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the parents are more the problem than bad refs
stop bashing and encourage your player to give it their all and rise above bad calls
this, its sports & you have to live with bad/missed calls in every sport. refs don't get up in the morning wanting to make a bad call. for every fan that agrees with a call, theres a fan across the field that doesn't, go figure.
regarding the quick kick, some experienced refs will overlook the 10yd rule because that restart player decided his team had advantage with the quick kick.
Again.... no a foul is not always a foul wherever it happens. The question you SHOULD ask is was the same apparent foul called or ignored earlier in the match. What a fan, a coach, or a player thinks is a foul does not matter, it is what the referee believes is a foul.
Next time you are at a match don't judge what the referee calls based on what you think the foul is, judge if what he called in the first minute was the same as what he called in the 40th or 80th minute. Baseball players know that the first inning is for catchers and pitchers to determine what the umpire's strike zone is. Every umpire has a different zone, and as long as its consistant in that game the players don't mind.
There are plenty of times when I will call or not call something in a game and tell the players that I called it 10 minutes ago, or you did the same thing that your opponent did. The best is when players think something should be called and I tell them that I didn't call it 5 minutes ago so I am not going to call it now. Experienced players will understand this and adjust. Fans and coaches are clueless and have no concept of what is going on or what is being said, they just react to what they see and most of the time they are not sure of what they just saw.
Huh? Listen, I'm sure you're an experienced ref but soccer is not baseball. Baseball is not a contact sport. The strike zone is arbitrary because it happens quicker and in a position that no one else can accurately interpret. What happens if a pitcher intentionally hits a batter? He's tossed after a warning...sometimes without one if it's deemed exceptionally egregious. I've seen a game in soccer where a team fouled another over 18 times and no one received a yellow card or even a talking to. They also let 8th graders play varsity baseball at the high school level. To compare the strike zone to soccer is ridiculous.
Soccer is a contact sport and the PLAYERS have to be protected. This is a sport where a 100 lbs. 14 yr old can be seriously injured by a 180 lbs. 18 year old if a referee will let them get away with it. This isn't the college level or professional level. They are developed and are adults. I don't care about your agenda to let things slide because you're "trying to be consistent". If my best (or worst) player is clipped from behind and goes tumbling to the ground and there is no call because you don't feel like raising your whistle in a 15-0 game or you feel like giving a goal kick instead of a corner kick because one team is drubbing some other team 10-0 or you decide a handball isn't a handball in the box because you don't want the other team to score again or you don't know the difference between a bad throw in and a legal one or you decide to call it tight around a winning teams 18 yard box so the "other team gets a chance"...you're going to hear about it. If a player is fouled, injured, and there is proper execution of the laws of the game then that's fine. Injuries are part of it. As coaches, we feel that a certain amount of responsibility for our players' health and safety, even more so than our teams capability to win. If I knock you in the teeth in the street are you going to be satisfied when the cop says "Well, I didn't arrest that guy 5 minutes ago who hit the other person. So, sorry."?
IF YOU CONSISTENTLY WON'T MAKE A CALL, YOU'RE NOT A GOOD REFEREE. We live in the age of youtube and video cameras on cell phones. If you let a game get out of hand or you let a player sucker punch someone and get away with it. If you "fail" to make a call because "you didn't call it 5 minutes ago" and someone gets hurt or it costs somebody the game and you're in the wrong. It's now on you. If you're a coach and aren't filming your games to send to the high school league, you need to start right now. We're going to protect our players even if it means sending in game film for a referee. You're getting paid for your time and it's a lot more than most of us make per day. You are providing a service as a referee and are entrusted with the safety of our players and the sanctity of the game. Act accordingly. The rule book is online. I keep a pocket copy of it available with me so I can quote it like scripture from the sidelines. Call me Coach Jesus.
A foul IS a foul no matter the minute, the score, the team, the difference in ability level, the gender, the age, etc. A FOUL IS A FOUL.
Last edited by shut^&play; 03/29/12 03:52 AM.
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I agree 100% S UP and P. ARRGY, if you ignore a tree falling in the woods, did it fall? Yes, it did fall. A foul is a foul!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Knocking a 9th grader down from behind, just because the ball is gone, and the kid is in the box does not mean it is not a foul, to me that means the ref wants to have control of the outcome of the game, not the other way. If it happens call it, period, the kids WILL adjust. PROTECT the kids MR and MRS ref, PLEASE.
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Throw In
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Quote:
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the parents are more the problem than bad refs
stop bashing and encourage your player to give it their all and rise above bad calls
this, its sports & you have to live with bad/missed calls in every sport. refs don't get up in the morning wanting to make a bad call. for every fan that agrees with a call, theres a fan across the field that doesn't, go figure.
regarding the quick kick, some experienced refs will overlook the 10yd rule because that restart player decided his team had advantage with the quick kick.
