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#153692 02/07/12 08:48 PM
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I don't think anyone will question the importance of a high school education, but I'm not sure the same can be said about high school soccer. Apparently the tide has been shifting towards emphasizing club play and development leagues.

Let's talk about high school soccer

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Please...
It amazes me how few of the other US sports that compete at international levels insist on the narrow-minded stance that high school play gets in the way. Imagine telling basketball players that high school play is a detriment to their development. Yet, our US basketball, baseball and volleyball teams, to name a few, compete quite well internationally. Again, we are side-stepping the real problem in the development of our US soccer youth. That is that we identify youth soccer players according to the size of mamma’s purse and not talent. Our ID programs price kids out of participation. I was recently at a regional ODP camp and I can honestly say that few, if any, players in our age group were athletic and technical! But, they could all afford the trip.


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This is what I was saying in my post on the club side. US Soccer has basically, implicitly or not, given the old up-yours to high school soccer and high school coaches every where. Luckily I can use my dual citizenship to pull for the Dutch, but I feel sorry for the rest of you guys.

The irony is that sure, in other countries 15 and 16 year olds play ten month season. So do 19 and 20 year olds. But the USSF is too chicken to take on the length of the college season. I've always felt, based on observations of youth teams in Europe, that players from the States were very close to their equal. But the gap opens when, worldwide, 18-19 year olds go pro and play 10 month seasons, while in the states we have college.

IF USSF is serious about improving the national pool, it needs to encourage players not only to quit high school, but to forego college as well. It needs to provide agents to the DA players and get them jobs in some of the better world leagues after they graduate from high school. Until then, it's all sound and fury.

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In my opinion High School works for football, baseball, and basketball... yes. Most of those successful programs have kids playing year round, plus

Football in the upstate have dedicated weight training classes blocked out for the last period of the day...football players only
they have dedicated strength coaches...
they have 100,000 coaches...
they get fired if they do not win enough...
they want to win football games... if you do not believe me read the Palmetto football sight and all the talk about firing coach Brown at SHS... with an 8-3 record

how many high school soccer programs can be described in this way?

how many european clubs could be described in that way?
Probably more the later than the former.

We know what to do, but will not do it for a soccer team, across the US as a whole... until then we are toast.

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Which raises the question...do we really want to turn high school soccer into a cutthroat, survival-of-the-fittest environment, or should high school soccer be a balance of competition, player development, character development, and a complement to overall education, and let those elite who seek the first description have their other options without our complaint?


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I will reiterate my "shades of gray" argument. While I see your point, allow me to say that many Academy kids aren't cutthroat or "elite." They're normal kids, who love representing their schools as part of a virtual year-round schedule that includes BOTH high school and Academy soccer. There's nothing inherently good or bad about EITHER level of competition, and the BLEND does many kids a world of good.

Indeed, though many Academy gurus look down on high school soccer, they might do better to assure the cleanliness of their own houses first. Over the last few years, I've had the opportunity to observe Academy "done right" and "done wrong" by dozens of programs at venues across the country. Not all Academy soccer is great, or elite, or even particularly good.

At the same time, I have seen top-level high-school sides that would be competitive versus Academy sides, and, at the other end of the spectrum, some brutally bad high school sides, loosely "coached" by football assistants looking for nothing more than an out-of-season coaching stipend. THAT'S the strongest case for Academy exclusivity, and I can't deny it happens.

For the most part though, Academy kids in this state come from competitive high school programs, and I don't think that's a coincidence. You can argue the chicken-and-egg of it, but I suspect that's MOSTLY because strong high school sides have broader access to kids who have been raised in the game from a fairly young age. BEFORE Academy, that is. The Academy tends to recruit more-or-less "made" players. I have not seen our Academy identify a pure athlete and attempt to "coach" him into soccer. Nor am I totally convinced that all Academy sides even attempt to fulfill the "development" mandate. In some instances, Academy soccer bears a depressing resemblance to AAU basketball, where kids (and coaches) are essentially showcasing themselves to college programs.

So, Coach, in response to your question, you (and your Academy counterparts) SHOULD have the kids' best interests at heart. I believe you do. I hope you do. I can't say the same for everyone in the ongoing discussion, many of whom have a financial interest in the outcome.

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I just wish the USSF would look at the current structure that exists and realize high school soccer is established as part of American culture, 99.999% of kids go to high school at some point, what can then be done to work with high school coaches and make high school soccer better. I think that's a shame.

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Hey, Todd,

I'm with you, and I think you've made some great posts with insights into this issue. I don't think it's the Academy kids themselves who are forcing these choices at all. Mine was in response to the previous post about the demand to win and coaches with 8-3 seasons getting fired...that is not an environment I'd like to see in high school soccer just to satisfy someone's idea of what it takes to be "competitive"...I think there is a balance point where we can provide a lot of benefit to players of multiple levels, both on and off the field. I think the Academy can support that and still develop competitive players as well. And I think it's awfully tough to be the young people who get caught in the crossfire of two sides who don't seem to want to cooperate.


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I agree completely with you, Will. And thank you for your kind words.

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All: sorry for the confusion... my post was more about resources, and a system not a cut throat thing.

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That's also how I read it. All is well.

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Wayne--you could not be any closer to the truth in your post. Todd and Will also make extemely good points.
I don't think any of you have to worry, because if this is the path that D.A. continues to pursue, self destruction is in their future.

The D.A. is run nothing like this in Europe( which is ironic as I think they are trying to copy the model to a certain extent).

Playing for your Primary and Secondary school teams was encouraged by the Y.S.(Youth Systems) as they were called and indeed some of their coaches would attend our school matches. That being said, technical level of play was probably better, because virtually everybody played, making the talent pool almost unlimited.
The Y.S. chose to be a part of the school culture and did not want these boys having to deal with any prima dona issues at school that commonly arise in situations like this.

The talent is there at the National level and we have done well in international competition, based on the pecking order soccer now finds itself here.

If you want to know the truth, the rest of the world is probably thinking--" Are you kidding me! How do the Americans field such a technical, talented squad when their Youth Systems compete daily with Football, Basketball, Baseball, Racing and various other sports that depending on the region of the US you live in, all take numbers away.

I am telling you,I lived in Europe for quite a while. Rugby and Cricket take a very few away from your potential, and that is it. Games by the hundreds are played daily from street corners to school yards and if you have been there even for a few days, you know what I am talking about.

Perhaps Klinsman is the answer---One man( the right man) can make a huge difference--Just ask Celtic, Villa and now Sunderland, although I don't think we will see Martin roaming the US sidelines any time soon--pity really.

By the way, I noticed on the resume of one of the senior coaches at D.A. he has listed as having playing experience at "Sheffield United" FC.
Funny, I went to Wikipedia, where they have listed all players past and present and could not find his name. Now if he played in their Y.S., Academy or Reserves( which in my opinion is still a strong accomplishment) it should be listed as such--when you say F.C. and list nothing after it, the implication is clear--you played for the parent club, and unless Wikipedias list is wrong, that aint the case.
But as I mentioned to a friend yesterday---If we were talking about a Baseball D.A. and this was England, what would sound better--that I got called up for one game with the Charleston Riverdogs--or that I played for the New York Yankees?

Sorry Todd, but I have to do it. I am Anthony Pelton and I approve this message.

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I miss you, Anthony.

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Right back at you Todd. Good luck to you and the Trojans this year!

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Quote:


By the way, I noticed on the resume of one of the senior coaches at D.A. he has listed as having playing experience at "Sheffield United" FC.
Funny, I went to Wikipedia, where they have listed all players past and present and could not find his name. Now if he played in their Y.S., Academy or Reserves( which in my opinion is still a strong accomplishment) it should be listed as such--when you say F.C. and list nothing after it, the implication is clear--you played for the parent club, and unless Wikipedias list is wrong, that aint the case.
But as I mentioned to a friend yesterday---If we were talking about a Baseball D.A. and this was England, what would sound better--that I got called up for one game with the Charleston Riverdogs--or that I played for the New York Yankees?




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I thought long and hard about whether to respond but decided I needed to as my integrity has been brought into question.
It is easy for people to come on boards like this and make a statements that can harm the reputation of someone they simply don't know or by posting untruths. Before posting I wanted to speak with AP and tonight we chatted for a long time. We had a very amicable conversation and ended in a friendly manner. Prior to this telephone call he thought I was fraud touting playing experience to recruit players to play for the DA. I think his opinion had now changed. I have respect for his tenure in soccer within sc and feel no ill will to his post now we have had chance to talk.

I played for Sheffield United from 1994-1998 in the youth academy, reserves, and one time for the first team in a game versus Everton at the opening of the new John St stand.

I was captain of the academy for the 1996-97 and 1997-98 season. I played over 30 times for the reserves of over the same two seasons.

Evidently my name is not appearing on the Wikipedia website. I believe it is because I did not appear in a first team league match. However AP assures me, after talking with wikipedia, that I should appear based on my youth career.

To be honest I don't care that my name is not up there. My coaching career has never been built on my past playing experience nor have I have used it to recruit a player to come play on my team.

AP says he did the research (I believe him)and upon his findings felt I was a fraud. After talking with me I feel as though he would reconsider that notion.

I love the game of soccer and respect all that put their lives into it. I love SC and hope we can find a way to provide all levels of the game for its players given the new landscape. As adults and coaches it is important for us keep the best interests of the players in mind. My opinion is in SC hat means finding a way to keep the DA as an option to our players for now and the future. I also understand others will disagree and feel no HS soccer is too big a price to pay for SC in order to have DA. The culture of soccer in the USA is changing, time will tell if it is for the better. I say we would be doing a disservice if we, soccer coaches of sc, did not try and work together to find a way to make it work for the players of SC to participate in the league sanctioned by our governing body.

Let's look at solutions for the game to prosper not for ways to destroy each other.

Also please remember SCU Battery did not make the change to the rules regarding HS participation.

On a final note- my conversation with AP was amicable and ended in a friendly manner.

If anyone would like proof of my participation with Sheffield United I am sure Sue Strickland would have some photos or newspaper clippings in my scrapbook back in Hull

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Why not ....

"It amazes me how few of the other US sports that compete at international levels insist on the narrow-minded stance that high school play gets in the way"

Really? And pray do tell, just how long have other countries around the world played baseball, basketball and American Football at the High School level???

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Again ...

"IF USSF is serious about improving the national pool, it needs to encourage players not only to quit high school, but to forego college as well"

Totally agree ... College may be more of a detriment to soccer in the USA than HS ....

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I suggest Shut Up and Play withdraws his / her nomination!! Or I have a nomination for Shut Up and Play ....

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From Soccer America's Youth Insider:

High school Fun.Mike Barr’s YSI “The case for high school soccer” produced an enormous amount of feedback and we’ll continue to cover the topic, which has heated up since the U.S. Soccer Development Academy’s move to a 10-month season that doesn’t allow for high school play. Several supporters of high school ball in Soccer America’s chat room and in letters to the editor make the argument that kids relish playing for their schools.

One reader shared an anecdote of a player who skipped his junior year of high school ball at the behest of his Academy club, but sits on the bench at every game, cheering on his schoolmates, and has vowed to quit his Academy team as soon as he seals a college deal. Then he’ll return to play high school ball his senior year.

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Kyle,
This will be more the rule than the exception I predict as $ is spent and players are removing splinters from their behinds at D.A.
And are you kidding me--College is perhaps a bigger detrement to National Player Developement than High School? I am almost crying, I am laughing so loud.

Now you truly have the attention of these D.A. parents that have financed this to this point. This may very well be your epitath.How many of these parents do you honestly feel will encourage their kids to forego college, when that has been a main goal since U-6.

The very small percentage that make a National Team Pool almost insure failure here. What is to happen to the 99.9% of advanced age D.A. members that don't make the pool and are now 25 or 26 and haven't even been to an orientation?

Implementation at the National Level is unbelievable. This is The United States--not The United Kingdom or The United Arab Emirates.

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Quote:

I am almost crying, I am laughing so loud.




... And therein lies your problem!

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Coach Pelton, what orientation are suggesting these 25-26 yr old D.A. players have not been to? College?

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Yes Sir, that would be the one I am talking about--if they have followed this apparently new DA directive.

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I propose a simple compromise, which would not really require doing anything that has not, in some way, already been done.

