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#176541 - 05/06/19 04:35 PM Re: Pre-formed brackets in 3a, 4a and 5a [Re: MannSoccer]
Snicklefritz Offline
Goal Kick

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 128
The exact reason that EVERYONE should get in, seed everyone, top seeds get a bye, 2 games a week.
There are always ways to improve a schedule. Pre-season/in-season tournaments and high level non-region opponents. Even if a school has 14 region games, if you play 2 very strong non-region games and 2 strong tournaments you will have a good strength of schedule. It would encourage some great teams to play the best schedule available instead of putting wins on the schedule.
Upper/lower state finals should be at a neutral site. Basketball already does this, why not soccer????

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#176542 - 05/06/19 06:34 PM Re: Pre-formed brackets in 3a, 4a and 5a [Re: guardrail22]
CloverSoccer Offline

Throw In

Registered: 09/04/13
Posts: 80
Let me take a moment to apologize publicly to both Blythewood and Spring Valley. My earlier post reading it back could have come across as perhaps a little insensitive when stating our lower region seeds overturned the higher seeds in that region. I saw coach Whiting on Sunday and he is a classy guy so again coach, my apologies .


My dog in this fight is just to tweak the process so that the kids control their own destiny. Shoot, id even take a game of Rock Paper Scissors over the dreaded "H". My game is strong and we'd be hosting wink

Head to head seems to be the first tiebreaker in any tournament etc. That would be my first way to break the host tie and yes, lets the best teams in the playoffs.

I have been somewhat attracted to the full seeding process over regions the more I think about it.

Coach Heise made good points putting "teeth" into the argument and my AD said that getting the coaches association on board is the way to go and then get AD approval.

Again, we also HAVE to get the playoff schedule extended. The game of Soccer needs just as much rest as Football but I can handle two a week. Sat, Weds, Sat etc. Playoff games go to PK's at this stage frequently and you gotta slog through an additional 30 mins just to get there. Teams in deeper runs are playing ANOTHER whole game or two on top even with how condensed the structure is at this point. Its crazy, its unsafe, its a recipe for disaster, its overtraining and feels like it hasn't been thought through with the kids best interests at heart. Very difficult to prepare your team also for a new opponent, formation, individual matchups. All seems so rushed.

Besides, we always get weather as this point also as the humidity rises and the storms begin to roll in. Nothing built in to make it fair to these kids who have slogged it out for 6 months since preparing for the season when we start back in December.

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#176543 - 05/06/19 06:43 PM Re: Pre-formed brackets in 3a, 4a and 5a [Re: guardrail22]
SharksFutbol Online   content
Brace

Registered: 05/05/06
Posts: 733
Loc: Bluffton, SC
Perfect weather example:

Our Saturday game was set to kickoff @ 1pm. We officially kicked off @ 3:15pm. Game officially ended at 6:21pm. We both were adamant on getting the game fully played Saturday because there was no way eitehr team can play a game Monday night & turn around and play a Lower State final the next day. Surely, for player safety, the HSL wouldn't mind extending the game a day in case of weather or other circumstances that may prevent a game getting played the originally scheduled date.

And to get back on topic here, there's enough in place that doing seeding over region works.
_________________________
Misael Garzon
May River HS Boys Varsity Head Coach
mgarzon1217@gmail.com

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#176549 - 05/07/19 04:39 PM Re: Pre-formed brackets in 3a, 4a and 5a [Re: guardrail22]
MannSoccer Offline
Bench

Registered: 05/05/19
Posts: 3
Regarding a couple of recent posts, I would point out that the boys do control their own situation. Win your region, and you are rewarded with a top seed. I am all for extending the playoffs to only have two games per week, b/c the effort is taxing on the players. Not to mention weather events always rear their ugly heads. Why play a regular season if everyone makes the playoffs? I would prefer we try to change the tournament rules, so they are more showcase events, playing only three games. These events would be true opportunities to step outside of your region to play different teams from other areas. The possibility of playing five games in three days is not appealing, even for deep teams.

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#176550 - 05/07/19 04:57 PM Re: Pre-formed brackets in 3a, 4a and 5a [Re: MannSoccer]
Snicklefritz Offline
Goal Kick

Registered: 05/21/08
Posts: 128
Dead on with showcases instead of tournaments.
Why play a regular season if everyone makes the playoffs? Well, how many #1 seeds have lost in the first round to opposing region's #4 in the past 10 years? If the #4 can beat a #1, seems logical that a #5 could beat a 2/3. Teams are sometimes left out because they are geographically in an area with stronger teams. No attempt to insult any #1 that lost this year or in the past. It doesn't hurt anyone to let every team into the playoffs. It adds a half round of games and the top seeds get the bye they earned through the regular season and only have to win 5 games instead of 6 to win a state title.

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#176564 - 05/08/19 02:45 PM Re: Pre-formed brackets in 3a, 4a and 5a [Re: Snicklefritz]
Kevin Heise Offline

World Cup

Registered: 12/24/01
Posts: 6068
Loc: Cayce
Submitted via email by another coach, but it raised some good points, so I have included in this thread:

What are you really trying to do?

Run an end of the year tournament where all participants have a fair chance to win?

Run an end of the year tournament based on what teams have accomplished during that season?

Run a tournament to recognize the best teams at that time?