Again.... no a foul is not always a foul wherever it happens. The question you SHOULD ask is was the same apparent foul called or ignored earlier in the match. What a fan, a coach, or a player thinks is a foul does not matter, it is what the referee believes is a foul.
Next time you are at a match don't judge what the referee calls based on what you think the foul is, judge if what he called in the first minute was the same as what he called in the 40th or 80th minute. Baseball players know that the first inning is for catchers and pitchers to determine what the umpire's strike zone is. Every umpire has a different zone, and as long as its consistant in that game the players don't mind.
There are plenty of times when I will call or not call something in a game and tell the players that I called it 10 minutes ago, or you did the same thing that your opponent did. The best is when players think something should be called and I tell them that I didn't call it 5 minutes ago so I am not going to call it now. Experienced players will understand this and adjust. Fans and coaches are clueless and have no concept of what is going on or what is being said, they just react to what they see and most of the time they are not sure of what they just saw.
Huh? Listen, I'm sure you're an experienced ref but soccer is not baseball. Baseball is not a contact sport. The strike zone is arbitrary because it happens quicker and in a position that no one else can accurately interpret. What happens if a pitcher intentionally hits a batter? He's tossed after a warning...sometimes without one if it's deemed exceptionally egregious. I've seen a game in soccer where a team fouled another over 18 times and no one received a yellow card or even a talking to. They also let 8th graders play varsity baseball at the high school level. To compare the strike zone to soccer is ridiculous.
Soccer is a contact sport and the PLAYERS have to be protected. This is a sport where a 100 lbs. 14 yr old can be seriously injured by a 180 lbs. 18 year old if a referee will let them get away with it. This isn't the college level or professional level. They are developed and are adults. I don't care about your agenda to let things slide because you're "trying to be consistent". If my best (or worst) player is clipped from behind and goes tumbling to the ground and there is no call because you don't feel like raising your whistle in a 15-0 game or you feel like giving a goal kick instead of a corner kick because one team is drubbing some other team 10-0 or you decide a handball isn't a handball in the box because you don't want the other team to score again or you don't know the difference between a bad throw in and a legal one or you decide to call it tight around a winning teams 18 yard box so the "other team gets a chance"...you're going to hear about it. If a player is fouled, injured, and there is proper execution of the laws of the game then that's fine. Injuries are part of it. As coaches, we feel that a certain amount of responsibility for our players' health and safety, even more so than our teams capability to win. If I knock you in the teeth in the street are you going to be satisfied when the cop says "Well, I didn't arrest that guy 5 minutes ago who hit the other person. So, sorry."?
IF YOU CONSISTENTLY WON'T MAKE A CALL, YOU'RE NOT A GOOD REFEREE. We live in the age of youtube and video cameras on cell phones. If you let a game get out of hand or you let a player sucker punch someone and get away with it. If you "fail" to make a call because "you didn't call it 5 minutes ago" and someone gets hurt or it costs somebody the game and you're in the wrong. It's now on you. If you're a coach and aren't filming your games to send to the high school league, you need to start right now. We're going to protect our players even if it means sending in game film for a referee. You're getting paid for your time and it's a lot more than most of us make per day. You are providing a service as a referee and are entrusted with the safety of our players and the sanctity of the game. Act accordingly. The rule book is online. I keep a pocket copy of it available with me so I can quote it like scripture from the sidelines. Call me Coach Jesus.
A foul IS a foul no matter the minute, the score, the team, the difference in ability level, the gender, the age, etc. A FOUL IS A FOUL.
Really? Can you read? What I stated was the fact that in ALL sports that have officials make judgment calls...baseball, football, soccer, hockey, basketball, etc. What is a foul to one group officials on Monday night may not be a foul to another group of officials on Friday night. What YOU may think is a push or a charge may not be a push or a charge.
I have done games were sophisticated teams know that when a player puts their hands on the back of another player and jump up for the ball is NOT a foul, and I have done games were teams thought that was a foul and I have done games were teams thought that it should be a card.
The problem in south carolina compared to the five other states I officiate in is that there is no mercy rule. You put in a mercy rule, and most of the garbage in blow out games goes away. If I have a 15-0 game and a player sticks her hand out slightly and touches the ball with her hand you better believe I will NOT call it to make it 16-0. However, if its 15-0 and a player endangers someone by making a reckless challenge, you better believe I will call it and card it. Lets have some common sense here, as you said these are not adults or professional athletes. Yes all players must be protected, but when you run up a score to 15-0 with 20 minutes left, the other team is going to get frustrated and angry, its a natural reaction.