I propose that the DA could offer two levels of membership. For those players for whom playing in high school (or in other local options) is important, the previous one-season model would be an option, which would still allow those players to benefit from training at the advertised highest level, expose those athletes to the selection system, and probably attract a certain number of athletes into the program who are qualified and have great potential, but may not be ready to give up all of their other options at this point and might select themselves out of the DA system entirely rather than buy into the all-or-nothing model.

For those players who know that they are dedicated to shaping themselves into the next generation of professional/international players and are willing to totally commit to that goal, the 10-month season would be their option. These groups of players would be able to train year-round at the highest level knowing that they are all challenging each other toward the same goals, unconflicted by second guesses over forced choices.

High school coaches, in turn, should take this offer of choice by the DA in good faith and encourage their elite players to at least participate in the one-season option. They should also respect the PLAYER'S INFORMED CHOICE OF OPTIONS...if at any point a player says "Coach, I've worked in the DA and I believe, to meet my goals, that going full-time with them is MY BEST CHOICE"--then accept that this is not any kind of forced decision or rivalry ploy by the DA or anyone else, but the player's free will choice, given all options. Respect it, encourage it, and tell him how proud of him you are for earning the opportunity and how much you hope to be watching him on the big screen.

That's my humble idea for an ideal model...if the "all the way from the start or we're not going to train you at all/it's either us or them" model still makes more sense, I will bow to wisdom beyond my understanding.


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I don't get it. I don't understand at all.....why you guys are so negative about this. I looked around....and there are over 150 high schools in SC playing soccer. If each school has 15 varsity players rostered thats 2250 boys playing high school in this state.

There are maybe 35-40 kids that this effects. So 35-40 kids out of no less than 2250. This truly effects 1% of the kids statewide.

And I guarantee that any high school with Academy players...the coaches are probably cutting 10-20 kids before the season even starts.

There will be no perceptible drop in the level of high school soccer. And kids who would have beeen roster cuts will get the chance to play. And whats wrong with that?

So whats the problem? Lets be honest with ourselves!!

This is absolutely about choice. So let it be at choice and let the chips fall where they will.

Coach Chass....regarding your proposal.....how do you expect to roster a team when kids may be there and they may not be there? Its like Boris Yeltsin said of Mikhail Gorbachev...he called him his old friend, a lover of half measures. You end up satisfying no one with plans like that.

School football and basketball don't conflict so if a kid wants to do both he can. Club soccer and school basketball DO conflict. Kids that want to do both.....can't, unless at least one of the coaches bends over backwards. 99% of those kids.....have to make a choice.

10 month Academy won't effect 99% of the kids who roster a HS team. Shouldn't even be an issue. For the 1% that it does effect, they have a decision to make. Their decision.

I really don't know what you guys want. Soccer would be wonderful in this country if only.......it were free, the best athletes played, we developed an Amercian model, we copied the best of the European model, kids went pro out of high school, kids went to college after high school, kids had American heroes who were soccer players, the game were on TV all the time, soccer players made NBA level salaries, etc etc.

How about this?

Soccer will get better in this country when more kids play at any level...and when the elite player gets elite levels and quantities of training.

I love it.....when I see more and more classic level soccer and recreational soccer programs in my area. The growth of kids playing in York COunty at this level......is WAY higher than it was 6-8 years ago, and I find that awesome!!!

And I love it....when I see American kids that live and breathe the game.....get the kind of training and repetition that will allow them to maybe...maybe....compete a few years from now with kids from Mexico or Spain or Argentina or Ireland.

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Quote:

Which raises the question...do we really want to turn high school soccer into a cutthroat, survival-of-the-fittest environment, or should high school soccer be a balance of competition, player development, character development, and a complement to overall education, and let those elite who seek the first description have their other options without our complaint?




Actually Coach......an excellent post. My take is.....all of the above. The "elite" go on about their business. And hs balances cutthroat competition, with all of the "soft" benefits which highlight hs sports.

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Quote:



Coach Chass....regarding your proposal.....how do you expect to roster a team when kids may be there and they may not be there? Its like Boris Yeltsin said of Mikhail Gorbachev...he called him his old friend, a lover of half measures. You end up satisfying no one with plans like that.





Actually, BD, I did consider that particular issue as a matter of concern, but not one that would be prohibitive. First of all, I would never suggest a model in which kids "may be there and may not be there." I would expect players to commit at the beginning of the seasonal year to their choice of model, either half or full 10-month season, hold them to it, and plan accordingly for each group. I mean, under the current system, what's to stop a player from taking the first months of training, then deciding HS ball is important and dropping out to play, except for the threat of not being allowed back into the DA? You can put the same restrictions on those who commit to 10 months, and by giving the half-season option to those who may be torn between choices, it's actually easier to plan around them.

Since it seems likely that the half-year group would be larger than the 10-month, it might be necessary to consolidate two first-half teams into one for the extended part of the season, but that doesn't seem too unreasonable. If they have been receiving the same quality training they should mesh fairly seamlessly, and the concept of mixing and matching players into consolidation teams is far from new; it seems to be the norm, at least at higher levels.

Also, if I have been reading carefully, the primary focus of the DA seems not to be so much on forming competitive teams as on "fewer games and an extended season [which will] will allow for the addition of a substantial number of extra training sessions, which are the primary vehicle for player development.”

If we agree that the primary purpose of the DA is player development (hence the name), and that the primary vehicle for player development is training sessions, not games, then it would seem that the primary objective of the DA would be not so much "rostering teams" as getting as many elite players as possible into as many elite-level training sessions as possible. If you can get 40 players to commit to a half-year of elite training and only 20 of those are willing to extend to a full 10-month season, then you've still done a lot more player development than by just having the 20 from the start. If the price of that is that you have to move beyond the concept of 10-month permanently-rostered teams only for competition purposes, then maybe that's not too steep, especially if inter-team competition isn't the primary focus of the DA.

Quote:

How about this?

Soccer will get better in this country when more kids play at any level...and when the elite player gets elite levels and quantities of training.




I absolutely agree with this. While there is a lot of debate about the mechanism by which to achieve them, I think you've nailed the objectives there. I think the idea of the DA is fantastic for those elite who will best benefit from it--and I can even say that while wearing my HS coaching hat.

In the interest of those common objectives, I think that in order to build up the sport of soccer, we are going to have to tear down any perceptions that the different levels of soccer are working against each other and build up the idea of all levels of soccer working toward the same over-arching goals. Pulling off THAT little trick is going to require a lot of maturity and sensitivity on all sides, a reasonable amount of compromise, a mutual respect for different approaches to the same unselfish goals, and a willingness to provide choices and options that aren't always either/or in nature. Yes, it might take a little more effort and will certainly require a certain amount of sacrifice (and maybe a little swallowing of pride) on all sides, but if our sport and our players are really as important as we all say they are, I guess they might be worth it.

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And, for the record, I never was trying to be negative; just trying to be objective and come up with an idea where the goals of the DA and the concerns of HS and other coaches could be addressed, so that the system can function with maximum support from all stakeholders.

Next weekend, if I have some free time, I'm going to try to brainstorm for ideas to bring peace to the Middle East.

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Development Academy moves to 10-month schedule

The U.S. Soccer Development Academy has announced it is moving to a 10-month season starting with the 2012-13 season.

After receiving overwhelming support from the Development Academy membership, the Academy is moving to a schedule beginning in the fall of 2012 that runs from September through June (or July based on postseason play). This creates a format that is similar to those followed by the elite soccer playing nations around the world as the Development Academy and U.S. Soccer continue their goal of closing the performance gap with the top soccer nations.

"If we want our players to someday compete against the best in the world, it is critical for their development that they train and play as much as possible and in the right environment," said U.S. Men's National Team head coach Jurgen Klinsmann. "The Development Academy 10-month season is the right formula and provides a good balance between training time and playing competitive matches. This is the model that the best countries around the world use for their programs, and I think it makes perfect sense that we do as well."

A number of clubs already have switched to the 10-month season and have seen substantial improvement (Western Conference, Texas Division). U.S. Soccer recognizes there might be challenges during the transition process and will work with individual clubs to make this swift transition as easy as possible.

Moving to a 10-month season means players can focus on training together three or four times per week and play meaningful games on the weekend nearly year-round. Fewer games and an extended season will allow for the addition of a substantial number of extra training sessions, which are the primary vehicle for player development.


The 10-month season allows for a greater opportunity to institute a style of play and implement a system according to U.S. Soccer's Curriculum as well as build team chemistry. It also gives teams increased opportunities for younger kids in their club to "play up" against older players in both training and matches, thereby accelerating their development.

"Going to a 10-month season is an important step in the evolution of elite player development," said U.S. Soccer Youth Technical Director Claudio Reyna. "The format provides the ideal platform to place an increased emphasis on the value of training on a regular basis, and offers the opportunity to play in quality, competitive games throughout an extended season. This schedule puts our elite players in line with kids in their age group internationally, and places the appropriate physical demands at this stage in their development.

"The addition of a significant number of training sessions per year will enhance the ability of players to develop," said Reyna. "Along with the support of our membership, this move has been greeted with enthusiasm from leading soccer nations around the world."

U.S. Soccer created the Development Academy in 2007 to improve the everyday environment for the elite youth player. The Development Academy is a partnership between U.S. Soccer and the top youth clubs around the country to provide the best youth players in the U.S. with an everyday environment designed to produce the next generation of National Team players.

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So is DA more about winning or player development? They must win games to attract/keep the elite players, correct? Will parents pay the big bucks if their player on a losing side? In the USA, there is conflict with player development vs. winning. Clubs/coaches preach player development but mostly they’re out to win. Size and speed trumps ball skills with most coaches (would Messi make a DA squad at 14 yo) and add club ball (it’s about making money) and the best athletes (where’s the money?) don’t play soccer in the US. So why all the fuss over HS soccer and is HS soccer really the problem with player development in the US.

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The academy system is extremely overrated in terms of what it is trying to accomplish. I don't think it is going to make the usmnt that much better. Coaching has an impact, but I think it makes far less of one then it is made out to be. If you look at our other sports, it is easy to see why the superstars are superstars. They have a ton of natural ability and worked their butt of as a kid, playing 6 plus hours a day in practice and on their own, the majority of the time spent with no coaching. Pickup games, by themselves, etc. If I coached LeBron James as a kid, he would still be in the NBA even though I have no basketball coaching experience. Same goes for Kobe. An example we can relate to for South Carolina is Sammy Watkins. His story is well known now. He came from a terrible neighborhood and to stay out of trouble would often go to his local field and run routes by himself until it got dark. The theme you'll find with most of our top athletes, regardless of sport, is the insane amount of work they do on their own. I'm not talking a Sunday pickup game, I'm talking 3+ hours a day.

The problem soccer has in this country is that it is an elitist sport. If you don't have money you aren't playing. Kids who have money don't work anywhere near as hard as kids from the inner city who see sports as a way out. Until we start attracting inner city kids we are never going to be a soccer power. Just isn't happening regardless of our coaching or setup. Superstars aren't made by good coaching they are made by amazing natural talent and hard work. You can't teach either. If anything our setup is hurting our chances of turning into a power. A lot of top players drive 90 minutes each way to a 90 minute practice. So they play 1 hour and a half and waste 4 and a half hours to do it. The last thing they are going to want to do when they get home is go to a local field and play on their own. Heck even if they did they wouldn't have time unless they don't care about academics.

It's a bad problem to have and it's very hard to fix. Basketball and football get all the attention and huge salaries so the inner city kids are always going to go that route. Until we start pulling a few, we won't be a soccer power regardless of how hard we try. Not to mention football and basketball are free to play, not pay to play.

But if you have two kids of identical talent, and one trains 90 minutes 4x a week with Mourinho or Sir Alex Ferguson and the other trains 90 minutes 4x a week with your average American coach and then plays 4.5 hours a day on his own 7 times a week, I'm betting the mortgage that the average coached kid is going to make the better player. That's the real problem with American soccer IMO.

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Klinsmann and Co. make case for 10-month club season, no high school ball
By Mike Woitalla

U.S. Soccer made it official last Friday that its 78-club Development Academy league will move to a 10-month schedule starting with the 2012-13 season.

More than 3,000 of the nation's elite boys play for Academy teams in U-15/16 and U-17/18 leagues and the schedule change means no high school soccer for them. That's the most controversial aspect of the move the Federation says is necessary to create a better balance between training and games and to “close the performance gap with the top soccer nations.”

