difference?
D) is this all just a further example of how fractured youth soccer is in sc?
what say we have a go at it?
happy bloviating!
ODP in SC has been watered down long before ECNL or Region III, in my opinion, because it has never had even close to all of the best players in SC tryout/participate. I don't think that there are many, if any, players opting not to do ECNL or Region III because they are involved in ODP.
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Quote:
A) is odp "watered down" because some premier players are now doing ecnl?
B) is ecnl "watered down" because some premier players are doing odp?
C) does it really make a difference?
D) is this all just a further example of how fractured youth soccer is in sc?
My understanding is that, at present, CESA is going to attempt to field a single team that will play RIIIPL and ECNL similar to what they did last year. They are likely going to have a large roster because that is a LOT of games; nearly 30 ECNL games alone.
CSA in Charlotte has changed their team heirarchy and created a new team that is exclusively ECNL. Their Predator(old top level) team will compete in RIIIPL. Both have significant expenses tied to them.
ODP is still an option for all.
I know kids that are in all 3 and kids who have picked only one avenue.
Now on to your questions. It appears to me that in the short run, CESA's larger roster and CSA's multiple teams is actually giving more kids a chance to play against other states. If that constitutes watered down because more "little susie's" are getting a chance, then absolutely. Is that a negative; I am not convinced it is.
As far as the state being fractured, it has been ever since my kids were old enough to play and probably still will be when my kids are gone. Every year something changes and some club does something controversial. Somebody will feel left out and try to merge with somebody else until all the egos(& paychecks) in the state are fed. Certainly, USYS will heavily promote an alternative to ECNL and the pendulum will swing the other direction.
RIIIPL is still a very viable league. At last glance, there were zero Florida teams in ECNL(I am sure the board statisticians will proof my work). Those clubs down there still have an RIIIPL championship as their primary target. NC has two ECNL teams in the Mid-Atlantic Region, SC 1, GA 3, AL 1, VA 1. The real bulk of the ECNL teams is not in the Southeast. Any team that makes RIIIPL has a tough schedule ahead. It's not the YMCA just because a few clubs created ECNL teams. Winning a state league and going to regionals / nationals is also still a huge deal and great experience.
In the end, I say it is NOT bad to have all of this going on for our kids.
The real shame of it all is the $$$$.$$ to play.
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Do you have any idea on the CESA costs and how they are going to juggle the who gets to play in which game thing? If the ECNL games are drawing more college coaches (thats how it is being sold ,right?) then who will be happy to pay the same amount to get fewer "good" games. Also what about the ECNL sub rule, really going to limit playing time players do get if you have a large roster and have to get everyone in?
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More venues? More games? What happened to developement. Here's a good article from a pretty well respected coach in US Soccer that was put out just a few months ago. From reading this article is your club developing your child into a good soccer player, or are they just looking at dollar signs. Read this and determine if this sounds like your club.
Originally Posted by Unregistered
World Cup Champion coach Tony DiCicco rips U.S. soccer development
October 21st, 2010 6:25 pm ET
By L.E. Eisenmenger, U.S. Soccer Examiner
In part..............
LE: So, what's holding back soccer development in the United States?
DiCicco: Youth soccer is big business. For them it’s about winning the next match and if you win, more of the better players come to my club and I make more money. The coaches should be mandating, absolutely mandating, that their players come and watch the professional game. Not just because it’s supporting professional soccer, but because their players will learn from watching this level. They will learn more from doing an hour and a half training session if they come and watch a game.
I coached the U-20 men back in 93, I was the assistant coach and we were preparing for a World Championship in Australia. We were in England. We were a good team, the U-20 Men’s National team, all the best 18, 19, and 20 year-olds in America. We went to see Manchester United play Queens Park Rangers in London and it was a great game. Tremendous intensity, speed of play, tackling, runs off the ball. The next day in training, the players were better players just from watching that game. That’s what we’re missing in this country.
On the girls’ side our players are not smart players, they lack sophistication, they’re not technical enough. If I get a stud athlete and I get her to out-run everybody and I put the ball over the top 15 times, she might score two or three goals and we win the game. But eventually that stud athlete comes up against a stud defender and it doesn’t work anymore and she doesn’t know how else to play because she’s never been coached properly. We have a lot of that. I don’t blame the players, I don’t blame the parents, I blame programs and I blame the coaches.
I know the U.S. game, I coached the U-20s in 2008. There’s no other player in America who can hold the ball like Kelly Smith. How can this be? But if you don’t come and see how Marta or Kelly Smith or Bompastor or Abby Wambach plays, how are you going to get better? Is our average player getting better? Yes, our average player is getting better, but where’s the next Mia Hamm? Where’s the next Kristine Lilly, the next Michelle Akers? They’re not there.
The reason they’re not there is because our system is not developing players. In the women’s game, we have the most players playing in the world at youth levels, but last year nine of the top ten strikers in WPS were international players. This year it’s better, Wambach and Arod are up there, but everyone else at the top are international players. Why is that?
LE : How do you turn the pyramid around?
DiCicco: Our players are not getting the foundations of the game. Our players are not technical. Right now in the U-17 World Cup, the semifinalists are South Korea, North Korea, Japan, and Spain. Three Indonesian teams - they’re all about technique. Their coaches emphasize it. Our coaches at U-10 emphasize winning. You can win games and sacrifice player development and that’s what’s happening in our system. Why is that happening? Like I said, youth soccer is big business. If I don’t win, it doesn’t matter if I’m developing players, my business is going to hell. If I win, I attract other good players and by doing that I win more games.There are some very good programs out there, some coaches that are doing a really good job. But for the most part we have almost a generation of young kids that have not been developed properly.
My U-20 team, I had to cut Casey Nogueira. Casey is so talented, but she had never been cut from anything. She had a free pass from one age group National Team to the next age group National Team to the next. When I cut her, it was the best thing that ever happened to her. That year she played lights out, led the team, scored around 24 goals because she was finally told it wasn’t good enough.
Our players are not coached enough. What scares me is our U-20s this past July at the U-20 World Cup. They lost in the quarterfinals and came in somewhere between 5th-8th. That’s the lowest finish of any U.S. team ever in a World Cup. Our U-17s didn’t get out of CONCACAF. We’re losing ground now and it’s really serious.
I don’t know of any federation that’s spending more money on their women’s program than the United States. Maybe Germany, maybe a couple others, but the U.S. is certainly in the top three as far as funding for their youth-and-full Women's National Team programs.
Overseas, kids grow up in a soccer culture. The German player sees the game eons above the American player the same age. When I was coaching U-20 women, I turned to my assistant coach and said, “Why is it that we’re playing the same age group, but we’re like, playing up? Because these players see the game so much better than we do. The U.S. has won because they’ve had adequate technique, had some pretty sophisticated players, but we’ve been dominant athletically and with mentality. And now I hear that mentality is not so good. If we lose mentality, we will not be winning too many World Cups in the future. We’ve got to work to get our game back. Pia Sundhage has an excellent team and she’s going to make a run at the World Cup Championship, but our U-17s didn’t even get into a World Cup, our U-20’s were locked out of the quarterfinals.
The 1970 Brazilian National Team won the World Cup in Mexico, but the next time Brazil won a World Cup was 1994 – 24 years later. It happens in our League. The last time we won a World Cup was my team in 1999. It’s going to be 11-12 years from now before we have a chance to win another one. We won some Olympics and that’s really important to American teams, but to the rest of the world the World Cup is the World Cup. That’s the real test, that’s where you have 16-24 teams competing. In the Olympics you’ve got 10-12 teams now.
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A lot of this has to do with goals -- and not the ones you score. Clubs are businesses. Club coaches/trainers are in it for the money. Parents pay the money NOT to develop great players, but in the ridiculous long-shot hope of having their kids' educations paid for.
What bothers me is, many of the very people who COMPLAIN about our "system" are the very ones who support and propogate it.
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Whatever happened to the ECNL rule (?) that you could not play
for ODP, state cup , etc... ala USSF academy?
And there is also the rule that an R3PL team must consist of 50% plus 1 of the previous year players?
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It is my understanding that CSA and CASL are both giving up their R3PL spots, because they are unable to comply with the 51% rule for R3PL and field an ECNL team.
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gbdawgs
The article you've copied doesn't sound at all like the club I belong to. The two statements in bold don't resemble it at all. This past year, our team played in Region III premier league and ECNL. It was more games. More importantly, it was more quality games. Yet, the money that I payed to the club did not increase. Yes, I did spend more money traveling but the club did not get rich off of me.
I also know that at U-10 winning is absolutely NOT emphasized and is barely even mentioned at the club I'm in. I have seen other clubs where younger players win games 10-0 or even more. I have experienced life at our club at the younger ages and there are great efforts to make sure that games are evenly matched and that when there is a mismatch coaches are educated enough to find something technical to focus on instead of simply scoring more goals etc.
I am sure that there are clubs out there that fit what Tony is describing. But I don't see it in the club I'm involved with. I would certainly never argue with someone like Tony DiCicco with regards to U.S. soccer. But I'm always a little amused when I hear someone like him say "I know the U.S. game, I coached the U-20s in 2008". Really? Is the U-20 full national team a microcosm of the club soccer in the U.S. from pre U-10 through U-18? Can you judge every soccer club in America and make such generalizations like "For them it's about winning the next match" simply because you haven't seen the next Mia Hamm or Michelle Akers? Is going to watch the WPS really that big of a difference maker? Should every girl in SC make trips to Atlanta to watch games? I wonder if there would be any financial ramifications for Tony and others on the U.S. staff if there were more teams in the WPS and higher attendance. Should girls who are Chelsea and Arsenal and Manchester United fans that watch games on TV regularly benifit more by watching the Beat?
Anyway, getting off topic a little maybe. I guess I'm just not drinking Tony's Kool Aid. Wow, did I just say Kool Aid?
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Quote:
Do you have any idea on the CESA costs and how they are going to juggle the who gets to play in which game thing? If the ECNL games are drawing more college coaches (thats how it is being sold ,right?) then who will be happy to pay the same amount to get fewer "good" games. Also what about the ECNL sub rule, really going to limit playing time players do get if you have a large roster and have to get everyone in?
More college coaches is not how it's "being sold". Our coach, and for that matter everyone at CESA I've ever talked to, has always said that college exposure is a secondary benifit. The games and the level of opponent is the primary benifit. In the U-17 Premier league, CASL finished second by 1 point. In ECNL, they were 17th. CSA finished tied for fourth in Premier league. In ECNL, they were 20th. In the U-15 age group, Atlanta Fire and CASL tied for first place. In ECNL, they were 32nd and 19th respectively.
