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Over the past year it seems like the quality is dropping off quickly. I coach at two age groups and I am around HS soccer and this spring has been especially poor. I'm not sure what the reason is or how they can address it, but the more coaches that I speak with they all seem to think there's been a decline in quality as well. My personal opinion is especially at the younger age groups your getting $24 an hour. That's 50k a year if it was a full time job. So it's not like they are not fairly compensated. They need to step up and do the best they can. It's pretty bad when 9, 10, 11 & 12 year old kids are waiting to see who show up because they already know who's does a fair job and who does not.
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I agree with some of what you're saying. Officiating could be better.
But suppose you're located in Mount P, and are assigned 2 youth games in Summerville. You work approximately 2.5 hours, plus about 1:15 total round trip driving. That's 3:45 of actual time for 48 bucks. That's less than $13/hour, or about 27K/year.
You make more on tips at a carwash.
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How many of them are claiming it as income on their taxes? It's pure cash. if you are doing it for extra money then be professional about it and do your best.
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From the sidelines, have you ever yelled at a youth or high school player about how incompetent he is? About how terrible her first touch is? About how poor his shooting ability is? About what an idiot she is? Probably not.
Now, have you ever yelled similar things at a 16 year old referee working his first season of U-12 games? Or a 20 year old college student working her first HS season? If so, then you are part of the problem. There is an incredible turnover rate of young referees, mostly due to the abuse they take from coaches and parents in their first year on the job.
If the young referees don’t stick around after their first year, they never become good referees. Sure, a lot of the young referees start out for the money, but I can guarantee that the vast majority stay in the game, and strive to get better, because they love the game and they love to give back to the soccer community. That doesn’t happen if they get abused by coaches and spectators expecting FIFA level referees for recreation level soccer matches.
No youth or HS referee is making $25 – 50k per year. In fact, few if any MLS or FIFA refs are making that kind of money.
Before you complain about the declining quality of referees, think about your own actions towards the young ones, the ones that may be the great referees next year, or five years from now. If you want to yell at an old guy like me, go for it. I can handle it. If you want to yell at a new ref, please don’t. Much like new players, we need to help them develop, not drive them away from the game.
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I really agree with all of this. We don't have many good refs in our area. We have some that are particularly bad. And the same parents scream and yell at them every.single.game.
Why should any referee strive to call a good game when so many parents act like idiots at the games. These refs are not world class refs. They are calling high school games and youth sports games in little old South Carolina.
I hate it when I hear the parents yell at a ref when there is a foul, and the ref has blown his whistle to call the foul, and the parents are still screaming at him.
There are obvious calls that refs miss, they are not perfect, but some parents are such morons to think they have to scream and yell all the dang time. Seriously?
That's why the pool of good refs is missing....idiot parents. (And before anyone asks, I don't ref, I don't have a family member that refs, and I don't have a vested interest, other than seeing the quality of referees increase.)
We parents are the reason good referees are slowly disappearing. Until the parents learn to control themselves, it will only get worse as the years go by.
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I very rarely yell anything towards a ref unless it involves a safety issue. I've never seen a call changed by yelling. If I have something to say I usually ask at the half or after the game why a call went one way or another. In fact I expect parents on the teams I coach to keep their mouths shut towards the refs. As far as your point about the younger refs, I think they do a pretty good job, their effort level is good and they admit to errors or apologize when you approach them professionally. I've had two veteran refs take a pretty nasty stance with me when I ask them question or express a concern. All I am saying is that it is my personal opinion (and I coach almost every weekend 10 months a year) there has been a drop off in the quality the past 2 years. I have seen the more bad calls (& in their defense they are calling equally bad for both teams) this past year than ever.
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Jobu: I agree. You take a check, you do a job. My point was, nobody is making THAT much as a soccer official.
As to the relative merits of young or old officials, I'd say this: Incompetence and lack of effort know no age limit. Several years back, I stood outside the door at an officiating certification class. Inside, a middle-aged slob/official, who was AT LEAST 30 pounds overweight, was railing on how little "young" officials" know or care about the job. He proceeded to blame most "problem" situations on young officials, and he was barely able to drag his sorry butt out of the desk chair. Meanwhile, a handful of teenagers sat and listened to his diatribe, while the instructor did nothing to question his physical or emotional fitness to officiate kids. HELLO?
Last year, I watched a highly regarded older fellow from Columbia work four tournament or post-season games, from the center circle (as ref) or 5 yards behind the play (as AR). This is not a unique problem.
The older guys, for no reason other than seniority, get more and better assignments. Time for our local assigners/evaluators to lop the dead wood and change the face of the game.
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Ok guys. I have to agree with some of the things you are pointing out. I am a Referee, Instructor, Assessor and a Mentor.
To start things out, we can hardly say we do it for the money. I worked 12 months out of the year doing youth, Development Academy, PDL, college, pro, instructing and mentoring. I made $11,529.88 last year. I put 23,478 miles on my vehicle just for refereeing. I traveled out of town to tournaments that did not pay me for the games i worked. I was away from my family for extended periods of time. when i got home i had reports to fill out and paper work to send in. Enough about the money that you think we make. I Instruct new referees and try to give them the guidance and skills to step on the field and do the best they can do for the game. Understand that some have played, some have not and some have seen it on TV. Refereeing is a learned profession. Just like a great soccer player did not have perfect shots on goal the first time he stepped up to take that winning PK. We have to give them a chance. It is hard to do your job when parents/coaches are yelling constantly that he missed this and he missed that, what game are you watching. I still hear this and i have been doing it for a few years. Young referees do not know how to block it out. Like it was said earlier, are you yelling this at the players on the field??????
I am sure there will be more to talk about. We are working with all referees in the Charleston Area and in South Carolina to better their performance and skills. And i close by saying, Entry Level Referee Courses are given and if any of you would like to attend please sign up. We may be able to teach you something or you may be able to teach us!!!!!
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well, speaking from a coach, a ref and a player, i can agree with everything you are saying. To be honest, the parents on the sidelines are a real problem for the AR that has to deal with them. the center ref can typically ignore the parents, if he/she chooses to do so. Coaches can be just as abrasive to the AR on that side and can also be ignored if the center offical wants to. Players are a different story. Dealing with players who complain about every call and wine about not getting a call are the true issue that i dealt with as a coach.
Now.....i was one of those players who gave the refs an earful. I was also one of those coaches who gave the ref and earful. All of that led my players to trend in the same direction. I did take the stance to my players telling them that it was my job to talk to the ref and their job to play. Unfortunately, that just doesnt always work and the players will show their displeasure in different levels.
I do not ref or coach any longer. I am getting back into playing and do not yell at refs any more. Getting older and seeing all the bad stuff that i can now see from another view, makes me see what the real issues were and continue to be. All levels of all sports are going to have fans who dont like the calls that a ref makes. Parents and coaches have to keep this in mind and teach the players that it is a game that is meant to be fun and competitive at the same time. If the ref is truly awful, and i admit that there are some of those, report him to the assignor at the end. But dont just send it reports on the bad ones without commending the good ones. The assignor needs to know who is doing good and who is doing bad, but if all he hears is the bad, he may not listen to the complaints as much.
Get a handle on the yelling and screaming and i think you will keep refs around. The pay isnt bad. Travelling 20-30 minutes for work is something refs choose to do to make some cash. it fits the high school and college kids perfectly, but they wont listen to the bickering. Once you lose a young ref, they probably wont come back.
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I do not endorse parents going over the top on officials, but I do think an official, regardless of age, should be able to handle "X" amount of second-guessing/booing/comments. If you can't FROM THE START, you're probably in the wrong line of work.
That said, show me ANY job that comes free of pressure, responsibility and/or supervisory heat, and I'll show you a long line of applicants.
One final comment: Many officials assume parents/fans know little about the game, its laws and refereeing in general. Not necessarily true. A lot of us know the game and its laws VERY well. Some may have officiated another sport at a higher level than high school, and understand the job quite well. Assuming otherwise, and/or saying as much DURING or IMMEDIATELY AFTER a game, only adds fuel to the fire.
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Quote:
I do not endorse parents going over the top on officials, but I do think an official, regardless of age, should be able to handle "X" amount of second-guessing/booing/comments. If you can't FROM THE START, you're probably in the wrong line of work.
That said, show me ANY job that comes free of pressure, responsibility and/or supervisory heat, and I'll show you a long line of applicants.
One final comment: Many officials assume parents/fans know little about the game, its laws and refereeing in general. Not necessarily true. A lot of us know the game and its laws VERY well. Some may have officiated another sport at a higher level than high school, and understand the job quite well. Assuming otherwise, and/or saying as much DURING or IMMEDIATELY AFTER a game, only adds fuel to the fire.
Agreed 100%! I also hate the "parent official" that has a kid playing and is the "know-it-all" in the stands and comments on EVERY call. I've watched my girls for 15+ years in organized soccer and we've had a parent on just about every team tell us every game how much they know. I don't understand why officials never get a written review in HS soccer either. Seems easy enough for the coaches to make a post match report and send to the HSL or their local designee.
@chicagoredstars
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Agreed. Though any evaluation system would HAVE to be 100% confidential. Why?
Because many H.S. coaches are afraid to evaluate an official honestly, for fear that his/her colleagues will exact retribution. If soccer is anything like basketball, coaches can blackball an official or two. Most basketball coaches DON'T use the blackball for precisely that reason.
I personally find it more offensive when an assigner/evaluator stands on the sidelines during a game involving his coach/son's team.
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I talked to an adult AR this past Saturday who said he is selective about what games he will ref. He commented that parents from some clubs are worse than other clubs so he just won't ref certain games. Not sure if the same applies to high school games.
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When referees decide who they will/will not officiate, there's a problem. That should be purely up to the assigner.
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Quote:
When referees decide who they will/will not officiate, there's a problem. That should be purely up to the assigner.
And yet you seem to endorse a coach's right to "blackball" a referee. Interesting...
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I am not a referee but a coach and a player. Parents, coaches, and players should SHUT their mouths. It's a game, nothing more. If you think you can do a better job, sign up for a referee clinic and get involved. Bickering on a message board about the quality of the referees does NOTHING to help the situation.
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Lurker: Practically speaking, competent assigners are aware of any (real or perceived) conflict of interest an official may have, and therefore don't compromise an official by putting him or her on a "conflict" game. In the real world, officials should tell the assigner of any conflict beforehand.
To my way of thinking, not "liking" a particular coach or set of parents is not an acceptable conflict. Admitting as much calls into question one's ability to officiate ANY game; not just those in question.
There are legitimate reasons to blackball an official. In nearly 20 years at various high schools I supported ONE blackball -- when it became apparent to me that a specific individual was openly cheering for a team whose games he periodically officiated. Found out he had a personal relationship with that team's coach.
