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It has generally been the thought process of many college soccer coaches that to be competitive and win, you must have foreign players on your roster. Think again. The NCAA final match pitted a private Jesuit school, Georgetown, against a Midwest state school, Indiana. Of the 54 rostered players (25 GT, 29 Indie) there was only 1 foreign player(Ind). 17 of Indiana's players were from Indiana. A total of 22 of the 29 players(76%) hail from the 4 states of Ohio, Illinois, Kentucky and Indiana.
The other two teams in the final four: Creighton, another Jesuit School has 28 total rostered with 5 foreign and Maryland(state supported) has 27 rostered with 6 foreign.
Look at 8 of SC's Men's Soccer programs at State supported Colleges: Francis Marion, Winthrop, Coastal, College of Charleston, USC Columbia, Clemson, Lander, and USC Upstate.
Four of the schools have double digit foreign players. Lander has 18 out of 27 total with 2 from SC. Winthrop comes next with 13 of 29 with 4 SC, Coastal 11 of 22 with 2 SC and Francis Marion 10 of 23 with 4 SC. USC Columbia has the most SC players with 12 followed by College of Charleston 10 and USC Upstate 8.
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SC Men's Soccer Programs
Number of Players
SCHOOL Foreign Total SC
Lander 18 27 2
Winthrop 13 29 4
Coastal 11 22 2
Francis Marion 10 23 4
College of Chas 6 28 10
Clemson 5 27 6
USC Upstate 5 27 8
USC Columbia 1 27 12
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the better foreign players go to the pros not college
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I think you missed the point!
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That has been a pet peeve of mine as the quality of soccer in SC continually improves year to year. Georgetown has almost as many SC players as Lander and Coastal!  And Coastal is a state school. Charleston is probably going to drop this year with the DSC players graduating as that was their big year. I give kudos to any program that looks in before looking out. You should add Wofford to that last and feel they do a good job at looking at local talent.
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I fundamentally agree, but it's a tad more complicated than you think.
Let's assume, for example, that the SMALL handful of prominent developmental programs statewide produce MAYBE 30 D-I or D-II caliber student-athletes a year. Let's assume (incorrectly, I might add) that ALL of them decide to matriculate in SC. Then, divide those among all the programs in-state.
Now, drill deeper.
Let's say the D-I programs peel off the best 10-15 players. That leaves a much smaller number from te original group, plus any "unidentified" high school athletes, for ALL of the lower-division programs. So, where do those coaches look for players?
Answer: It's darn tough to attract high-quality student-athletes from out-of-state (much less out-of-region) to our lower-division schools. Which is why many ambitious college coaches look overseas for kids who'd die for an underwritten college education and a chance to play sports ANYWHERE.
Not saying I like it. Just saying, I see why it happens.
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ALL the schools originally listed are SC State Supported Schools. Updated list to include Wofford and Furman (both private colleges):
SC Men's Soccer Programs
Number of Players
SCHOOL Foreign Total SC
Lander 18 27 2
Winthrop 13 29 4
Coastal 11 22 2
Francis Marion 10 23 4
College of Chas 6 28 10
Clemson 5 27 6
USC Upstate 5 27 8
USC Columbia 1 27 12
Wofford 2 34 11
Furman 2 25 1
Note that Upstate would have 6 foreign players. One recruit from Germany attended Newberry this season and will join the Spartans in the spring. Do not know of any other situations like this with other schools on the list. If anyone has info, please post.
It would be interesting to know how many scholarships each school provides to men's soccer and how many were given to foreign players.
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Backscreen 30 players * 4 yrs = 120
which equates to 12 players per the 10 teams listed by dropkick. Their avg.= 6. I would still say a little short. And don't forget its state money paying those schools.
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I played college soccer for 2 years but don’t really know the ins and outs of the recruiting process. Here is what I think is true from what I have seen happen from my experience as a player and now as a high school coach:
1- I THINK it’s easier to recruit a kid from out of state because a coach can offer them in state tuition and it only counts a small amount against the total scholarship dollars. For example if a school cost $10,000 for out of state and $5000 for in state, the coach can say “I’ll give you $5000 to come here” and it’s not actually costing the coach that much. I COULD BE WRONG…it has happened once or twice in my life.