This is what ruins the beautiful game. American, and more specifically high school teams that have no concept and no clue of what is going on. I can tell immediately teams that have players who play in strong club programs, weak club programs and those that don't. It is the only sport were the referee is supposed to have an effect on the play, that is why there is such a thing as advantage and trifiling, it is the way the sport has been played around the world for more than 150 years. Are we supposed to suddenly stop and change it for little 8th grader Suzie Q from Dumpwater South Carolina because her coach who is also the math teacher and only does this for a couple of extra bucks is mad that not everything in the book is called?
8th graders should not be on the field with high school seniors. If your worried that your 100lb. baby girl is going to get hurt because someone makes a LEGAL charge on her then don't play. Don't punish the 180lb. girl who makes a legal play on the ball and knocks down the other girl.
A foul is NOT always a foul. If you think it is, you need to find another sport like basketball that is slow and boring and punishes people for just looking at their opponent funny.
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I guess some ref changed the game in a softball game at cherry park in rock hill tuesday night. got punched and the police had to come out. it made the charlotte news.
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Not one rule has been quoted by arrgy through out all of his opinionated statements. What do the rules say? What does the rule say about encroachment on a free kick? I didn't ask for an explanation on trifling.
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Coach
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Arrgy...so, let me get this straight...you're saying that with you as a referee, the way we should look at it is, if you call it wrong in the first 10 minutes, call it wrong the same way near the half, and call it the same wrong way throughout the game, then that makes you right? I mean, I totally understand that every official looks at the game in a little bit different way, and it's the coaches' and players' responsibility to adjust to the way the game is being called...but that doesn't necessarily make the way the game is being called RIGHT. It's pretty stupid to keep driving into potholes you know are there when you can drive around them, too, but that doesn't mean it's not the highway department's responsibility to fix the holes as well.
Please, if you will, explain with a little more clarity what you mean by "a foul is not always a foul." My reading of it is, "a foul is only a foul if I choose to call it a foul."
Again, I understand and appreciate that every crew of officials will call a game slightly differently and that it is our job to adjust accordingly. I'll ask you to also understand and appreciate that if different officials call games in a dramatically different way, it is very confusing to the players who are trying to learn their limitations and abilities. Reasonably consistent officiating based on some universal standards isn't too much to ask for.
Your attitude seems to be very clear, though...the decision is all yours and those who don't understand that are uncivilized rabble. That's ok. Perhaps your wording was a bit ill-thought-out, and you're not as arrogant as you sound or as demeaning towards others as you come across.
I will say this, though...if that is your true attitude toward South Carolina soccer and little Suzy from "Dumpwater, South Carolina," then I would respectfully request that you stick to making your money in your other five states and refrain from taking assignments in my little Dumpwater.
We'd hate for you to become soiled among the unwashed masses, after all.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Per USSF: "While the encroachment by these players is clearly against the procedure mandated in Law 14, the referee is allowed to exercise discretion and determine whether the encroachment has had an effect on the kick. "
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Goal
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Joined: Mar 2002
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Really? Can you read? What I stated was the fact that in ALL sports that have officials make judgment calls...baseball, football, soccer, hockey, basketball, etc. What is a foul to one group officials on Monday night may not be a foul to another group of officials on Friday night. What YOU may think is a push or a charge may not be a push or a charge.
I have done games were sophisticated teams know that when a player puts their hands on the back of another player and jump up for the ball is NOT a foul, and I have done games were teams thought that was a foul and I have done games were teams thought that it should be a card.
The problem in south carolina compared to the five other states I officiate in is that there is no mercy rule. You put in a mercy rule, and most of the garbage in blow out games goes away. If I have a 15-0 game and a player sticks her hand out slightly and touches the ball with her hand you better believe I will NOT call it to make it 16-0. However, if its 15-0 and a player endangers someone by making a reckless challenge, you better believe I will call it and card it. Lets have some common sense here, as you said these are not adults or professional athletes. Yes all players must be protected, but when you run up a score to 15-0 with 20 minutes left, the other team is going to get frustrated and angry, its a natural reaction.
This is what ruins the beautiful game. American, and more specifically high school teams that have no concept and no clue of what is going on. I can tell immediately teams that have players who play in strong club programs, weak club programs and those that don't. It is the only sport were the referee is supposed to have an effect on the play, that is why there is such a thing as advantage and trifiling, it is the way the sport has been played around the world for more than 150 years. Are we supposed to suddenly stop and change it for little 8th grader Suzie Q from Dumpwater South Carolina because her coach who is also the math teacher and only does this for a couple of extra bucks is mad that not everything in the book is called?
8th graders should not be on the field with high school seniors. If your worried that your 100lb. baby girl is going to get hurt because someone makes a LEGAL charge on her then don't play. Don't punish the 180lb. girl who makes a legal play on the ball and knocks down the other girl.
