SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Boys Varsity Soccer You make the call

There is quite a bit of discussion concerning the quality of referees. Here's a test for those of you who think you may be able to do a better job. Watch this video, and let us know what your initial call would have been after watching it once at full speed, and then what your call would have been after all of the slo-mo replays.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZrLnuMyDl3U

I have to admit that I changed my mind after seeing the replays.

What call was actually made on the field is described in a thread on the bigsoccer.com referee forum.

I liked that. Though my 'call' stayed the same throughout the video, it was cool to see it in slow-motion as well as full-speed.

It's true... with some calls there are no easy answers.

Thanks for the video and the test. So often the players actually have the better view of the play because they are in the mix. The refs, in general, do a pretty good job considering the speed of the game and the impredictability of direction changes. Best advice for players...keep your mouth shut and play. Try to imagine the integrity of play WITHOUT referees.

I'm not here to trash the quality of referee's, it's a hard job. It would be nice to have every game recorded and bad calls received resended but we know that's not always possible. High School rules differ from club and unjust red cards hurt students. My complaint is Varsity games with only two referee's. Calls are based on judgement because no one was in position to make a postive call and of course let's not listen to reason from other players because then it looks like you have no control over the game and the boys are making the call. We need to revisit the rules for school soccer. Who should really get red cards? Wando NOOO, West Ashley NOOOOO. And others that I have heard of but these two I witnessed. Maybe we need to form a committee of concerned parents who really value the quality of High School Soccer, not to judge the ref's but modifiy the rules to accomadate the game to deal with the few refs who are dedicated to the game.
My hat is off to the coaches who stand behind your players who have received these red cards unjustly the rules need to change.

gonzo,

"Try to imagine the integrity of play WITHOUT referees."

Way back when, I used to play competitive Ultimate (a really cool Frisbee game for those of you unfortunate enough to have never played). In the official rules of the game, there is a stipulation that there will NEVER be referees or officials. From weekend pickup games to the World Championships, the players call their own fouls. This tends to be very self-regulating, as abuses of the system are quickly dealt with by the players. Maybe it's part of the "hippie" culture associated with tossing a Frisbee around, but I've never seen real unsportsmanlike behavior during an Ultimate game.

Maybe more sports would benefit from not having referees, and letting players be responsible for the integrity of the game.

But then, who would the parents yell at?

Lurker,

Having played Ultimate Frisbee before, I will agree with you that having no referee works. But, we are talking about a frisbee game. In Ultimate Frisbee, you don't typically see many slide-tackles, intentionally kicking other players (i.e. Keepers), etc.


I think the quality of play would go down horribly without officials. It would be one, huge cascade effect because one player would become slightly more aggressive than the others. Then, another one wants to be more aggressive than THAT player. Pretty soon, it would be a game of fouls, not a game of soccer.

Officials do more than just call player-to-player fouls. What about offsides, illegal throw-in, calling who kicked the ball out? Players would be too biased towards themselves to be able to make a proper call unless the call was blatantly obvious. Even so, I don't think players would be able to fairly call a game.

So would I think some sports could benefit from no officials? Some sports, maybe but soccer is not one of them.

exactly

good example

Given the scenario in the video, what call do you think the players would have called? Do you really think that they had a better view than the referee?

Seriously, what was your initial call?

I instinctively pointed to the penalty spot, but upon further review, I could support a free kick for the attacker outside the penalty area, a free kick for the defender, or even no call.

Whatever call is made, I guarantee a lot of abuse for the poor ref.

i would have given the offense a free kick just outside the 18 from that angle.

Personally, I would have made the call in the favor of the defense. The white man, throwing his torso (hip-check) at the defender was my reasoning for it.

The defender appeared to be between the white player and the ball. So I saw the hip-check by the white made at the defender, not in any direct attempt to get the ball. Or at least that's how I saw it.

I would have given the defense the kick for that one.

now i see why refs have such hard time calling fouls, and why they let so much go. this is why there needs to be at least three refs at every game. every game i have played this year, there has only been two refs, and two refs cannot call a game well. there needs to be at least three!!!