I also suggested that the official in question not work ANY games involving teams in his GF's conference, because he could impact outcomes of OTHER games that would affect league standings, state seedings, etc. And the assigner quietly accepted that suggestion.
I'd also point out that there's a big difference between coaching and officiating. A coach is SUPPOSED to have, and manifest, a vested interest in his/her team. And parents/fans are just that. An official is SUPPOSED to be unbiased. Officials should EXPECT reasonable bias, emotion and heat from coaches and fans. Coaches should EXPECT a fair shake from officials.
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Backscreen17 let start out with this. If you have a concern about the quality of a referee then be a part of the solution and don't bash but help the referee get better. I work a full time regular job getting up at 4am during the week getting off around 5pm then off to do a HS match or weekday club match getting home late around 10pm. Makes for a long day and I give it my all every time I step out on the pitch. I don't get every call right and I do miss calls but I care enough about the match to do my very best and try to learn with every match I am involved in so that I get better. I attend matches that I don't get paid for and mentor fellow referee's to help them and glad to do this for this is the only way to get better is to have help. Yes there are good referee's in every area of our state and some that if helped could also be just as good. I will end with this I would like to invite you to attend one of our certification clinics and get certified and help our referee's get better.
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I agree that, we as parents, need to keep our mouths shut. But, all I ask is that the referees, especially at high school matches, do their best to maintain control. I am sure most refs do, but others don't at all, and their inability or unwillingness to make the calls increase the possibility of injury to these players.
Mr. Shealy, I appreciate all that you do. I understand that you've worked hard and are now doing your best to ref a high school game. You are, no doubt, giving your best and probably still have to take abuse from players and parents. On the flip side, the players have been in school all day. They may have played two or three matches in that week and then have tests to study for once they get home. They too are tired, and all they ask for is some control on the field. The problem is two sided. Parents and players do way too much yelling at the ref, but refs fail to control the match or fail to call it equally. Once they do this it becomes more dangerous for the player, and there is no excuse for a player getting hurt in a game that the ref has allowed to get out of control.
It's a two sided problem and typically it's the parents not the players who are doing most of the yelling. I would ask that the refs never take out their frustration with the parents on the players. Parents need to recognize when they are the problem, but refs need to do the same.
With that said, I will not be attending any certification clinics. I have no desire to be a ref. What I will do is control my mouth.
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Hi Michael. I sympathize with your plight and appreciate your effort. Doesn't change a thing I've said. I would point out several things that you, as a certified official, probably already know:
1) You should ignore parents/fans, unless they are clearly endangering you, or (more importantly) player participants, or are WAY over-the-top racist, sexist or profane. Anyone who CAN'T do this shouldn't officiate.
2) Good officials don't get any worse when harassed; patently bad ones don't get any better when ignored or praised.
3) There should ABSOLUTELY be a fitness standard for high school officials and THAT should be a core component of certification.
4) As pointed out above, I have listened in on certification classes and been shocked by what I heard. And DIDN'T hear. As in, "How can I take your comments seriously when you're CLEARLY unfit?" How can a veteran official expect young up-and-comers to stay in the game, when HE'S more critical of them than the fans EVER get?
5) It doesn't take a certification badge to recognize lack of physical fitness, lack of effort, poor judgment or misinterpretation of rules.
6) If I were evaluating a high school official's work, I'd be a rare duck indeed. I have been to well over 100 high school matches over the last four years and can count on one hand the number of times I recognized an "evaluator" in the stands.
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Backscreen, why don't you sign up for a refereeing course? It sounds that you have a lot of solutions to your perceived issues. You must be in terrific shape so you should be able to show them how to lose weight. I cannot wait to hear your feedback.
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I am in my 25th year of officiating. I never coached, only played, officiated and assessed. I have been at all levels from little kids up to college and beyond, and I have officiated in 40 of the 50 states. My game count is well over 5000 matches. For every 20 matches a year a parent watches, or a coach manages or a player plays I referee at least seven times that amount easily. I have seen it all.
First, High School soccer, especially in South Carolina is not real soccer. Its boom ball played on very small football pitches that do not allow for much in the way of passing. If your team is being constantly fouled (like most are in High School) then you are doing something wrong. Most European and South American matches have very little player to player contact compared to matches in the U.S. This is a game of passing not of physical one on one contact. The women's games are almost always better to watch in the U.S. because generally they play the game like it is supposed to be played. Your causing the problem by not playing the game correctly. Watch any boys HS match, its all long ball, kick and run and hope for the best, very few small touches. Then watch any International Match, the ball is touched on average 10-12 times before any player to player contact is made. Part of the problem is the horrible football fields. We should be playing 9 v 9 on these fields instead of 11 v 11. The tv series "The White Shadow" had a great scene in it. The coach lined all the players up and told the fastest player to run as fast as he could from one end of the court to the other. While he ran the coach passed the ball to someone all the way at the end of the court, the pass got there well before the player did. Lesson learned, the player was winded and tired out and got to the other end slower than the ball did. The players learned that in ALL team sports, the key is passing.
Second, I declare my soccer fees as income. Guaranteed every cent is declared, and every year just from the .50 a mile deduction I have a loss. I have driven 600 miles round trip to do a single AR at Barton College for $85. That is a $215 loss just for one game. Referees are not making the money you think they are making.
Third, we are the sport with the lowest official to player ratio. All other team sports have at the highest levels more officials on the field, court or ice, comparatively for the size and number of players. Maybe field hockey and lacrosse which are different sports entirely. You can have 6 football officials watch what amounts to mainly 10 yards of action every 5-10 seconds. You have three officials, two of which only really watch 1/4 of the field, and one official be responsible for the entire field all 800 square yards of it.
Fourth, this is a game of angles for officials. Many times people on the sidelines can see a foul because they have a better angle, and surprisingly the farther you are from play at times the better the angle. It is actually easier to see a foul from 20 yards away then 5 yards away, especially if it is on the opposite side of where a referee is. So those old fat referees are actually using their experience to put themselves in a better position to see a shirt grab that is away from the normal field of vision of a referee. With only 6 eyes at most watching 22 people its very difficult to do.
Fifth, I could go on about parents. But I won't. What makes adults think they could go out in public and yell at other adults or worse kids for trying to do a job is beyond me. I just smile at them and laugh at them.
Sixth, coaches. This is the problem. As I said earlier I am over 5000 games and 25 years of experience, you are going to evaluate me? I sound arrogant, but seriously? Guaranteed most officials do not want to go to games with these coaches. There are some top level H.S. programs in the state, I tell my assignor to not send me to, because of the coach. I would much rather do teams that never win a game, and lose 10-0 all the time because they have good, respectful coaches that understand that this is a game. And if I get paid the same to do a 10-0 game and not get any grief from anyone, why would I put myself in a 0-0 game where everyone just yells and screams and no matter what I do its my fault. Those 10-0 games are generally where your best referees are because they know better.
Seventh, finally what you want from an official is for them to be consistent. Not necessarily with everything for sure, but if it is a ball to hand play in the first minute not called it is not called in the 80th minute. It is not the player's, fans, or coaches interpretation of the rules/laws, it is the official's. As long as he calls fouls the same it is not a problem. The problem officials have is not using or calling advantage correctly. How many times have you seen advantage not recognized by the official because he did not yell "Play on Advantage" I have few problems because I do it ALL the time and I hear fans and coaches say, he played the advantage did the right thing. Most officials will play advantage but get themselves in trouble by not letting everyone know he saw it and used it. But consistent calls is the key.
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Chelsea: I will respond to you if/when you explain to me how a man/woman who is CLEARLY out of shape (30+ lbs overweight), or unwilling/unable to venture more than a few yards outside the center circle is certified to officiate.
You don't need an officiating course to see THAT.
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See, my question would be: Why would any referee, evaluator, assigner defend a colleague who is clearly unfit?
As stated above, the typical soccer match includes 3 officials for 22 players (on a large field), coaching staffs and bench areas. An unfit (or lazy) official places undue responsibility on his/her colleagues, and (arguably) puts players at risk.
Why defend THAT? Why certify THAT?
To me, the fact that some officials/assigners can't or won't answer or address those simple questions should disqualify THEM from the task.
Fitness is a BASELINE qualification.
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You misunderstood, I'm not talking about the referee who can't run. I'm talking about the guy who is not always on top of the play. The guy who is 10-20 yards away, not the guy who is 20+ yards away all the time.
The game has devolved so much into kickball, that when the ball is launched down the field in front of my AR, neither I nor any other experienced referee is going to go running after it like some dog. That is why the AR is there, that is his job, to watch that ball. Most of the time it gets booted into touch, or kicked straight back up field without a thought anyway.
I have seen the guys who are more than 30 pounds overweight, and I shake my head like you do, I wonder how they don't get a heart attack sometimes.
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I understand. Agree with a good bit of what you say.
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Backscreen, be careful what you wish for.
If you take away all of the old, unfit referees, who will take their place? I’m not sure about all areas of the state (or nation, or world), but around here, there is a shortage of referees. The assignors cannot get enough refs on some nights and weekends, and most refs are working more games than they want.
High school and youth club refs fall into two basic categories: the “old and unfit” who have been doing this for years and get abused for being behind play and being blind; and the new, young and fit referees who get abused for not understanding the nuances of the job and lacking the gravitas to control the game. The referee that you are requesting is the guy whose has years of experience, but hasn’t lost his fitness. There are very few people aged 25 – 35 who started refereeing as teenagers that are still interested in this as a hobby or source of secondary income. Many of today’s young referees could become the next generation of great referees, but most don’t last past the first year or two.
So, instead of complaining about old refs, what can you do to help encourage the teenager nervously doing her first U12 game or the college student struggling through a testosterone-filled HS game? Until we (parents, coaches, referees, administrators, etc.) can get enough of the young ones to stick around long enough to become good referees, you’ll be stuck with old, fat guys like me. I have two sons who are currently officiating high school matches. I’m providing all of the encouragement that I can. If they stick with it, maybe I can hang up my whistle soon. If enough of their friends stick with it, maybe the assignor can select young, fit and experienced referees for all games.
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My son has been working for several years, and hangs on in hope of getting assignments -- which invariably seem to go to older, less fit people.
What SHOULD be happening is that each high school crew of three includes a "fit veteran" and two fit younger guys. The physically unfit, regardless of age, should not get H.S. games.
If you really want to encourage the next generation, give them assignments with good officials. All too often, the typical high school crew consists of one competent official (if that) and two posers. And our local high school assigner defends his choices with all the usual huffing and puffing about a shortage of officials.
Baloney.
Identify, train, certify, employ, encourage and retain good young ones. More quit because of disuse, or abuse from their older colleagues, than because of parental abuse.