A foul is NOT always a foul. If you think it is, you need to find another sport like basketball that is slow and boring and punishes people for just looking at their opponent funny.
Yes, I can read and I can write for that matter. Discussions about the correct spelling of the word "where" aside (you brought it up), your post only makes you look more like the inept person I thought you were to begin with.
In a perfect world you, as the referee, would attempt to call things to the letter of the laws of the game. Now, I understand that some of them can't see everything. He**, some can't even move from point A to point B without putting their heart at risk for failure, but that isn't an excuse for no-calls OR (more importantly) incorrect calls. In a perfect world, you would be a bi-partisan entity that calls the game according to the rules regardless of the score or situation. All of those scenarios I mentioned in my previous post were things I witnessed in the LAST GAME I was at. They're not isolated incidents or things I made up at the top of my head like your Suzie Q reference.
"I have done games were sophisticated teams know that when a player puts their hands on the back of another player and jump up for the ball is NOT a foul"
^^^^ I can't really decipher what you're trying to say here, but, according to the sentence I'm reading, you think that putting your hands on a player's back to impede them from having a chance at a 50-50 ball is not a foul? I hope I'm wrong.
On to your mercy rule diatribe. I agree with you. Because of the disparity between the have's and the have-nots in soccer in SC, we should have a mercy rule.
However, that is not for you the referee to interpret or decide. Again, you're getting paid to do a job. You want to know why we don't have a mercy rule? Money. You willing to give back half your referee pay when we call a game at half at 7-0? I doubt it. That's what teams would expect. Cost of transportation factors in here too. Why would a team travel 1.5 sometimes 2 hours to play a region game and leave after 40 minutes because they're winning or losing by a certain margin? Most soccer programs lose money every game in the first place. There's a mercy rule in baseball and softball because there is an indeterminate amount of time to their sport and games could go on for hours, days theoretically. Again, your job, that you get paid for, is to enforce the rules. You don't make them. If you're not doing it correctly the people who pay you, the schools you are refereeing at, have the right to let you know about it and let those in charge of you know about it. Whether that is good or bad for the game in SC because the small number officials will simply choose not to officiate games in their off time anymore is debatable. What is not debatable is what we expect from them when they are paid like they are. Until there is a mercy rule in place, I would argue again that score, dominance, gender, size, skilled club players vs not so-skilled club players (not sure why you even made that point but whatever), etc in theory should not matter in a game for you the official. You should try to stay out of the macro game and focus on the micro game. Let the ridicule fly at the coaches that run up the score on teams deliberately. That isn't for you to decide. Not to mention that goals against averages sometimes factor in to playoff seeding and region standings. If it's 20-0 at the end of the game and all 20 goals were legitimate pk's because Suzie Q (your reference) just couldn't help herself with that hand of hers then that's what the laws of the game state...actually, I'd find it odd that she wouldn't be carded out of the match, but you get the point.
I coach and am a Social Studies teacher. What's your point? I don't know the game? That would be an interesting debate. Most of us don't do it for the couple extra bucks let me assure you. We get paid pennies on the hour for our time (assuming you literally are not just a waste but even then, it's not over the top) and to us, our time and players are valuable. Hour to hour pay, the officials are paid way more than we are.
Furthermore, 8th graders aren't on the field with high school seniors according to the laws of the high school game because it's a contact sport...but 9th graders are and they are 14 or 15 years old. Sometimes they are very, very good 9th graders who win matches at the varsity level. If it is a legal but bone-crunching play...cool that is fine. If it is a bomb truck clumsy 18 yr old illegally plowing through some 14 or 15 yr old in the box and the younger players team is winning and you choose to swallow your whistle because you don't want to see that score go from 10-0 to 11-0 in the first half, you, the official, are at fault and you can expect an earful from the sidelines. I wouldn't be arguing it if I haven't seen it happen repeatedly over the years by the same officials.
Last edited by shut^&play; 03/29/12 01:43 PM.
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corner kick
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Shut up has it right!!!!! My original post was about a ref admitting he made a call, when there was not one, just to help out the losing team. "make their day". A couple of years ago in a big game the other team should have been called for a hand ball in the box in the first 30 seconds of the game. It was not called and the ref's exuse for not calling this was he was not going to call a hand ball that early in the game. It is refs like arrgy and the one I was talking about in the original post and the one that did not call hand ball that ruin it for the rest of the refs. I was never talking about a bad call a ref made, or a judgement call. I'm talking about refs who think they can alter a games outcome simply becuase they want to.
That there is an RV Clark......
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"If a player decides to take a free kick quickly and an opponent who is less than 10 yards from the ball intercepts it, the referee must allow play to continue."
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