2- Some foreign players that come here are coming to use our education system to work towards a career that probably doesn’t include being a professional footballer. IN MY EXPERIENCE, I have found that the foreign players have a much higher value on the education they are getting to try to better themselves. I know that isn’t true for all and we are not all lazy Americans.
Just one guy’s opinion/observations
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Import: Hey, I'm not disagreeing. Just saying that, if you look at the numbers, you can see why some coaches recruit elsewhere. I'd also say that many of our SC products are going out-of-state or not playing at all. After various forms of attrition, the 30X4 you cite may well be more like 15X4, in which case you arrive at where we are now.
To bottom-line it: I ASSUME that all college coaches are "in it to win it." They're doing what they think they should to win.
From the current and recent Academy crops, I see multiples at USC, CofC, Wofford, etc. That doesn't leave a ton for the rest.
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Coach DeLong, valid comments. My counterpoint is that SC college coaches can use the LIFE/HOPE money a player might qualify for if instate player which would minimize their use of scholarships and still give the player a very good incentive to stay instate.
Backscreen: Question to ask is why are the players going out-of-state? And I not going to address the Academy comment as that might be a good discussion on its own, once again.
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I would love to see the best players from this state, stay in state, except in football because I'm a Georgia fan.
I don't know how much of the problem is coaches just not recruiting in-state kids or in-state kids wanting to leave and go elsewhere.
Going out of state might be considered more "prestigious" (that might be the right word). It's been a while since a school from SC has made any noise on the college level.
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Better offers?
You're Cole Seiler. You have a shot at a great school like Georgetown. Where are you going? We have "state" kids at UNC, UCF, Marshall, etc. ... a bunch of places.
The fact is, there are many great programs out there, and not all in SC. If a kid chooses Memphis, or Pitt, or Charlotte, or wherever, who am I too tell him not to go?
This is not to say that several schools in our state seemingly "ignore" state kids, or over-recruit foreign kids. Several have foreign-born coaches, or may not be that appealing to "our" kids.
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Prestigious. Nice euphemism, Coach Al.
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I have been a part of college soccer as a player and coach. Here is the question you need to think about. College soccer is the highest level of play in American terms for an American player. This will be the highest a player will go, for the majority at least, few will see the likes of getting drafted by an MLS team or USL team, so college soccer is the pinnacle. We now have a 10 month academy which is good for the country as far as improving our level of play and getting kids more opportunities to be seen by college coaches.
So if college soccer is the pinnacle of most american soccer players why are these college coaches looking overseas??? They are killing the game in America! Why is the woman's national team so good? Why do they always win? The woman's game in college is dominated by American players! They breed their own success, the woman's college teams are successful with American woman, and the national team is successful with picking these American woman college players.
I think it's great to give people opportunities to come to our country and get an education and play college sports, but if the game is going to grow college soccer needs to be dominated by American players. You don't see our Academy team looking overseas and recruiting foreign players, no, they look within the state and get American players; just like all other academies. They take these American players and develop them to compete against other American players = good for American soccer!
Yes the majority of Academy players think D1 or bust, and a lot do get picked up by the major in-state universities, which is great for them. There is also some good talent left in the academy and at the Elite levels in SC. This is where it also comes down to the club coaches to think about "development" vs. "trophies" approach. If the ultimate goal for our players is to play in college, no matter what level, we need to develop them and give them the best opportunity possible to do so! On top of that the college coaches need to focus on playing good soccer and developing their players in every aspect possible as well. This way you remove gaps in talent in recruiting class ability levels and build a well rounded program.
The answer is simple, if we want to grow the sport and create better soccer players, college teams, pro-teams, and national team pools, we need to focus on our American players!
Clark McCarthy
University of South Carolina
Assistant Women's Soccer Coach
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Many of these Coaches are from England, a lot of long ball played.
College soccer is a waste of time for somebody that is serious about going pro, a 3 months season...
SC just doesnt have much going on for soccer, other than Enzo and Velasquez, very few kids get to play at a really high level on this state. Pay-to-play system.
The reason why we suck its bc the second and third division in America have about 4 months season.
In nations that dominate in soccer, kids are going pro at 16 straight out of their academies, the less developed players; older than 18 go to play second division, their second divisions are greats and they can make a living out of it, Mexico for example, a second division player makes great money.