As for costs, I would echo what others said when SC Utd went to Academy: call them and get information from the source. Or you could listen to the same 8 people that are always on here.
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For my money, if the club's teams are sweeping state championships earning their way on their own merits to the same tournament events as ECNL, I'd stay with USYSA and ODP. If one or more of my club's teams couldn't get into CASL, Disney, PDA, etc. on their own merits then I might consider ECNL.
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Funny how everyone says call and find out. Is it so bad that no one will put out a number? I was only wondering what the cost was, I guess you do not know and that's ok I was hoping someone would share the info.
As for the being sold, notice the ( ... ?) it is a question of weather that is what is happening or not. You can say the club is not pushing the college coach angle but ECNL is, like others R3 and premier event who list college coaches in attendance to be fair.
I have a hard time thinking that these parents are shelling out an extra (lets say 2000) a year just so Suzy gets to play in better games, maybe some are. I think most see it as a better chance for Suzy to be "seen", and yes develop skills becasue they want Suzy to play (/get money) in college.
Just a side thought but funny how the money is so high the last 3-4 years when they are learning precentage wise the least but has biggest impact on the college outlook, but the early years where they learn most (percentage wise) and develop the skill that determine how far they will eventually go cost so much less. Right????
Oh and lastly what about the playing time thing???
Last edited by The Chief; 05/03/11 03:15 AM.
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The amount of money I paid to CESA was $675 last year. They may raise the price this year because they haven't the past few years but I believe it is the same this year. But if I were you, I wouldn't take it from me. You don't even know who I am. I could be on the payroll or I could be a disgruntled parent whose kid quit. I would call the office if I were you. I feel like we've been over this before, but the hotels and the gas station will get more of my money than CESA will.
Better games, being seen and developing all go hand in hand at this level. So you're really paying for all 3. It's almost a cause/effect relationship. Playing better games helps you develop as a player. Put 22 high caliber players on each of 10-12 fields at the same time and coaches will come watch. It's all very simple.
What about the playing time? I never saw an issue with playing time last year. I don't anticipate an issue this year. We had 20+ players available on the roster last year. We always took 14-16 players to a game and everyone played. This year, I don't believe we'll have 22 on the roster but I can't be sure. I don't get to make those decisions.
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Actually someone nicely PM'ed me numbers (after I posted, imagine someone trying to be helpful without an agenda in a forum  ) so thats ok but thanks for your ... help anyway. I was not bashing CESA I was only wonder what the cost was vs NC ECNL teams. Neither are on my list of thing to do right now but it is nice to know what options there are. So you agree that it s about the college coaches and that is what ECNL sells (maybe not club but big picture). They are not alone I just see them ECNL) as another option and wonder about expense vs value i.e. how many of the players would still get offers playing at premier level for less, can never really know but it is worth considering. On the playing time thing I was more courious about the new sub rule that ECNL was putting in place this year. Large roster with limited subs means someone will get less time. Unless a coach is going to run his game by a stop watch and not worry about wins and loss because the best player for the situation can not be on pitch right now due to playing time fairness. I know how high strung parents are at levels below ECNL cant imagine they get more laid back as they pay more. Just wondering how some thinnk it will work out.
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Not aware of any new sub rule. Rules last year seemed to work out just fine. And no, I don't agree that it's 'about college coaches'. Read again.
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Chief your correct it doesn't matter what venue your participating in. College coaches are still going to come. College coaches were attending R3 premier events long before ECNL existed. We saw the same college coaches at R3 and ODP events that we saw at our ECNL events.If your looking for a club, find one that's more into development rather than in the travel agency business. If your child develops into a good soccer player a college will find your child.Coach DiCicco in his article I think was trying to point out that clubs should focus more on player development and practice than focus on how many high level games you can play accross the country. I found another article in the Columbus Dispatch that sheds some more light on this issue.
Report: Youth sports come at high cost
Participation pressures families to spend big bucks and chase glory
COLUMBUS, Ohio (AP) — A year-round, $5 billion youth sports industry is pushing some children too hard and pressuring families to spend big money traveling the country for games, specialized training and the pursuit of elusive college scholarships, The Columbus Dispatch reported Sunday. At a minimum, many youths are robbed of their childhood, the newspaper said in the first of a five-part series. Families easily can sink up to $50,000 a year in youth sports.
One Cleveland family spent $30,000 in six months to help their son pursue a soccer dream, the newspaper said. Another mother arranged to send her 11-year-old son to live with a trainer in Alabama to refine his football skills.
About 40 million children participate in youth sports — nearly six times as many who play high school sports and 100 times as many who play at an NCAA college.
To examine the sports culture, the Dispatch surveyed about 1,000 Ohio high school students and 213 coaches, along with 70 athletes and 33 coaches from Ohio State University. More than 40 percent said their parents pressured them to play, and 10 percent said their parents’ behavior during games embarrassed them.
“Too many parents today want to be agents instead of parents,” said Dave Klontz, head baseball coach at Heath High School.
Sandy Baum, an economics professor at Skidmore College in Saratoga, N.Y., and an expert on financial aid, said parents are making the wrong investment.“ Your kid is much better off studying and doing well academically than spending all the time on the soccer field .” In the past decade, the amount of money pouring into nonprofit youth sport organizations has doubled to nearly $70 million in Ohio, according to IRS tax data. Nationally, those groups are collecting $5 billion a year.
Some students feel caught between high school and youth sports coaches. About 25 percent of high school students said they felt pressed to play at a higher level of competition. As a consequence, nearly half of the high school coaches said some athletes have quit their teams to focus on playing with non-school teams. Coaches say youth sports need a governing body similar to the Ohio High School Athletic Association.
Colleges and schools also are required to examine the criminal backgrounds of coaches. Many youth sports leagues aren’t.
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As regards high school soccer in our state, the reality is this:
High school soccer is a great low-pressure vacation; a chance to hang with friends and play for your school; a chance to get a hug from your family and friends afterward.
These things are very important in LIFE.
However, high school soccer is not an ideal, or even good, environment for player development. From what I've seen, many "elite club" kids "play down" to the level of their high school teammates, rather than helping to lift them to a higher level.
Human nature, I suppose.
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Put 22 high caliber players on each of 10-12 fields at the same time and coaches will come watch. It's all very simple.
I read again and this is what seems to agree with what I said.
What coaches? Why do you care if there are coaches there?
"hand in hand", yes but the reason for the one hand is to get the other hand to wave to a College coach. So if that is what the point is then it is being "sold" as getting seen by college coaches, directly or indirectly it is what they are "offering" for your money. (did not say I thought is was bad or good just saying that is what it is)
The rule change thing may not be done yet but from my reading they are moving to 7 subs a game and once you leave you are out for rest of game. Now you may want to find other sources for that but it seems ECNL board is considering it.
Last edited by The Chief; 05/03/11 02:43 PM.
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Chief: My philosophy is simple. If you're good enough as an athlete and student, college coaches will find you. Which is one reason why all this early commitment stuff is nonsense, and nothing more than an ego stroke for kids and their parents.
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Gee that seems like the hard way to do it, are you sure there is not a short cut? 
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Chief: My philosophy is simple. If you're good enough as an athlete and student, college coaches will find you. Which is one reason why all this early commitment stuff is nonsense, and nothing more than an ego stroke for kids and their parents.
Backscreen not to say i totally disagree with you but a coach is not going to find you if they do not know you are there or where to look. I have had a couple of coaches tell me they cant see every game at an event so they go to games to see players they know about. Kids have to make that initial contact.
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Fair enough, in the sense that kids SHOULD make some kind of initial contact. That having been said, most coaches know who the prospects are by doing X-amount of legwork on their own. They gossip with fellow coaches, call club and high school coaches, etc. Showcase events tend to be more of a confirmation of mutual interest, rather than a mining and discovery process. Not that the latter never happens. Just RARELY.
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I was told one time that at a u-17 ecnl game there were close to 80 coaches on the sideline. In that case i can agree with you that they will find you. Im sure the u-16 may not have as many on the sideline and i know the u-15 do not. The u-15 age may be a good time to make that initial contact with a coach to let them know who you are and where you are at so they do not have to find you.
Think about this. At the u-17 age you are past Sept 1st of your jr year when coaches can officaly contact you. If they are just now finding you then it may be to late. u-16 girls in the fall are playing their final club season before the coaches can contact them. That season is the last chance a coach can see them play before they start contacting players about coming to play for them. the u-15 girls are at the right age to get started getting their name out there. You have to remember that some u-15s are already soph in high school and in the same boat as the u-16s. I would not wait to see if a coach finds me and i would help them find me.
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Wow! 80 coaches. Think about that for a minute, and ask yourself, how many college programs can I name? Assuming no duplication, that's the equivalent of EVERY program from SIX different 12-team conferences being there. And eight more, to boot.
Possible, yes. But there must have been a coaches'convention nearby!
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Not sure about the 80 but thats what i was told. Im sure it could of been stretched a little. I think these events are like a convention for the coaches. There was one game at the Orlando ecnl event that had about 12 coaches on the sideline.
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We've attended R3PL, ECNL, ODP and USYSA Regional games over the last few . The number of coaches on the sidelines at ECNL games has far exceeded anything I've seen at the other events. In fact, at U16 and above, each ECNL game gets more coaches on the sidelines than all R3PL games combined.
However, keep in mind that these ECNL games are the showcase events. In the coming year, it sounds like there will be more regional games. I would expect only a small fraction of the coaches to attend these regional games compared to a showcase. In fact, I'd expect the attendance to be similar to R3PL games unless ECNL advertises the games to regional coaches (i.e. some kind of "get out the coach" initiative).
I guess what I'm saying is that comparing coaches at ECNL showcase games v R3PL league games probably isn't really comparing apples-to-apples. Regardless, in the end, the competion and experience gained by the players at both is great.
On a different note, I'd like to echo someone elses comments about dollars going to the club since ECNL. Overall soccer costs may be higher because of the travel (and 2010-2011 felt "cheap" comparied to 2009-2010 because of the event locations and flight costs), but the amount we pay to the club hasn't changed. But, unfortunately, if the cost is too expensive for a family, then it really doesn't matter where the check goes (club or airlines or other) because it's still too expensive.
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Boys & Girls, there could be a 180 college coaches, but what matters is ...
- Is the college coach of the school you are interested present?
- Are you even good enough to play at said schools?
Most of these college coaches are not there to look at SC players.