In this game, there were 3 refs. The AR on the attacking side would have had almost the exact viewpoint as the camera, assuming he was keeping up with the play. The center ref was behind the play, through no real fault of his own. Had this been a two whistle system, which everyone complains about, one of the two refs would have been very close to the camera (right side of the field in the attacking end). He would have had the same view as the AR in a 3 man system, and probably a better view than the center ref. Do you honestly think it would have made a difference in this case?

Keep in mind, during most pre-game discussions, the center ref tells the ARs to call fouls in their quadrant, unless it is in the penalty area. Then the center ref wants to have the first opportunity to call it.

I know that I am less likely to raise my flag as an AR in this type of situation, letting the center ref make the hard call. I'm not afraid to make a hard call as a center, but in cases like this, which are all too frequent, I'm not sure I would have made the correct call.

The 3 man system is much, much better for offsides, throw-in directions, and goal kick vs. corner kick decisions. There is nothing inherently better about it for making foul calls. In fact, in some cases, having two refs with whistles is better than one, especially if the one is caught well behind the play. With a three man system, the center ref really needs to be fit, and willing to make the long, hard run to keep up with a play like this, all while maintaining proper positioning on a diagonal. How many high school refs fit that description?

If you are a player, think about this video the next time you disagree with a call. If you have a parent that routinely yells at refs, show him or her this video. If you or your parent were able to make a definitive and correct call in real time, get certified, buy a yellow striped jersey and some goofy black socks, and get out there. If you couldn't, cut us some slack.

Thanks.

People complain about having only 2 refs...I recall playing games with 1

Hard call, indeed...if I'm in camera-angle view of that situation, I'm calling in favor of blue. A little "bumping and banging" outside the penalty box when both players had an even shot at the ball is to be expected; while both players had arms extended from the body, neither seemed to get in a decisive push.

Inside the penalty box, blue had the definite angle on the ball; white throws his body (arm, hip and leg) across blue with no contact on the ball. Blue's act of riding white to the ground seemed more like an attempt to catch himself to keep from getting taken out than an attempt to intentionally take out white, and blue continued to try to play the ball throughout. Long story short, white threw himself in front of the freight train and got run over accordingly.

My call: No card, free kick for blue.

That said, center ref seemed to be standing pretty flat-footed at the beginning of the play, and I doubt he got into a good position to make the call by the time it developed. From his angle, it probably looked like a push from behind by blue...probably a free kick from outside the 18 since contact started outside the box, but possibly even a PK since the actual hands-on-back was inside the box.

Curious to hear what call was actually made in the game.

According to the person who posted this on the bigsoccer forum, "The ref on the field called a DFK for blue inside the PA, presumably for white's hip check/tripping of blue."

This looks like the correct call. Assuming you were the white team coach, standing on the touchline in your "technical area" at the midfield, what would your first reaction be? What would you expect to see on a website like this the following morning?

I am both a coach and a ref. My biggest fear is that I would have made the wrong call as a ref, and as a coach, I would have had an inappopriate response to a ref who did make the correct call. Dang, this is harder than it looks.

If that's the case, I agree with the official. I would have called a kick for blue, no cards involved.

If I were the white team's coach... well, my reaction would depend on a few different things. First, it would depend on how I saw the play occur. Everything looks different from different angles so that would affect my reaction.

Another thing that might affect my reaction to the call would be the player. If the white player was one prone to getting fouls called on them, I would agree with the referee more easily than if the player was one who had never come close to fouling, ever.

As for what I might find on the site when I got home... ha... probably another 'Officials are bad' threads. They're everywhere, you know.

lurker.. that was my initial call in real-time. but in slow mo it appears that blue extends his arm at white and white is "pushed" off the ball. whether or not that this is reaction to to arm extension is what made me wonder on the second look. but in the end i would probably have stuck with FK blue for the tripping at toward the end of the play..

good example and good video