U.S. national team coach Jurgen Klinsmann said in the Academy’s press release:

"If we want our players to someday compete against the best in the world, it is critical for their development that they train and play as much as possible and in the right environment. The Development Academy 10-month season is the right formula and provides a good balance between training time and playing competitive matches. This is the model that the best countries around the world use for their programs, and I think it makes perfect sense that we do as well."

Said USSF Youth Technical Director Claudio Reyna, "This schedule puts our elite players in line with kids in their age group internationally, and places the appropriate physical demands at this stage in their development."

The USA, however, is unique to international soccer powers in that it has a strong tradition of scholastic sports participation. The club vs. high school conflict emerged before the Academy league’s arrival in 2007, but it has heated up since one third of the Academy teams moved to the 10-month schedule last year. U.S. Soccer addressed the issue of “banning” kids from high school ball in its “Frequently Asked Questions” about the schedule change:

“Everyplayer has a choice to play high school soccer or in the Development Academy. We believe that for those elite soccer players who are committed to pursuing the goal of reaching the highest levels they can in the sport, making this decision will provide them a big advantage in their development and increase their exposure to top coaches in the United States and from around the world.

“We are talking about a group of players who want to continue at the next level, whether that is professional or college, which is still the destination for a majority of our graduates.”

On whether the quality of high school soccer would be reduced, U.S. Soccer responds with:

“Overall, only 1 percent of all players currently playing high school soccer are involved with the Development Academy. We are only talking about a small percentage of elite players who have the goal of playing soccer at the highest levels. High School soccer will continue to make an important contribution to the soccer landscape in this country.”

On whether Academy coaches are better than high school coaches:

“There are many quality coaches in both the Development Academy and high school teams. The Academy environment allows for more focused and consistent training with less emphasis on games. Academy players and coaches also receive ongoing feedback, instruction and guidance from U.S. Soccer Technical Advisors, who are also the main scouts for the U.S. national team programs.”

U.S. Soccer says the move received “overwhelming support” from its member clubs.

“The key to development, to me, is playing against quality players in practice,” said Crossfire Premier Coaching Director Bernie James in a statement. “I think if you’re with a group of good players who are pushing each other, and you have that for most of the year, then I think it’s bound to be better for development.”

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U.S. Soccer bans its elite players from high school ball

When the high school soccer season kicks off next fall, there is a good chance some of the best players in the area will not be participating.

Friday afternoon, in a decision that has been anticipated and hotly debated for several months, United States Soccer announced that the U.S. Soccer Development Academy is adopting a 10-month schedule that will start in September of 2012 and finish up with playoffs in July.

The announcement means that many of the area's premier players will have to decide between playing for the Academy or for their high schools next fall.

"It's certainly a radical change, one that has and will create a lot of controversy,'' said Dale Schilly, the director of youth development for the St. Louis Scott Gallagher Metro program in Illinois. "This is an emotional issue, especially here, where high school sports have traditionally played such a big part in our lives.

"This wasn't my idea or something Scott Gallagher came up with. It's the format that U.S. Soccer has asked us to follow and we're doing it to make sure we can remain part of the Academy system.''

The U.S. Soccer Development Academy began in 2007 and is a boys' soccer partnership between U.S. Soccer and the top youth clubs around the country designed to develop the nation's elite players. There are currently four area squads involved - SLSG Missouri U15/U16, SLSG Missouri U17/U18, SLSG Metro U15/U16 and SLSG Metro U17/18.

U.S. Soccer feels that the 10-month season, which has been successful in Texas and California, gives our country the best chance to close the performance gap with other soccer nations.

"If we want our players to someday compete against the best in the world, it is critical that they train and play as much as possible in the right environment,'' U.S. Men's National Team coach Jurgen Klinsmann said in a press release. "The Development Academy 10-month season is the right formula and provides a good balance between training time and playing competitive matches. This is the model that the best countries around the world use for their programs, and I think it makes perfect sense that we do as well.''

Schilly's main concern with the high school game is the condensed schedule and the toll it takes on players.

"The high school teams are playing three and four games every week, which leaves limited time for training,'' he said. "In this system, there's more time for training and development, with games on the weekends.''

While area high school coaches Terry Michler of CBC and Chaminade's Mike Gauvain can understand U.S. Soccer's plan in theory, they do not agree with this approach.

"If they were going to target the top 60 or 80 or even 100 top kids in an age group and work to develop them, maybe that's something I could understand,'' Gauvain said. "But the scope of this is just too big. The Academy system has something like 72 teams nationwide; there's just no way there are that many elite-level players out there for a system like this.''

Added Michler: "They're going to try to sell this to players and their parents as the path to college or professional soccer, and that's just not true. If you're a top player, a truly elite player, you're going to be found, no matter where you play.''

Both Gauvain and Michler cited the role athletics play in the overall high school experience.

"I've been involved in soccer my whole life, as a player and as a coach at every level, and there's no way I would give up the experience I had playing soccer and baseball at St. Mary's,'' Gauvain said. "Being part of the soccer team at Chaminade is more than just soccer, it's about being part of the school community and doing what you need to do - keeping your grades up, showing up on time, being a good school citizen - in order to be eligible to stay part of the soccer team.''

Michler, the winningest high school soccer coach in America, added: "There's something special about being able to represent your school in a rivalry game in front of your friends and family and classmates. And you just don't get that in club soccer, even at the top level.

"What we're doing is asking these players and their families to make extremely difficult decisions in a system that didn't need to be changed.''

Schilly sees this as the next step in the evolution of club soccer.

"Twenty or 30 years ago, you played for the team in your community, but at some point, that evolved into playing for select teams and regional clubs,'' he said. "Now, in an effort to try to continue to develop players, U.S. Soccer wants us to take that next step.

"The thing to remember is that the players and their parents will make the choice and that this will only impact a small percentage of players."

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U.S. Development Academy will move to 10-month season, forbid players from playing high school soccer
By Paul Tenorio

The U.S. Soccer Federation announced Friday that the U.S. Development Academy, the top level of youth soccer, will be extended to a 10-month season from seven and not allow players to compete for high school programs. Officials say the changes are necessary to develop players of a higher caliber and move forward the growth of the sport.

“If we want our players to someday compete against the best in the world, it is critical for their development that they train and play as much as possible and in the right environment,” U.S. national team coach Juergen Klinsmann said in a statement released by the USSF.

“The Development Academy 10-month season is the right formula and provides a good balance between training time and playing competitive matches. This is the model that the best countries around the world use for their programs, and I think it makes perfect sense that we do as well.”

The move to a 10-month schedule had already come in some pockets of the country: Southern California, Texas and the Pacific Northwest, and was chronicled in The Post last May.

The change will only affect a small percentage of D.C. area players, though they are among the most elite. Area academy team pools include about 50 players across age groups, meaning the rule changes would impact about 150 players locally. The USSF said the new schedule will impact only 1 percent of high school players nationally.

Players who attend private schools, such as DeMatha and Gonzaga, in order to play soccer will likely feel the biggest impact.

“Going to a 10-month season is an important step in the evolution of elite player development,” USSF youth technical director Claudio Reyna said. “The format provides the ideal platform to place an increased emphasis on the value of training on a regular basis, and offers the opportunity to play in quality, competitive games throughout an extended season. This schedule puts our elite players in line with kids in their age group internationally, and places the appropriate physical demands at this stage in their development.”

The changeover has created much debate in U.S. soccer circles, with some coaches saying it is a necessary change and others, including University of Maryland Coach Sasho Cirovski, arguing that the academy can function alongside high school and was initially designed to do just that.

Cirovski said he attended the MLS draft and heard “something like six of the first seven picks” thank their high school coach along with club or college influences.

“I think the ultimate choice should come down to the player,” Cirovski said. “I think there’s certainly value in going 10 months and playing academy, but there’s also tremendous value in kids having the high school experience. And I think the ultimate decision should rest with the player and I think there’s still a win-win scenario.”

In an email sent to Potomac Academy and pre-Academy players and parents and obtained by The Post, Potomac director of academy programs Kris Hazard outlined the move to a 10-month schedule.

“U.S. Soccer understands the concerns and disappointment in not being allowed to participate in high school soccer as well as the financial challenges clubs face with the additional expenses and logistics that the expanded season would present,” Hazard wrote. “However, in light of these concerns and challenges, US Soccer feels that this programming and environment offers more emphasis on player development by providing meaningful competition and consistent, focused training as a team.”

In the e-mail, Hazard said that Potomac would consider its options for the 2012 season.

D.C. United will participate in the new 10-month schedule.

“We’ve made a lot of strides forward with the Development Academy since 2007 when we began this new approach to developing our best young talent,” United President Kevin Payne said. “The move to a 10-month season and the focus on an increasing number of high-quality training days for our players is a logical next step and an important one which we believe will bear fruit for us in the future.”

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By my quick count 22 states will not have a Development Academy in their state (OR, NE, ID, MT, WY, UT, NM, ND, SD, NE, IA, OK, MO, LA, MS, TN, KY, WV, ME, VT, DE, and RI). Are these states not going to be producing any national team players because of not participating in the DA?

I know that some of the northeastern states can go to nearby DAs in other locales, but what about those players in the five southeastern states and those in Big Sky country? I guess the national team of the 20-teens will just come from 44% of the country!

PS -- I wish Mt. Pleasant was represented instead of St. George! But then again, I don't expect Klinsmann or Reyna to know much about S.C.


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I find this quote interesting and kind of hypocritical.

"We understand there may be unique situations for a small population of players, such as those in certain private schools, and we are willing to discuss different options and determine a solution so they can participate in the Academy."

Said differently... if you are the elite of the elite and you decide to play high school soccer, we will work with you so that we can say you play Academy. I am curious as to what the private school reasoning is.


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Quote:

I find this quote interesting and kind of hypocritical.

"We understand there may be unique situations for a small population of players, such as those in certain private schools, and we are willing to discuss different options and determine a solution so they can participate in the Academy."

Said differently... if you are the elite of the elite and you decide to play high school soccer, we will work with you so that we can say you play Academy. I am curious as to what the private school reasoning is.




Not positive.........but I think the concern here was for kids who were receiving athletic scholarships to attend a private high school.

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Quote:

Quote:

I find this quote interesting and kind of hypocritical.

"We understand there may be unique situations for a small population of players, such as those in certain private schools, and we are willing to discuss different options and determine a solution so they can participate in the Academy."

Said differently... if you are the elite of the elite and you decide to play high school soccer, we will work with you so that we can say you play Academy. I am curious as to what the private school reasoning is.




Not positive.........but I think the concern here was for kids who were receiving athletic scholarships to attend a private high school.




Yes, several private schools count participation in a sport as P.E. credit. There are also a ton of private schools in the mid-Atlantic and northeast region that would certainly have DA caliber players and this probably pushed that exemption.


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Athletic scholarships are forbidden in SC under SCISA rules. That is not to say they don't happen.

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Quote:

Athletic scholarships are forbidden in SC under SCISA rules. That is not to say they don't happen.




Nice try! I can tell you that there are several kids playing high school soccer at S.C. private schools that do not have even close to the means necessary to attend a private school. I know of one school that costs at least $10,000 per year and the family doesn't have anywhere near the money for their son to go to school there. Maybe someone else is paying their bill, but it's not the family.


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This is old news. MANY SCISA schools accommodate kids under a variety of guises: academics, diversity, financial need, etc. For years, Porter-Gaud's student body diversity initiative actively recruited a boatload of kids who (wink-wink, nod-nod) just happened to be basketball players.

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Did anyone ask the kids what they want? Sounds like the DA management, coaches and parents are acting like politicians.

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Greenacres and soccer10 you are absolutely right. Check Christ Church and St Joes in all sports-you are likely to find several "charity scolarships" who just happen to be athletes. On another note if kids are good enough they dont need DA. Take Sebastian Velasquez for example, he is probably the most naturaly skilled player from SC, he never played DA and stopped club soccer when he was 16 because of differences in philosophy with with the coaches. He continued to train on his own played JUCO was offered a scholarship to Clemson but decided to go to MLS and was drafted by Real Salt Lake. He is impressing his coaches more than the much heralded Enzo is.

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Coach Pelton,

I just wanted to make sure what you were talking about; but when you said "What is to happen to the 99.9% of advanced age D.A. members that don't make the pool and are now 25 or 26 and haven't even been to an orientation?" I'm not really sure what you are referring to. This is minor in the whole discussion, but I don't think you'll find anyone close to 25-26 yr olds in the D.A.. The oldest age group is U17/18; I don't think their age rules/requirements are that loose.