Just look at the club web sites and the list of the Colleges our best players are going to ... 80% are in SC, most within a few hours drive of where they presently live and or play.
But yet we have parents believe they must travel the globe.
And don't give me this competition excuse ... Play a team a year older, drive to Atlanta, Charlotte or Raleigh where there are plenty of teams available to beat our best. Easily.
Yes, exceptions are available but we are talking about 95% of the players. The 5% that are good enough and willing to travel should play out of state.
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I believe the answer to both questions is yes for the girls on these ECNL teams.
- The girls have no idea what school they might be interested in until they start to have their options open up. I've seen minds change more than once as new options become available. Unless you want their options limited to the schools they and you know, why limit them?
- We've seen many schools from a good radius around SC at all three events we've attended. As an example, here is a partial list we were given of the coaches that were handed team rosters during our games in San Antonio (during the Viking Cup). I'm guessing there are some good options in this list for the players, and there were also a lot of options outside of a 300 mile radius. Also, many of these coaches attended our games because they were there to look at SC players. And yes, there are a few kids interested in Ivy League schools too.
Clemson
Coastal Carolina
College of Charleston
Cornell
Davidson
East Carolina
Florida Gulf Coast University
Florida International University
George Washington
Harvard
James Madison
Marshall
NC State
Pitt
Princeton
Tennessee
UNC - Charlotte
University of Alabama
University of Alabama - Birmingham
University of SC
USC Upstate
Vanderbilt
West Point
Western Carolina
Player on the ECNL teams are getting exposure and potential options. Whether they take advantage of it is dependent on how they play, their own desire and drive and how they follow up.
Remember too that ECNL is still new. The first group of ECNL players who have had a full cycle are more than two years away from graduating. The goal is to improve the level of girls soccer and that will take time.
In the end, I'm going to respectfully disagree with you completely.
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I think Reccos observation is a little more accurate based on the D1 womens soccer websites in SC.It could of changed from when I posted it a month ago, but I doubt it changed very much.
Womens D1 recruiting for SC Colleges 2011 - Stats come from South Carolina D1 college athletic websites. Not sure if they list preferred walk-ons or walk ons.
Number of recruits by state.
Coastal Carolina - Michigan, Kentucky, Cal - 2, Fla - 2, Washington, Arizona, Va. NC
USC - Canada, Colorado, NJ, Va, Pa
,
College of Charleston - Ga, NY, Va, La., NC, SC, Ca
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Winthrop- No Info
Presbyterian - Ga–3
Clemson - No Info
Wofford - Conn,NC,Mass,Ga-2,SC
Citadel - Fla-3
Furman - SC-3, Texas-3,Fla-2,Ga-1
Charleston Southern - TX,NJ-4,SC-3,NC,Sweden
USC Upstate - Ky,SC,Va,NC,Ill,Md,Ga
SC State - Canada, England, Ohio
By State
SC – 9
Georgia – 8
Florida – 7
NC – 5
Pa – 1
NJ – 5
International – 4
Virginia – 4
Cal – 3
Kentucky – 2
Arizona – 1
Michigan – 1
Washington – 1
Colorado – 1
NY – 1
La. – 1
Conn – 1
MD - 1
Out of State Recruits – 47 SC Recruits – 9
SC Recruits by school
Coastal Carolina – 0 of 10
University of South Carolina – 0 of 5
South Carolina State – 0 of 3
Citadel – 0 of 3
Presbyterian – 0 of 3
College of Charleston – 1 of 7
Wofford – 1 of 6
Furman – 3 of 9
Charleston Southern – 3 of 10
USC Upstate – 1 of 7
Clemson – No data
Winthrop – No data
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Sorry for the ignorance, but you're going to have to tell me what these stats tell us about the topic? I don't get the correlation to the value of ECNL, especially given that we are less than two years into the process.
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Reccos posted "most of the college coaches there are not there to look at SC players". The correlation is as you can see by the D1 info SC D1 colleges are not recruiting SC players, what makes you think out of state D1's are going to recruit your SC player from one of the ECNL events. Just for kicks how many of the colleges that you listed above that attended these ECNL events has a player of your club on it. I'm sure their has to be a few. Hope this clears up the correlation thing.
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Quote:
Sorry for the ignorance, but you're going to have to tell me what these stats tell us about the topic? I don't get the correlation to the value of ECNL, especially given that we are less than two years into the process.
JAK you must be one of those globe trotting parents ...
Do you not think that when the RIII PLE was first formed those participants were sold the same song and dance?
Think about it .....
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A) is odp "watered down" because some premier players are now doing ecnl?
B) is ecnl "watered down" because some premier players are doing odp?
C) does it really make a difference?
D) is this all just a further example of how fractured youth soccer is in sc?
I will go for some answers now:
A) If not yet it will be soon, that is the trend. Of course I would not say it was a strong drink to begin with.
B)No, but it might be more because some people are not going to spend that much to play youth soccer when it can be had for much less thus they stay with premier/ODP (I am not saying they are cheap just less).
C) No, see answer to D below to get reason.
D) Yes, we have a mess but it was a mess before ECNL and ECNL is not really related to the mess, it just makes the mess more evident.
Question is why there such a mess and are other states in much better shape or is the grass just looking greener over there thing? Because living where we do we see a lot of NC stuff and it seems they too have problem just not involved enough there to know if they are as bad as SC's.
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Of course I'm one of the "globe trotting parents". And I thought I had hidden it so well too. Good sleuthing:)
I wouldn't give up one second I've spent traveling for soccer with my family. But I do recognize it isn't for every family or child, unlike others who think one size fits all. Is ECNL bad? For some, yes. For others, no. Is R3PL bad? For some, yes. For others, no. Is Rec bad? For some, yes. For others, no.
So I did think about it.
I think R3PL was an improvement over what was before it. I think ECNL is another improvement.
I think there are now even more alternatives for players. If someone never wants to leave SC, they have that option. R3PL is an option if they never want to leave a four state region. ECNL is an option if they want to play in a larger geographic arena. Each offers different levels of competition, travel, costs, exposure and opportunity.
I think if we applied your logic to other aspects of life we'd still be riding horses and mailing letters.
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It appears that after all the SC Club aquisitions/mergers/consolidations and a sincere effort to develop top level youth Club soccer in this state, that the Clubs are failing in developing the players.
They (or some of them) seem more intent on recruiting what they percieve as the best talent in the state or adjoining states to form the best teams, so that they do not get embarrassed in ECNL or Premier League play.
They are not intent on developing the players that reside in close proximenty to their location. If they did develop the local players, the recruiting would not be necessary.
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Quote:
It appears that after all the SC Club aquisitions/mergers/consolidations and a sincere effort to develop top level youth Club soccer in this state, that the Clubs are failing in developing the players.
They (or some of them) seem more intent on recruiting what they percieve as the best talent in the state or adjoining states to form the best teams, so that they do not get embarrassed in ECNL or Premier League play.
They are not intent on developing the players that reside in close proximenty to their location. If they did develop the local players, the recruiting would not be necessary.
I could not agree with your statement more! It's easy to recruit to be great, but it's much tougher to build, mold, and develop higher caliber players. The easy thing to do as coaches is "just move closer to the club."
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Sorry to disappoint you JAK but your posts aren't that important to me ...
You are defending your position to an imaginary attack. I was not questioning the choice or decisions of your daughter. I was challenging the sales pitch of the organizations (clubs) as it pertains to college scholarships and the need to participate in the games/clubs/leagues being discussed!
And as for your last comment, that may not be such a bad thing, given the direction society is headed!!
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No disappointment here. I doubt any of our posts are important to anyone.
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And if these Clubs were truly developing our youth, more would be recruited by in-state schools and more(some) would be getting offers from higher profile schools.
Football, baseball, golf, swimming, lacrosse, track and basketball players in this state are able to get offers from high profile, mid-level and small colleges.
To me, this says there is something wrong with this travel-intense, expensive Club soccer model.
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Cajunkid. Can you provide comparative statistics for players from others states? Drawing that kind of conclusion from one data point is tough.
For example, what percentage of total soccer players (all levels) go to D1, D2 and D3 by state and how does SC compare?
Also, can someone define "developing"? I watch SC girls compete strongly against the top teams around the country, so I'm trying to understand what's percieved as lacking.
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JAK, just look where the players are going to play college soccer from this state. This is NOT a knock on the schools. Every school has it's high and low points.
But very few, are going to any of the TOP 30 ranked D-1 schools.
Why? It is happpening in the other sports. Why not soccer?
You have the #1 College Football recruit staying in state.
So football developed a #1 player in the country, right here in SC.
Key word- DEVELOPED.
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A quick look at some UNC schools Charlotte, Wilmington, and Greensboro) and it seems they run from 25% to 50% rosters filled with NC player. While it is far from scientific research it does seem that in NC schools stay home to get more players than in SC school. Wonder how GA does anyone from other end of SC any take a look?
I think it is fair to say poor recruiting in state by SC colleges is a long term gripe here and it is a fact not a myth. Why? There are likely a multitude of answers but there has to be a reason, afterall you would think with lottery money as an incentive to many players the cost would be lower for SC schools to get instate players. Unless these schools just can not find girls in SC that can compete with the one they get from outside SC?
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Personally, I think this line of reasoning is drawing conclusions from too few data points. Here's another conclusions you could draw: SC kids have not had good enough exposure in the past to be spotted by TOP 30 ranked D-1 schools. I'm not saying that's correct either, but it is another conclusion you draw with only one data point. In fact, I could draw conclusions 360 degrees around a single data point. To clarify, I'm not disagreeing with your comments. I wanted more data to support them. Hopefully Mr. Stats can jump in and let us know: 1. Distribution by-state of the players on the TOP 30 D1 teams 2. Percentage of total soccer players that go to D1, D2 and D3 by state Regarding developing a #1 football recruit here, there are always outliers. But ironically, there's a kid who could have gone anywhere in the country to play and he's playing less than 90 miles from his home. He's hurting the SC player development statistics
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It will be interesting to watch a team like Furman over the next few years as they seem to be making an effort to get SC players. I'm not 100% sure, but I think after next year (2012 graduating class) they will have 5-6 players from SC on the team.
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Quote:
Here's another conclusions you could draw: SC kids have not had good enough exposure in the past to be spotted by TOP 30 ranked D-1 schools.
Wrong. The fact is that SC players are simply not good enough.
JAK you are going to think that I am picking on you, but I am not.