Until the second and third division in America are strong and play all year round like it happens in every country, we will suck.
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The reason that the US isn't as good in soccer as the rest of the world, is because we have so many sports to choose from. Since there are so many choices, the best athletes are going to play for a different sport. If all of our best athletes were going to play soccer, we would dominate. But that just isn't the case here. Soccer takes a backseat to so many sports that I just don't see us getting much better in soccer in my lifetime.
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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Quote:
Many of these Coaches are from England, a lot of long ball played.
SC just doesnt have much going on for soccer, other than Enzo and Velasquez.
Oh the irony...
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You having a moment, coach?
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I always have 'a moment' when Alma posts!
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I always have 'a moment' when Alma posts!
We always have exceptions just like thinking all latino players are dribbling machines.
For the most part, the English mentality is "we dont do tiki taka" and that involves the American soccer mentality too. It is changing now because they are seeing the dominance of teams like Barcelona and its "tiki taka."
Last edited by Alma Merengue; 04/15/13 05:01 PM.
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Quote:
The reason that the US isn't as good in soccer as the rest of the world, is because we have so many sports to choose from. Since there are so many choices, the best athletes are going to play for a different sport. If all of our best athletes were going to play soccer, we would dominate. But that just isn't the case here. Soccer takes a backseat to so many sports that I just don't see us getting much better in soccer in my lifetime.
completely false, Spain is 2nd in the world in basketball and always produce great tennis players.
Its the second and third division in America that need to be stronger, till then we will get embarrassed every 4 years.
The college game just isnt enough, like I said, our best talent are going to waste 4 years of their soccer careers on a 3 months seasons, while players like Fabregas and Messi are already dominating the pros at 18.
My good friend Luis Silva had offers to go to the Mexican first division since he was a junior in High School, yes, decided to go waste 4 years of his life at Santa Barbara, now he is doing ok at Toronto, he would have been much more dominant if he went pro right after high school.
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Quote:
Quote:
I always have 'a moment' when Alma posts!
We always have exceptions just like thinking all latino players are dribbling machines.
For the most part, the English mentality is "we dont do tiki taka" and that involves the American soccer mentality too. It is changing now because they are seeing the dominance of teams like Barcelona and its "tiki taka."
Alma,
First of all my post was in response to your post that (and i am paraphrasing here) Seba and Enzo were the only good players produced from SC, and the Irony in your comment that English coaches in America are long ball merchants. The irony being that Seba was coached by Andrew, Pearse and myself, and Enzo by myself, Phil Hindson and John Stewart. All from the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland.
Secondly, the talent in SC has always been underestimated, I have for years coached against the top players and teams from all over the south east and have found no reason to categorize our players here in SC as nothing other than on a par with the elite teams and players from other states/areas. I think we give our kids here a bad rap, they are superb players and can, have and are showing great success at the next level.
Thirdly, i cannot comment on coaching in England as I have been here my whole coaching carrer, but I know numerous college and club coaches from the UK and Ireland and have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that these coaches here are 'long ball' coaches. I find that quite insulting that you are taking a 'lazy' sterotype and using it as fact.
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I always have 'a moment' when Alma posts!
We always have exceptions just like thinking all latino players are dribbling machines.
For the most part, the English mentality is "we dont do tiki taka" and that involves the American soccer mentality too. It is changing now because they are seeing the dominance of teams like Barcelona and its "tiki taka."
Alma,
First of all my post was in response to your post that (and i am paraphrasing here) Seba and Enzo were the only good players produced from SC, and the Irony in your comment that English coaches in America are long ball merchants. The irony being that Seba was coached by Andrew, Pearse and myself, and Enzo by myself, Phil Hindson and John Stewart. All from the United Kingdom and the Republic of Ireland.
Secondly, the talent in SC has always been underestimated, I have for years coached against the top players and teams from all over the south east and have found no reason to categorize our players here in SC as nothing other than on a par with the elite teams and players from other states/areas. I think we give our kids here a bad rap, they are superb players and can, have and are showing great success at the next level.