Run an end of the year tournament that HIGHLIGHTS HIGH SCHOOL SOCCER & OFFERS MAXIMUM EXPOSURE/OPPORTUNITIES FOR SCHOOLS, PLAYERS & FANS

Some of you would say we are trying to do all of these, but how you set up the tournament will most likely favor one over the others.

The reality is collectively we all could probably come up with the 2-6 teams that actually have a legitimate shot to win in a given year AND the 4-10 teams that WILL ACTUALLY win over multiple years. The rest of the teams are just playing for the experience and to possibly be the "Cinderella Team" making it all the way to the Championship!

The discussion thread leads towards "seeding" and notes groups like the NCAA Basketball tournament. It also moves towards "downplaying" Region (league) results noting that they are just "geographical considerations". None of the comments adds all the elements into a "big picture". NCAA is a PROFIT driven tournament. It also utilizes NEUTRAL SITES featuring MULTIPLE GAMES for EXPOSURE and EXCITEMENT. If Regions are just for geography then lets play all games at midpoint neutral sites. NO, then follow the model for many major soccer tournaments and play a HOME & AWAY aggregate format >>>> TRAVEL DOES MATTER! What a difference when I coached at Hilton Head and traveled to Berkeley for a "Region Game" vs. coaching at West Ashley and making that trip!!!!

How does the state tournament actually run?

At this time we basically follow a "model" that is the easiest for the SCHSL to "oversee" BUT do as little as possible to actually run. This model is used for many sports and by MANY states (not just SC). The changes being proposed don't REALLY change that; they only HELP/SUPPORT/PROTECT those "FEW" schools that will probably be the dominant teams no matter what the format may be!!! It insures that the "Cinderella" team will NEVER gain an advantage over the "BETTER" team and in fact, will always have a "DISADVANTAGE" entering "The Tournament".

What can we do? ANY change will come down to convincing the Athletic Directors who in turn would have to convince the SCHSL to make meaningful changes. Why would an Athletic Director at "Last Place" Region Team "Whats-a-mattaU" High School care about protecting the top teams in some other region ???!!!!! In NCAA Basketball that is why there are two "Also Ran" tournaments in addition to the NCAA. That is why in NCAA football we continue to have end of the year "Bowl Games" even if teams are not selected for the championship spots! WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO OFFER FOR ALL THE SCHOOLS????

Another "thread" on the forum is highlighting the USL "Academy Tournament". Another attempt to "highlight" (group, take) the best players and send them in one direction. Anybody following the NCAA bribery scandal for NCAA basketball? For me it's all tied together. How does that affect high school soccer? If your goal is not to "highlight" high school soccer then you are merely riding the "down hill slide" to where soccer will no longer be needed in the high school athletic landscape!!! "ELITE CLUB SOCCER" is trying to replace "Club Soccer" .... high school soccer isn't even a variable in their equation for what soccer should be.

SO WHAT CAN WE DO?

Do nothing, leave it alone, don't draw any negative attention to soccer. The athletic directors already see soccer as an "inconvenience" and the sport WITH THE MOST EJECTIONS! (Let's try to explain that to them one more time !!!! )

Run tournament with only Regional Champions. Play home & away in the 1st round. Neutral site "knock-out" after that. (Want to get REALLY crazy ... at the same time run a simple "Challenge Cup" knock out format tournament for anyone else that wants to play in end of season competition and schools will allow them.)

Depending on size of the "classification" ... World Cup format tournament. In 5A ... 32 teams break down to groups of four (4) .... 4 group winners advance into quarters, semis, Final Championship. Spread tournament out over three (3) weeks (2 games per week). Group of four (4) round robin guarantees each team 3 games (great for that year that you can't win it, but want the experience for following season). Play group double headers (OFFICIALS WILL LOVE THIS, they only want to show up if they are getting two (2) paychecks anyhow!). Lower seed does not get to host; 2nd seed hosts 1st round, 3rd seed hosts 2nd round, 1st seed hosts 3rd set of games. NOTE: WE ACTUALLY RAN OUR "SECTIONAL" TOURNAMENT IN MY 1ST COACHING LIFE BEFORE STATE TOURNAMENT WAS IMPLEMENTED AND DICTATED THE FORMAT (LARGER STATE .... MANY, MANY MORE SCHOOLS.)

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#176602 - 05/11/19 01:26 PM Re: Pre-formed brackets in 3a, 4a and 5a [Re: guardrail22]
guardrail22 Offline
Corner Kick

Registered: 06/02/03
Posts: 301
Loc: NC NC
You play the regions to get all involved, but to make the payoffs you have to go beyond that and play tournament and out of region opponents to prove you deserve to be in the playoffs.

You seen the top 16 upper and lower state and play it off.

Need proof it works? 2A and 1A do it every year.

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#176626 - 05/13/19 12:40 PM Re: Pre-formed brackets in 3a, 4a and 5a [Re: guardrail22]
Kevin Heise Offline

World Cup

Registered: 12/24/01
Posts: 6068
Loc: Cayce
Addendum from the coach who previously supplied some thoughts on this matter:

Forgot one item in my previous email.

Simplest 1st step and a compromise to changing from Pre-determined slots to seeding:

keep regional allotments
seed 1st place regional finishers in seeded spots #1 - 4 (if
there are four regional winner spots)
then seed all 2nd place finishers #5 - 8, 3rd # 9-12, 4th - wild-card #13 - 16

Keeps integrity of what is already in place, but does allow for some "power" adjustment.

Does probably increase travel.

Almost any seeding criteria/priority will work.

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