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Regarding developing a #1 football recruit here, there are always outliers. But ironically, there's a kid who could have gone anywhere in the country to play and he's playing less than 90 miles from his home. He's hurting the SC player development statistics
JAK, that's my point. High School Football must be developing it's guys. I don't believe Lattimore and Clowney had to travel to Seattle to get to be top flight football players. Many SC High School football, golf, basketball, track and even lacrosse players are being recruited to "Big Time" college programs in those sports, but NOT (for the most part) soccer, especially girls soccer.
Again, the Clubs are not developing the local talent, to get to the higher level college programs. Every now and then, you will have a Blakely Mattern, a Rae Wilson, a Sarah Jacob, but those are few and far between.
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JAK, that's great. Furman is a great school. I hope those ladies help turn Furman into a power.
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Quote:
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Here's another conclusions you could draw: SC kids have not had good enough exposure in the past to be spotted by TOP 30 ranked D-1 schools.
Wrong. The fact is that SC players are simply not good enough.
JAK you are going to think that I am picking on you, but I am not.
SC players aren't good enough?
Last year USC lost in the SEC final and in the second round of the NCAA tourn. (after beating 19-1-1 UNCG) Kira Campbell (SC) started 7 games. Catie Moore (SC) started every game for Furman as a freshman last year. Enzo Martinez played in every game for UNC, starting 6. That team went 19-3-1 before losing in the 4th round of the tournament. Didn't SC win U-16 regionals and a U-18? national championship in the last few years?
I think I could spend all day finding more examples, but you're going to lose any credibility you have left making statements like "The fact is SC players are simply not good enough."
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Harry, Harry, do you really think I do not know about the players you just listed?
How many kids have participated in RIII PLE and the ECNL over the past 5 years? Lets throw the Academy in there too. Now do the math.
How many went to a big time college and were successful?
Maybe this will help you .. minus a handful, SC players are simply not good enough to play at the highest level.
Furman? Really?
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CajunKid, Lattimore and Clowney are few and far between too. But we have had two real super stars in a row. If it continues, I'll call it a trend:) RECCOS, can you PLEASE give real statistics instead of arbitrtary statements? Minus a handful, perhaps NC playes are simply not good enough to play at the highest level. Minus a handful, perhaps GA players are not good enough to play at the highest level. I don't know the numbers, which is why I'm asking for them. But without numbers, you just threw out a pretty strong insult to all but a handful of SC soccer players. What is the definition of "handful"? 1%? 3%? 5%? What population? Premier level players? All soccer players? Players participating in R3PL and/or ECNL? Until I see numbers and can analyze them, I have to include possibilities other than your assertion that SC players just aren't good enough: 1. Perhaps our percentages are the same as other states and this conversation is irrelevant. 2. Perhaps SC players have not had enough exposure in the past, which is one value-add from ECNL. After all, SC players have made most of the ECNL all-event teams. Finally, off subject, "Furman? Really?"? Next we'll hear some comment like "Akron? Really?" for the boys side. You're just in the mood to insult a lot of people today
Last edited by JAK; 05/04/11 04:40 PM.
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JAK, High School football in South Carolina has been regularly turning out "Big Time" football players for many, many years. I knew I should not use Clowney and Lattimore because someone would say they are unique. They are in the sense that they are Top 1-5 players in the nation. Now, correct me if I am wrong,but there has NEVER been a Top 1-5 in the Nation Soccer Player ever to come out of South Carolina.
Some other football players DEVELOPED here in South Carolina include- William Perry, Michael Dean Perry, Steve Fuller, Ira Hillary, Richard Jackson, JK Jay, Bennie Cunningham, Hakeem Flowers, Thomas Austin, Terence Ashe, and I could go on and on and on....
D1 Players- all and many more.
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Furman Women's Soccer 2010 Record-
Overall Pct. Conf. Pct. Streak Home Away Neutral
9-8-3 .525 4-4-3 .500 Lost 2 5-4-1 4-4-2 0-0
Looks like they need the girls JAK has been talking about.
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Just so we're all clear on this ...
From a purely developmental perspective, there's no doubt South Carolina produces more "big-time" college football, basketball and baseball prospects than it does big-time soccer prospects.
FWIW, the same can be said for California, Texas, Florida, etc.
I would hasten to pint out that, in addition to USC, schools such as CofC, Furman, Coastal, Wofford, etc., play a pretty darn good brand of college soccer, that holds up well in the so-called "big time."
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Funny because I knew I shouldn't have called them outliers.
There are other factors that need to be evaluated:
1. What is the tradition/history of football in the US vs soccer?
2. What is the size of the teams and total number of annual recruits for each sport?
3. What money do HS programs put into football vs other sports?
4. Could better players be produced if there was a "club system" for football?
I don't have answers and, if I did, they might support your theory. But I also don't think it's a complete apples-to-apples comparison.
Hopefully we can all agree that HS soccer isn't a good option for player development while it seems to work, for whatever reason, in football. If we can't agree on that, then we should just stop now:)
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You and I will not see "eye-to-eye" on this issue, which is fine. That's what makes this message board fun, but I don't think the Club's are doing their job developing the local players to be Top, or even just Mid-level D1 players.
And these Clubs have been around plenty long enough to be doing this.
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I am new to this forum as we are considering moving from CO to Greenville summer. I have a U15 here whose club is not in ECNL. She has traveled to 2 big ECNL events as a "Discovery Player" with another club and for what it is worth, she would choose to be in ECNL any day. Her team still goes to what were once considered the best college showcases in CA, TX and LV but there has already been a drop in the level of competition since ECNL began. As far as SC players not going to big time womens programs, could it be that many, if not most, top players prefer to stay closer to home. CO does currently have some incredibly good players, many in the national pool. Some have chosen to play at Santa Clara, Texas A&M, UNLV, UNC, etc but many more, even some of the best, will chose to stay home playing for CU, DU, and other smaller but strong programs. Just my 2 cents worth as I try to get a sense of what club and HS school is like in SC.
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It's not just me that thinks SC players are not good enough. Go and speak with the Head Coaches at Furman.
Furman Men: 24 Players on the roster. 2 Players from SC.
Furman Women: 20 Players on the roster. 2 Players from SC.
And if your excuse for the above is 'lack of exposure' best you have a word with the club less than 30 miles from Furman.
You have access to the internet go do your own research. I have done mine.
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Oh, and if you think being honest is insulting ... we may just have determined the problem with the development of youth soccer players in SC.
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Your child wants to be play big time D1 soccer? You might want to get your kid an apartment in Colorado. Just a thought.
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Sometimes being honest is insulting. Honesty with data to back it up is valuable. Honesty with no data isn't. And sorry, I haven't seen the data that I think supports the comments, so I think they are more insulting than beneficial.
But maybe you have the data. Did I read your post correctly? You've done research and have data that you think supports your comments and yet, you refuse to share it? Is there any good reason for not sharing it?
Has your research taken into account the 5-6 SC girls commited to Furman for 2011 and 2012?
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It's not just me that thinks SC players are not good enough. Go and speak with the Head Coaches at Furman.
Furman Men: 24 Players on the roster. 2 Players from SC.
Furman Women: 20 Players on the roster. 2 Players from SC.
And if your excuse for the above is 'lack of exposure' best you have a word with the club less than 30 miles from Furman.
You have access to the internet go do your own research. I have done mine.
There are six verbal commitments from CESA for 2011 and 2012 to the Furman women's program. Could it be a larger number than in the past because of ECNL? 
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Funny because I knew I shouldn't have called them outliers.
There are other factors that need to be evaluated:
1. What is the tradition/history of football in the US vs soccer?
2. What is the size of the teams and total number of annual recruits for each sport?
3. What money do HS programs put into football vs other sports?
4. Could better players be produced if there was a "club system" for football?
I don't have answers and, if I did, they might support your theory. But I also don't think it's a complete apples-to-apples comparison.
Hopefully we can all agree that HS soccer isn't a good option for player development while it seems to work, for whatever reason, in football. If we can't agree on that, then we should just stop now:)
1. Football is much bigger than soccer. Just go to your local HS games, college games, or watch professional games on ESPN, although ESPN hasn't found the love yet for soccer, only during world cup.
2. Soccer 9-12 scholarships available annually, Football at most Large D1's 65 scholarships annually.
3. Much more in football. My daughter plays HS soccer. We were asked to work the concession stand for HS football games, and glad to do it. A parent asked why do Soccer parents have to work concessions at football games? They were told " where do you think most of your HS soccer money comes from"? Answer HS football.
4. Absolutely not. Football, Basketball, and common US sports are probably atleast 50% minority and some families have income challenges. If a DOC said to one of these families we need your child to fly to Seattle, Vegas, Fla, Texas, even NJ this year. What kind of response do you think the DOC is going to get.
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Could be but I doubt it. Why would a Furman coach take a 5 hour flight to Seattle for an ECNL event to watch a CESA kid when they can drive 20 minutes to MESA to get the same evaluation.
I could just here Furman's AD. "YOU WHAT?
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There are six verbal commitments from CESA for 2011 and 2012 to the Furman women's program. Could it be a larger number than in the past because of ECNL?
Doesn't look like using Furman to support the case was based on good research
Seriously, your comment is a big part of the point I've been trying to make.
First, I haven't seen any good information on how SC stacks up compared to other states. I think it has to be based on percentages because we can't realistically compare raw numbers of recruits to NC, GA, FL, TX or many other states. But even if we had todays information, that doesn't answer the question about whether the things we are doing are helping. Without data now as well as 5 and 10 years ago, it's hard to know what impact you're having.
Second, I don't think we don't know the imapct of ECNL yet. Any information on current college program player mix is using pre-ECNL data. The first group graduating that had any ECNL exposure is 2011. They did not get the full benefit as their first year and first event was after many programs had already been recruiting 2011 players.
2012 graduates had the benefit of some exposure before the real recruiting started, so they had an opportunity to get on some radar screens and the coaches also had opportunities to see them perform against players in other top programs.
2013 graduates will be the first group of players who will have played all of their HS years in ECNL. They will have had exposure through ECNL for two years before the real recruiting begins.
To reiterate, it would be helpful if we had agreement on how to compared ourselves to other states because otherwise, in 4-6 years, we'll just be here having the same discussion with no data to support the comments.
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Just my 2 cents worth as I try to get a sense of what club and HS school is like in SC.
If you are trying to get a sense of what club and HS is like in SC, you have come to the WRONG place! What you'll get here are the opinions of less than a dozen people who are very happy with what soccer has provided their family and you'll get the opinions of less than a dozen people who have what I would call an unhealthy, obsessive grudge because their child quit or wasn't good enough.