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"Identify, train, certify, employ, encourage and retain good young ones. More quit because of disuse, or abuse from their older colleagues, than because of parental abuse."... this comment is stupid, you can only speak for your son.
Backscreen, Be part of the solution, or shut up. You sound like countless fools who like to complain but do not step up to "fix" things. If you are unwilling then accept what you get.
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"Stepping up," as you call it, begins in public forums, where legitimate questions are asked and concerns are raised. This is a soccer forum, where I am posting on a thread begun BY SOMEBODY ELSE.
The solution for the fitness issue is simple. A BASIC ANNUAL fitness test, offered on a quarterly basis, including certain age-based MINIMAL standards for (let's say) a 2-mile run and interval training. Fail the test once: retake next quarter. Fail retake: probation and retake following quarter. Fail second retake: immediate loss of certification/assignments.
The solution for in-game evaluation (at each level) is fairly simple. Coaches submit mandatory post-game evals (as short and simple as GOOD, AVERAGE, or NEEDS IMPROVEMENT) to an assigner/evaluator who follows up with his own evaluation for those officials who repeatedly fall short.
The solution for "mentoring" is simple. WHEN POSSIBLE, each crew includes a veteran, mid-level or higher official and AT LEAST one younger official who is learning his/her trade. At least 3X per "season," younger officials are formally evaluated by their "mentors."
To improve certification classes: 1) Limit the classroom time to 4 hours/year. 2) Add an outdoor component that includes fitness testing and situational instruction.
To limit conflicts of interest, require each official to fill out a bio form that includes affiliation with schools/coaches/etc., AND allows each official the opportunity to identify any prospective problem assignment.
To help offset the salary issue, establish PERFORMANCE-BASED pay scale, with enhancements for additional training/classes completed.
Any LEGITIMATE official who wants to contact me privately may do so by private message.
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Goal
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Quote:
"Stepping up," as you call it, begins in public forums, where legitimate questions are asked and concerns are raised. This is a soccer forum, where I am posting on a thread begun BY SOMEBODY ELSE.
The solution for the fitness issue is simple. A BASIC ANNUAL fitness test, offered on a quarterly basis, including certain age-based MINIMAL standards for (let's say) a 2-mile run and interval training. Fail the test once: retake next quarter. Fail retake: probation and retake following quarter. Fail second retake: immediate loss of certification/assignments.
The solution for in-game evaluation (at each level) is fairly simple. Coaches submit mandatory post-game evals (as short and simple as GOOD, AVERAGE, or NEEDS IMPROVEMENT) to an assigner/evaluator who follows up with his own evaluation for those officials who repeatedly fall short.
The solution for "mentoring" is simple. WHEN POSSIBLE, each crew includes a veteran, mid-level or higher official and AT LEAST one younger official who is learning his/her trade. At least 3X per "season," younger officials are formally evaluated by their "mentors."
To improve certification classes: 1) Limit the classroom time to 4 hours/year. 2) Add an outdoor component that includes fitness testing and situational instruction.
To limit conflicts of interest, require each official to fill out a bio form that includes affiliation with schools/coaches/etc., AND allows each official the opportunity to identify any prospective problem assignment.
To help offset the salary issue, establish PERFORMANCE-BASED pay scale, with enhancements for additional training/classes completed.
Any LEGITIMATE official who wants to contact me privately may do so by private message.
My name is Coach Navarro and I support this message.
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Coach
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I've been following this thread quietly for a bit and thought I'd weigh in briefly from a coach's perspective, both in the high school and club arenas. I first want to support what has been said before in that we need to help cultivate great officials, not just criticize. There are plenty of great examples and role models out there, and here, from my perspective, are the traits that I admire in an official. 1. PLAYER SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT. I'm all for letting the players decide the game on the field, and soccer is a contact sport. To pull a quote from Days of Thunder, "Rubbin' is racin'." The officials I admire most know the difference between "rubbin'" and dangerous play and are quick to draw the distinction with their whistles. They understand that yellow cards when they are deserved earlier in the game can save red cards later, and that nobody wants to discover the line between playing hard and playing recklessly while someone is being carried off the field. 2. Consistency is crucial. The best officials I know call the game the same way in the first minute as in the last, 1-1 or 10-0, regardless of what color jerseys are involved or what happened five minutes ago. We don't expect every official to call the game exactly the same way, any more than we expect every teacher to teach the same subject exactly the same way. There is a certain amount of professional subjectivity that comes with the job and should be expected. But we teach our players the importance of adapting their play to the game conditions--the strengths, weaknesses, and style of play of the other team, the field conditions, the weather, our own fitness, injuries, etc. The officials' style is one of the game conditions that players need to recognize and adapt to, and as long as it is consistent then players can learn quickly to operate under each official's set of expectations. Inconsistent calling, even when it's "make-up calls" for something earlier, causes confusion and frustration on the part of players who are trying to recognize and adapt to the conditions. 3. Be confident, be professional, but don't take yourself TOO seriously. The officials I admire recognize that every coach and every official, no matter how experienced, is capable of making errors. Two of the most memorable conversations I've had with officials (after the game was over and handshakes were exchanged) ended in "Wow, you're right...I was really off-base on that one." In one instance that sentence came from the official; in the other it came from me. Once we accept fallibility in others AND in ourselves, we can work on doing it BETTER rather than getting mad over lack of perfection. As far as someone putting himself above accepting evaluation because he's "been doing it for 25 years" or so, just remember--just because you've been doing it for a long time, that's no guarantee you've been doing it right. Heck, I know people who have been thinking their whole lives, and they're still idiots.  4. Contrary to what has been stated repeatedly here, the best officials recognize that what takes place on the field is NOT "just a game." Done right, sports are so much more than that. We talk to our players about passion, about commitment, about sacrifice, about team over individuality, about the realities of sportsmanship, not just the word. We ask them--and they choose--to make decisions about what is important to them...about what they will invest in, often at the sacrifice of other things. We ask them to learn lessons within the sport about how to treat others, how they should expect to be treated, and most importantly how to respond to the way they are treated. We try to teach things within the game that we hope will be carried far off the pitch and far beyond youth. And if we as adults are truly invested, we ask all of those things of ourselves as well as our players. If, after all of that, we can dismiss what happens on the field as unimportant, as inconsequential, as "just a game"...then I say we have failed in our most important tasks. The best people I know recognize that, and they give the game their best because they do realize that in the bigger picture, it's not "just" a game.
I've got good news and bad news...
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I am around HS soccer and this spring has been especially poor.
Just to confirm this observation, I've been shocked at how bad the officiating has been this season in the HS league. We've had similar conversations. I'm not sure what the reason is, but I've seen a lot of calls that I've never seen in a decade+ of watching.
Could just be coincidence, but definitely something that should be noted.
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College soccer has an annual fitness test and those USSF grade 7 or above officials have one as well. It is much more than a simple 2 mile run. No referee anywhere in the world officiates a match in constant motion. Having someone run a 2 mile test is stupid.
You want to have coaches submit evaluations? There goes the rest of your referees. First, it would never happen in USSF. Only QUALIFIED assessors those that have taken classes, and have been certified officials for a number of years can become assessors, and guess what you can not stop an official from doing games because they failed an assessment. It does not work that way, I know, I have been an assessor for 20 years. Same thing in College, only qualified certified assessors can judge the performance of an official. It will never happen in High School because there are not enough people, and the NFHS prohibits the practice of coaches assessing officials in its Coaches ethics page, so it will never happen. And if it does, I am out of the game, I had a discussion with a coach a number of years ago who told me I was the worst ever because I called the ball out when it was still in the air. I tried to tell him this is not basketball, but he would not listen.
You will also never get a performance based pay system to work either. Most officials are limited by their schedule by the number of games they can do anyway.
Congratulations you have just driven away the last official in the state of South Carolina, all the refereeing is now yours to enjoy.
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I've been following this thread quietly for a bit and thought I'd weigh in briefly from a coach's perspective, both in the high school and club arenas. I first want to support what has been said before in that we need to help cultivate great officials, not just criticize. There are plenty of great examples and role models out there, and here, from my perspective, are the traits that I admire in an official.
1. PLAYER SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT. I'm all for letting the players decide the game on the field, and soccer is a contact sport. To pull a quote from Days of Thunder, "Rubbin' is racin'." The officials I admire most know the difference between "rubbin'" and dangerous play and are quick to draw the distinction with their whistles. They understand that yellow cards when they are deserved earlier in the game can save red cards later, and that nobody wants to discover the line between playing hard and playing recklessly while someone is being carried off the field.
2. Consistency is crucial. The best officials I know call the game the same way in the first minute as in the last, 1-1 or 10-0, regardless of what color jerseys are involved or what happened five minutes ago. We don't expect every official to call the game exactly the same way, any more than we expect every teacher to teach the same subject exactly the same way. There is a certain amount of professional subjectivity that comes with the job and should be expected. But we teach our players the importance of adapting their play to the game conditions--the strengths, weaknesses, and style of play of the other team, the field conditions, the weather, our own fitness, injuries, etc. The officials' style is one of the game conditions that players need to recognize and adapt to, and as long as it is consistent then players can learn quickly to operate under each official's set of expectations. Inconsistent calling, even when it's "make-up calls" for something earlier, causes confusion and frustration on the part of players who are trying to recognize and adapt to the conditions.
3. Be confident, be professional, but don't take yourself TOO seriously. The officials I admire recognize that every coach and every official, no matter how experienced, is capable of making errors. Two of the most memorable conversations I've had with officials (after the game was over and handshakes were exchanged) ended in "Wow, you're right...I was really off-base on that one." In one instance that sentence came from the official; in the other it came from me. Once we accept fallibility in others AND in ourselves, we can work on doing it BETTER rather than getting mad over lack of perfection. As far as someone putting himself above accepting evaluation because he's "been doing it for 25 years" or so, just remember--just because you've been doing it for a long time, that's no guarantee you've been doing it right. Heck, I know people who have been thinking their whole lives, and they're still idiots.
4. Contrary to what has been stated repeatedly here, the best officials recognize that what takes place on the field is NOT "just a game." Done right, sports are so much more than that. We talk to our players about passion, about commitment, about sacrifice, about team over individuality, about the realities of sportsmanship, not just the word. We ask them--and they choose--to make decisions about what is important to them...about what they will invest in, often at the sacrifice of other things. We ask them to learn lessons within the sport about how to treat others, how they should expect to be treated, and most importantly how to respond to the way they are treated. We try to teach things within the game that we hope will be carried far off the pitch and far beyond youth. And if we as adults are truly invested, we ask all of those things of ourselves as well as our players.
