SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Boys Varsity Soccer What's up with the Rankings?

How are the Eurosport Scoreboard rankings produced? I mainly follow the AAAA teams so I am not sure if it is the same for all schools. With the AAAA rankings, it seems like there is absolutely no logic behind them. Is there a group of people that create these rankings? I feel that there are so many questions that can be asked and I am not sure if anyone can justify why some of the teams are even ranked.
Here are some of the situations I do not understand...
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-Socastee beats Clover head to head. Clover also has loses to Wando, Fort Mill, Irmo, and First Colonial(VA). Socastee has loses to Irmo, Nation Ford, St. James, and Myrtle Beach. Clover is #8 and Socastee is #9. Does the head to head match up not matter?

- South Aiken is ranked #7. They have 12 wins, but none of the wins are against another top 15 team. They lost to River Bluff twice and Irmo twice. Are they ranked in the top 10 because they are in the same region as two good teams?

- James Island has a loss to Beaufort, two loses to Wando and a loss to Bishop England. They have not played any other team in the current top 15. What puts them at #10? Is this another region connection?

- JL Mann and Mauldin split head to head. Why is JL Mann #4, but Mauldin is way back at #11. Is it because Mauldin lost to Dorman and Riverside? Did someone forget that Blythewood lost to Dutch Fork and Eastside? And last time I checked Blythewood has not beaten a team in the current top 15. Yes, Mauldin is #11 and Blythewood is #6.

- What's wrong with Riverside? They split with #11 Mauldin, tied #9 Socastee, split with #12 Dorman. They do have some losses to #4 JL Mann, Eastside, Myrtle Beach, and a forfeit to Greenville, but you would think they would be ranked with 3 quality results against ranked teams.

- Did someone put a bunch of names in a hat to rank #13, #14 and #15. #13 is Greenwood. They don't even play anyone. They also lost to two unranked teams, Greenville and Hillcrest.
#14 is Bluffton. Who have they beaten? I know they lost to 3 unranked teams (Beaufort, Fort Dorchester, Ashley Ridge)
#15 is TL Hanna. Wait... T.L. Hanna beat Ashley Ridge, Greenville, Hillcrest and split with #13 Greenwood. This seems pretty screwed up.

- Greenville High School- There record is not at all impressive, but they split with both #15 TL Hanna and #13 Greenwood. They also played a true top 15 team, JL Mann and lost 6-0. How does region 1 have two ranked teams?

- What about Wade Hampton-G? Beat Hillcrest (region 1) 4-0, took #11 Mauldin to PKs twice (lost one, won one), lost to #15 TL Hanna in PKs, lost to #4 JL Mann in overtime, then beat #12 Dorman.

- How about Fort Mill? They have 6 losses and 4 of them are to top 15 opponents (#5 Nation Ford twice, #6 Blythewood, and #8 Clover). They also beat a ranked team #8 Clover. I guess region 3 doesn't have a good reputation.
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Do other conferences have the same problems?

I can't tell you how the rankings are produced because I am not involved with that and really if you ask any varsity coach they will tell you they don't care about rankings. Because all that matters going into the playoffs is your seed from your region. I will use my team (TL Hanna) as an example. I happen to agree with you that we don't have any huge wins and it is debatable whether we should be ranked but it doesn't matter because we have the #1 seed from region 1 and home field advantage throughout the playoffs. By the way, we are probably ranked because we have won two tournaments and have the second most wins in state behind Wando but I am just guessing. You do make a great point about Mauldin. They are very good and probably underrated.

I do want to address your attempt at comparing schools by their wins and losses. Since matchups and situations change daily it really can't be done. For instance red cards, unusually bad officiating, personal tragedies, etc. happen all the time and affect wins and losses. Greenwood was affected by that late in the season but will be up to full strength and at home on Tuesday...I expect them to compete very well. Another factor is coaching. Currently lots of schools with bad traditions in soccer have quality coaches. What that means is that the big blowouts are really going away because these coaches are playing the hand that is dealt them and training their boys to play disciplined and physical to prevent goals. I give you another example using a team in our region. We played at Woodmont Thursday and their coach Justin Jones employed a very defensive and physical strategy that really limited our scoring opportunities. We felt fortunate to come out of there with a 1-0 win. What if we had made a mistake in the back or an official missed an offsides and Woodmont had scored? They could have easily won and that has happened across the state to plenty of quality teams.

I guess what I am saying is it that soccer has gotten better across the board and only the truly elite teams seem to be immune to bad losses.

Two excellent posts...

If we have debates about rankings of teams that we can access anywhere and watch any of their games, then imagine the debates we can have about SC HS soccer teams (especially when we don't have as much access to stats, let alone videos, of all these teams).


I don't mind the rankings much. It's gotta be pretty hard to figure out just by teams & stuff who is where as far as rankings (unless the rankings committee is able to watch every single HS team play). I think a big factor is the "strength of schedule" in trying to get as good a ranking as one can with the limited data available. At the end of the day though, the field will ultimately decide who is the best (and even that can be debated because of so many factors that go into a game as CJ has already pointed out). I appreciate the folks who take time out of their lives to try & get these rankings out. It's not easy

Two great posts indeed and something we probably all scratch our heads at sometimes. I'm sure there is a system to it, there has to be some kind of formula. Perhaps as closely guarded a secret as McDonalds special sauce !