Probably the only sense that comes from the conversations on here is that none of this stuff is for everybody. If you were involved in ECNL last year, you know for yourself what it is and what it isn't. For costs, you can read on here that it costs anywhere from $1k to $20k. I'd call the club if I were you and get facts.
As for HS, I think you're lucky. At least 3 of the biggest whiners in the upstate (you probably don't know who you are, but the rest of us do) will have their kids graduate this May so you won't have to deal with that. Otherwise, most of the schools and programs have at least some positives to offer.
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Could be but I doubt it. Why would a Furman coach take a 5 hour flight to Seattle for an ECNL event to watch a CESA kid when they can drive 20 minutes to MESA to get the same evaluation.
For one reason, to see how they perform against top talent from around the country every day for three days.
For another, because they can also see kids from other locations. They have the opportunity to see 1-2,000 players over three days. It's actually a very cost-effective way to spot players.
We've had Clemson, Wofford, College of Charleston, USC, USC Upstate, UNC Charlotte, Greensboro, Furman, Davidson and many other nearby schools watch the kids play at the ECNL events. We simply don't get that same level of interest at an R3PL game at MESA, even through the competition is good.
What impact will it have? I wish we had the data to know
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You know I heard the same pitch you get about the ECNL, about The Premier League. And that pitch was the same about moving from REC to Premier. And that is the same pitch about playing Premier over Challange and Challenge over Classic.
It's always about playing against better talent. Which there is something to be said about that, but through all of this, and all these years, here is what you have-
More travel, more cost and as Cajunkid has said-
Not trememdous results-sending players to good D1 programs.
At least in the past few years, yes some good teams, and CESA wins most State Championships, but they ought to- they've collected most of the best talent in the state.
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"Probably the only sense that comes from the conversations on here is that none of this stuff is for everybody. If you were involved in ECNL last year, you know for yourself what it is and what it isn't. For costs, you can read on here that it costs anywhere from $1k to $20k. I'd call the club if I were you and get facts." quote from HARRY.
Harry, you say "get the facts", "call the club", so you must know- what are the real costs?
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Harry, Harry, do you really think I do not know about the players you just listed?
Furman? Really?
When you said that SC players simply aren't good enough, yes, I assumed you didn't know of the many players that are good enough.
And yes, someone put UNC-Wilmington and UNC-Charlotte into the argument, so I put Furman (and should have put C oc C) into the argument. They're all fine places to go to school and you have to be a very good player to start games at those schools.
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"Probably the only sense that comes from the conversations on here is that none of this stuff is for everybody. If you were involved in ECNL last year, you know for yourself what it is and what it isn't. For costs, you can read on here that it costs anywhere from $1k to $20k. I'd call the club if I were you and get facts." quote from HARRY.
Harry, you say "get the facts", "call the club", so you must know- what are the real costs?
If I'm not mistaken, I answered that on here just a few days ago. Last year's club fee to be on a Premier team was $675. I believe this year is the same. I haven't checked yet. The number for CESA is on their website www.carolinaelitesc.com
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you say "get the facts", "call the club", so you must know-
How you can logically say ("get the facts", "call the club") = "you must know" is confusing to me. I'm guessing proofs in geometry gave you fits
The cost of playing answer is going to depend on many factors. The first is which level. In this case, I'm assuming the highest level possible.
So the costs include
* Training - one of the few costs that goes directly to the club
* Uniform - usually every three years and, if like my family, cleats constantly.
* Team costs, which depend on which leagues you play in, which tournament and events you attend, whether you play friendies and have to pay refs etc.
* Travel, whose factors will include can you drive or do you fly, what is the cost of flying, what is the cost of ground transportation if needed, does the entire family attend or just the player, can you share rooms and transportation with other families, how much do you eat or drink when traveling etc.
* Then you have other unknowns like whether you will win state cup or finish high enough in R3PLE to attend regionals. If so, you have another entire set of costs added for going to that event which, again, will be determined by where it is, how long you keep winning, whether the family attends etc.
I'm guessing I've left out one or two, but I think those would be the big considerations.
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Just my 2 cents worth as I try to get a sense of what club and HS school is like in SC.
If you are trying to get a sense of what club and HS is like in SC, you have come to the WRONG place! What you'll get here are the opinions of less than a dozen people who are very happy with what soccer has provided their family and you'll get the opinions of less than a dozen people who have what I would call an unhealthy, obsessive grudge because their child quit or wasn't good enough.
Probably the only sense that comes from the conversations on here is that none of this stuff is for everybody. If you were involved in ECNL last year, you know for yourself what it is and what it isn't. For costs, you can read on here that it costs anywhere from $1k to $20k. I'd call the club if I were you and get facts.
As for HS, I think you're lucky. At least 3 of the biggest whiners in the upstate (you probably don't know who you are, but the rest of us do) will have their kids graduate this May so you won't have to deal with that. Otherwise, most of the schools and programs have at least some positives to offer.
Oh God, I love it.. If it's the "wrong" place why are you always on this board??? And if the family from CO wants cost info for the Club all they have to do is read you're previous posts. You're the voice of the Club. Also quit attacking families and their kids on this board.
Also quit you're lying about a handful of disgruntled parents. You had over 48 paying club members in the girls u17's with 3 teams, then when they became u18 last year you were scrambling to make it work and had 1 team with maybe 20 players, do you really think there were only a handfull of upset players and parents, if you think that you're arrogance is off the charts and you're not listening to your customer base.
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Oh God, I love it.. If it's the "wrong" place why are you always on this board??? And if the family from CO wants cost info for the Club all they have to do is read you're previous posts. You're the voice of the Club. Also quit attacking families and their kids on this board.
Also quit you're lying about a handful of disgruntled parents. You had over 48 paying club members in the girls u17's with 3 teams, then when they became u18 last year you were scrambling to make it work and had 1 team with maybe 20 players, do you really think there were only a handfull of upset players and parents, if you think that you're arrogance is off the charts and you're not listening to your customer base.
I've made 137 posts since 2/25/07 (more than 4 years)
You've made 205 since 6/30/10 (less than 1 year)
Who's "always on this board"?
You certainly have one version of the 92 age group's story. Another view point might say that some players went to tryouts, went to the parent informational meeting, listened, committed, then quit. Thus making the word 'scramble' fairly appropriate but not exactly accurate. Meanwhile, the players that stayed had a successful Fall. All that wanted to play in college are committed to playing next year. They won state cup and will play in regionals. (at least those that don't break their commitment)
When did I attack families and their kids? Who have I mentioned?
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By the way, my customer base is not related to soccer.
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If it's the "wrong" place why are you always on this board???
He didn't say it was the wrong place to be if you want to have fun.
He said it was the wrong place to be if you want to learn about SC club and HS soccer.
It's definitely the place to be if you want to be amused and confused.
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I see on the CESA website that they have 19 girls committed for 2011 and 2012. Does anyone know how many girls have committed from the other big SC clubs? Seems that would be a good way to tell if ECNL pays dividends since CESA is the only ECNL club in SC.
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"If you are trying to get a sense of what club and HS is like in SC, you have come to the WRONG place! What you'll get here are the opinions of less than a dozen people who are very happy with what soccer has provided their family and you'll get the opinions of less than a dozen people who have what I would call an unhealthy, obsessive grudge because their child quit or wasn't good enough." QUOTE FROM HARRY
Harry- you always go down the path of "the kid quit or was not good enough".
This is such a crock. CESA lost some 30 players last year off Challenge and Premier at rising U18 and a few from U17.
No, these were not- NOT GOOD ENOUGH. These players had played for many years at CESA, so all of a sudden, they are not "good enough"? Don't insult these fine ladies and their families!
Many decided to seek other options because they and their families were tired of having CESA shove it down their throats as to what they would do and how they would do it.
Quite frankly, I know a number of these folks and they were sick of the arrogance.
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Oh God, I love it.. If it's the "wrong" place why are you always on this board??? And if the family from CO wants cost info for the Club all they have to do is read you're previous posts. You're the voice of the Club. Also quit attacking families and their kids on this board.
Also quit you're lying about a handful of disgruntled parents. You had over 48 paying club members in the girls u17's with 3 teams, then when they became u18 last year you were scrambling to make it work and had 1 team with maybe 20 players, do you really think there were only a handfull of upset players and parents, if you think that you're arrogance is off the charts and you're not listening to your customer base.
I've made 137 posts since 2/25/07 (more than 4 years)
You've made 205 since 6/30/10 (less than 1 year)
Who's "always on this board"?
You certainly have one version of the 92 age group's story. Another view point might say that some players went to tryouts, went to the parent informational meeting, listened, committed, then quit. Thus making the word 'scramble' fairly appropriate but not exactly accurate. Meanwhile, the players that stayed had a successful Fall. All that wanted to play in college are committed to playing next year. They won state cup and will play in regionals. (at least those that don't break their commitment)
When did I attack families and their kids? Who have I mentioned?
They had a succesful fall? The 92's finished in 25th place of 26 teams in the ECNL B division. They didn't win a game in ECNL. Is that your definition of success? Raise the bar for yourself a little bit. If I am a college coach attending one of these events I'm not going to waste my time watching the 25th ranked team in the B division(51 out of 52 including the A division). I'm going to go watch the teams in the A division.
25. CESA Premier ECNL U18 0.33 3 9 W-0 T-3 L-6 GF-7 GA-20
GD-13
I'm familiar with the 92's. I don't know of any that was on the team that committed to the fall season, then quit. The 5 that I know that quit, quit before tryouts.
And we both post on this board, no problem with that. This is a great forum for parents to get both sides of a story. I'm sure a club director doesn't want parents on it though, it exposes to much dirty laundry.
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You are not mistaken, sort of. Yes you did provide that number but the question asked was about ECNL fees. The statements and conservation was/were about ECNL not Premier costs. Oh and I have not seen anyone low ball ECNL costs at $1000 but if you can provide a quote I will believe it, well I have not seen $20K either so I guess a qoute will be needed to believe that one too.
Now $675 sounds good for Premier but it would cost another gizillion in gas for me so I guess thats out. (ok gizillion may be high but you get the idea) Still $675 for a whole season of Premier play?? is that everyting or are the team fees and coach fees ect..?
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We've had Clemson, Wofford, College of Charleston, USC, USC Upstate, UNC Charlotte, Greensboro, Furman, Davidson and many other nearby schools watch the kids play at the ECNL events. We simply don't get that same level of interest at an R3PL game at MESA, even through the competition is good.
How many college coaches did you have at the ECNL league games in Atlanta and at MeSA? Probably about as many as you would have at R3PLE league games, and probably about as many as you will have at those ECNL conference league games next Fall. I'm sure the colleges you listed took in as many non-ECNL games at those tournaments where ECNL was playing as they did ECNL games.