Thirdly, i cannot comment on coaching in England as I have been here my whole coaching carrer, but I know numerous college and club coaches from the UK and Ireland and have seen absolutely nothing to suggest that these coaches here are 'long ball' coaches. I find that quite insulting that you are taking a 'lazy' sterotype and using it as fact.
That is great that you coached Enzo, and I am sure he learned a lot from you tactically, most Latin Americans learn most of their skills playing with friends and family in front of the house or in the backyard and I said that because of my own experiences, one of my uncles played pro, he lives in Los Angeles now.
You have some great talent in SC and then what? They have to compete with foreigners from Europe or elite players from Texas, California or Maryland, that's no an easy thing to do. To me, it will be great if they have other options other than just having to play in state colleges for 3 months. Maybe if the the season of the Charleston Battery, Charlotte or Atlanta were longer, they had real options... I know many talented kids from SC that dont have the grades or mess up in school and then what? Another wasted talent... that has nowhere to go, an MLS team is not gone pick them up at that level.
As a Latin American, I still dont find English Premier League "attractive," to watch, it is getting better lately, a few years ago, it was all long ball side to side. the Bundesliga can be "attractive" sometime producing players such as Ozzil... but for the most part, is just bunch of dudes out-muscling and wrestling each other for the long ball, painful to watch for most of us.
No disrespect to you coach, just giving my insight on the game I love, in fact, I have seen your teams playing and they are always fun to watch.
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I'm thinking about all these long-balling BPL sides ...
Liverpool with Rogers?
Swansea with Laudrup?
Sure, West Ham (Allardyce) and Stoke (Pulis) seem to prefer a physical, "unattractive" style. But those are (at best) mid-table sides, with limited resources and a pragmatic desire to "stay up."
As opposed to West Ham under Zola/Grant, or Blackpool during its brief stay up. Pretty football. Relegated.
From the top ...
Man U can do either.
Man City's attacking force is loaded with Spaniards and South Americans.
Arsenal? Some would say TOO pretty.
Tottenham (Villas Boas) can do either.
I guess Everton (Moyes) is more "pragmatic."
My point is, winning sides play the style that suits them. South Carolina isn't Barcelona.
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No disrespect taken at all, glad to engage in banter.Just had some issue with you stereotyping of all English coaches as 'long ball merchants'.
Football at the level your talking about (pro european leagues) is all about results, sure youd like to play attractive football but i really doubt wether Bayern and Dortmund fans care how they play (and they play some bloody good stuff by the way, not the way you described it at all!!), just like i bet Milan, Inter, Juve, PSG wish they were in the semi finals.
Barca (and what a team they are) are the only team that can play like Barca, and even they have shown weak areas that can be exploited, if they win it, they deserve it, if they dont, they didnt.
The latin discussion is probably a different thread, i have so much respect for the latin community and the soccer philosophy of latin countries, at the NSCAA convention, the mexican youth national team director did a fantastic presentation and showed certinaly that the success they have in international football at all ages is no fluke, and look at honduras u-17 as the most recent highlight of superb latin players/teams. I just know and recognize there is more than one way to 'skin a cat' as the the old saying goes, none better than the other, just whichever one works best for teams
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Quote:
No disrespect taken at all, glad to engage in banter.Just had some issue with you stereotyping of all English coaches as 'long ball merchants'.
Football at the level your talking about (pro european leagues) is all about results, sure youd like to play attractive football but i really doubt wether Bayern and Dortmund fans care how they play (and they play some bloody good stuff by the way, not the way you described it at all!!), just like i bet Milan, Inter, Juve, PSG wish they were in the semi finals.
Barca (and what a team they are) are the only team that can play like Barca, and even they have shown weak areas that can be exploited, if they win it, they deserve it, if they dont, they didnt.
The latin discussion is probably a different thread, i have so much respect for the latin community and the soccer philosophy of latin countries, at the NSCAA convention, the mexican youth national team director did a fantastic presentation and showed certinaly that the success they have in international football at all ages is no fluke, and look at honduras u-17 as the most recent highlight of superb latin players/teams. I just know and recognize there is more than one way to 'skin a cat' as the the old saying goes, none better than the other, just whichever one works best for teams
Johan Cruyff whos prob the best European player ever went to Spain and became prob the cockiest soccer player ever, he talked more trash than Maradona did. Could you imagine if he went o play to Brazil?
