SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Girls Varsity Soccer Soccer Refs

As an observer of girls' high school soccer for a number of years now, I have seen the quality of play greatly improve. However, at least to my estimation, it seems that the level of officiating has not kept pace with the level of play. I know that for basketball (and probably football) officials there are raters who sit in the stands and rate the officials in actual game situations for their quality of officiating; is this true for soccer officials as well? Particularly with the two officials system often used in high school play, I have seen officials make calls that could/do affect the outcome of the game from halfway across the field. I think that the players deserve better or am I just off track here?

As it has been for many years, it seems that only the Columbia area uses the two-man system. I know here in Charleston, only North Charleston High School chooses to use a two-man system b/c schools here have the choice to use a two or three-man system. I have heard that even they are going to a three-man system this year. I know when we go to play in the Greenville area, and when i was a player there, we always use the three-man system. When we go to play at Waccamaw in the Myrtle Beach area, there is always a three-man system.

I am not sure if it is a money issue or an AD decision or school choice, but it seems that only metro-Columbia schools and tournaments use a two-man system.

There is no doubt that the officials have not kept pace with the growth of the girls game. So many of the officials assigned to girls soccer matches are way overweight (to the fact that they stand for much of the match in one 10 yard radius) and many have limited knowledge of the game. I wish that the coaches could rate referees and have the best assigned to appropriate girls/boys games. The worst ones should have to do the JV games and learn the game or get in shape. The Viking Cup was evidence of this for at least three of the games that I watched.

My experience with the Viking Cup this past week-end was what prompted this post. However, it just brought back experiences from past seasons as well. I guess maybe I'm not imagining it after all.

To Mr. 202677,

How about you joining the ranks of soccer refs in the Columbia area and then maybe 1 less way overweight ref would need to ref? Always interested in how everyone watching matches know everything and the poor, blind ol', way overweight refs know little or nothing. Get out there and ref.

And to FMD20, how come people watching in the stands from much farther away than halfway across the field make even better calls than the refs on the field?

People if you don't like the reffing, then get certified and ref. As you seem to type, how difficult can it be to ref a simple high school soccer match when you know all the rules. Come on and get out there and let the poor, way over weight refs take it easier and only do JV matches.
It will be much appreciated.

Just so everyone else knows....WI and IL use the 2 man system until playoff time too. It isn't just the SC schools that use the 2 man system. I do think it is funny that so many people always complain every year about the quality of the referees. This gets old every year!

Maybe if "so many people always complain every year about the quality of the referees," there might be a reason and my comment about the quality of the officating not keeping up with the quality of play may have merit.

Getinthegame, exactly!

Here is one problem I see with the current Reffing ranks. No youth player wants to do it. So the question why doesn't a youth player that can keep up with the game want to do it? For the most part it is because of the abusive parents and coaches. I know many Refs that try and get their children to ref but they do one game and that is it for them. Maybe if parents and coaches start treating the refs with some respect and understanding then you will be able to get a larger pool of refs which allows a better selection. If you fire every ref that makes a bad call then who do you have left? Parents? Heck, when a game is short on side judges it is always a struggle to get some overweight parents out of their chair to run the sidelines.

I do not Ref so for the most part I keep my trap shut about calls. I might say something to a parent or my wife next to me, but I try to leave the Ref alone for the most part. And if they are young then I really try keep my trap shut. The only time I would like say something is the Ref that allows a game to get out of control and players are starting to get hurt because of over aggressive fouls. But even then it is up to the coach to discss it with the ref and pull his players if he thinks it has gotten out of control.

These are not highly paid REFs like the NFL, no wait everyone complains about them not being able to keep up with the game either....

The worst calls I have seen have been with two refs when the far side ref calls a foul across a field that has a good-size crown. You can't see the feet or the ball, but yet they make a call.

FMD20 you are right the players deserve better, but until we have the numbers in the referee ranks that will be impossible. In the Midlands area during just the last week there were over 125 games played. Many of those games were refereed for free. Refs were paid at the tournament games but pre-season games are freebies. There are just not enough refs to do 3 man crews in all the games in the Midlands. I wish there were it is very difficult to call offsides and view the action at the ball at the same time, and with the two man crew there are two corners of the field that you are forced to make calls from a very long distance away. In a perfect world it would be nice to be graded on our preformance and lower level refs be assigned lower level matches, but in the real world the refrees actually have other jobs and assignments go to who can actually get to the match at the assigned time.
I realize my limitations I am over 50 years old I cannot run with 18 year old boys any more, but until more people step up to the pitch you will have to make do with the fat ol blind guys who do this for the love of the game. There are very few out there doing this for the money.
So if you really care, next time there is a referee clinic in your area please go and get certified to referee. It will give you a completely new perspective on the game.