Do you think the coaches left Florida after the ECNL event in Sanford and skipped recruiting at Disney?
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Why would a coach even go to Fl, there is no ECNL there, exceopt for the ECNL events so I guess we will see a drop off in FL players signing outside of FL  . Of course that may be FL's secert plan to keep all that good talent home!
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If I am a college coach attending one of these events I'm not going to waste my time watching the 25th ranked team in the B division(51 out of 52 including the A division). I'm going to go watch the teams in the A division.
At the ECNL events associated with tournaments the CESA '92 Girls' games were attended by an average of about 20 college coaches per game, highest number attending one game about 37. (Number of college coaches attending CESA 92 Girls' ECNL league games in Atlanta... 1. At least 1 college coach at every R3PLE game this past Fall with highest one league game number 6. About 10 college coaches in attendance semi-final game SCYSA state cup. All players now committed, except one with an offer waiting a decision.)
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Why would a coach even go to Fl, there is no ECNL there, exceopt for the ECNL events so I guess we will see a drop off in FL players signing outside of FL . Of course that may be FL's secert plan to keep all that good talent home!
With Dallas Texans joining ECNL I guess that technically puts an ECNL club in Florida. "Dallas Texans Florida" is what was formerly the Pensacola Futbol Club. And, next Fall they are expanding to create a second geographic division in the Florida club "Dallas Texans Florida Division East".
Like the Texans couldn't find enough players in Texas, they had to create a pipeline out of Florida.
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I see on the CESA website that they have 19 girls committed for 2011 and 2012. Does anyone know how many girls have committed from the other big SC clubs? Seems that would be a good way to tell if ECNL pays dividends since CESA is the only ECNL club in SC.
They didn't play for SC clubs, but don't forget to add in the two players from Hilton Head area, one going to play at Wake Forest and the other at Harvard. They were multiyear members of the SC '93 ODP team.
CESA girls teams for the past few years have had all or near all players graduating with committments to college programs. The question will become whether or not the percentage of committments (hard to know about offers) to D1 goes up as the members of the ECNL teams graduate. I'd say the first ECNL group out, the '92 team, has about the same mix of D1/2/3 as previous classes. Haven't looked at the actual breakdown by class.
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R3PL is an option if they never want to leave a four state region. ECNL is an option if they want to play in a larger geographic arena.
Through R3PL a team has the opportunity to qualify for USYSA National league that takes them outside the 4 state area. They just have to prove as a team that they're capable of playing at a national level before they are accepted to play in that league, which isn't the case with ECNL.
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They had a succesful fall? The 92's finished in 25th place of 26 teams in the ECNL B division. They didn't win a game in ECNL. Is that your definition of success? Raise the bar for yourself a little bit. If I am a college coach attending one of these events I'm not going to waste my time watching the 25th ranked team in the B division(51 out of 52 including the A division). I'm going to go watch the teams in the A division.
25. CESA Premier ECNL U18 0.33 3 9 W-0 T-3 L-6 GF-7 GA-20
GD-13
I'm familiar with the 92's. I don't know of any that was on the team that committed to the fall season, then quit. The 5 that I know that quit, quit before tryouts.
And we both post on this board, no problem with that. This is a great forum for parents to get both sides of a story. I'm sure a club director doesn't want parents on it though, it exposes to much dirty laundry.
Yes, a successful Fall. So many times I've heard people on here complain that it's all about winning. Now, I'm suggesting that a group of kids playing competitively through the fall, committing to play next year, and winning state cup and going to regionals a successful year. Are you saying that because they didn't win more games, they weren't successful?
Yes, nothing wrong with posting on the board but I'm not the one who had a problem with people 'always on here'. I just pointed out that I'm not in the club forum nearly as much as some people whose daughters don't play club anymore.
I'm still waiting to hear which 'families and kids' I've been 'attacking'. Any help with that?
I guess that since there were several very good players on the 92s, it's a good thing that you aren't a college coach. Many thought it was a good idea to go watch them play.
I actually talked to 3 of the players that quit last year. All 3 said that they were leaving because they were not going to make the premier team. I don't have a problem with that, other than to say that they left because they weren't good enough. They had been with CESA for years and in my opinion were good players, good challenge level players. Nothing wrong with that, I just don't see how you can blame CESA for situations like that.
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Still $675 for a whole season of Premier play?? is that everyting or are the team fees and coach fees ect..?
$675 was the amount that went to CESA. Other expenses were personal travel and team entry fees to FL and TX and NC events divided amongst everyone on the roster. (none of which went to the club) Coaches travel expenses were paid by the club, not the team.
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Sounds like a decent price for that level of play (Premier). How does it compare to ECNL cost?
BTW by decent I mean good value.
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Harry, maybe you need to poll all 30 or so who decided not to play for CESA at the U18 level.
Some went and played for another Club. One did not play Club at all and has received an offer to play in college.
So I guess she was not good enough to make that team. She has been a Premier starter for 4 years.
Of course you can't leave out all the Challenge players at that age group who left. This resulted in CESA not even fielding a U-18 Challenge team, and of course they forced this age group to play in 3 leagues. This action resulted in some leaving due to the excessive travel. Some were dissatisified with the coach and had "had enough". Some went and played for another Club, and even they received college offers.
For those that remained, who opted to choose which events they would play in or not, as instructed by CESA prior to the start of the season, when they did, they would receive an e mail from one of their coaches "blasting their lack of committment".
Yes, I guess you could call it successful, for CESA.
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Harry, maybe you need to poll all 30 or so who decided not to play for CESA at the U18 level.
Some went and played for another Club. One did not play Club at all and has received an offer to play in college.
So I guess she was not good enough to make that team. She has been a Premier starter for 4 years.
Of course you can't leave out all the Challenge players at that age group who left. This resulted in CESA not even fielding a U-18 Challenge team, and of course they forced this age group to play in 3 leagues. This action resulted in some leaving due to the excessive travel. Some were dissatisified with the coach and had "had enough". Some went and played for another Club, and even they received college offers.
For those that remained, who opted to choose which events they would play in or not, as instructed by CESA prior to the start of the season, when they did, they would receive an e mail from one of their coaches "blasting their lack of committment".
Yes, I guess you could call it successful, for CESA.
Nobody said that GB wasnt' good enough to play. Nobody said that everybody that didn't play wasn't good enough. I only said that some left because they weren't good enough.
I still love the 'forced' to play in 3 leagues. Do we really have to go back and dig up all the other threads and posts where we showed the 92s playing less games in 5 months than they are playing in 3 months of high school? Is it ok if I say that the HS kids played in the preseason, the conference, the nonconference and the post season; and if I call all of those leagues, can I say that these kids are being forced to play in 4 leagues? It's such a tired argument.
I honestly don't know where some of the 92s went and what they were offered. I do know this, if you told me where their offers came from, I wouldn't belittle those schools as others on this forum have. Do you remember "where on Earth is Washington and Lee?" and "Furman? Really?" I only know of the ones I talked to. 'I know RS is not going to pick me, so I'm going to play at another club.' It didn't make a whole lot of sense to me but, it's perfectly ok. I know there are others who simply didn't play club at all because they were seniors and wanted to do other things. Girls are funny like that at 17 and 18 years old aren't they?
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So..How is ODP going this year?
Things should be wrapping up with camp in July..
Was the season successful or was it business as usual?
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They had a succesful fall? The 92's finished in 25th place of 26 teams in the ECNL B division. They didn't win a game in ECNL. Is that your definition of success? Raise the bar for yourself a little bit. If I am a college coach attending one of these events I'm not going to waste my time watching the 25th ranked team in the B division(51 out of 52 including the A division). I'm going to go watch the teams in the A division.
Well since you say you don't know to much about the 92's I have to beleive you because all 5 premier players that left the CESA premier team we're begged to stay. I guess I should of recorded my phone conversations with the coach to prove you're misguided statements.
25. CESA Premier ECNL U18 0.33 3 9 W-0 T-3 L-6 GF-7 GA-20
GD-13
I'm familiar with the 92's. I don't know of any that was on the team that committed to the fall season, then quit. The 5 that I know that quit, quit before tryouts.
And we both post on this board, no problem with that. This is a great forum for parents to get both sides of a story. I'm sure a club director doesn't want parents on it though, it exposes to much dirty laundry.
Yes, a successful Fall. So many times I've heard people on here complain that it's all about winning. Now, I'm suggesting that a group of kids playing competitively through the fall, committing to play next year, and winning state cup and going to regionals a successful year. Are you saying that because they didn't win more games, they weren't successful?
Yes, nothing wrong with posting on the board but I'm not the one who had a problem with people 'always on here'. I just pointed out that I'm not in the club forum nearly as much as some people whose daughters don't play club anymore.
I'm still waiting to hear which 'families and kids' I've been 'attacking'. Any help with that?
I guess that since there were several very good players on the 92s, it's a good thing that you aren't a college coach. Many thought it was a good idea to go watch them play.
I actually talked to 3 of the players that quit last year. All 3 said that they were leaving because they were not going to make the premier team. I don't have a problem with that, other than to say that they left because they weren't good enough. They had been with CESA for years and in my opinion were good players, good challenge level players. Nothing wrong with that, I just don't see how you can blame CESA for situations like that.
You talked to 3 premier team players? And they said they wouldn't make the premier team?. I know all 5 that quit. I'll ask their parents today if their kid told you that. Your just a club parent? Why would a premier player just randomely tell another club parent that information? All 5 premier players that left the 92 premier team were begged to stay. I guess I should of recorded the phone conversation i had with the coach for your approval. I guess if your just another parent and not a club employee don't comment on something you obviously know nothing about. You seem to know alot about GB! Where is GB's family going on vacation this year????
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again...how was ODP this season?
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Oh yeah, I forgot we were supposed to be talking about ECNL and ODP and not one particular club.
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Quote:
again...how was ODP this season?
IMO....same as usual. SCYSA's ODP program is lame at best and this year was complete chaos. Poor leadership and no direction.
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I talked to 3 players. Never said premier. I don't know a whole lot about GB. Just said she's a good player.
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IMO....same as usual. SCYSA's ODP program is lame at best and this year was complete chaos. Poor leadership and no direction.
It was worse this year than in previous years, if possible. ODP has become irrelevant in SC and a waste of money. Lots of grumblings about not going to/paying for camp this year.
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I can summarize ODP in three short sentences:
It's not "Olympic."
There's no "Development."
And it ain't a "Program."