A couple seasons ago, there was a kid who had graduated high school and was playing D.A., but he was doing so to increase his chance/opportunity to play college ball. This kid was 18/19 yrs old max, and was specifically trying to get into college.

Just not sure where your "25 or 26" yr old comment is coming from.

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Belligerent,
You are correct, I am in error. Those older players I guess would simply be classed as being considered for the National Pool(possibly be playing U-21. etc) for the MNT.

The point I was trying to make was, with all this new talk( and I am not sure if D.A. is behind this or not)of players foregoing college, by the time some of them realized the N.P. was no longer a reality, they might be 25 or 26.

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I know several of the better 17/18 Battery DA kids and they are playing HS this year because they have already committed to college and would rather play for their school

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They have that option THIS year. They would not have the same option in the future. Its one or the other. And trust me, you would be surprised at the player's answers.

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Despite the good intentions, this is a sad day for soccer in America.

The decision to preclude kids, even a small number of kids, from playing high school ball will only create animosity towards our Beautiful Game. This is counterproductive, because the biggest factor in fostering a competitive environment is a love of the sport.

The DA has effectively closed off an avenue of development by denigrating high school programs and the intangible benefits individual players receive from being part of a high school squad. The thinking is one dimensional, and if the European model is the objective, it really doesn't match up anyway.

There needs to be a truly American solution to the development problem, one that integrates our love for high school sports, and our values of family and community.

Sure, this decision will affect a very small number of individual players, and high schools as a whole, but certain high schools will feel it hard. This also means that a few more kids will be able to make their high school teams, which is great, but it also signals that those who play on high school teams are incapable of playing at a higher level. It makes achievement in soccer too elite, so elite, that it's offputting.

The DA has already had an effect on club soccer. Tournaments and showcase events are not as well attended by college coaches as they have been in the past. Coaches flock to the Academy events instead. Colleges recruit nearly entirely through club now, which has already drawn coaches away from high school teams. This has narrowed the pipeline, not increased it.

If the problem really is a lack of development in high school programs, why can't the solution be to improve the high school programs? Not cut them out of the picture? This looks more like a turf war instead of what's good for our players (code word "player development").

This is not a forward thinking solution to the problem. I predict that this will lead to a diminished number of "elite" players, not more. The reason is not because players are so dedicated to high school ball, it is because the attitude being cultivated about soccer is that a kid's future is so limited it is not worth trying anymore. This will lead kids to filter into other sports at the youngest ages. Nearly every kid that ever plays a sport always has a dream to play in the big leagues one day. We need every single one of those kids to keep at it in order to build our national program. Soccer in the US already has an elitist problem, it would be better to work on changing that attitude rather than to feed it.

The DA map of clubs is very interesting. How narrow a field this great nation explores for its elite players. It is actually quite illustrative of the reasoning behind this decision.

They need to open the flood gates, not sand bag them.

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The one question so-far unanswered here is: How do college coaches feel about the Academy announcement? Are college coaches with 2013 commitments going to suggest/require those kids to play Academy, or will they give kids an option? And, will as-yet uncommitted 2013s suffer from NOT playing Academy in the Fall?

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Jay-Jay - Brilliant and erudite. Well said.

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I see all the post about the DA or High School if my son had a choice it would be DA but lucky for his High School there is not room on the DA for him. There also is another problem for players like my son. He is a good player but has not been selected for the DA. He trains and plays at a high level but the problem lies with this. As the DA grows with only one DA team in SC, they select players from different clubs to build the team that the DA coaches feel would be the best options to field a strong competitive team. As the better players usual are pulled from the premier teams which in essence waters down the premier team. When the premier team loses one to two players the team could survive if they can find players to replace the lost talents which is a hit or miss. However if the same premier team gets hit year after year and losing some of the best players to the DA then the Premier team would be left with few options for the remaining players that were not selected for the DA. He could continue to play club but if his team is pulled apart to the point they would not be competitive even at a lower level of play what would you do? He could play up an age group that he could handle but if he was playing in the U18 bracket then what would he do the following year when you would be back to square one. He could change clubs but that would mean driving great distances to practice during school nights. Not play club and join the Adult leagues until college. The options are not looking really good.
DA is as highly competitive soccer that our youth will ever see and I feel that if a player wants to take their soccer to the next level it's a path that should be looked hard into. I just wished that our state could have more than one team but our talent base may not be there just yet to support that but its coming I hope but too late for my son or so it seems.
So bottom line if a player would like to choose HS over DA let us know for my son would gladly fill the empty slot and forgo HS and his HS coach would support my son all the way which he already has stated many times!

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Sure, this decision will affect a very small number of individual players, and high schools as a whole, but certain high schools will feel it hard. This also means that a few more kids will be able to make their high school teams, which is great, but it also signals that those who play on high school teams are incapable of playing at a higher level. It makes achievement in soccer too elite, so elite, that it's offputting...

...If the problem really is a lack of development in high school programs, why can't the solution be to improve the high school programs? Not cut them out of the picture? This looks more like a turf war instead of what's good for our players (code word "player development").





JayJay,

A very well thought-out post! Along with some other things that got me digging around over the last day or two, it got me to thinking as well.

U.S. Soccer bills itself as "the governing body of soccer in all of its forms in the United States." However, how true is this, actually? How much influence does U.S. Soccer have over high school soccer programs? I didn't see the NFHS under the list of USSF affiliates. This, in turn, got me to thinking...is it a matter that high school programs are deemed inferior and those who choose high school aren't good enough to play at the next level--or is it a matter that those players, in that context, simply aren't under U.S. Soccer's control, but under the influence of programs and coaches who don't answer directly to U.S. Soccer and thus aren't held accountable to U.S. Soccer's methods and goals?

Just talking out possibilities at the keyboard, but it's my nature to look at all things from all angles, even the ones that aren't always politically correct...there are a lot of motives and angles in between "what's best for player development" and "turf war," and sometimes it's between the lines that you will find the nearest thing to truth.


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1. Who is cutting HS out of the picture? Did someone really say for HS to stop playing soccer?

2. Which program in the state is supposedly going to suffer greatly? What is the name of the HS?

3. What is a job of a coach?

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Claudio Reyna and the rest of US Soccer has just been hinting at it with some of the changes they have been making.

For example: Switching the development academy clubs to a 10 month season.

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Claudio Reyna and the rest of US Soccer has just been hinting at it with some of the changes they have been making.

For example: Switching the development academy clubs to a 10 month season.




Yeah...I read the article a long time ago. They are not suggesting for HS to cut their program.

There seems to be much overreaction to this suggestion. HS is not being lost or forgotten or cut from any HS at the suggestion of US Soccer or USSF or Reyna. So, why are people insisting that this is so?

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Quote:

1. Who is cutting HS out of the picture? Did someone really say for HS to stop playing soccer?


Nobody. Nope, and it probably wouldn't have much effect if they did.

Quote:

2. Which program in the state is supposedly going to suffer greatly? What is the name of the HS?




Doubtfully any will suffer "greatly" unless there is a surge in DA participation that is beyond all expectations. Might actually be interesting to see how the depth chart works out under local training.

Quote:

3. What is a job of a coach?




Now THAT one depends on who you ask...many different stakeholders have different goals. The "job" of a US National Team coach might be perceived as very different from the "job" of a U18 Classic coach, or a high school coach, or a college coach, or an Academy coach, etc. I guess my best answer to that would be that the job of a coach is to best meet the needs of the program and the players.


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I have read many of the comments here and I would like to put my two cents in and try to do so as unbiased as possible.

Pros for HS - it fits the sense community, it is socially important to be recognized as a member of the squad, it allows the player to enjoy participating with his life long friends

Cons for HS - most schools cannot provide acceptable coaching, most schools facilities are not suitable, most schools pay minimal stipend to coaches who have to spend the same amount of time as other sports, most school cannot field highly competitive teams ( this is the reason why the same schools are talked about year after year), every year the roster makeup changes, Not all states play the same season

Pros for DA - Highly structured, competitive games, competitive teammates, qualified "highly" compensated coaches, team "stability" every year

Cons for DA - playing Costs (paid by player),travel costs (paid by player), and I am sure plenty of others


The article states the demand for the 10 month season was brought up by the clubs... these are the same group of people who "benefit" from the ruling would they have voted against it?

On the other hand many of the arguments made for HS goes clearly against what HS do today

Billy and johnny go to the same school but they are "segregated" because of their academic abilities. Billy takes AP classes Johnny takes normal classes. Therefore HS recognize that learning is dependent on the individual's ability to grasp the requirements ... would this not be the same argument for different levels in a sport?

HS cannot do development of players to the extent that is discussed here. Most know that players develop most of their technical capabilities by around 14 at which time it tilts toward tactical development. You cannot develop players that are not all on the same page (see Billy and Johnny above)

And lastly...It is a shame that participating in a socially important time of one's life is reduced to having to make a choice at 14 (as many DA are moving in this direction). Perhaps it would have been easier to work with if the whole country played HS at the same time. I can agree with many of the comments about the feeling that players get with HS sport... In the end they are two separate issues

I am afraid there are no simple answers one way or the other

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High school is being cut out of the Big Picture, as in marginalized, not eradicated.

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I have read this thread with curiosity for several days. I can see both sides of the argument having validity. However, to me it's all about choices. If you look at the different types of restaurants in the Columbia area most people could name probably 20 - 25. If you look at the number of electric companies in the Columbia area most people can name one - SCE&G. The point I am making is luckily, in most things we deal with in our lives choice is a fact of life. What if soccer was like SCE&G and we had only one level --- would that be a good thing? We now have so many levels of soccer that something should be available to most anyone. From recreation, classic, challenge, premier, DA - and of course school soccer. These are all "choices" - an important part of our Democratic way of life. Yes, the DA may have an effect on high school soccer - but with choices often come change. Sometimes for the better - sometimes for the worse. To me - we are just fortunate to live in a country where these players (who wish to train and play at this high level) have that choice!

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Nuke worker the DA does not pull from the premier teams, it consists of a few who use to play premier, the best premier teams often have better players than any of the DA kids. Cole Seiler is not a DA player but I challenge you to find a player on the DA in Charleston who is better, Patrick Khouri is not a DA player and I dont know of any player his age who is better and he lives in Charleston but drives to Greenville to play on a Premier team that is much better than the DA team in his age group. Also the only HS team that will be hurt by this decision is Wando, most of the DA teams are made up of the old Bridge players and Mt pleasant kids. The last I checked only one kid in the DA used to play at CESA, more kids drive from Charleston and Columbia to play in the upstate and the premier teams you refer to as being watered down were not that good to begin with.

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Liverpool...Every sentence you said is incorrect. 4 kids in the development academy used to play for CESA and switched to the DA. Joe Amon Started on the US U-17 World cup team and is TopDrawerSoccers #10 player in the country, and is committed to UNC...I believe he is better than Cole. And Patrick Khouri is a 1996 which would place him on the U-16 DA team. This team is the first team in the country to make the playoffs this season. And at one point in the season were ranked #1 in the nation. His team would not stand a chance.
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Don't let yourself get drawn into this silly "debate." It's been done before and is irresolvable and meaningless.

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Score_a_goal, You know not what you speak, Seiler is much better than Amon, Top Drawer rankings are a joke they have Discoveries as the best in the state. Seiler committed to Georgetown (turned down UNC) and Khouri used to play with Amon on the same team because he was just that good he could play up (he happens to be in Catalonia right now playing soccer,where are the DA players). Besides Michele who played for CESA? And the DA is ranked #1 out of DA teams that makes them the best? Khouris team played the Dallas Texans DA this past year and destroyed them, how did the Charleston DA do against them?

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Another interesting sidebar here involves D.A.coaches( and they have some outstanding ones). Three that I know of(two that have talked to me personally)have said they will have to leave because of full time job considerations and family when the 10 month schedule starts.

It will be interesting to see the replacements as alot of the states top coaching heirarchy seems tapped out.

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When and where did CESA play the Texans' Development Academy team?

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The whole tit for tat arguments about "my dad is stronger than your dad" are pointless and demeaning and add nothing to the debate on 10 month Academy.

All the kids referenced....are superb players who would do well in any environment.

19 times out of 20 where Academy exists.....the better kids are playing there. There are exceptions. There are also areas like Greenville that aren't represented by Academy. Therefore a kid like Cole isn't in the Academy program.