He went back to Holland and made sure indoor soccer facilities were constructed in different pupblic-parks all over his country. The result... Ban Vasten, Gullit, Robben, Seedorf, Berkam...
The U20 Did at great job againts Mexico at Mexico in front of 100,000 fans, yeah most of the U20 players were Mexican-Americans. Im not saying "latinos" are better, but latinos in the usa breath soccer, something you hardly see in other communties like the asian community for example.
Honduras u20 beat Spain and had Brazil on a knock out stage in the Olympics, if you actually saw the game, Honduras were winning, they got a pk againts them, then a red card.
Mexico is the Olympic Champ, u17 world champ.
The Germans of Klissmann were amazing, I watched that world cup, Germany was my favorite team back then, I dont remember then depending on set pieces.
I played for a coach who used to coach in EPL, he hated me. Our training consisted on working on set pieces, "second phase" balls (rebounds) and "direct" passes, prob the worse thing that can happen to a Latino player but I must say, I did learn a lot from him, he was very professional, just not an enthusiastic of "tiki taka" as I am.
At the end of the day, the best teams in the history of the game.
1. Madrid of Di Stefano
2. Holland and "Football total"
3. Brazil of Pele
4. Brazil of Romario, Brazil of Fat Ronaldo
5. Milan of Baressi
6. Juventus and Madrid of Zidane
7. Barca of Xavi and Ronaldiho
Most of them played some sort of "possesion" game.
I will say the Germany of klissman prob played a little more "direct"
The ManU of Beckam depended of crosses, who knows how they won the champions league...
Im not sure about the Germany of Beckenbauer.
The AC Milan of Baressi didnt play the "tiki taka" of Barcelona, but nowhere near "direct" style, they were very dominant too.
To finish up, elite talent in SC need better options than going to play 3 months in college or 4 months in usl.
Again, I apoligize if I offended anybody, it was no my intention. Just giving my insight as an outsider.
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Quote:
I'm thinking about all these long-balling BPL sides ...
Liverpool with Rogers?
Swansea with Laudrup?
Sure, West Ham (Allardyce) and Stoke (Pulis) seem to prefer a physical, "unattractive" style. But those are (at best) mid-table sides, with limited resources and a pragmatic desire to "stay up."
As opposed to West Ham under Zola/Grant, or Blackpool during its brief stay up. Pretty football. Relegated.
From the top ...
Man U can do either.
Man City's attacking force is loaded with Spaniards and South Americans.
Arsenal? Some would say TOO pretty.
Tottenham (Villas Boas) can do either.
I guess Everton (Moyes) is more "pragmatic."
My point is, winning sides play the style that suits them. South Carolina isn't Barcelona.
Arsenal is ok
Chelsea is getting better
ManU depends on set pieces, always have.
City is is trying to implement a great style, no there yet.
Maybe one day I will get into epl.
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I'm into all of it, because just like virtually every other sport, soccer offers multiple ways to skin the cat. No one way is uniformly "right" or "wrong."
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Players overseas (Europe/SA) are exposed to adult professional level competition starting at around age 15-16 years old if the player is big and strong enough. They give them little/by little exposure so that when they are 18/19/20 they can step into their 1st team professional lineups and star or at least contribute to the 1st team. Some of these 18-year-olds who either do not make it to the next level but received professional level training until age 18 or who just decided to want to go to college instead or before turning pro might come to the USA and be at least a few steps ahead of the typical American ODP player who has been training 2x per week against other U-19 boys and being coached by a coach who is really not as experienced or knowledgeable as he tells everyone he is. Learn more about how American's can get real professional training in Europe, South America (Brazil), and in German Bundesliga teams at http://venturacountyfc.com.Nick Ledesma is born and raised in southern California and is now playing in the U-19 German Bundesliga for Alemannia Aachen. He started and played 75 minutes against Borussia Dortmund's U-19 last week.
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Followed U.S. college soccer on and off for over 30 years. Here to tell you, as good as foreign-trained "imports" CAN be, they are not uniformly so. Just like any other group of kids. Over time, I've seen plenty of foreign "mistakes" on college rosters. The difference is, they're the ones soaking up an inordinate proportion of limited grant-in-aid resources. Caveat emptor.