As a coach, I find that rankings can be more of a distraction at times. It certainly keeps you in everyone's target sights and more difficult to fly under the radar so to speak. However, I see their benefit and players certainly enjoy the recognition. The competitive nature of sport in general will always necessitate the need for rankings. Here's a cautionary tale trying to read too much into them. While soccerfan21 is correct that Socastee deservedly beat Clover 2-0, this was a preseason consolation game where both coaches agreed to experiment and run in players who deservedly needed playing time. Is that a true reflection of those programs? We also were the only team to beat Nation Ford (and both times) in our region with our last meeting being the region decider. Yet they remain 5th and we 8th. You also brought up a great point about Wade Hampton whom we face in the 1st round. Not in the rankings but have very recently beaten the #11 Mauldin and #12 Dorman teams in region play while losing to #1 in region JL Mann (#4 state) in OT ??

No doubt looking forward to the match but talk about playing a team running hot !

That's the beauty of the game though. We don't play it on paper. An obvious statement to make but also goes to show that many teams are capable of upsetting the "so called" rankings and winning on any given day.

To the point made that region III might not have a good reputation ; I would have to add that while region III was not particularly impressive playoff wise last year, it has a strong tradition with Nation Ford in Upper State final in 2013 and NW being a dominant state force before that for years. Every school in region III has either brand new 1st year or recently added new Head coaches (myself in 2nd year for example) except coach Wren at Northwestern. All in region III certainly hope to do ourselves justice this year in the playoffs and while rankings might make for an interesting read, I think we can all toss them in the trashcan come Tuesday. One and done !

With that said, the top 4 in AAAA have certainly shown consistency and quality throughout the season. If I was to put any confidence in the current ranking system, those 4 seem to be fairly placed.

My reply to some of your points soccerfan21 was in agreement over the rankings formula and just adding some caveats to the points specifically mentioning our program. No offence at all taken or given, just giving a perspective to your obviously valid observations.

Good luck to all teams in all regions. As someone on this forum used to say a while back.....

'Tis the most wonderful time.....of the year !!

Was that quote from Hurst? I miss that guy.

Yes sir. I believe it was !!

The purpose of my post was to bring awareness to flaws in the system. I have no intention to bad mouth any teams. I realize that coaches do not worry about the rankings when they are preparing their teams for the next game. I also agree that the players enjoy seeing the rankings. But I also believe that the rankings are not irrelevant. I am not sure but I would imagine that the people who are ranking the teams, use the rankings to determine North/South, Clash the Carolinas, and All-State selections. No offense to you or your team coach, but TL Hanna just jumped from #15 to #8 after beating three teams with losing records. Dorman was #12 and moved up to #11 after losing to Wade Hampton. How does that work? Coach, I also believe that your playoff opponent was selected by people that referred to these rankings. I saw you mentioned that it was down to Byrnes and Westside. What made Westside better than Byrnes? I have seen both of these teams play and I believe the better team was not chosen to fill the playoff postion. (No offense to Westside) They must have gone off the fact the Westside beat a ranked team, your team, TL Hanna.

My point is that the rankings are not perfect. I understand that it is a difficult process for someone to rank teams. But if it can't be done correctly, then why do it? To say that they have no meaning is just wrong. Out of the 36 seniors on the North-South rosters, 30 of them play for a team that is currently ranked right now. I agree that the best players would come from the best teams, but we are only calling these teams the best teams because someone ranked them.

At this point it would be easier for me to just not respond to someone that only posts at the end of seasons to complain of the system we have. Yes, I looked at your previous posts. I am not sure of your agenda but for most of us that coach in this state we want to promote soccer in general and the rankings are a way of generating interest and serve as a conversation piece...nothing more. The reason that most of the players that are honored at the end of each season are from ranked teams is because in general the ranked teams go farther in the playoffs. I really do not know how the rankings are done and I do not care. However, I am intelligent enough to know that we probably jumped to 8th because we are one of EIGHT #1 seeds and I am the least of those seeds.

NSCAA CRITERIA
*** 75% winning mark or higher as mandated by the NSCAA for Regional and National Rankings (positions 1-5)
*** Winning percentage vs. ranked teams per Classification
*** Head-to-head
*** Strength of schedule
*** Postseason advancement
*** Regular season and tournament results
*** Overall record
*** Region finish

If anyone is so inclined to do so at this time, please "rank" the Girls teams - Class 4A/3A have been done this weekend. Otherwise, a "strength of schedule" formula is used during the regular season along with determining factors of tournaments (personnel available) and other varying factors. Throw in region standings, tourney competitions, etc., and the past has proven that the rankings pretty much play out as advertised.

Believe me, it is a thankless job, but if it is not done then prep soccer becomes an afterthought for the media - if you ever have any "input" then please share! I encourage all coaches to submit a region or local "poll" on a weekly basis!