Those exceptions or circumstances.....are real. If anyone thinks that Academy is exclusively the be all and end all...they are wrong. There are still kids out there who for a variety of reasons.....don't play Academy.

But they are exceptions.

Happy Daddy......my guess would be that the CESA team played the USYSA Dallas Texans. I have friends whose kids play at CESA (in other age groups) and they are still seeing the non-Academy teams of Academy clubs....at events lke Regionals or National League.

There are friendlies between Academy teams and non Academy teams. People need to be careful in reading too much into those. From experience.....my son's Academy team played Cobb 2 years ago and drew 2-2. It was 2-nil at the half, Academy, and the coaches pulled the first team off at half and played the second team in the second half. Cobb tied the game. My sons' R3 team played SCU Academy in a scrimmage last year (2010) in a scrimmage.....he wasn't there (my daughter got married that day) and lost 5 or 6 to
nothing. Outcome could well depend on how coaches view the scrimmage. The NM Academy coaches could have cared less about the outcome. We had a lull in our schedule and they wanted the kids to play.

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Between us guys, I've seen all of the kids mentioned play on MULTIPLE occasions and in various competitive settings. There is no monopoly on talent, coaching, etc. To make the case that one is "better" when they're ALL quite good (but not THAT good) borders on idiocy. To cite Top 100 lists crosses the border.

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Quote:

Another interesting sidebar here involves D.A.coaches( and they have some outstanding ones). Three that I know of(two that have talked to me personally)have said they will have to leave because of full time job considerations and family when the 10 month schedule starts.

It will be interesting to see the replacements as alot of the states top coaching heirarchy seems tapped out.




This is a legit issue......a lot of Academy clubs are using college coaches and I'm assuming that will end now. No doubt extending the season will also push some coaches out.

But it could also pull coaches in. We found Academy to be extremely well organized. I am sure given the visibility, level of play and level of pay.....Academy clubs will have no problem pulling in high level coaches, where needed.

Its an issue, not a concern, IMO.

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I know the competitiveness at the Academy level is unqestionable, but I would think that the gap between first and second team is small indeed because of the obvious talent.
I am not trying to pick on B.D.'s example of the Cobb scrimmage or the R3 scrimmage as I am sure his son is a fine player, but if one absent player can possibly make that kind of difference, well wow, I really don't know what to say.
Opportunities to shine in upper level anything(assuming talent is relatively close)because of absence, should produce a surprise or two--just ask Jeremy Lin.

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I probably shouldn't have mentioned my son in that example. He would have helped....but wouldn't have changed the essence of the game.

Cobb was better 2 years ago than his R3 team was. And SCU was probably a better Academy side last year than his Academy team from 2 years ago.

Confused?

How about this....this past Fall, his R3 team scrimmaged and beat twice......his Academy team.

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Cole Sieler is an incredible player. I am not questioning that at all. He could really have helped the u-18 academy team who struggled to score goals. But in my eyes, Joe is better. It doesnt matter whether you agree or disagree. Pat Khouri is also very good however, facts are he did not get selected to the residency team that Joe Amon started for. Therefore he is not on the same team, and is not playing up. Also, Erik Clark, Brock King, and Andrew Davis played for CESA and now all play major roles on the DA U-16's. And Evan Brandon left CESA to play for the DA but unfortunately left the team. If the CESA 95 boys beat the Dallas Texans DA then that is great for them. However I doubt that they played the development academy team. I would like to see proof of the game. And the Academy team in charleston pulls not only from charleston, it is a state wide team.

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Quote:



Quote:

3. What is a job of a coach?




Now THAT one depends on who you ask...many different stakeholders have different goals. The "job" of a US National Team coach might be perceived as very different from the "job" of a U18 Classic coach, or a high school coach, or a college coach, or an Academy coach, etc. I guess my best answer to that would be that the job of a coach is to best meet the needs of the program and the players.




I'll restate:

What is the job of a HS coach?

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The key phrase: "in my eyes."
In evaluating players, beauty is ALWAYS in the eye of the beholder.
That we are having this discussion points to the most important thread-related element: i.e., that there are several similarly valid venues for "development."
There is no single "right" way; or if there is, our USMNT hasn't found it yet, and is continuing to grope for answers. I'm not at all convinced that a 10-month Academy season is (or is not) the answer to Herr Klinsmann's need for better players.

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Quote:

High school is being cut out of the Big Picture, as in marginalized, not eradicated.




The Big Picture? For a kid that has a shot at a National Pool? No.

I haven't read an argument that didn't list mostly social reasons for HS soccer. The arguments for DA talk about player development.

If you were trying to get to the next level, do you want to be prepared?

Again, no one is eradicating or marginalizing HS soccer as a whole. They are offering services to the elite player that most HS programs can't offer. What HS coach would HONESTLY not want a player developing to move on to the next level?

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As to high school coaching, the good ones in all sports develop district-wide programs, including "feeder systems," that espouse consistently high principles of competition. They insist on accountability on the training ground, in games and in the classroom. They provide a nurturing, educational environment, and they put their kids in position to succeed.

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Friend: My son has "developed" in BOTH environments. The "social" aspect is a bonus.

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Quote:

Friend: My son has "developed" in BOTH environments. The "social" aspect is a bonus.




In all seriousness, I am happy that your son did develop in both situations

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Quote:

I probably shouldn't have mentioned my son in that example. He would have helped....but wouldn't have changed the essence of the game.

Cobb was better 2 years ago than his R3 team was. And SCU was probably a better Academy side last year than his Academy team from 2 years ago.

Confused?

How about this....this past Fall, his R3 team scrimmaged and beat twice......his Academy team.




Could some of this improvement be traced to the arrival of a non-academy player? The Brasilian Lucas (Clover HS)?


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NSF:

High school soccer has just been given the finger - that's not marginalizing it?

US Soccer is effectively saying, "If you're not in our system, we don't have time for you." If they were able to pick the most elite soccer players 100% of the time, this idea would be brilliant. But it's not brilliant because it closes the door to unknown potential.

My point is that I think it's better to have lots of avenues of development open rather than one. It's a better way to grow the sport in the long term. The players that are in the system right now may individually improve from the 10 month season, but there is also the possibility that as these kids age out of the system there will be fewer and fewer to replace them. Make the system more inclusive, rather than exclusive.

Certainly, boys in the Academy can choose the 10 month season or high school. America is all about opportunity. But what if a fantastic player does choose high school - is he still in the running for national pool, or even DI? Should he be? Doesn't that hack away at the elite pool if players choose to leave? When that happens it can water it down as well - does some player not as good get to take his spot? US Soccer may be betting that all players will go with the 10 month season, but if there are defections, this may not work out as planned.

This system may increase individual development, but it does nothing to increase the pool, and individual development has an expiration date.

A rising tide lifts all boats. We need more players to raise the level of all players. To me, that is the biggest difference between the US and other great soccer countries. We need more and more players coming from all directions to drive the development.

Therefore, unless we want to go all the way and totally copy the European system, I don't think we will see the results we are chasing. There is no reason that America should not be an awesome soccer powerhouse. We need to think about this long term and do it in a sustainable way. I fear that this decision makes the path to elite soccer more narrow, and will in the end be self-defeating.

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Evan Brandon moved back to Chicago. He is know with one of their DA teams.

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Quote:

NSF:

High school soccer has just been given the finger - that's not marginalizing it?




I don't agree with your assessment on the finger being given to HS soccer. Again, it's not like this will really have a major impact on HS soccer at all.

Quote:

US Soccer is effectively saying, "If you're not in our system, we don't have time for you." If they were able to pick the most elite soccer players 100% of the time, this idea would be brilliant. But it's not brilliant because it closes the door to unknown potential.




It would be unfair to make that judgement at this point in time. It hasn't even begun yet.

Quote:

My point is that I think it's better to have lots of avenues of development open rather than one. It's a better way to grow the sport in the long term. The players that are in the system right now may individually improve from the 10 month season, but there is also the possibility that as these kids age out of the system there will be fewer and fewer to replace them. Make the system more inclusive, rather than exclusive.




Would you mind giving a more concrete example?

Quote:




Certainly, boys in the Academy can choose the 10 month season or high school. America is all about opportunity. But what if a fantastic player does choose high school - is he still in the running for national pool, or even DI? Should he be? Doesn't that hack away at the elite pool if players choose to leave? When that happens it can water it down as well - does some player not as good get to take his spot? US Soccer may be betting that all players will go with the 10 month season, but if there are defections, this may not work out as planned.




Talent is talent. Although, it needs to be constantly pushed with coaching and playing against the highest level of competition. That is something that the DA can offer consistently that HS can't...at least not compared to the DAs.


Quote:

A rising tide lifts all boats. We need more players to raise the level of all players. To me, that is the biggest difference between the US and other great soccer countries. We need more and more players coming from all directions to drive the development.




Sounds good in theory. Only problem is that not everyone is as dedicated to achieving the next level.

Quote:

Therefore, unless we want to go all the way and totally copy the European system, I don't think we will see the results we are chasing. There is no reason that America should not be an awesome soccer powerhouse. We need to think about this long term and do it in a sustainable way. I fear that this decision makes the path to elite soccer more narrow, and will in the end be self-defeating.




Haven't given it a chance yet to say. We're not competing with American football on a global level, but we are with soccer. Therefore, we need to try and keep pushing the elite players. Think about it...did guys like Donovan and Oguchi rely on HS soccer for their development?

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Quote:

Quote:

I probably shouldn't have mentioned my son in that example. He would have helped....but wouldn't have changed the essence of the game.

Cobb was better 2 years ago than his R3 team was. And SCU was probably a better Academy side last year than his Academy team from 2 years ago.

Confused?

How about this....this past Fall, his R3 team scrimmaged and beat twice......his Academy team.




Could some of this improvement be traced to the arrival of a non-academy player? The Brasilian Lucas (Clover HS)?




Lucas made a huge difference. The other boys got better too. The boys were better than Cobb at u18.....not nearly as good as Cobb at u17.

This is a HS thread. Lucas is at Clover....and Clover will be an interesting matchup for the Mauldins and Irmos and Wando's. Lucas is sick off the dribble when isolated 1 v 1.

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Quote:

NSF:

High school soccer has just been given the finger - that's not marginalizing it?

US Soccer is effectively saying, "If you're not in our system, we don't have time for you." If they were able to pick the most elite soccer players 100% of the time, this idea would be brilliant. But it's not brilliant because it closes the door to unknown potential.

My point is that I think it's better to have lots of avenues of development open rather than one. It's a better way to grow the sport in the long term. The players that are in the system right now may individually improve from the 10 month season, but there is also the possibility that as these kids age out of the system there will be fewer and fewer to replace them. Make the system more inclusive, rather than exclusive.

Certainly, boys in the Academy can choose the 10 month season or high school. America is all about opportunity. But what if a fantastic player does choose high school - is he still in the running for national pool, or even DI? Should he be? Doesn't that hack away at the elite pool if players choose to leave? When that happens it can water it down as well - does some player not as good get to take his spot? US Soccer may be betting that all players will go with the 10 month season, but if there are defections, this may not work out as planned.

This system may increase individual development, but it does nothing to increase the pool, and individual development has an expiration date.

A rising tide lifts all boats. We need more players to raise the level of all players. To me, that is the biggest difference between the US and other great soccer countries. We need more and more players coming from all directions to drive the development.

Therefore, unless we want to go all the way and totally copy the European system, I don't think we will see the results we are chasing. There is no reason that America should not be an awesome soccer powerhouse. We need to think about this long term and do it in a sustainable way. I fear that this decision makes the path to elite soccer more narrow, and will in the end be self-defeating.




Jay Jay, you are correct that USSF should be focussed on growing the pool of youth players in this country. I wholeheartedly agree with that. But this issue of 10 month Academy has nothing to do with a rising tide lifting all boats.

This issue......is solely their approach towards dealing with the top 1-2% of players, which for sake of argument is the Academy program. There are players outside of that program who are still absolutely in their sights, such as a Cole Seilor. I think they realize that while Academy can cover 85 or 90% of the top 1%....there will still be flyers.

But regardless. This issue is independent of the rising tide argument, which everyone accepts.....them too.

So I think your point, while valid, is irrelevant to the debate of 10 month Academy. If a kid is a great player outside of Academy he will still be found. But for Academy players.....this is what they feel is best suited towards challenging, developing and identifying the top tier player.