If, after all of that, we can dismiss what happens on the field as unimportant, as inconsequential, as "just a game"...then I say we have failed in our most important tasks. The best people I know recognize that, and they give the game their best because they do realize that in the bigger picture, it's not "just" a game.
1. Player safety is paramount. Therefore coaches should not be coaching, period during a match. You should have prepared your team before the match, there was a time when coaches could not coach during a match. If a coach disagrees with a referee's decision and makes it known to everyone in the world, guess what he is now endangering player's safety. Think about it.
2. While consistency is crucial I disagree with the 10-0 game with 30 minutes left. That is where a mercy rule needs to put in place, that is where frustration sets in. Referees need to actually be tighter in that situation. Good referees will instruct their assistants before a match to take a "temperature" of the game. If as the center official I see my AR clutching on to his shorts, I know he wants me to tighten up the calls. The game at the higher levels are never called consistently there is always adjustments going on with the referees. Go on youtube, there should be clips of conversations the referees have during matches, and you can hear the AR tell the center to tighten it up, etc.
3. If you have been officiating for 25 years, have done Division I college matches (the second best level in this country) semi-pro, pro matches, international friendlies, and have assessed and instructed others than you have been doing it right, and the only real criticism you take is from your assistants. Only a handful of coaches can come up to that level. I'm sorry but Murray the 65 year old gym coach who was forced to be the JV Girls soccer coach has nothing to offer me about how to officiate a match. Just like I would have nothing to offer my fellow football, baseball or basketball officials. I don't tell my doctor how to perform surgery or my lawyer the law, etc. YOu don't survive past 5 years as an official if you have been doing it wrong.
4. Again it depends on the level. When you officiate games where the coaches salary and livelihood depends on some calls you make or don't make, you stepped up to an entirely new level. But for High School coaches forget that the game is an extension of the classroom, and I'm sorry I would not want to be in some of the classrooms these coaches teach in.
However most of your post is spot on. Nothing is an absolute in this game, nothing is set in stone it is very fluid. The main point is the game is for the players, whether they be little kids, high schoolers, or adults. Not for the officials, coaches, fans, or parents, and that is the number one problem in South Carolina. People think its for themselves.
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Arrgy: Please reread my post. Regarding fitness, I suggested BASIC guidelines, including a 2-miler AND interval training (which would normally cover some of the stop/start effort by officials). If someone can suggest a better, fairer, more stringent test, I say, DO IT!
Regarding evals: I suggested submission of a VERY basic form to a (presumably qualified) assigner/evaluator, who follows up ONLY in the event of REPEATED problems.
Honestly, this is minimal stuff, and should be supported by ANY official who takes pride in his work and actually wants to meet a "standard." Those who don't? We're better off without them.
In your response to another poster, you refer to "Murray, the 65-year-old gym coach" and the irrelevance of suggestions or evals he may offer. Wow! Your concern is precisely why the eval process should cover a RANGE of input, and prompt follow-up ONLY in the event of a REPEATED problem.
By the way, Murray probably recognizes fitness (or lack of it) when he sees it, and HIS 40-plus years as an Educator/Coach may well imply a level of qualification in competitive sports that trumps even yours.
He's certainly worth a listen.
Ignoring reasonable, constructive input bespeaks a larger problem. And that would be arrogance.
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As with this post and the discussion therein, this is an emotional discussion about what is supposed to be unemotional (objective) subject.
I am for providing feedback on performance IF the emotion can be removed (again objective).
I for one have stated before a game that ref "such and such" is a good referee only to then see them calling a game completely inconsistent with past performance.
It happens they are human and the two man system in HS does not help
One thing that I have always said no matter the sport - you should never let it come down to a call or non-call to determine whether you win or lose
Fitness to officiate a game should be mandatory what that should be I leave to the ref association - assignors should assign games based on competition level, experience and fitness.... but that may trump the $$/game if the experienced guy has to drive a long distance
And lastly; a while back there used to be a ref who lived in the Spartanburg area (I think) that was a normal MLS referee and he did a couple of HS games... an experienced guy, fit and of the highest caliber available... and still half the stadium was unhappy... it is part of the business.
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1. Player safety is paramount. Therefore coaches should not be coaching, period during a match. You should have prepared your team before the match, there was a time when coaches could not coach during a match. If a coach disagrees with a referee's decision and makes it known to everyone in the world, guess what he is now endangering player's safety. Think about it.
I'm thinking about it...and I'm not sure I follow your point here. I agree that a coach openly disagreeing with the way the match is being called does introduce a whole new level of frustration and can undermine the sense of authority that holds players in check. I'm not sure, though, what that has to do with not coaching, period, during a match. Are you saying that a coach reading the situation on the field, seeing problems, and making adjustments is a danger to player safety and somehow undermines the officials? Are you assuming that any coaching input is going to be critical of or counter to the input of the officials? Not sure where you're coming from with this particular point. Please, also, bear in mind that the game at the youth, club, and high school levels is meant to be DEVELOPMENTAL. Sure, at the professional and college levels, the coach and players should, as Sun Tsu put it, know their enemies and themselves prior to the match. A coach would have studied the opponents' style, would have spent hours watching game film, would have a very good idea of exactly how the game would play out and yes, should have prepared the team prior to the match. In youth and high school sports this is not always the case, the information is not always available until the match is in progress, and adjustments need to be made on the field before 40-45 minutes have passed. Add that to the fact that in developmental levels of soccer, many players are still learning the game, and they are in situations that cannot be replicated in practice. A reasonable amount of coaching--not "joysticking"--is necessary in some situations...I've lost count of the number of times I've sent a player to the line to have her say, "Coach, I'll do my best, but you have to talk to me and tell me if I'm doing ok." Maybe you're trying to say that the officials should be the ONLY voice of authority on the pitch--in which case I would say that you can learn to share authority with each other without undermining each other. The coach can definitely have an effect on the way the players respond to the officials--and done right, it can be a very positive one.
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2. While consistency is crucial I disagree with the 10-0 game with 30 minutes left. That is where a mercy rule needs to put in place, that is where frustration sets in. Referees need to actually be tighter in that situation. Good referees will instruct their assistants before a match to take a "temperature" of the game. If as the center official I see my AR clutching on to his shorts, I know he wants me to tighten up the calls. The game at the higher levels are never called consistently there is always adjustments going on with the referees. Go on youtube, there should be clips of conversations the referees have during matches, and you can hear the AR tell the center to tighten it up, etc.
True. Adjustments do sometimes need to be made based on what is happening on the field, but hopefully, if #1 has been followed, they will be MINOR adjustments, not major changes in what is acceptable and what is not. If reasonable shoulder-to-shoulder jockeying for the ball is ok in the beginning of the match, then the slightest touch shouldn't be a foul in the second half if committed by the winning team. If a tackle in the box is a PK in the first half, then the same type of tackle in the box shouldn't be a look-the-other-way in the second half just because the team committing the foul is down a few goals already. Some of the worst disasters I have seen have happened when an official has gone from anything-goes early in the game to everything's-a-whistle late in the match. That's the kind of consistency I'm talking about. If you establish what is safe, acceptable play early in the game, then your adjustments will be reasonable and understandable to the players as the game progresses.
I'm not even going to say "You shouldn't have to get coaching from your AR during the match--you should have prepared yourself before the game," because yes, sometimes the people on the field DO need some input based on what is happening around them. Thanks for making that point.
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3. If you have been officiating for 25 years, have done Division I college matches (the second best level in this country) semi-pro, pro matches, international friendlies, and have assessed and instructed others than you have been doing it right, and the only real criticism you take is from your assistants. Only a handful of coaches can come up to that level. I'm sorry but Murray the 65 year old gym coach who was forced to be the JV Girls soccer coach has nothing to offer me about how to officiate a match. Just like I would have nothing to offer my fellow football, baseball or basketball officials. I don't tell my doctor how to perform surgery or my lawyer the law, etc. YOu don't survive past 5 years as an official if you have been doing it wrong.
We've seen officials at the World Cup (Yes, that's the big one) whose behavior has been so inexplicable that they have been removed from play at that level...yet somehow they reached that point. By your logic, the must have been "doing it right"--yet someone at the highest levels disagreed. I'm sorry, but time spent and levels achieved are no guarantee of excellence...there are gems and there are duds at every level of competition, and even the best are not beyond reproach--and knowing the are not beyond reproach is part of what makes them the best.
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4. Again it depends on the level. When you officiate games where the coaches salary and livelihood depends on some calls you make or don't make, you stepped up to an entirely new level. But for High School coaches forget that the game is an extension of the classroom, and I'm sorry I would not want to be in some of the classrooms these coaches teach in.
And that's the difference...tough as it may be sometimes, most of us value our classrooms, whether they are inside a building or out on the grass. I like to think sometimes at the youth levels of soccer, maybe sometimes we are playing for something even a little more important than one coach's job or salary.
I've got good news and bad news...
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Well said Coach, well said.
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Backscreen here is the food for thought:
1. Fitness cert for officials - who will pay for this not sure you know but if you require this then it will cost.
2. You want assessors to be at the matches - again who pays for this as this will also cost.
3. Where are you going to find all the people that are fit as a fiddle, can run like a world class sprinter, never miss a call. Answer you can't!!!
4. Give you this much, yes there are referee's out there that aren't not as mobile as others, don't apply the Law/Rules like others, misses calls, and such. But and here's the big But if you don't have these referee's out there then you won't be able to have your match as there are not that many referee's out there. This is with any sport not only with soccer.
Now my take yes I would like to see a grade level like USSF and with that fitness and assessments but the hard truth is that the High Schools have the option to pay for a three man system but due to the extra cost elect not to. So if they aren't willing to pay an extra few dollars for a three man system then the chances they would be willing to pay for the other above items would be ZERO chance. Until soccer is taken seriously and supported by the state's, the news media and such things, there won't be to many changes.
The follow up on the assignors, they do what they can to match the referee's to the level of play but there are only a few referee's that work very hard to better themselves and strive to do better with every match, so if you have 10 matches that are barn burners and only 5 top referee's that can handle these type of matches what can the assignors do? I will give you the easy answer, the best they can.
Backscreen I will leave you with this if you want things to improve then I invite you to get involved, get certified, go out to the fields on every Saturday, Sunday and during the week and mentor the referee's and help them to get better. You might ask well how much do I get paid to do this? That would be ZERO!!!!! If we got paid to mentor then you would get more mentors out there but where would that money come from? Here again it would come out of your pocket as a parent so are you willing to pay an extra $100 per player each season? I will tell you that very few parents would do this. If you have any positive input please feel free to share it with us. I will now have to leave to head to the soccer field to mentor 5 matches today my question to you is what are you going to do today to help improve the referee's in your local area?
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Gotta say, Michael, that's nothing but a bunch of excuses.