Again, I am not trying to offend anyone here. As a coach from a team that benefits from the system, you feel that I am complaining. I feel that I am criticizing the system because I believe that it needs to be changed. I want the rankings to promote the teams in the state. You do not have a problem because the current rankings promote YOUR team. I believe that the system is very political. I wanted to know how rankings were actually done. If all I wrote was: "How are the rankings done?" Nobody would respond to the post. I had to mention several situations that I believe did not make sense. Many players on weaker teams are over looked and a lot of players on good teams are over rated. I played high school soccer is SC. I also went on to play Division 1 college soccer. For the past 4 years I have helped a few high school coaches. I speak for the players and the teams that do not get the recognition that they deserve.

Let me "complain" one more time. You have claimed that you are intelligent and the reason that you are the #8 team in the state is because you are the 8th #1 seed. With that logic, teams 9-16 would all be the #2 teams in each region. I am not the smartest person in the world, but I do not think that ranking system would work. Not to mention that #2 Riverbluff and #4 Irmo play in the same region.

Perfect Kyle. Thanks for sharing the criteria. Makes much more sense now. Didn't know it was you and whomever "locally" who was maintaining the rankings. My assumption (wrongly it appears) was it was just some automatic formula from a distant website.

If you need info / polls next season moving fwds, myself and other coaches from the York County schools now in place (at least on the boys side whom I can speak for), will provide updates on a more regular basis to help the process. Pretty ambivalent to rankings in general but they are necessary and glad to help.

I wasn't complaining at the rankings system, just highlighting some of the observations made by OP in more detail and I hope it didn't come across that way. If it did, my sincere apologies.

I certainly appreciate the opportunity that this forum and scsoccer in general provides to keep abreast of all that is HS Soccer.

Cheers !

Graham Stafford
Clover

I have seen rankings in any sport on any level that make sense. The NCAA, a billion dollar industry, can't even get it right. If football and basketball teams that have every game televised.

I have no problem with the polls and the way they are done. If we aren't listed, we use that as motivation to work harder and if we are listed then we use that as motivation to stay there.

In the words of House of Pain "The cream of the crop rise to the top" I'll stop there because I like bacon....a lot!

well said

I will say this ... The more discussion on the message board about the quality of teams, players, regions, areas, etc. assists greatly in accurately forming the rankings. Also, teams that strive to upgrade their schedule by playing top teams in their area, via tourneys, or across the state help in validating their positions.

For example, too many times, we'll have a team at 14-1, but has played virtually no one of merit, while another team will be 9-6, but has played a very competitive schedule and tested themselves against top competition. This particular team has worked to market themselves for ranking consideration by playing tough opponents, rather than simply schedule for wins.

FWIW.

I agree whole-heartedly. I wish more coaches gave game summaries and stats with their score reporting. I enjoy reading them and yes it helps N/S and All-star committees make more informed decisions.

Ya know, I hadn't thought about this. From now on I'll post a small summary of our games in the report score threads........we also put all our players stats on MaxPreps as well.

Interesting to note that I have analyzed the Quarterfinals and the teams left in the Final Rankings from the Regular Season. For all of the hullabaloo it seems the Rankings are pretty accurate:

AAAA Boys
#6 Blythewood - #10 Mauldin
#3 JL Mann - #12 Dutch Fork
#2 River Bluff - #7 Socastee
#1 Wando - #4 Irmo
(4 of Top 5 / 7 of Top 10)

AAAA Girls
#1 Dutch Fork - #5 Dorman
#2 JL Mann - #9 Blythewood
#3 Lexington - Summerville
#4 Wando - #10 River Bluff
(5 of Top 5 / 7 of Top 10)

AAA Boys
#7 Chapin - #14 Berea
#1 Eastside - #9 AC Flora
#10 Aiken - #5 Hilton Head Island OR #6 St. James
#2 Brookland-Cayce - #3 Myrtle Beach
(4 of Top 5 / 8 of Top 10)

AAA Girls
#2 Dreher - #5 Seneca
#1 Eastside - #3 Chapin
#4 Hilton Head Island - North Myrtle Beach
#7 Brookland-Cayce - #6 Myrtle Beach
(5 of Top 5 / 7 of Top 10)

AA Boys
#4 Indian Land - #9 Pendleton
#5 Saluda - #6 Mid-Carolina
#1 Academic Magnet OR Woodland - #8 Wade Hampton (H)
#2 Bishop England - #3 Waccamaw
(5 of Top 5 / 8 of Top 10)

AA/A Girls
#1-1A Christ Church - #4-2A Woodruff
#3-2A Indian Land - #2-1A St. Joseph's
#1-2A Academic Magnet - #5-1A Governor's School
#2-2A Bishop England - #5-2A Waccamaw
(5 of Top 5 2A, 3 of Top 5 1A)

A Boys
#1 St. Joseph's - #4 Dixie
#2 Christ Church - #3 Brashier Middle College
#6 Governor's School - Charleston Charter
#7 Calhoun County - #9 St. John's
(4 of Top 5 / 7 of Top 10)