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Everyone probably now knows I like data Reading where this thread has gone, it would be interesting to know how many of the anti-ECNL and/or anti-CESA voices were related to the 92s team being thrown about. That certainly seems to be a common theme in the last few pages, but it might just be coincidence. It does seem that fielding a premier level U-18 team must be difficult. Whether already committed, senioritis, don't want to play in college or something else, the motivation level has to drop unless the player simply lives, eats and breathes the sport.
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Quote:
I can summarize ODP in three short sentences:
It's not "Olympic."
There's no "Development."
And it ain't a "Program."
That was our experience as well.
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Oh no Harry, you are right. They were not FORCED.
The Coaches came in and politely asked, "Would any of you like to play in 3 Leagues?"
"Would it be OK if we play in 3 Leagues?"
"We promise you want have to do but whatever it is you want".
"And we'll get some sponsors to underwrite the cost, err, no, that's what we said 2 years ago that never came to fruition, err, ahh, errr..."
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Last year teams involved in ecnl did not pay training fees or coaches expenses at CESA- the club took care of that.
This year parents did pay training fees but did not pay for coaches expenses- the club took care of those.
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The Club took care of that????
Try, every other paying parent took care of that!!!
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Bomber,
The members of last years CESA U17 girls Premier team did not pay training fees or coaches expenses for ECNL events.
The members of the 92 CESA girls team did not pay coaches expenses for ECNL events this year.
The same is true for every other girls team that played in ECNL at CESA. In addition, CESA boys teams in ASL did not pay coaches expenses.
Since you seem to know that every paying parent took care of that can you share how this was done. Was money siphoned off a classic team, a challenge team, a rec team? Or did CESA charge every member a surcharge to offset the money lost due to participation to those events? Was money diverted from tryout monies collected? Or, as has been postulated previously, did CESA get those kickbacks from hotels.
You seem to be on the inside since you know the machinations of CESA. I'm a little confused though. For someone who knows the innerworkings of the club, you sure do ask a lot of questions and speculative comments, so I'm waiting for some real clarity.
Last edited by Loc Dog; 05/05/11 05:24 PM.
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Well someone had to pay those fees.
Did they just print some money off their printing press?
Who do you think covered it?
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Loc Dog, let me make one thing clear-
Anything I have posted on this board regarding CESA, I've said directly to the 2 Directors.
So my statements are based on personal experience and they should know where I stand.
Is that "clarity" enough?
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Bomber,
Yes. It is crystal clear. You can't answer my question where the money comes from. Since you've had all these conversations with the two directors, you must be conversant with them. Why don't you just hit them on speed dial and ask them and then come back and give the board the answer. We'll be waiting?
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You know I could do that, but for extreme accuracy, I will let them post it.
I'm sure they read this forum, so they can just take care of it.
That way, no one can (including you) can say the information is not accurate.
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Still waiting for this thread to swing back to ECNL vs. ODP comparison, but as to this last tangent... one possible source for siphoning would be the mandatory CAP fee for all this past year. Let's see, $100 per player (Premier or Challenge), conservative estimate of 100 players (don't know actual count or how many were on "scholarship"), that's $10,000 to cover the cost of the club's CAP program. My older daughter played one season of CAP, the younger none. I didn't agree with the mandatory CAP fee, but it was paid. $10,000 for CAP?
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Quote:
The Club took care of that????
Try, every other paying parent took care of that!!!
Oh good lord. It's getting overly emotional now.
The club didn't charge the ecnl players/parents. Better? From the perspective of the ecnl players/parents, the club took care of it.
There are costs related to running programs, whether club, community or high school and somehow those costs do have to be covered. It could be through revenue (dues, fees, taxes etc) or cutting some costs is another way. In fact, someone already said the HS Football covers costs of all the other sports. That doesn't seem to have anyone upset.
But if you want to start getting upset about the costs of soccer when measured in terms of what other people might pay, including every taxpayer from whom $0.01 or more might go towards soccer field maintenance etc, go for it.
But I repeat, it's getting overly emotional now.
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DeltaDog. This is for you! Your waiting has ended ECNL over ODP any day. But I do think someone earlier had a very valid point and, in all this subsequent venom, it was probably missed. The exposure from the ECNL showcase games has been great. But I agree with the poster that there is a real possibility and risk that the regional ECNL games will have the same attendance as an R3PL game. The only way I see it could be different is if the ECNL does a better job of letting colleges in the area know about the games. So as the ECNL expands, I think it is taking on the risk of providing less value, real or perceived. Hopefully they recognize this and have taken steps to address it, but I have no information would lead me to believe that is or is not the case.
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Quote:
Still waiting for this thread to swing back to ECNL vs. ODP comparison, but as to this last tangent... one possible source for siphoning would be the mandatory CAP fee for all this past year. Let's see, $100 per player (Premier or Challenge), conservative estimate of 100 players (don't know actual count or how many were on "scholarship"), that's $10,000 to cover the cost of the club's CAP program. My older daughter played one season of CAP, the younger none. I didn't agree with the mandatory CAP fee, but it was paid. $10,000 for CAP?
Thank you Dawg, great point. As I recall, and I'm sure if I am wrong I will be corrected, CAP was a program initially offerred as an option for CESA folks.
It must not have had too many takers, so it was repackaged and FORCED on everybody. You had NO CHOICE, just take it and pay it!!!
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I honesty don't remember how CAP was incorporated.
Anyone else recall?
Did the club fees go up $100 when CAP was added as part of the program?
or
Did we actually write a check for CAP?
or
Was it just included as part of the fees with no increase?
or
Something else?
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Has anyone discussed the ODP program in relation to other states? While we here in SC have a dysfunctional/troubled/average program (you circle the one you like) other states programs seem to be in better shape, well they beat us when we play. Are some states going to maintain functioning ODP and regional premier programs (as we all know many states bring a lot more teams and players to the table than SC. If these program remain viable and ECNL costs climb (success in soccer always leads to higher prices, think it might be an economic law or something) will not some good players still be found in them, and thus will not coaches still be looking there? (maybe not in SC but else where, heck even SC coaches do not look in SC now )
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ecnl is a better option than ODP..No doubt about it..But only one club offers ecnl play so the numbers would be more limited than ODP..
As far as costs and who pays it at CESA...There I said it..Maybe the coaches ate some of that money..Maybe college combine money was used..Does it matter? Maybe the classic parents paid for it..It's not up to us as to where they spend the money..
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Quote:
I honesty don't remember how CAP was incorporated.
Anyone else recall?
Did the club fees go up $100 when CAP was added as part of the program?
or
Did we actually write a check for CAP?
or
Was it just included as part of the fees with no increase?
or
Something else?
I don't ever remember paying $100 for CAP. I thought it was free to CESA players and non-CESA players paid a fee of $100. I do know I've never written a seperate check for the CAP program. I'm not sure where the part of it being mandatory for all premier/challenge players came from.
Earlier someone mentioned that they worked in the concession stand during football season to earn money for soccer. So I can imagine a football parent buying a Snickers bar for $1.00. (an outrageous price for a Snickers in my opinion) Then the football parent finds out that their money didn't go to the football team, but to the soccer team. What's the rationale for this? That the school athletic department is one big entity? That someone in charge has the audacity to take revenue and decide where to spend it? I know the comparison is a little out of scale.
In the CAP scenario, if I paid $100 for the CAP program I'd probably just go play in the 6-8 games against college teams and call it a real bargain. If it was part of my club fee (which I think it was) I would be even a little happier playing in those games.
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Back to ECNL vs. ODP. I like the idea of ECNL better because there are more games involved. In our current ODP structure, kids pay money to their club. Then they pay more money to ODP so that they can play in 2-3 subregional games. Then pay more money to go to region camp. They get exposure along the way, but the real value comes if you actually make the regional team. In ECNL, kids pay money to the club and will play in 30 high level games with lots of exposure simply by playing.
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Do not think we are looking at an ECNL or ODP thing. They cannot really be compared, structure is too different.
IMHO the question is about if ECNL will weaken ODP (it will) or if some top level players will choose R3 and ODP over ECNL (they will due to cost and other reasons some of which I say below).
I think a fair look at ECNL requires the possibility that on the path they are headed girls will be doing only ECNL in the near future. No ODP, no HS if it conflicts with ECNL and with year round games and training how can it not. I know as of right now they are saying they do not want to interfere with HS but at some point something will have to give! My guess the guys getting $5000 of your money and "getting" your player college exposure for the scholarship or offers to play in college will have your ear. Look at it this way we know now that kids skip HS tournaments for high level club events imagine when they are told you need to just not play HS soccer to focus on our club season.
If your daughter was on a team trying to get exposure to college coaches and you had a really good player or two hurt before a big game against another top ECNL team (you know one where you know many college coaches will be at) how are you/team/coach going to feel. Soccer is very much a chemistry sport, a team with less skill/talent can beat a slightly better team if they have better team chemistry, you just lost your chemistry and now your player will not shine her best because the "right" teammate is not out there with her that day.
Another way of looking at it would be the coaches, how many of the ECNL coaches are also HS coaches? I believe in the Charlotte ECNL program all the coaches only coach at the club level or higher (college), anyone know if CESA is same? These coaches and clubs first interest is themselves (which means their members and staff not bashing anyone here) and so HS soccer is not a concern for them they are trying to improve players, which we can find on this board over and over again HS soccer does not do, actually hurts them in the opinion of some. So if you accept those premises then you can see that HS soccer will soon be coming off the radar of the elite players because the system is moving that way.
I think there is a good chance we will eventually have a two tier system of ECNL or R3/Premier/ODP/HS players for a time frame then if ECNL becomes the obvious place to get college offers we will see it grow down to younger ages because that is where you need to start developing skills to become a ECNL player.
Last edited by The Chief; 05/06/11 02:32 AM.
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Chief,
I thought that was a well thought out post.
I do want to clarify one thing. No one gets $5,000. Some goes to the club, some to hotels, some to gas stations, some to tournaments etc.
Intestingly, for my family, the past two years of ECNL has not really cost much more than previous years. We replaced going to one set of tournaments with ECNL events. For several of the more distant ECNL events that required air travel, we were not always able to attend with our daughter. But when you compare the costs from 3-4 years ago to the last two years, it really hasn't been a lot more for us.