1) Fitness: If you are fit, you take it once a year. Unfit, multiple times. That is called incentive. Make it part of the certification class. Not exactly undoable.
2) Assessors: As described above, ONLY at a single match involving an official with multiple, recurring strikes on post-game evals by coaches. In other words, rarely.
3) Nobody asked for ANY of that -- just people who meet a minimal fitness standard, are willing and able to keep up with play, and make an effort to get it right. Answer: YOU CAN!!!
4) The "threat" of not having enough officials is a smokescreen. My guess would be, develop a level of pride and consistency in training and evaluation, and you might get MORE YOUNG PEOPLE into officiating. People who want to be the best want to work with the best.
In summary, I would GLADLY give my time on a regular basis to meet with assigners, evaluators, etc., in an effort to develop a better system. What we have now is limping along. We CAN make it better, if established officials (such as yourself) would get on board and stop with the litany of excuses.
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I told myself that I would leave this discussion when Backscreen said that he would be willing to listen to any “LEGITIMATE” officials. Despite my refereeing resume, I’m not sure I meet that standard.
However, as a long time parent, coach, fan and referee, and especially as the dad of a young referee that Mr. Shealy has provided mentorship to, I need to say that I fully support the efforts of people like him, and less so the on-line rantings of anonymous Internet posters (of which I am one).
Is everything perfect in HS refereeing? Most certainly not in my area of the state.
Am I doing everything I can to improve it? Probably not.
Am I going to try to make it better? Yes, on the pitch, not on a discussion board.
Backscreen, while you raise some great points, and I wish we could implement your vision for the future of refereeing, please refrain from telling a person like Michael that he’s got “nothing but a bunch of excuses.” He’s a class act.
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FWIW:
Been out of the game for several years. Thought about maybe getting back into it. Went to an organizational meeting, same general leadership, same general discussion about ways to make it better.
Been reading this, the annual referees stink thread. Different vocal posters, same general comments, same general concepts about how to make it better.
End result, I will continue to enjoy my time being an occasional spectator.
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same topic on-going for 10+ years.
Usually for things to change from the way “it’s always been” requires a change at the top level and not the bottom. Adding new talent at the bottom doesn’t work since the ones at the top are protecting their “turf”. And, too much promotion from within makes it more challenging for progressive change to take place or new ideas to be considered. Change is hard to make work and takes solid leadership at the top to make it happen.
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Lurker2: "Excuses" may seem harsh to you. Give me a better word for a general unwillingness to implement, or even consider, the most basic, common-sense suggestions. All I ever hear is: 1) How much it would cost; 2) How hard current officials have it now; and/or 3) It's not logistically possible.
NOTHING I have suggested above is prohibitively expensive, time-consuming or unrealistic. All it suggests is a standard.
As to anonymity, I am willing to meet with any official, or group of officials, face-to-face, at a mutually agreeable place/time to discuss ideas to improve this aspect of the game. I am easy to contact right here.
I have yet to hear from ANYONE.
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Backscreen, provide your name, number, and private email address so someone can contact you. If you are unwilling, you are just another message board "troll".
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I will respond to ANY message sent directly to me via the private message component on this board.
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And just sent one to Michael.
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Chelsea Fan, provide your name, number, and private email address so someone can contact you. If you are unwilling, you are just another message board "troll".
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Touche, however I have no issues with the referees. If this person is so critical, put your name out there for people to see. Instead you sit behind your computer and tear others down.
I may not agree with every call an official makes, but I accept the fact that they are doing their best. I am a coach and player who respects their authority. I would guess that Backscreen (whomever he/she is) is nothing more than another know-it-all parent who is living vicariously through their child. If it's not the referee, then it's the coach or club that is not performing up to their standards. I would also guess that this person has never played, coached, or officiated a match in their life.
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The functional word there being "guess." As I said before, I have sent Private Messages to several folks here. Waiting for responses.
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After taking a little time to read the whole thread, I guess I can interject a few things.
1) In Illinois we have a rating system in place to rate the officials. It is done by the coaches...and there have not been any huge defections. You would think that this would weed out the bad referees, but it does not. It just limits some of the worst ones from doing playoff games. There is a shortage of referees in our area, so the bad ones still have to be used on occasion. Our officials are also rated in a few other ways....on a top 15 list (each coach picks the top 15 referees that they would want to ref their games, and puts it on a list....this rating is compiled across the state...and the more top 15 lists that you get put on, the higher your ranking points are). We are also ranked on past playoff experience, knowledge of the rules, consistency of our calls, professional appearance (backscreen's ultimate definition of a referee, fitness), positioning during the game, and professionalism. I am sure there are other ratings that I am leaving out...but just so you know arrgy....it has not destroyed the soccer official profession here in Illinois.
2) I take what backscreen has with a grain of salt when it comes to fitness. I understand that you don't want a huge fat guy out there trying to keep up with play, or an 80 year old that can't keep up....that is just ridiculous. But your harping on fitness being the end all be all is a bit much. I am in pretty good shape...but could stand to lose that final 15-20 pounds. Like most referees...I have 3 kids, work a full time job, have to make all of my kids practices, after school activities, etc...and still have hobbies that I like to do outside of soccer. I also try to work out 3-4 times a week, and stay in shape. When it comes to working everything in during my week...I am not going to lie...I should work out more, but it just isn't going to happen. Backscreen, I have seen referees that are in awesome shape take the rules and twist them into something that makes the game of soccer painful to watch. There is WAY more than just pure fitness involved with refereeing a game. Your point is taken that you have to have people that are in reasonable shape to referee a quality game...but your enfatuation with it is extreme. You leave out so much more when you purely focus on fitness.
3) I also take offense to Backscreen saying that referees have no say in the games that they go do. That is the job of the assignor. Come on now, what crack are you smoking here? I am not going to drive more than 30 minutes normally to referee a soccer game any more (even if my assignor wants me to). Just isn't going to happen....there are plenty of coaches that ask for me to come do games in their area, but I have way too much going on to drive that far. So I limit where I am going to do games geographically. Secondly, I have certain places that I don't like to referee because they have rednecked/obnoxious fans that are beyond annoying....so much so that they cause problems in the stands with other fans, get into it with school officials, have no problems following an offical out to their car if their team lost and threaten them etc. I don't want to be anywhere around these types of fans, so I choose not to go to those schools/places. In fact, I tell my assignor not even to assign me a game at those places, because I will either outright refuse the game, or I will give the game to another referee to cover for me. I am providing a service by refereeing, and I am not going to go to certian schools/places...that is the end of that discussion.
4) In high school, we have 3 levels of officials here in Illinois. As a certified official, I can rate other officials, and provide mentoring to them on the field, and after the game. I try to do this, and I try to give constructive feedback to new officials. I also take to heart if someone is willing to tell me if I am out of position, or am doing something not up to par during a game. I may not like to hear it...but I know that I have areas to improve in too. I do like the leveling of officials.
5) Backscreen, I have messaged you before, and you never returned a response, so don't act all high and mighty.
Backscreen, what you say are excuses are sometimes just plain reality. We do have a shortage of officials where I live, not a smokescreen. You should see the amount of emails that I get to help out with more games because they can't cover all of the games that they have. the development of pride to get more young people into officiating is a noble idea. The unfortunate reality is that the young people that I talk to that quit refereeing was not because of lack of games/lack of quality games, it was that they were no longer going to take the abuse from fans and coaches. And I helped mentor these younger referees within our officials association. You are taking an over simplistic view of the situation, and are overlooking the reality.
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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James, I've gone back through all received message since 2010 -- all that I've gotten -- and unless you've changed your handle, there is none from you.
I strongly disagree on the fitness issue. Physical fitness is a BASELINE qualification. Kind of like 20/20 vision. And based on my VERY MODEST suggestions above, it sounds like you'd probably pass, even 15-20 pounds overweight. You're right that fitness is no guarantee of competence. But visible LACK of fitness invites all kinds of problems when a call is (inevitably) missed because the ref or AR is 30 yards behind the play. When the goal is AUTHORITY, perception IS important. That's why you wear a nice uniform, and not ratty gym shorts.
You're also right about referees having SOME (very limited) say in assignments, but based only on geography/logistics. When presumably good officials (such as yourself) refuse assignments at certain venues because of "redneck" fans, they leave those matches to lesser colleagues. The REALITY is, good referees should work the difficult or "hot" venues precisely because they're most qualified to defuse problems BEFORE they start. Strong officials ACCEPT a challenge; they don't pass it off to less experienced or less qualified counterparts.
MORE TO COME
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MORE -- What I do appreciate is the dialogue. There is a middle ground. What bothers me is resignation to the status quo. If it's not working, let's give some reasonable thought to changing it. Let's not just sit around and say why it can't be improved. Or worse, dismiss all criticism outright as the rantings of a soccer parent.
As I've said here before, assuming that all parents/fans are some unqualified to comment is not a constructive behavior.
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The suggestions made in order to assist the referee's in the performance of their jobs all seem to be reasonable when applied with common sense. I think what frustrates people outside the officiating community is that how fast the wagons are circled when anything about an official is questioned. Sure its a thankless position, sure they are underpaid, sure they are human, sure some are working way below their skill level, sure some are biased, sure some are just not cut out to be officiating. We must applaud the dedication of those who work so hard to manage the game, we also must re train or re educate those who try and control the game due to ego or bias or anything that is self serving. We should never be having this conversation as they should be invisible and never make an impact on the game. But there is only one problem and that we are all human which really only becomes a problem when we neglect to acknowledge our mistakes.
The player is forced to acknowledge and take responsibility for his mistake with a foul or card. The coach and team also has to take responsibility. Ultimately being rewarded with a win or loss. Does a ref even have his pay cut? Loose assignments? etc.
I think what back screen really wants to know is why is there never any conversation when something is so obvious and egregious that it is ignored. I think it would be enlightening to have a response other than we are shorthanded or we cant do that.
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Common sense ideas are good, and general fitness where the referee doesn't look like they are going to die after 20 minutes of running around is good too. While I agree that the referee should just blend into the game, and should go unnoticed, you really get in the spotlight when you make that call in the 78th minute that is a PK. No matter what you do, the whole stadium knows you are there at that point.
While I do agree with backscreen about general fitness, I am a bit concerned as to why he doesn't think that the referee should have a say in where he/she goes to ref. If I don't want to be there, I am already in a mindset that is not beneficial to the game. When I show up to a game, I usually go down the road that this is a great day to be outside playing soccer. I don't want to show up and think, oh God, what crap is going to go on again this time that I am going to have to controll. Is it the coach? Do I have to show him a card in the first 5 minutes of the game to shut him up? Is it the fans? Do I have to tell the AD to make sure they aren't saying anything racially motivated to the players of the away team? Do I have to worry about a parent walking out on the field and confronting my AR because he didn't like the offsides call? These are bush-league worries that I don't want to deal with. You may say that I should relish the work that I have to do to control these games. I look at it as, why would I go ref at a place like this on purpose? Why would I put myself in a position to be denigrated and belittled? I understand having my calls questioned...it is up to the coaches to lobby me, and usually the fans crack me up with what they come up with....but some places are so filled with hate and discontent that I have absolutely no desire to go ref there.