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Some of your points are valid but the kid who left CESA and then DA did so because his dad is a basket case who tried to control everything his son did- he was and is a great kid. All of the teams are pretty much statewide but the issue still exists that they all miss a great deal of talent-the mindset of many in this country is that if you are not a great physical specimen you cant play-they dont look at small kids with skill who understand the game. I would venture to say that if Messi had grown up here the DA and residency program wouldnt have given him a second look-a small guy with a hormone problem that caused his growth to be stunted, most U16s could probably challenge him physically but he knows the game and when to hold the ball, when to pass it and how to go to space-most of the guys he plays against are bigger, faster and stronger but his combination of skill and knowledge wins out just about every time. He showed that to Klinsmans countrymen yesterday. Like Michael Roth said "we arent a team of great players but together we are a great team"

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I understand your point and in highschool that is probably true. But in the DA it is not. Koty Millard is no where near 6' tall and he is on the national team. Joe Amon, Devin Lameroux, and Rex Epps are all the same. None of them are over 6" tall or weigh over 165 lbs but they are all extremely effective for their teams. Your right, Messi is the best player in the world. If he came and played against the U-16 Academy players he would probably perform decently....

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Obviously there is a place for "little" guys in soccer. That said, EVERY team needs a certain "physical presence," no matter the raw size of it. All things equal (and they seldom are), I'll take the bigger kid every time.
The higher you climb on the competitive ladder, the more technically proficient (and or physically tough) the smaller player must be to thrive.

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Quote:

Haven't given it a chance yet to say. We're not competing with American football on a global level, but we are with soccer. Therefore, we need to try and keep pushing the elite players. Think about it...did guys like Donovan and Oguchi rely on HS soccer for their development?





Landon Donovan statistics:

High School: Named to the 1999 Parade Magazine High School All-American Team ... Also earned a 1998 NSCAA Youth All-American selection ... Transferred to Redlands East Valley High School in 1998, where he tallied 16 goals ... Named the League Most Valuable Player in 1997, scoring 17 goals.

Oguchi Onyewu played for Sherwood High School in MD in addition to FC Potomac and ODP.

They may not have relied on HS for their development, but they did keep it as part of their respective careers, and it didn't seem to hurt their development too much.


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Coach - You strike me as something of a logician. Surely you see the fallacy in your conclusion regarding Donavon and Onyewu?

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Quote:

Quote:

Haven't given it a chance yet to say. We're not competing with American football on a global level, but we are with soccer. Therefore, we need to try and keep pushing the elite players. Think about it...did guys like Donovan and Oguchi rely on HS soccer for their development?






They may not have relied on HS for their development,




They didn't rely on HS for their development. That is why they are where they are. That is why they went where they did for soccer.

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Depends...what are we perceiving as my conclusion?

A generalization based on two obviously outstanding examples? No, just a reply to those same specific examples in a previous post, with no guarantee that those two examples represent the typical blue-chip player and the typical high school programs.

The idea that Donovan and Onyewu would have still chosen high school if the DA had been an option at that point? Nope, no way to tell what those choices would have been at that point, and I wouldn't begin to assert an assumption.

The thought that Donovan and Onyewu reached the top of their games and would not have been further developed by something like the 10-month DA? No, again, no way to tell; although every athlete has some point of peak potential after which additional training has a much lessened effect, it's hard to know when the athlete has reached that peak unless fully pushed.

The thought that it was playing in high school that led to their development as elite players? No...as I said, they may not have relied on high school for their development. Both players had high-level club experience in addition to playing on their high school teams, so from the information available in this limited context, it's impossible to definitively say where they received the majority of their player development.

The fact that both players given as examples combined high-level club training and high school play as part of their collective experience, and both have achieved status as elite international players--therefore playing in high school did not prevent them from reaching that developmental level? That's not a conclusion; it's just an observation.


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"It didn't seem to hurt their development."

A version of post hoc ergo propter hoc. Maybe it hurt their development, maybe it didn't. We'll never know for sure.

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How many guiduance counselors or parents with kids with 1400-1500 SAT's......assuming the school doubled the breadth of AP classes that were available to a student, would counsel that student to take a CP class instead.

Nothing wrong with CP classes. My kids took plenty of them.

But a kid capable of earning A's in AP classes is probably better served academically by not taking CP classes. And my guess would be......that if they were looking at a Davidson or a Furman or a Duke or an Ivy league school those folks would strongly encourage the kids to not take CP or Honors classes if AP classes were available. In fact, they would probably downgrade a student who took CP or Honors classes in lieu of AP classes.

If this is untrue....let me know.

USSF = Harvard; 10 month Academy = AP class; Club/High school blend = CP or Honors; Player = student.

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Stick to soccer please.

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Just curious. Why do you think its different?

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An interesting, but not particularly apt, analogy.

The reality is, MANY "college prep" kids turn out to be higher achievers than their "Harvard" counterparts, for many of the same reasons. Among those: poor early evaluation methods, a better or more inspirational teacher/trainer, differing rates of physical/emotional maturity, the raw quality of each experience, etc.

A similar reality is that many kids benefit from a BLEND of "all of the above." Closing one door -- forcing kids to "make a choice" -- is not a constructive approach.

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"It didn't seem to hurt their development."

A version of post hoc ergo propter hoc. Maybe it hurt their development, maybe it didn't. We'll never know for sure.




Post hoc ergo propter hoc--"after this, therefore because of this." Also commonly known as faulty causality.

They played in high school, then they went on to be elite international players; therefore, playing in high school helped them to reach that level--was not my conclusion.

They played in high school, then they went on to be elite international players; therefore, playing in high school did not hurt their development too much--note that phrase--to achieve that level...THAT was my observation, and I stand by the logic.


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Quote:

An interesting, but not particularly apt, analogy.

The reality is, MANY "college prep" kids turn out to be higher achievers than their "Harvard" counterparts, for many of the same reasons. Among those: poor early evaluation methods, a better or more inspirational teacher/trainer, differing rates of physical/emotional maturity, the raw quality of each experience, etc.

A similar reality is that many kids benefit from a BLEND of "all of the above." Closing one door -- forcing kids to "make a choice" -- is not a constructive approach.




Having taught both, I can say I have had multiple students in CP classes who would stand a better chance of passing an AP exam than some in my AP classes. As you say, early tracking, different maturation rates, etc., but sometimes the high-flying CP kid gets overlooked as he/she matures, and the mediocre early-bloomer keeps the position.


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Ain't it the truth!

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BD...you speak the truth, as long as the student demonstrates success in those high-level classes. They may or may not be the ones with the greatest ability, but they demonstrate that they are the ones who are willing to challenge themselves most.

Still, in our schools we don't tell students that they either have to take all AP classes or they can't take any AP classes at all. We encourage them to take as many as they can, and we push them to challenge themselves, but we do give them leeway. The prevailing philosophy is that the more high-level, challenging classes a student can take, the more prepared he/she will be for the next level--much like the philosophy supporting the DA. This is tempered by the accompanying philosophy that taking some AP classes is better for the student than taking none, and if we preclude AP students from taking any CP classes, there would be fewer who would be willing to commit to the AP curriculum, and therefore more students who would take no AP classes at all.

My question of the DA has never been whether it has great value to the elite player who wishes to gain admission to the Harvards of the soccer world. Quite obviously, it does. My question is, could the DA find a way to provide more than one option--a 10-month season for those who are fully committed, and a shorter season to provide that same top-level training to some of our potential high-flyers who show great promise, but haven't reached the point in their lives where they are driven to commmit to the exclusion of all else?

Enough devil's advocate for now, as much fun as it is...cards on the table. If having a player who misses his high school season to play full-time in the DA is sad, how much sadder for the sport is it if many more high-potential players are NOT encouraged to even try for that level, because it means they are automatically lost to their school coaches and teammates?


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Can anyone say Jeremy Lin?

But we've said from the start that there are exceptions. Lots of 'em. I think I heard on The Herd today....that there have been 3 NBA players from Harvard and either 7 or 8 Presidents.

Playing basketball in the Ivy League does not preclude you from an NBA career. But your odds are better off at an SEC or ACC or Big East school.

But we're off topic aren't we?

Again, this argement centers in on the USSF decsion to extend the Academy season to a 10 month season and preclude HS involvement.

Be honest here......what offends you?

Is it the expansion of the Academy season? Or the explicit precluding of HS soccer for Academy players?

If USSF expanded the Academy season and left the issue of HS play alone.....leaving it to the player and his Academy and HS coach to manage......does that alleviate the concerns on the forum?

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BD...you speak the truth, as long as the student demonstrates success in those high-level classes. They may or may not be the ones with the greatest ability, but they demonstrate that they are the ones who are willing to challenge themselves most.

Still, in our schools we don't tell students that they either have to take all AP classes or they can't take any AP classes at all. We encourage them to take as many as they can, and we push them to challenge themselves, but we do give them leeway. The prevailing philosophy is that the more high-level, challenging classes a student can take, the more prepared he/she will be for the next level--much like the philosophy supporting the DA. This is tempered by the accompanying philosophy that taking some AP classes is better for the student than taking none, and if we preclude AP students from taking any CP classes, there would be fewer who would be willing to commit to the AP curriculum, and therefore more students who would take no AP classes at all.

My question of the DA has never been whether it has great value to the elite player who wishes to gain admission to the Harvards of the soccer world. Quite obviously, it does. My question is, could the DA find a way to provide more than one option--a 10-month season for those who are fully committed, and a shorter season to provide that same top-level training to some of our potential high-flyers who show great promise, but haven't reached the point in their lives where they are driven to commmit to the exclusion of all else?

Enough devil's advocate for now, as much fun as it is...cards on the table. If having a player who misses his high school season to play full-time in the DA is sad, how much sadder for the sport is it if many more high-potential players are NOT encouraged to even try for that level, because it means they are automatically lost to their school coaches and teammates?




A well written response. Thank you. But you mention sad and sadder....and I just think thats a little overwrought. Stuff happens and kids adjust. Adults tend to obsess about things more than kids do. I wish my son could have played more basketball but the conflict with plain old club soccer messed that up and his school bball career started and ended with 7th grade. He never looked back, never missed a beat.

This may have all been more palatable had USSF merely extended the season and left the HS piece to the individuals involved. But what would have probably happened.....were big chunks of rosters of kids trying to do both and either getting hurt, sick of the sport, or cutting corners on Academy training in order to keep their irons hot enough on the HS end.

10 month Academy is the right thing to do for the talented and motivated kid. Those that are truly torn....will need to make a choice. And thats ok. Some kids will drop out of Academy and invariably one of them will turn into a Jeremy Lin story. And that will be great!!

Kids from Harvard can play in the NBA and kids from non-Academy teams can play in the ACC and/or the MLS.

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"Offends" is the wrong word, for me anyway.
What "bothers" me is the presumption that Academy training is the single best avenue to USMNT success (which we all KNOW is the primary reason this is being done), combined with the 6-months good, 10-months-better logic.
Guess I've seen too many mediocre Academy programs, and too many productive high school and college programs, to believe that one way is inherently "better" than the other.

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This has been very interesting, but let me point out a few things that have been overlooked by all this enthusiastic conversation. Many if not most kids get involved and the first thing that keeps them coming back is friendship. The peer pressure that will be on these players is something that is not being addressed. I'm not only talking about the direct pressure but the pressure applied by coaches HS and club. I have seen it as a parent, working on a HS staff, and also with a club. The costs of being with an elite club is multiplied with the travel (cost has been spoken about) required. I have also seen coaches blackball players because they have opted to take a break for whatever reason. One actually said that she will pay for her disicion not to play. These young men and women have and will make sacrifices to play, but until we can remove the meddling and politics of the parent and coaches they don't stand a chance. Maybe we should approach this like ancient Sparta, take the kids away at birth and train them to be warriors for the state, then everyone can be happy. Please remember that they are still kids and learning the lessons of the world. lets guide them educate them but they are the ones that will live the path they choose. Youth sports are still for the kids, thats whey we became involved was for the kids right or are we trying to live thru them as parents. I would ask my kids what makes a good player and what makes a great player? A good play can do many things but a great player not only can do that, but makes all the players around them better. ITS FOR THE KIDS!!!!!!


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Just curious.....how many mediocre Academy training sessions have you been to?