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Alma,
Genuinely interested to hear what you have to say about the champions league performances of the German teams after you said this about them:
" is just bunch of dudes out-muscling and wrestling each other for the long ball, painful to watch for most of us."
Cheers!
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That's funny right there.
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You know since I grew up playing for a club where all we talked was national championship, I grew up with that mentality.
I think Mourinho has done great things, he is a great tactician, he is a great great defensive coach, a great counter attacking coach. A great coach for English Premier football teams where there is not much skill and flair.
Mourinho is not for Madrid.
I gone make it short.
Madrid had about 50 fouls and about 50 unnecesary crosses. That is not what Madrid its all about, that is not what "latin" futbol its all about.
I cant wait for Mourinho to leave so we can get a coach more suited for Madrid. An attacking coach who doesnt send 50 crosses every game and who actually tell his players to play clean.
The image of Madrid is going down hill bc of the "Special" one.
As far as the Germans, they are great teams.
Club of the century.
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Posts: 357
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Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 357 |
btw, the Salvadoran-American community are doing big things.
The first player on the U.S. under-15 boys national team to move to Europe is Joshua Perez. The nephew of former U.S. World Cup player and current U.S. under-14 national team coach Hugo Perez moved to Fiorentina in Italy on a three-year contract after training at such clubs at AC Milan.
Joshua Perez, who can play any attacking position or in midfield, is considered one of the most skilled players to come along at his age. He played for Chivas USA in the Development Academy before signing with Fiorentina.
The high school freshman had verbally committed to UCLA, but few expected him to wait to turn pro.
Perez, who also reportedly signed a deal with Nike, is with the U-15s for the Trofeo Delle Nazioni in Grandisca.
Last edited by Alma Merengue; 05/06/13 06:22 AM.
Club of the century.
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Posts: 1,062
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There is a bigger picture, Re: UEFA CL. Truth is, the Germans have invested gigantic sums in recent years on their youth system. There appears to be a vision. Neither purely technical, nor purely physical, but BOTH. Truth is, you needn't be 5-8, 145 to be a technical genius. All things even roughly equal on the technical scale, give me the bigger, faster, more athletic guys, and I'll beat you more often than not.
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 362
Corner Kick
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Corner Kick
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 362 |
Interesting thought however almost half of Bayern's current players (13 of 28) aren't German and Dortmund's leading goal scorer is Polish. So yes I agree the Germans are spending a lot of money but it is for established players and not their own youth. You would have a valid argument if the German National Team was stacking up World Cups.
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Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 362
Corner Kick
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Corner Kick
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 362 |
Oh and I forgot Pep is Spanish last I checked
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Posts: 1,062
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True. And Barca's top scorer is Argentine. And RM's is Portuguese. Your comment about the German youth system is incorrect. It's fairly common knowledge that they are spending gross (and increasing) sums on domestic player development, and clearly producing very good young players ... many of whom are on Bayern or Dortmund.
Now, it's POSSIBLE the UCL results are merely a coincidence, or a "golden generation." These things happen. For me, I see method in the madness.
I also see the Guardiola hiring as a decision to take the next logical step: 1) Physical; 2) Technical; 3) Tactical.
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Joined: Feb 2009
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corner kick
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Joined: Feb 2009
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The Germans have always been descent teams, no surprise there, maybe not good enough to go all the way but always coming second or third place, their national team is prob the most consistent team ever.
Madrid needs a better coach, there is no much to say there.
As far as Barcelona, to be fair, they had 4 injuries for the second game.
Barcelona's empire is coming to an end unless they buy 3 top level defenders bc Puyol is done and Pique hasnt been doing great lately, may be bc of his marriage with Shakira.
The Germans are just smart people in general, other than Javi Martinez, I dont hear the Germans spending ridiculous amount of money on players, they are very smart with their money, something Spaniards and English dont do. They spend too much money on a lot of overrated players, the reason why a lot of these clubs are going in debt.
Respect for the Germans, Madrid-Bayern should have been the final, like I said, I cant wait for Mourinho to leave, watching Madrid playing is painful.
Could you imagine Zidane being there and Mourinho telling Zidane to send as much crosses as he could? Simply embarrasing.
Last edited by Alma Merengue; 05/06/13 05:21 PM.
Club of the century.
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