It is no different than working a job at a place that you want to work. You have a choice.
Surprise, surprise...I still agree with a lot of what backscreen said though...you all need a rating system in SC for the referees, and you need to have some accountability to the quality of games that you referee, and the way you look, and your professionalism. And I will say that we do have some issues with older referees still getting games that they shouldn't be getting anymore. Those referees need to gracefully start to step aside into more of a mentor role, and less of an active refereeing role. JMO
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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I do think more experienced referees are needed in the most meaningful games and I think the less emotional and less biased referees are the ones needed in those situations and not necessarily the most physically fit or whom has the most certifications. Picking games because of their location or fans or coaches is BS. Which bothers you? a parent who is unknowledgeable at a non soccer school?, a know it all group of parents at a perennial power? a school located in a poverty stricken area? a school in a high traffic yuppie area? a football coach just trying to make a difference as a soccer coach? a experienced soccer coach starting to ask for calls before the National Anthem is completed?.
suggestion, before officiating a match speak with AD about parental expectations and security. Talk with coaches and captains before game about what your expectations for the game will be.
Honestly I do thing you may have a great idea but with one qualifier. If any coach objects to a particular official for any reason then they can't officiate any of their matches. Kind of a goose and gander thing.
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Quote:
The player is forced to acknowledge and take responsibility for his mistake with a foul or card. The coach and team also has to take responsibility. Ultimately being rewarded with a win or loss. Does a ref even have his pay cut? Loose assignments? etc.
Interesting that you should say that. In the college level yes, the referee takes responsibility. A National Florida official who was the president of his association messed up a college game. He was banned from doing games for one year, by the conference he messed up in. So it does happen.
By giving all the "hot" games to the good officials. All that does is burn out the good officials who go out there EVERY time and trying to referee a war. Its not fair to them and not fair to the young guys who want to move up.
I don't hand pick my games, but I will give a list of schools that I won't do for whatever reason. And I think in our capitalist system, that is fine. We did not sign any long term contract, and we are not doing professional games that is our only source of income. Some of the coaches in my area who are really hard on referees have learned that they will never get what they think are the "good" officals because of their behavior. So in a sense by the "good" officials not doing some teams, they are slowly changing some behavior of coaches, teams, etc.
Finally, since we are all a small community, we all know our officials and coaches very well. If you see a guy come out who you know will call a fair game, and for what ever reason just has a bad night, let that official (in a nice way) that he had a clunker. Or that the coaches made it more difficult for him/her then it should have been. That is all a good official wants to hear after a bad game.
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Please reread. Nowhere did I say that all "hot" games should get nothing but top officials. I believe I said that I disagree with top officials routinely asking off "hot" games for no reason other than the heat. You should take your share, as they are assigned. No more. No less.
If you go back over the entire thread, I seem to recall saying that EACH game should have a "lead" caliber person, a "young" comparative newcomer and a third. The assigner should know which games figure to be bigger/hotter/tougher/whatever, and assign accordingly.
As to the idea that certain coaches are indirectly punished or disciplined by not getting referees who have asked off their matches ... Wow!
You wonder why many coaches, players and parents don't trust officials. Think about that one for a minute. You're essentially admitting that you hold a grudge and don't mind "punishing" a coach. Where's the possibility that a coach might change for the better WITHOUT your "discipline"? Where do you draw the line?
To me, that borders on a disqualifying bias for ALL matches.
You are essentially asking OFF matches for personal reasons, with the result that you are essentially asking ON to OTHER matches for the same personal reasons. Do you get to pick matches because you like a school/coach/players/parents?
If you can't manage those basic emotions, you shouldn't officiate.
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Backscreen, most referees don't "routinely" ask off hot games. Most have places that they don't like to go referee...that's the end of it. Those referees take their share of hard games at other venues, that is all.
Your second point is well taken.
I don't know of any coaches that are punished or disciplined by not getting referees. I do know certain programs that get OK to subpar referees because the "good" referees don't want to go deal with their bush league behavior. It is what it is, but these coaches or programs bring it on themselves.
Of course referees remember what coaches have a tendency to do. Ever heard of the phrase, forgive them but don't forget? That is what we do. I have made a comment to a coach, that even though he gets on my nerves, I will still call a fair game. You can really, really dislike a coach, but still call a good game. I know, I have done it.
If being human is a disqualifier for all matches, you better just go to robots to officiate a match.
BTW, I never ask specifically for a school or coach, I just say where I don't want to go. The rest is done by the assignor. Plus we have to fill out a form about where we went to school, and any personal conflicts with refereeing at any school.
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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James, I suspect you and I could talk about this on a rational positive basis.
In this thread, I've seen one official admit he asks off games because of real or imagined heat from coaches, fans, etc., and another condone that behavior by suggesting that officials effectively improve coaches' behavior by not taking those assignments. (And letting lesser officials work those games.)
Again, I say WOW!
Now suppose, just suppose, you ask off a match involving Coach X and his band of hooligan players and parents. So someone else -- quite possibly not as qualified -- gets that match and has to deal with the same issues. And because he's not qualified, he misses a call or two, then gets jumped after the game in the parking lot. If I had ducked that game, and subjected a lesser colleague/peer to verbal abuse OR WORSE, I'd hang my head in shame.
Yes, by all means, geography should be a factor in assignments, although the flipside might be perceived homer-ism. And yes, conflicts of interest SHOULD be identified and avoided ON THE FRONT END.
But in the end, good officials, like elite athletes, step up. They rise to a higher level. Anything less calls into question their ability to work ANY game fairly. And that perception KILLS the good refs more than the bad ones.
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Why not make it a 2-strike pass. Each Coach gets 2-strikes on officials they would not like to officiate their matches. Each Official would get 2-strikes on schools they would not officiate. Then let the chips fall where they may.
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Backscreen, then consider me a bad official. I am OK with that. Just know that when I go home at the end of a game, I know I did a good job.
If an official got jumped after a game, that would be too bad, but that would not be on me (even if I refused the game). I would not hang my head in shame either, I would think.. "no wonder I didn't want to go there and do a game". I have a responsibility to come home to my wife and kids in one piece, and that trumps anything that you can attempt to shame me with.
Feel free to call into question my ability to work any game fairly, and feel free to think that it hurts the referee profession. I can give you a list of coaches, players and other officials that would disagree with that statement. Your blanket statement like that shown above should make you think introspectively why young referees don't continue on....because of ignorant perceptions like you just displayed. It is ideas like that that cause the problems I see at matches.
If you live up to your own expectations that you expect everyone in the soccer community to live up to, I would fully be surprised.
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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United Parent....that is not a bad idea. At least everyone would know where they stood.
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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Quote:
I don't know of any coaches that are punished or disciplined by not getting referees. I do know certain programs that get OK to subpar referees because the "good" referees don't want to go deal with their bush league behavior. It is what it is, but these coaches or programs bring it on themselves.
This is exactly 100% correct. Programs bring it on themselves. As an independent contractor, I am free to tell my assignor where I do not want to go for whatever reason. And no one is putting a gun to my head to tell me where to go. It should not be some great shock to the soccer community. Good referees are not out to punish these coaches by not going there, but after 5 or 10 seasons of never seeing a good referee, you would think some coaches would look into the mirror and realize that the way do things is the problem.
All most referees ask for is for teams to be knowledgeable about the rules. Teams to keep their comments and opinions to themselves, and allow referees to do their job without a running narration of every single play. Most referees do this all year round at all levels. I see more matches in a year from all the College, H.S., Youth, and Amateur games I do, then most coaches will see in their lifetime. I do more college matches (50) in one season alone, then most High School coaches do in two seasons, give us a little credit for having much much more experience at higher level games.
Coaches need to learn that the match is an extension of the classroom, and how they behave on the field is how they should behave in a classroom with an administrator present. It is never acceptable for a coach to yell across the field at another adult, under any circumstance. Why referees tolerate it in South Carolina is beyond me. And instead of dealing with same nonsense over and over again, its easier to say to the assignor let someone else deal with them, and if enough referees decide the same thing, maybe things with that program will change. Why Athletic Directors who go to some of these games and witness the behavior of some of their coaches not step and say something is also beyond me.
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QUOTE:
So in a sense by the "good" officials not doing some teams, they are slowly changing some behavior of coaches, teams, etc.
RESPONSE: You are kidding, right?
Really guys, all this does is pass the buck and punish kids, who deserve better. It rationalizes a poor choice.
I say again ...
Nothing I have suggested here is unrealistic, unfair or onerous. A MODEST fitness check. A MODEST tweak in evaluation. A MODEST call for accountability. A MODEST call to step up.
Most professional people appreciate accountability precisely because it weeds out those colleagues who bring their profession into disrepute. Who are you protecting? Why so defensive?
I Do agree with the classroom/sideline analogy, to a point, though I prefer the classroom/training analogy. The sideline is the "final exam." One thing I'd say about the classroom: as a teacher/coach, I'm expected to give my best to ALL students/athletes, not just those I prefer working with. I don't get to blackball a kid or parent.
I'd point out that coaches do occasionally yell at officials for VALID reasons: 1) To protect their players' physical safety; 2) To make officials aware of potentially unsafe or unfair conditions; 3) Because poor officiating can compromise their coaching careers.
Many coaches (especially at the college level) are evaluated based on wins and losses. They are not "independent contractors" who can turn down scheduled matches because they don't like a long bus ride or a hostile crowd. Years ago, I coached in a league that included an opponent whose adult fans were openly hostile and borderline threatening to some of our players and staff. But we couldn't blackball THEM -- without risking forfeit -- even though it would have saved us a 150-mile round trip and some verbal abuse on game day. So we played, and when we faced that same team at our place, we went out of our way to be hospitable. We considered it a teaching/learning opportunity.
One or two of the whinier officials here would do well to do the same.
That said, I agree with a limited two-way blackball system. Coaches can blackball 1 official per season for "unspecified reasons." Officials can blackball 1 coach OR venue for "unspecified reasons." I can tell you as someone who has coached high school sports that many coaches WILL NOT blackball an official precisely because they're concerned about reprisals from that officials' colleagues.
The bottom line is respect.