While I appreciate your honesty, we just have to flat out disagree. My experience over the last couple of years tells me that Academy training and Academy league play is night and day different from club training and Region 3 play. There are exceptions.....out of the what, 10 R3PL East teams in the 93 boys.....I felt both CESA Premier and Florida Rush would be solid competitively in Academy. Not great, not awful. Solid teams. I didn't see one other team in that age group that I felt could consistently compete at the Academy level on a day in day out basis. Again, I'm not talking about getting stoked up to scrimmage an Academy team that may or may not be as motivated to play you. I'm talking playing 30+ games. Two teams out of 10.

We're not even talking HS at this point. We're comparing Academy to R3PLE play. No doubt....that there are a handful of HS programs in this state who boast similar levels of play. I loved watching the Northwestern boys teams from a few years ago with Enzo and Alex and Ricky and Dennis and Shawn and crowd. Great team!!! But the only other team in the region who could stay within 5 goals was Fort Mill.

Academy is inherently better than HS for developing players. If you really don't believe that....

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Going forward, are there any answers to these questions:
What will be the methods of assessment? When should we see the fruits of this approach? Has US Soccer outlined specific timelines and goals to be reached?

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"Offends" is the wrong word, for me anyway.
What "bothers" me is the presumption that Academy training is the single best avenue to USMNT success (which we all KNOW is the primary reason this is being done), combined with the 6-months good, 10-months-better logic.
Guess I've seen too many mediocre Academy programs, and too many productive high school and college programs, to believe that one way is inherently "better" than the other.


Exactly. You don't see the top basketball people telling people to move to AAU year round if you are a star (and there are a lot of really bad high school basketball coaches). In fact, Georgetown has a freshman on their team who never played AAU ball. If you're good, you're good. Other sports just do a better job of identifying talent (someone like Anthony Davis, a late bloomer who is going to be the #1 pick in the NBA draft, would have never made it in soccer because he wasn't good until his senior season). High school has many benefits, including forcing the top players to take over games. To act like there is only one way to get to the top, which USSF is certainly doing, is incorrect. It's ok though, we can continue to watch our U17 National Team embarrass themselves at the World Cup to show how much better our top young players are than previous times due to the new fad.

What makes me laugh is how all the DA team statements I've read make it sound like they had no choice in the matter and this move was forced upon them, and then the USSF said the teams passed the move overwhelmingly.

We really need to stop trying to emulate other countries and come up with our own method. But since we do copy so much, why is it that we are still pay to play?

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This has been very interesting, but let me point out a few things that have been overlooked by all this enthusiastic conversation. Many if not most kids get involved and the first thing that keeps them coming back is friendship. The peer pressure that will be on these players is something that is not being addressed. I'm not only talking about the direct pressure but the pressure applied by coaches HS and club. I have seen it as a parent, working on a HS staff, and also with a club. The costs of being with an elite club is multiplied with the travel (cost has been spoken about) required. I have also seen coaches blackball players because they have opted to take a break for whatever reason. One actually said that she will pay for her disicion not to play. These young men and women have and will make sacrifices to play, but until we can remove the meddling and politics of the parent and coaches they don't stand a chance. Maybe we should approach this like ancient Sparta, take the kids away at birth and train them to be warriors for the state, then everyone can be happy. Please remember that they are still kids and learning the lessons of the world. lets guide them educate them but they are the ones that will live the path they choose. Youth sports are still for the kids, thats whey we became involved was for the kids right or are we trying to live thru them as parents. I would ask my kids what makes a good player and what makes a great player? A good play can do many things but a great player not only can do that, but makes all the players around them better. ITS FOR THE KIDS!!!!!!




Sorry.

If a high school coach is worth a lick he will support the kid in the decision that is in the best interests of the player. Our HS has lost a couple of kids to Academy. The coach wished them well......he understood what it offered them. Would our school have had a better school team if all possible players played? Of course!!! But he coached the kids he had and understood why, on the ones he didn't.

All the "peer" pressure is really misguided parental or adult pressure. Most kids are chill.....their buddies are their buddies regardless of what sport they play or what team they play for.

9 times out of 10 the issues you speak of.......are the words or actions of a whacked parent, who wants to impose his preferences and choices on everyone else.

USSF is NOT saying that carded soccer players can't play HS. They are saying....that they have a program that they believe is the best method for training and developing the best soccer players. And that this program is going to be 10 months long.

If the "cost" of participating is too high.....then the kid or the parent should walk away and take an alternate path. Play for CESA or Mount Pleasant. Work your tail off. It will work out for you.

But playing in Academy will require the committment.

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Did NOT say Academy isn't inherently better (or worse).

I AM saying that you'd be surprised how many Academy sides are pretty mediocre, and don't NECESSARILY represent a great option. Over the last several years, I've seen about 30 different Academy sides play -- including a bunch of MLS-affiliated Academy sides -- and 6-8 train. I've seen how the kids are coached/transported/housed/fed/cared for (by various programs) "on the road." So I'm not "assuming" here. I have seen/watched/evaluated.

"LoveIt" has a great point. The pressure from coaches is above and beyond reasonable. Kids are recruited from a very young age to play for this or that club, Academy, H.S. side, etc. Parents buy in to the "college scholarship" myth, then spend what amnounts to a fair-sized college fund on training. That's one CHOICE! And choice is they key.

The "best interests" of some kids are met by Academy.
The "best interests" of others are met by high school.
And, at the core of this discussion, the "best interests" of yet others are met by a reasonable combination of BOTH.

The proposed new format is in the best interests of a USMNT hierarchy that, through many regimes, has fallen short of its stated goal to be truly competitive at the highest international level. Instead of admitting personal shortcomings, the hierarchy targets and tweaks a "system." Perhaps, someday, we'll stumble onto the right developmental "system." More likely, we'll stumble across a golden generation of players, then mistakenly presume that whatever training produced "them" is the single, right, way.

In reality, there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat.

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Quote:

Quote:

"Offends" is the wrong word, for me anyway.
What "bothers" me is the presumption that Academy training is the single best avenue to USMNT success (which we all KNOW is the primary reason this is being done), combined with the 6-months good, 10-months-better logic.
Guess I've seen too many mediocre Academy programs, and too many productive high school and college programs, to believe that one way is inherently "better" than the other.


Exactly. You don't see the top basketball people telling people to move to AAU year round if you are a star (and there are a lot of really bad high school basketball coaches). In fact, Georgetown has a freshman on their team who never played AAU ball. If you're good, you're good. Other sports just do a better job of identifying talent (someone like Anthony Davis, a late bloomer who is going to be the #1 pick in the NBA draft, would have never made it in soccer because he wasn't good until his senior season). High school has many benefits, including forcing the top players to take over games. To act like there is only one way to get to the top, which USSF is certainly doing, is incorrect. It's ok though, we can continue to watch our U17 National Team embarrass themselves at the World Cup to show how much better our top young players are than previous times due to the new fad.

What makes me laugh is how all the DA team statements I've read make it sound like they had no choice in the matter and this move was forced upon them, and then the USSF said the teams passed the move overwhelmingly.

We really need to stop trying to emulate other countries and come up with our own method. But since we do copy so much, why is it that we are still pay to play?




You can't compare basketball with soccer. The depth and breadth of player pools are radically different, as are the depth and breadth of coaching qualifications in the two sports.

I'm sure there are good basketball coaches in England or Germany. But my guess is the average coach is probably not comparable to what we have here. Now soccer coaches in those countries......I have no doubt that the average 40 year old dad there knows more about the game than a significant number of HS coaches here.

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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

"Offends" is the wrong word, for me anyway.
What "bothers" me is the presumption that Academy training is the single best avenue to USMNT success (which we all KNOW is the primary reason this is being done), combined with the 6-months good, 10-months-better logic.
Guess I've seen too many mediocre Academy programs, and too many productive high school and college programs, to believe that one way is inherently "better" than the other.


Exactly. You don't see the top basketball people telling people to move to AAU year round if you are a star (and there are a lot of really bad high school basketball coaches). In fact, Georgetown has a freshman on their team who never played AAU ball. If you're good, you're good. Other sports just do a better job of identifying talent (someone like Anthony Davis, a late bloomer who is going to be the #1 pick in the NBA draft, would have never made it in soccer because he wasn't good until his senior season). High school has many benefits, including forcing the top players to take over games. To act like there is only one way to get to the top, which USSF is certainly doing, is incorrect. It's ok though, we can continue to watch our U17 National Team embarrass themselves at the World Cup to show how much better our top young players are than previous times due to the new fad.

What makes me laugh is how all the DA team statements I've read make it sound like they had no choice in the matter and this move was forced upon them, and then the USSF said the teams passed the move overwhelmingly.

We really need to stop trying to emulate other countries and come up with our own method. But since we do copy so much, why is it that we are still pay to play?




You can't compare basketball with soccer. The depth and breadth of player pools are radically different, as are the depth and breadth of coaching qualifications in the two sports.

I'm sure there are good basketball coaches in England or Germany. But my guess is the average coach is probably not comparable to what we have here. Now soccer coaches in those countries......I have no doubt that the average 40 year old dad there knows more about the game than a significant number of HS coaches here.


Our top youth soccer coaches here are more qualified than a lot of AAU basketball coaches, yet basketball still produces far better players. Which goes back to my original point pages ago, coaching is very overrated in terms of developing stars. The reason we turn out basketball superstars isn't because of some fantastic development system or some amazing AAU coach, it is because the kid plays 6+ hours a day 7 days a week. The reason we don't turn out soccer superstars isn't because a lack of top tier coaches, it is because most top players don't practice often on their own.

Until we get inner city kids playing soccer, which I don't foresee happening any time soon if ever, we won't be a soccer power...period. Those are the kids that will put in the work needed to be a superstar, not some upper middle class kid whose parents pay thousands a year to play and he goes home and plays video games after practice. Our current USMNT coach said at the 2010 World Cup the reason we are behind is because we don't have inner city kids playing soccer. Is the change in the DA going to change that? lol. I'm assuming due to the extra four months, it is only going to get more expensive...

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Did NOT say Academy isn't inherently better (or worse).

I AM saying that you'd be surprised how many Academy sides are pretty mediocre, and don't NECESSARILY represent a great option. Over the last several years, I've seen about 30 different Academy sides play -- including a bunch of MLS-affiliated Academy sides -- and 6-8 train. I've seen how the kids are coached/transported/housed/fed/cared for (by various programs) "on the road." So I'm not "assuming" here. I have seen/watched/evaluated.

"LoveIt" has a great point. The pressure from coaches is above and beyond reasonable. Kids are recruited from a very young age to play for this or that club, Academy, H.S. side, etc. Parents buy in to the "college scholarship" myth, then spend what amnounts to a fair-sized college fund on training. That's one CHOICE! And choice is they key.

The "best interests" of some kids are met by Academy.
The "best interests" of others are met by high school.
And, at the core of this discussion, the "best interests" of yet others are met by a reasonable combination of BOTH.

The proposed new format is in the best interests of a USMNT hierarchy that, through many regimes, has fallen short of its stated goal to be truly competitive at the highest international level. Instead of admitting personal shortcomings, the hierarchy targets and tweaks a "system." Perhaps, someday, we'll stumble onto the right developmental "system." More likely, we'll stumble across a golden generation of players, then mistakenly presume that whatever training produced "them" is the single, right, way.

In reality, there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat.





I agree with your last couple of paragraphs. Unfortunately life doesn't always allow a smorgasboard of choices or options. I too share a distrust of bureaucracy, including soccer bureaucracy. But I really liked the Academy program and think that they are "on to" something.

My son benefited soccer wise by playing R3 in the Fall and Academy in the winter/spring. He was absoltuely sharper and absoltuely benefitted by playing R3 in the fall instead of HS. I saw him grow as a player from this approach.

Kids that are diehard soccer players will benefit from 10 month Academy. I guarantee it.

Now...these guys (Claudia Reyna, et al) aren't developing a roadmap for life. They aren't directly interested in kids being well rounded or how kids can positively impact other kids by playing in HS. They aren't focussed on that at all. They are only interested....in figuring out how to improve the depth and breadth of the elite player pool. Thats it.

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Actually, there are many brilliant basketball coaching minds in Europe. The reason you don't see/hear many of them at the highest level here is the language barrier.
I must say, though, that I find the automatic connection between a German/British/Spanish/Italian accent and unique coaching insight more than a bit presumptuous.
Guess I just know too many "Americans" who know absolutely nothing about baseball/basketball/football to assume we're inherently qualified to coach those sports in Europe.