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Thanks, on the money thing I am not saying the clubs are getting rich on this, is more of a comment on the general cost and from what I have heard the overall, as in cost to parents, numbers for ECNL are higher than what was there before. Of course we have such a short time and small sample to compare it to that I think it may take a few years for the cost thing to bear out what the actual costs are on average. I think some of the club bashing that goes on about cost is silly, do not like the cost; go somewhere else; or get involved and change things. I HATE(not sure if that is a strong enough word!)  not seeing my girl play and avoid it whenever possible, but I guess it is about them and not our need to see them  . Maybe some of the numbers I have heard included parents cost to not miss events, since before they would have gone to most events.
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Quote:
DeltaDog. This is for you! Your waiting has ended
ECNL over ODP any day. But I do think someone earlier had a very valid point and, in all this subsequent venom, it was probably missed.
The exposure from the ECNL showcase games has been great. But I agree with the poster that there is a real possibility and risk that the regional ECNL games will have the same attendance as an R3PL game. The only way I see it could be different is if the ECNL does a better job of letting colleges in the area know about the games.
So as the ECNL expands, I think it is taking on the risk of providing less value, real or perceived. Hopefully they recognize this and have taken steps to address it, but I have no information would lead me to believe that is or is not the case.
I don't see a CESA/CASL ECNL league game attracting more coaches than a CESA/CASL R3PLE league game. As ECNL continues it's expansion of teams and development as an organization it will became a coin toss argument as to which league offers greater exposure. If it's exposure you're looking to get from league play. College coaches will come to league games in the Fall, but only when those attendances do not conflict with their own college league schedules.
ECNL was very smart to hitch it's league games the last couple of years to existing major tournaments that already had long lists of college coaches already attending, a continuation of what they were doing as the Red Bull League. However, CESA teams could have, probably should have, been attending tournaments like CASL, Disney and PDA, etc. anyway. Perhaps it was good that ECNL required the participation at CASL and got the teams back in Raleigh, but the teams could have been enjoying the same level of exposure and competition at those events without an ECNL logo on their jerseys. After about a 6 year absence for my daughter, her u-18 team played CASL Shootout (well, ECNL league games during the tournament), and after the last game she looked around and said, "We should have been coming here all along".
My point, so far, is that as ECNL continues to expand and evolve you will end up with regional or conference games providing similar exposure and level of competition as the teams are already realizing in R3PLE. And, as most of what are called the ECNL "events" are actually existing tournaments offering the same levels of exposure and competition to those not in ECNL you're not gaining any more access than you already had. So, take your pick between organizations.
Now, ECNL vs. ODP is really a comparison of two different types of beasts, as is ECNL vs. R3PL. Unless, you're actually asking about the conflict for some players between the ECNL games and Region ODP Camp both in July (kind of a ECNL vs. Viking Cup debate). The decision the players will eventually be making will be whether they participate in leagues/programs put forth by ECNL (evolving sub-regional level play, national "events" including a national championship, and id2 player identification) or by USYSA (SCYSA state leagues/championships, R3PL sub-regional play, a national league for those that qualify, regional and national championships and ODP player identification).
But, let's take the first... 3 ECNL games in July vs. Region ODP camp. Strictly on perceived value of experience over the last 6 years (no dropping the "committment" card to muddy the comparison at this point), Region ODP camp hands down. Of course, without listing all the reasons for that decision, unlike others here I don't expect the state ODP programs to provide the player development the players should already be getting through their local clubs. Don't get me wrong, I love it when it happens but I don't expect it to the extent some here seem to.
At the heart of ODP it is a series of tryouts/identification at the state, regional and national levels that offers players, beginning at the grass roots level, the opportunity to essentially tryout for the national team. The team that plays in the Olympics. While all players don't make the state teams, fewer make the region teams and even fewer the national, I believe there are benefits including those considered "added value" at all levels that a player is capable of achieving.
ECNL also has a player identification program (or an association with such a program), and it is id2. It seems to be a good program for what it intends to do, but it is a program at the national level only and does not include opportunities for recognition of those players capable of participating in state and region level pools and teams. And, the last time I checked the oldest age group included in the id program is 16 years. 3 ECNL games or id2 vs. ODP... we'd be back in Alabama again if hadn't just aged out.
So, I believe the real comparison should be between ECNL and all the opportunities it provides vs. USYSA and all the opportunities provided there. Given that comparison I'd choose USYSA and continue to take advantage of what I see as a greater variety of opportunities at a wider variety of playing levels for both the teams and the individuals involved. Especially the opportunity to participate in ODP. Added value impact on recruiting... put a "Member Region III ODP Team" stamp of college coaches' approval on the profile your daughter sends out and see how many schools come knocking on your door with offers in some cases very nearly sight unseen. There is no state or region level identification/participation offered by ECNL through id2 that you can add to your profile.
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You guys are going to have to stop making well thought out and reasonable posts or no one will ever come to this message board:)
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I agree with DeltaDog except on one point. My daughter actually got development out of ODP but she was in a different age group then his and had a consistent coach for several years. It was a great experience until the last year when a lot of girls didn't try out and the skill level dropped off. ODP offered a chance for exposure to another coaching style and by college coaches. Outside of the last year of ODP, the "skill" level of the team was higher than her club team that played in the premier league and ECNL. Also since ODP goes on a calendar year age group, and ECNL teams go on July to June age group, the player gets to play with some different highly skilled players which help develop the player on how to be a more versatile team mate. I hope they can continue to coexist. It seems ECNL will become more in conflict with the premier league. With the regional games ECNL is forming, I'm not clear what the difference will be except it takes out the "state" , and regional recognition that premier league offered - maybe that is reason enough to couple ECNL with ODP. ODP just being a state, regional and national level "all star" events with specialized camps done by college coaches.
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With reference to comparing ODP programs across states, I can only refer to our region for the previous 3 years, ending in 2010, in a specific age group.
From what I could see, our teams were more than competitive with Oklahoma, Mississippi and (this past year anyway) Texas. We were reasonably competitive with North Carolina, Tennessee and Virginia. We were less than competitive with Florida and Georgia.
In my estimation, we were not particularly well-coached/trained in 2009, and poorly coached in 2010. Then again, Oklahoma's team was dismal, and the Texas teams were surprisingly bad (supposedly attributable to Academy defections).
From a purely neighborly perspective, in 3 actual matches vs. NC, we were 1-1-1. Our head coach was not at NEITHER the win nor the loss.
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Again, at it's heart ODP is a player identification program (with other added values). If you begin to look at it as such, whether or not the SC team can beat the NC team becomes irrelevant. Whether or not a player identified at the state level as one of the top players at that state's evaluations can be identified at the region tryouts/evaluations as having the current tools or potential to be selected to play at that level is relevant.
Some have been waiting a long time for the changes they made at the region camps last year. The state teams played one opening game as state teams and then the players were scrambled for games and training sessions for the rest of the camp. Maybe a state only has a few players with the potential to play at the region level (that's a selection of about 25-35 players from 12 states), and the scrambling allows the region coaches the opportunity to evaluate those few mixed in with players from the other states. Given the example scwame presented, even though everyone from previous years didn't participate the last year, as long as that player goes to the region camp she will be evaluated individually for her potential to participate at the regional level taking her to the next level of evaluations at the national level.
I, personally, thought the training at Region Camp was excellent, but again I look at those sessions not so much as a part of player development but as a part of player evaluation... "we know the kid has the talent but where are the skills? Hmmm, during these sessions we see she also has the intelligence, desire and work ethic to improve dramatically if we can keep her around. She may even have the potential to become a greater prospect for the National Team than that other player over there who has plenty of skills already, but not the desire or work ethic we're looking for at the next level."
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Joined: Jan 2006
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True..Whether they win or lose should not matter..But winning does makes coaches take a closer look..My dismay is what happens between January and May..Little to nothing based on who is coaching.All the coaches should be following a uniformed practice and develpoment plan..Not I'll coach them my way..There should be standards and ways of measuring the development..
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 855
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 855 |
Thats a good point ODP is really all aout selection at least at the 1st levels. You can not really develop players in a week or two, oh you can teach them a skill or a formation, maybe a technique that they can then take home and work on. Development takes regular practice with reenforcement of good practices and correction of bad ones. You can not get that with once a month and a week a year, well not much of it. Take the fact that most of these players are well beyond basic skills and you have the need to push tactics and conditioning which IMHO also takes consistant regular training and polishing. This is where I think that ECNL can in the long run supplant ODP.
Give a good coach 3 times a week (all year) with a group of mostly equally skilled players and development will happen. At some point a gril whp was better but only getting sparadoic ODP sessions will get past by a one weaker player who spend more time training with better players and "developing".
Lastly add in the team chemistry that is such a huge factor in soccer, maybe more so than most any other youth sport, and we will see playing style from ECNL team that cobbled together team will struggle to match. I have seen teams that were less talented (fewer star players, IMHO) beat teams with more skilled players who did not have good chemistry. When a good player knows exactly what 4-5 of her teammates will do every time and then executes you get some great play.
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558
Goal
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Goal
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 558 |
From a player development perspective, my dismay would be what happens between September and January in terms of training and what happens year round in the backyard in terms of practice. I can't speak for my daughters, but if I really wanted to be a part of a Region III or National Pool/Team, I'm not going to let an off year lame selection of a state level coach determine what I bring as a player to those individual tryouts/evaluations in July.
Scrambling the players at the camp means everyone gets equal game time in front of the coaches, now if a coach wants to watch some ball control wizard from Texas he also will be watching my daughter right next to her as a teammate. To get the same opportunity at the 3 ECNL games (back to ECNL vs. ODP), for 2 of the games let my daughter play with the #1 ranked ECNL team in front of many coaches rather than with the #52 ranked ECNL team in front of a few. Which will never happen, because in those games you are there to compete as a team.
When comparing the available opportunities for players to compete as part of club team for team honors as well as the available opportunities for individual evaluation and identification, in my opinion USYSA offers more as an organization than ECNL. I'm not saying the level of competition amongst ECNL teams is more or less than that found in USYSA. I'm saying that if I eventually had to make a choice between one or the other as a player I would choose USYSA. That said, however, from a club perspective I think there are other factors involved when choosing which organization may offer better opportunities to the teams as a group.
Those clubs that do participate in ECNL will also have teams participating in USYSA (you don't really think Dallas Texans are going to drop all teams except the one in ECNL do you?). What would be really nice would be if the club genuinely supports the individual player's choice as to which route (ECNL/USYSA) she wants to take... even if she is considered by the coach to be the best player he's ever had.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 16
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 16 |
ODP results are in on the website. Any surprises?
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,062
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,062 |
I agree that results aren't wildly important. I was merely responding to an earlier question. My one exception to the "results not important" statement would be the case of clear UNDER-achievement, when it can be traced (in part) to the coach(es).
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