I've attended approximately 180 high school, college, club, Academy and pro soccer games over the last four years. In most of those, I've had a dog in the fight. I can't remember the last time I "yelled" at an official. If the crew walked by me on its way out, I thanked them or simply said "good game."
Some here say, be part of the solution. I am trying. Are they? Are you?
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kinda new here and new to being a ref.
like both despite flamers.
refs are paid and fill out 1099 forms for public/private hs games, so income is reported to irs.
fans/parents/coaches who cry about every call, be a good sport, there is two sides to every call not just yours
Just like the rest of life, some are better then others,most try to do their best.
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This is the same conversation, year over year.
Refs are humans just like everyone else. Some kind of feedback system would be great. You can not expect perfection. Without feed back you cannot expect improvement either.
If you study greatness, feedback is a MUST, (practicing perfect). Surgeons get better with age, and family doctors go the other way,or their skills flatten out. The reason is surgeon gets real feedback, FAST. Family doctors connection to results is not as clear cut.
I have watched hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of matches, both of my kids are physical players. IMHO overall the refs let the girls get away with too much. A cleaner game will be more fun to watch, higher scoring, and will improve creativity, something American soccer needs. "Letting them play", hurts the kids and the game.
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RESPONSE: You are kidding, right?
Really guys, all this does is pass the buck and punish kids, who deserve better. It rationalizes a poor choice.
In response to that...I am not punishing anybody. How am I passing the buck? This is not on me, no matter how you put it. The punishment to the kids would be hiring a coach that is abusive, or allowing fans/players/parents to get out of hand at an event.
The other thing that you have got to understand is that I referee because it is fun, it can be challenging at times, but it is still fun. If it ever becomes not fun, I'm done. I enjoy getting outside for some fresh air, getting some exercise, providing what I think is above average refereeing skills, and in the end some givng back to the game. If I had to put up with abuse all of the time, I would stop refereeing games. I have better things to do with my life than put up with that. I could run more races with my family, I could spend more time up at the cabin on the water with my family, etc....
It isn't a job for me, I don't need the money...and when it comes down to why referees ref.....it is because they like it, and it is fun. Take that away, and then you would only have the referees that are in it for the money, and I can gurantee they aren't the best ones out there!
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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So, status quo and the usual "we'll quit"?
Now, I understand.
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I posted this is the Boys Varsity Soccer section, and never heard a word. I wonder if someone in this thread would have an opinion?
"I have a question re: this game for coaches and especially referees. Foul was committed in the box in this game, resulting in a yellow card. (Player with the ball fouled by the last defender). Fouling player subsequently kicked the player he fouled intentionally after the whistle. This did result in an appropriate red card. Here's my question: ultimate result of the play was a goal kick for the team which had committed the foul(s). I'm not a ref, not a coach, but don't understand how that's possible. Referees explanation was that the ball was out of the box when the foul was called. (Can't confirm that). Foul was definitely way inside the 18."
Go Blue!! Go Canes!!
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If the ball was out of touch before the contact it is not a foul. From your description it sounds like ref properly cautioned defending player but he couldn't award a foul since a foul can only be committed by a player while the ball is in play. So the fact the offense took place in the penalty box is not material and the correct restart is a goal kick. Now if the ball wasn't yet out of touch it would be a pk.
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Quote:
If the ball was out of touch before the contact it is not a foul. From your description it sounds like ref properly cautioned defending player but he couldn't award a foul since a foul can only be committed by a player while the ball is in play. So the fact the offense took place in the penalty box is not material and the correct restart is a goal kick. Now if the ball wasn't yet out of touch it would be a pk.
Thanks for clarifying.
Go Blue!! Go Canes!!
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Backscreen, do you not agree with the statement that it is the schools fault for having a coach that would treat referees/players with such disdain? Just trying to get a clarifying answer from you.
I love how you always bring it back to the referee as being in the wrong. Maybe you should spread some blame on the coaches/administrators/parents a bit too.
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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By the way...is the air a little thin up there on your soap box? Because you seem to be rather high at the moment....
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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James, of course, you're right. Some coaches cross the line. Can schools do better? Sure. But then, at some schools in South Carolina, that same awful coach might just respond to YOUR suggestions as follows:
1) Have you ever coached?
2) What do you expect for the pitiful stipend you're giving me?
3) But you're making me work with awful parents, players and officials.
4) I do this "for fun." Eliminate the fun, and ...
5) I quit. Find somebody better.
Sound familiar?
My point throughout has been simple. Let's take certain minimally invasive steps to improve officiating. All I've heard is why we CAN'T. You're right, the soapbox is a bit lofty and the air may be thin. Then again, ground-floor mediocrity and excuse-making ain't getting it done. The smog of everyday officiating must be clouding your judgment.
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Had to laugh last night. Center ref awarded a PK for a foul in the box. We did it, they should have gotten a PK.
What followed was mind blowing. The ref allowed two of their players in the box. One pushed a pass forward to other one who blasted the ball from an angle. Our keeper stopped it... But what the heck was that?
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If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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Goal
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In a game where it is 2 Ref System and the game is tied 1 - 1 at half. One of the referees could no longer continue so they suggested we went straight to PK's or play the other half with volunteer refs for out of bounds balls. Ummm.... Can you go to PK's right after 1 half? I was a little thrown off when they said it.
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You can't go to PKs after 1 half, but the game can be ended right there. You just need to have 1 half complete for it to be considered a full game.
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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It is, what it is! And this all is for HS rules below. A little different for USSF. And what i mean different is the restarts.
explain a little more.
Were both players standing inside the Penalty area when the ball was touched? If yes, this is Considered to be encroachment.
Or was the ball touched forward and an attacking player ran from outside the area and attempted to kick it into the goal? If yes, this is a legal play on the ball.
If an attacking player infringes as in the first instance, keeper saves and holds ball play continues with keeper in possession. If keeper deflects the ball back in play or out over the goal line, restart is IFK at the spot of the infraction. If the ball goes out over the goal line with no other player touching, goal kick.
If the ball had entered the goal, it is to be retaken. yep.
Hope this helps.
Last edited by Nuke 'em if you got 'em; 04/18/13 01:59 PM.
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Quote:
Had to laugh last night. Center ref awarded a PK for a foul in the box. We did it, they should have gotten a PK.
What followed was mind blowing. The ref allowed two of their players in the box. One pushed a pass forward to other one who blasted the ball from an angle. Our keeper stopped it... But what the heck was that?
This all happened in the box, all at once. One did not come into the box later. They started within two arm lengths... WAY inside the box.
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I hope the goalie kept possession and the referee made the right call and allowed play to continue because of the stupidness of the additional attacker in the area.
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You can't go to PKs after 1 half, but the game can be ended right there. You just need to have 1 half complete for it to be considered a full game.
But if games are not allowed to end in a tie, wouldn't we have to go to PK's? Doesn't it say that a "winner" must be determined. We played the second half, but I am just wondering. 
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She blocked it off the end line. Our expert said as soon as the second one touched it, it was illegal and should have been a kick from that spot, for us.
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Coach
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If the players from the attacking team were already inside the penalty area when the kick was taken, it would be encroachment whether or not the second player touched the ball. In that situation:
1. If the goal is scored, it is nullified and the kick is retaken.
2. If the goal is not scored, there is no re-kick. If:
a. the ball crosses the end line untouched, it is a goal kick.
b. the ball rebounds into play or is deflected out of bounds by the goalkeeper, play is stopped and an indirect free kick is awarded at the spot of the encroachment.
c. the keeper saves and holds the ball, play continues from the goalkeeper as normal--no free kick. Sounds like this is what happened...in which case, good officiating!
(This is all, of course, if this was a HS match under NFHS rules; for a club match under the Laws of the Game, an indirect free kick from the spot of the infringement would be the result in any case if the ball did not enter the goal.)
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Why would you ever let encroachment start or continue?
It was two girls, within 6 feet of each other. One passes then one shots.
Our keeper knocks it off the end line. We got a goal kick.
Why not dead at the time the second player touched it, and caused the encroachment to happen?
I cannot tell you how many times I have seen a ref push players back one half or one foot to keep them out of the area. (hint: MANY) I think that is the purpose of the D on the box, right? So all those were wrong, and they should have allowed the encroachment, and all this other mess to happen? (Why would he give them permission to shoot, when the second player was in holding hands distance, before he gave the go ahead?) Not a very logical situation. I respect you and the way you approach things coach, not doubting you... this is however very backwards to me.
I left out the whole game of horrible calls that led to this, Laughable situation, near the end. He may have tied for the worst ref I have ever seen. (Mr. Magoo, from Lexington is right there with him)
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I understand--everyone would be asking, "why did he allow the kick to be taken when players were obviously infringing?" The rules state, though, that in the case of infringement before the kick, the referee allows the kick to be taken. The action AFTER the kick is determined by the result of the kick.
If the kick is successful, it's a wasted effort due to the infringement and has to be retaken.
If the kick is unsuccessful and advantage is in favor of the defending team, play continues as if there was no infringement--no harm, no foul.
If the kick is unsuccessful and the attacking team still gains advantage (the ball is put back into play so that the attacking team has another chance to score), the play is stopped and a kick is awarded to the defending team.
I know, it seems unnecessarily complicated, but there it is. The officials who stop the play to adjust the position of the players prior to the kick are taking a "teachable moment," but they are not really supposed to do that under the rules of the game. If their encroachment costs their team a successful PK attempt, so be it!
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I assume, the rule is intended to allow these things to cover the player rushing in... not holding hands prior to permission.
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Switching sports... but think about it.
In basketball, the ref ensures the lane is clear before the free throw, then, hands the ball to the shooter to shot... A lane violation then turns the ball over, or allows another shot depending on who enters.
You have NEVER seen the ref, give the ball to the shooter with a player standing in the lane. Nor have we seen the ref allow two people at the PK spot for a PK. Those rules have to be for some jack leg rushing in.
Have you ever seen two take a PK?
Last edited by It is, what It is!; 04/18/13 07:29 PM.
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Coach N. As a referee, I can't declare a winner in a case of play ending after one half. That would be up to the HSL. If a referee can't continue, it is out of anyones hands to declare a winner except the high school league. In the case that you talked about with the referee injuring themselves, and was unable to continue in the second half...the game can be stopped there. You cannot go directly to PKs, that isn't allowed, you can only stop the game, and let the HSL sort it out. Where I am now....depending on the conference that I would be in, it would either be a tie, or the game would be replayed at a later date.
I had an injury one time in a state cup quarterfinal game. Had a U-18 guy accidentally step on me when I was back-peddling for a goal kick. It was about 2 minutes before half, and I limped it out until half. I ended up having to talk to the coaches, and had the 4th official come in and do the second half while I was the 4th offical for the second half. That is the only time in the many matches that I have done that I ever had to stop in the middle of a game. To me it was embarassing, but there was nothing I could do.