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Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

"Offends" is the wrong word, for me anyway.
What "bothers" me is the presumption that Academy training is the single best avenue to USMNT success (which we all KNOW is the primary reason this is being done), combined with the 6-months good, 10-months-better logic.
Guess I've seen too many mediocre Academy programs, and too many productive high school and college programs, to believe that one way is inherently "better" than the other.


Exactly. You don't see the top basketball people telling people to move to AAU year round if you are a star (and there are a lot of really bad high school basketball coaches). In fact, Georgetown has a freshman on their team who never played AAU ball. If you're good, you're good. Other sports just do a better job of identifying talent (someone like Anthony Davis, a late bloomer who is going to be the #1 pick in the NBA draft, would have never made it in soccer because he wasn't good until his senior season). High school has many benefits, including forcing the top players to take over games. To act like there is only one way to get to the top, which USSF is certainly doing, is incorrect. It's ok though, we can continue to watch our U17 National Team embarrass themselves at the World Cup to show how much better our top young players are than previous times due to the new fad.

What makes me laugh is how all the DA team statements I've read make it sound like they had no choice in the matter and this move was forced upon them, and then the USSF said the teams passed the move overwhelmingly.

We really need to stop trying to emulate other countries and come up with our own method. But since we do copy so much, why is it that we are still pay to play?




You can't compare basketball with soccer. The depth and breadth of player pools are radically different, as are the depth and breadth of coaching qualifications in the two sports.

I'm sure there are good basketball coaches in England or Germany. But my guess is the average coach is probably not comparable to what we have here. Now soccer coaches in those countries......I have no doubt that the average 40 year old dad there knows more about the game than a significant number of HS coaches here.


Our top youth soccer coaches here are more qualified than a lot of AAU basketball coaches, yet basketball still produces far better players. Which goes back to my original point pages ago, coaching is very overrated in terms of developing stars. The reason we turn out basketball superstars isn't because of some fantastic development system or some amazing AAU coach, it is because the kid plays 6+ hours a day 7 days a week. The reason we don't turn out soccer superstars isn't because a lack of top tier coaches, it is because most top players don't practice often on their own.

Until we get inner city kids playing soccer, which I don't foresee happening any time soon if ever, we won't be a soccer power...period. Those are the kids that will put in the work needed to be a superstar, not some upper middle class kid whose parents pay thousands a year to play and he goes home and plays video games after practice. Our current USMNT coach said at the 2010 World Cup the reason we are behind is because we don't have inner city kids playing soccer. Is the change in the DA going to change that? lol. I'm assuming due to the extra four months, it is only going to get more expensive...




No doubt that our top youth soccer coaches are more qualified than a lot of AAU coaches. But I would doubt that the average HS soccer coach is as qualified as the average AAU coach. I would doubt....that the average HS soccer coach is as qualified as the average HS basketball coach.

For every Shilo Tisdale or Dom Wren, there are 10 guys out there that are either posers.... or asst football coaches collecting the $1800 stipend.

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Actually, there are many brilliant basketball coaching minds in Europe. The reason you don't see/hear many of them at the highest level here is the language barrier.
I must say, though, that I find the automatic connection between a German/British/Spanish/Italian accent and unique coaching insight more than a bit presumptuous.
Guess I just know too many "Americans" who know absolutely nothing about baseball/basketball/football to assume we're inherently qualified to coach those sports in Europe.




Of course there are!! There just aren't many. Certainly not when compared to a sport like soccer.

Doesn't necessarily come down to coaching insight so much as it does understanding the game. I would think that an American kid who grew up playing baseball in the back yard and little league from the age of 5 and continued on thru HS baseball....watching it on tv all the time, grew up going to Braves games a couple of times a year.....could spit out the starting lineup and batting averages of his team..........probably has a reasonably solid understanding of the game.

That understanding and cultural awareness exists in this country for baseball and basketball and football. And probably NASCAR. jk.

We're not there for soccer. With the growth of the game and immigration we may be less than a generation away though.

The average English kid or German kid o Italian kid grew up playing soccer and seeing it everywhere. Their Elite coach may be no better than ours, but there average.......is better.

Thats my point.

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"Offends" is the wrong word, for me anyway.
What "bothers" me is the presumption that Academy training is the single best avenue to USMNT success (which we all KNOW is the primary reason this is being done), combined with the 6-months good, 10-months-better logic.
Guess I've seen too many mediocre Academy programs, and too many productive high school and college programs, to believe that one way is inherently "better" than the other.


Exactly. You don't see the top basketball people telling people to move to AAU year round if you are a star (and there are a lot of really bad high school basketball coaches). In fact, Georgetown has a freshman on their team who never played AAU ball. If you're good, you're good. Other sports just do a better job of identifying talent (someone like Anthony Davis, a late bloomer who is going to be the #1 pick in the NBA draft, would have never made it in soccer because he wasn't good until his senior season). High school has many benefits, including forcing the top players to take over games. To act like there is only one way to get to the top, which USSF is certainly doing, is incorrect. It's ok though, we can continue to watch our U17 National Team embarrass themselves at the World Cup to show how much better our top young players are than previous times due to the new fad.

What makes me laugh is how all the DA team statements I've read make it sound like they had no choice in the matter and this move was forced upon them, and then the USSF said the teams passed the move overwhelmingly.

We really need to stop trying to emulate other countries and come up with our own method. But since we do copy so much, why is it that we are still pay to play?




You can't compare basketball with soccer. The depth and breadth of player pools are radically different, as are the depth and breadth of coaching qualifications in the two sports.

I'm sure there are good basketball coaches in England or Germany. But my guess is the average coach is probably not comparable to what we have here. Now soccer coaches in those countries......I have no doubt that the average 40 year old dad there knows more about the game than a significant number of HS coaches here.


Our top youth soccer coaches here are more qualified than a lot of AAU basketball coaches, yet basketball still produces far better players. Which goes back to my original point pages ago, coaching is very overrated in terms of developing stars. The reason we turn out basketball superstars isn't because of some fantastic development system or some amazing AAU coach, it is because the kid plays 6+ hours a day 7 days a week. The reason we don't turn out soccer superstars isn't because a lack of top tier coaches, it is because most top players don't practice often on their own.

Until we get inner city kids playing soccer, which I don't foresee happening any time soon if ever, we won't be a soccer power...period. Those are the kids that will put in the work needed to be a superstar, not some upper middle class kid whose parents pay thousands a year to play and he goes home and plays video games after practice. Our current USMNT coach said at the 2010 World Cup the reason we are behind is because we don't have inner city kids playing soccer. Is the change in the DA going to change that? lol. I'm assuming due to the extra four months, it is only going to get more expensive...




No doubt that our top youth soccer coaches are more qualified than a lot of AAU coaches. But I would doubt that the average HS soccer coach is as qualified as the average AAU coach. I would doubt....that the average HS soccer coach is as qualified as the average HS basketball coach.

For every Shilo Tisdale or Dom Wren, there are 10 guys out there that are either posers.... or asst football coaches collecting the $1800 stipend.


You missed my point. We have a lot of extremely good soccer coaches, and they have yet to make a difference (like I said earlier, our U17 team was embarrassingly bad for how much progress we are supposed to be making). In the end, it boils down to who is playing the sport and not who is coaching it (which is why I don't think banning HS is going to change much for our top players). The soccer players in this country simply don't work hard enough for us to be a global power. I don't care what system we change to every 5 years, it is never going to be successful until we get inner city kids participating. And when that happens, the system won't make those kids successful, the work they put in will but the system will get the credit.

Regardless of the developmental system we are using, 18 year old kids from Brazil, Argentina, England, Spain, Netherlands, etc. will have played much, much, much more soccer than ours by that point. That's the difference.

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The truly interesting side of this -- assuming it comes to pass -- will be whether the number and quality of Academy sides actually DECLINES in the wake of it.

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I've not heard what the training difference is in the Academy. Is there some magic formula they are following that is a lot different than your standard top tier boys teams? Was this training kept from the players when they were playing on the regular R3 teams? I know the ECNL on the girls side, the training is the same- just more expensive. Going to 10 months does not help unless the training is so much better than high school. There will be a lot of regrets through a players life, I think this HS decision may mean more regrets

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The truly interesting side of this -- assuming it comes to pass -- will be whether the number and quality of Academy sides actually DECLINES in the wake of it.




I partially agree. I do expect the number of Academy programs to shrink. They may shift first...then shrink. But I expect the quality to improve.

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It was just too much to quote!!!

I agree with you....that the average soccer player in this country doesn't work as hard as the average soccer player in a "soccer" country.

Thats why.....I believe the 10 month Academy is a good thing for the top player. Kids will develop better when they are training with and against kids who work just as hard as they do. And you are right...the average player here doesn't work hard enough at improving his game.

Also agree that many of our best athletes never seriously consider soccer. But thats not a reason not to try and focus on what we do have.

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firsttouch ...

Good question. The current SC United staff includes a mix of folks, including (heaven forbid!!!) a high school coach. Each of the fellows is a capable trainer. The larger benefit though, comes through training with/against high-level players.

Many of the current Mount Pleasant crop were developed as "prospects" by Kian Brownlee, CESA, or a combination of both. Those at Wando have benefited from exposure to Shilo Tisdale and the environment he creates.

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Big Daddy:

We actually agree on a lot of this. I would say this, though. If mine spent as much time on the game as he does in a car or bus, he'd be an even better player.

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Coach - it is fallacious to say that something that didn't happen had (or didn't have) any level of impact. It's unknowable. One can't say how much better those players might have been.

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Which is why we are only making observations on things that DID happen. Those players DID have high-level club training, they DID also play at their respective high schools, and they DID become elite international players. Observing this, it's perfectly logical to conclude that what DID happen, while it may or may not have been universally beneficial, was not sufficiently detrimental to prevent them from reaching their current well-respected level of development.

Nobody ever said they might not have been even better players in another environment; that, as you say, is unknowable. Therefore, the argument that playing high school did not prevent them from reaching their goals is more logically sound than the argument that playing in the DA would have helped them more. The former is based entirely on the observable; the latter, despite being entirely plausible, is based on the theoretical.

Back to you.


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Academy changes are all about training - TopDrawerSoccer.com

Taking that step could alienate some, as the ten-month requirement means no high school soccer for some of the best of the best.

But, as Reyna points out, that stipulation may only impact one percent of those playing boys high school soccer, and the decision was made with a majority of Development Academy clubs advocating it.

"The support of our clubs was huge throughout this process of going ten months and following it," he said. "It was a lot to do with them and what we heard in terms of an overwhelming amount of [clubs] having the players with them more often and going to a ten-month season."

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Quote:

Going forward, are there any answers to these questions:
What will be the methods of assessment? When should we see the fruits of this approach? Has US Soccer outlined specific timelines and goals to be reached?




So I take it no one knows of any concrete objectives by which the success can be measured?

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What is the estimated cost for a player to participate in Academy for one ten-month season, including fees, estimated travel expenses, equipment and uniform costs, etc.?

And for South Carolina players who can not afford these fees, how many scholarship spots are available to be on the South Carolina teams?

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Fan 8--Calculators still burning up trying to answer your post. Meanwhile, I have been watching this thread develope and I know most people will say that I am being unneedlessly critical,but I just don't get it.
The birth of DA seems to almost perfectly coincide with the highwater mark for our MNT. The Confederations Cup saw us dismantle World #1 and now defending World Cup champs, Spain and lose a heartbreaker to 5 time champ Brasil, and this is the model we choose to move forward?
The entire model is full of contradiction as Klinsman screams for inner city involvement, yet is edorsing something that virtually guarantees that can't happen.
Our own local DA tells us it fought hard against the 10 month plan, yet the National DA states the vote was overwelmingly unanimous. I myself posted on this board last May that an email was already in the works for DA players regarding HS.
By the admission of several DA supporters in this thread ,they anticipate a decrease in DA players and clubs when decisions have to be made in September--so the few will be fewer and the pool will get smaller.
A strong smell of $ and profit is in the air and it has the oder of exclusion.
Look at the early lives of Georgie Best and Pele. As you see, they did not come from privledged backgrounds and thankfully,someone saw potential and phone calls were made.
The posters here that have addressed inner city kids(just like Klinsman) are right on target, which this model is not.
No, I don't have all of the answers, but it seems to me that the old club systems that produced the vast majority of that C.C. team wasn't a total flop.
I hope I am wrong, but I think this train wreck is now on fire.

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