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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Ok. I didn't think you could do it, but when he gave us the option to, I was confused. Thanks for the responses.
ON ANOTHER NOTE:
2 games in a row of bad officiating. Within 2 games, I have had definition, no doubt, can't deny it, fouls on my players and nothing. My keeper has taken cleats to the head, Player took elbow to the chest and head, and had a Player cleated in the stomach and nothing. No whistle, No breathe, Not even a "hey watch that." I'm sorry, but if the quality of officials keeps dropping, the "beautiful" game will be a black and blue game.
Also, heard from another game that a player slid from behind, which now had possibly ended a player's season and NO CALL. Just makes me shake my head
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Coach N, I have also heard about some pretty suspect refereeing from my dad that is still involved in SC soccer. The stories that he is telling me I can't believe that the officials could possibly be that bad. But, reading everything on here it is telling me that you guys in SC have an epidemic of poor officials with no recourse to get them better. I would suggest putting a rating system in place, and start to weed out the bad ones. At our local association, we have blacklisted certain officials from being able to do varsity matches. The referees should be policing themselves to prevent a bad image. Our certified referees (we have three high school level referees in IL...registered, recognized and certified) have the ability to rate other officials that they referee with. That might not be a bad idea for you guys either.
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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Well along with the poor officiating, we are also short on officials. It's an endless cycle really until some one breaks it. Parents/Players who may be interested in officiating see/hear the game officials get belittled and fussed at which turns some away from wanting to do it which then leaves us with lesser quality to choose from. I will be going through this thread and reading all the systems people have suggested and see what ways they can be fit to our State. If no one else pushes something like this forward, the quality is going to keep getting worse. And if no one wants to do it, I'll do it. Good refs should get recognized for their good officiating and lesser quality refs should get critiqued, policed, and trained more.
Even from this, I may get chastised or told to shut up, but oh well. I see a severe issue and I am going to confront it.
Last edited by Coach Navarro; 04/19/13 11:54 AM.
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Quote:
Well along with the poor officiating, we are also short on officials. It's an endless cycle really until some one breaks it. Parents/Players who may be interested in officiating see/hear the game officials get belittled and fussed at which turns some away from wanting to do it which then leaves us with lesser quality to choose from. I will be going through this thread and reading all the systems people have suggested and see what ways they can be fit to our State. If no one else pushes something like this forward, the quality is going to keep getting worse. And if no one wants to do it, I'll do it. Good refs should get recognized for their good officiating and lesser quality refs should get critiqued, policed, and trained more.
Even from this, I may get chastised or told to shut up, but oh well. I see a severe issue and I am going to confront it.
I am going to assume this is High School.
1. There are too many games on the same night. Why everyone in the world in certain areas have to play on Friday night, for example, is beyond me. This, of all things, greatly limits the number of officials that can be assigned. Either you need to separate the girls season and boys season or schools need to start playing on other nights.
2. Your assessment system for referees is as only as good as the assessors. Coaches can not be assessors they have a bias, they have a stake in the game. You need people from the referee associations to go out and assess referees. People who are already certified to assess referees by taking the USSF assessors course is a good start.
3. The verbal referee abuse needs to stop, from coaches and spectators. Referees need to stop it with cards or game terminations, and AD's need to stop it by actually going to some of these games to see it first hand. Finally the league needs to start punishing these schools, but you will never get younger referees if it continues.
4. Assistant Referee pay needs to go up to at least 2/3 the pay of the Center Official. In a lot of places it is only half. Some people dont want to go out and run two lines, however, a good AR is worth his weight in Gold.
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1. Absolutely valid point.
2. Disagree. Sure coaches are biased. Sure they have a stake. Which is why you don't act on ONE coach's word, but consider multiple assessments by multiple coaches over time. As I have suggested here.
3. Agree, to a point. Because referees, too, can be biased, you develop a similar system for referees to evaluate schools' "game management." When there is a PERSISTENT problem, cited by MULTIPLE officials, the SCHSL (or whatever governing body you choose) levees fines/suspensions/both. SYSTEM IN PLACE FOR ALL SPORTS. If you've ever been to a high school basketball game, you know that the "abuse" you take in soccer is NOTHING compared with the environment in other sports.
4. Agree. But first, let's institute a valid (or at least better) system of evaluating officials, and reward those who consistently grade out best with better pay.
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Coach
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Have you ever seen two take a PK?
No, but you have!
Seriously, the commonsense thing in that situation would seem to be to tell the second player to move behind the line before the attempt was allowed. By the letter of the law, though, the rules were followed. Now, if the goal had been scored and had been allowed, THAT would have been a true head-scratcher!
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Coach
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I am going to assume this is High School.
1. There are too many games on the same night. Why everyone in the world in certain areas have to play on Friday night, for example, is beyond me. This, of all things, greatly limits the number of officials that can be assigned. Either you need to separate the girls season and boys season or schools need to start playing on other nights.
Part of the allure of Friday night is probably an attempt to build a fan base in areas that are conditioned to the ways of pigskin football--Friday night is game night, and also not a work night for many, so that's when you get your crowds and therefore your revenue. Another reason is to alleviate some of the concern of student athletes being out late on school nights and suffering academically the next morning--Friday night games don't have classroom consequences on Saturday mornings. I agree, though, that it needs to be broken up for the sake of the availability of officials; region coordinators and schedulers could look at scheduling games that involve significant travel time for one team on Fridays, while games with nearby opponents could be scheduled on weeknights, as the students would still be able to get home at a reasonable hour after the match.
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2. Your assessment system for referees is as only as good as the assessors. Coaches can not be assessors they have a bias, they have a stake in the game. You need people from the referee associations to go out and assess referees. People who are already certified to assess referees by taking the USSF assessors course is a good start.
I agree that coaches have a natural bias, as they have a stake in the game. That does not rule out the possibility that other assessors would also have other kinds of bias--for example, protecting the professional image of the officials as a group. At school, while students are certainly biased about their ratings of teachers on disciplinary matters, the administrators who handle the referrals would also prefer to err on the side of the teacher if possible--it helps to maintain the authority of the system. I would like to think, though, that the majority of adults are capable of giving useful feedback even under the influence of bias. As a coach, I believe you should respect a match well-called even when the decisions don't go your way.
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3. The verbal referee abuse needs to stop, from coaches and spectators. Referees need to stop it with cards or game terminations, and AD's need to stop it by actually going to some of these games to see it first hand. Finally the league needs to start punishing these schools, but you will never get younger referees if it continues.
Agreed. Abuse solves nothing, helps no one, and creates further problems. I would personally appreciate feedback if there is inappropriate crowd interaction, as coaches often completely "tune out" what is coming from the stands behind our backs and are totally focused on the field.
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4. Assistant Referee pay needs to go up to at least 2/3 the pay of the Center Official. In a lot of places it is only half. Some people dont want to go out and run two lines, however, a good AR is worth his weight in Gold.
Agreed...a good AR makes a huge difference in a well-called match. I was just looking at the figures...we could accomplish the 2/3 standard by adding about $10 to each AR's pay per game. That's $20 per game. For an 18-game schedule with half of those at home, this adds up to about $180 per season...the cost of three good-quality game balls, and not enough to make or break any program. If it makes a difference in getting quality people their due, I wouldn't argue.
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I can't believe the pay is that different....holy cow. Here, if I go do a JV/V match, 2 man followed by a 3 man, I make $104. If I just walk in and do the center for the varsity match (because that is the way we do it around here..the 2 from the JV game are the ARs), I get $59 for the 1 game center. It works well around here.
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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If we are talking USSF, you do get quite a bit less in a game if you are the AR. Here it is about the same 2/3 or so if you are the AR...not really that fair, but if you rotate through the officials, then it comes out even.
If you are going to argue a point, at least get factual information to back up your side.....
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Quote:
Quote:
Have you ever seen two take a PK?
No, but you have!
Seriously, the commonsense thing in that situation would seem to be to tell the second player to move behind the line before the attempt was allowed. By the letter of the law, though, the rules were followed. Now, if the goal had been scored and had been allowed, THAT would have been a true head-scratcher!
I am going to assume you mean something like this:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/43377/new_way_of_penalty_kick/
Remember its called a Penalty KICK, not a Penalty Shot on Goal. There is nothing in the law that states you must take a shot on goal, the only requirements are that the ball is kicked and it goes forward.
Last edited by arrgy; 04/20/13 02:44 PM.
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I've seen that one...yep, it's legal, the ball just has to be played in a forward direction and the original kicker can't touch it again until it has been touched by another player. The issue in this case was apparently that both players were already inside the penalty area when the kick was taken, not one running in from the top of the box after the ball was played as in the video.
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Correct Coach, we know during a match the shot can be finished, we have put rebounds in ourselves. This was not a run on, it was a standing there ready waiting.
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Maybe the ref ruled for an indirect PK ;-}
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No...  wish it was that easy  We have seen a few of those before.
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Had a JV and Varsity game last night. This is the first time I had last night's officials. I will say, so far the Best 2 referees I have had this season. Took 16 games but finally got some good refs. They missed a call here & there on both teams and had to handle a long injury delay, but overall the officiating was great. We've been talking about the bad officiating, but I want to recognize the 2 refs who actually controlled the game from start to finish: Ernie Levinson and Jason Haggard.
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I applaud you Coach Navarro for recognizing these officials. We also enjoyed good officiating last night and have for most of the year. There are many strong officials out there.
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I applaud you Coach Navarro for recognizing these officials. We also enjoyed good officiating last night...
I can't be one sided. I will speak of those who were terrible and recognize those who did good. I feel they should be applauded for being a good quality official who could actually keep up with the game.
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...and have for most of the year. There are many strong officials out there.
I agree that there are good, strong refs out there, but sadly we haven't been lucky to get them.
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After 12 pages of comments, I think a little break is in order. This is another reason why attracting new refs is tough. Please don't do this to your local refs
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We got the same guy from last game with the crazy call. He centered again. He has made my #1 worst ref ever. Gives one kid a yellow for a 50/50, and not when another lowers a shoulder and blows the kid up. 6 yellows for one team zero for the other... really coach, black ball him already!
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Had a referee last night who may have a short temper.
1) Stick his finger in my player's face.
-It had not been 10 minutes into the game. My forward got called offside a few times and would say, "how?" or "no way!" Nothing demeaning or anything IMO.
2) Got in my keeper's face.
-It was a corner kick for the other team. They had my keeper marked. My keeper had him arm extended to make sure he had space to move. Wasn't physical with it, only extended for space. Ref decided that was physical/rough and went right up to my keeper to warn him.
It doesn't really make sense to me. I know we nitpick about a lot of things, but it takes a big man to get in players' faces.
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