As a ref, a father of HS players, and a father of kids that ref, it should be mandatory that all parents and coaches ref a game before they comment. The refs do get assessed during games, and, in the majority, most do it for the love of the sport and to the best of their ability. There is a continual shortage of refs, so sign up and come aboard. And I agree with the earlier comment, the crap that my kids have put up when reffing, especially from parents who do not know all or any of the rules, or know what the refs have been instructed, is pretty harsh and out of line.

I agree with BoR, chapindad, and gitg. Parents should limit their comments to cheering on their teams in a positive manner. Complaining to the ref as a parent could have a negative impact on your team, I have seen it happen. I believe this parent problem could also be quelled if ref's (including young ones) would not take such abuse from parents. It is definitely a ref's perogative to ask a parent to leave a game for such offenses. I believ if it happened more often it would stop some loud mouth parents. I also agree that parents should attend a ref course to better understand the game that most have never played. The only problem is that we have the wrong audience on this site most of the comments I have seen are completly harmless compared to some of the rants I have heard on the field.

I have noticed that soccer ref’s seem to be more sensitive about comments from the crowd than refs from other sports. I wonder why that is? I have attended over a 100 high school basketball games, and I hear the crowd yelling and booing about a bad call all the time. The basketball refs ignore the crowd and continue to officiate the game the way they see fit. Never have I seen a parent threatened with being thrown out of a game for this type of behavior. However, if a coach or player gets out line than a technical foul is called.
On Saturday, some parents were making general comments among themselves about a bad call. They were not yelling or addressing the ref in any way. The sideline ref overheard some of the comments and threatened a parent with being kicked out. He took his attention from the game to get involved in conversation. I believe the soccer refs are officiating the game to the best of their abilities, but as a paid ref they should expect to hear a crowd express displeasure with calls some of the time.

Let me also express my gratitude to those willing to ref. THANK YOU – I know it is not easy.

Let me just say as a player at the highest level for many years and now as a Coach that it does not matter how good or bad a referee is, there is always going to be someone that is not happy or think they know more than the ref. Well I say to u go get certified and become a referee, if not shut up and watch the game!!!!!!

I imagine that if an official took time away from the game to address a parent/fan about their comments, chances are the "general comments" were a bit overboard. I can't imagine a ref halting play or confronting someone for stating "You know Bill, I believe the quality of game management is lacking in the center official's decisions tonight." More than likely a "You suck!" or "What are you doing!?!?!" Were the culprits. I wasn't there, but why address something that wasn't a big deal.

I don't believe that because it is tolerated in basketball, we should do the same in soccer. People speak up when they want their displeasure voiced. If you want to say your piece, find a different way to express it. Simple cheers and boos would suffice, but never a direct statement.

Refs can drastically affect the outcome of a game. A player trips over their feet in the box... a foul is called, a PK is scored, and the opponent wins the game 1-0. A ref must keep the game under control and keep the players safe. When players go cleats up on opposing players, the ref should be more strict with the calls he/she makes. However, as the level of play increases and the teams get better, a little elbow to the ribs, or a tiny push of the back shouldn't be called. It's not going to HURT anyone, it's just a display of the athlete's competitive nature. I am a player, and used to yell at refs any chance I got. I have matured, and have learned to keep my mouth shut. If a ref makes a terrible call... get over it and win the ball back. If the game is officiated by the worst ref you've ever seen... at half-time, walk into the locker room and scream at the top of your lungs but keep your mouth shut to the refs. Especially players... your yelling at refs encourages your parents to yell at refs not to mention you screw your team over by putting your team on his/her bad side. And how about the parents who scream "What kind of a call was that?" All some of these adults want is for all calls to be beneficial to their kid's team. Relax, and teach your child to overcome crappy calls and play better to make up for it. Parents should be an example to their children, and you yelling encourages them to yell, and vise versa. I'm not a ref, so I don't know the difficulty in making the right calls... but I do know that there are some absolutely horrible refs out there... but guess what... too bad, because the teams are BOTH stuck with that ref. Get over it, and play harder so that the terrible calls dont take you out of your game and keep you from winning.

Elbows to the ribs don't hurt?

Ah, I don't mean like jabbing your elbow in someone's ribs.. yes that definitely hurts i just mean a little bit of competitive pushing never hurts.. unless of course, it hurts.

I see

Referees in SC do not get evaluated in High School soccer. That only occurs, occasionally, in USSF. I agree that there should be more evaluation of referees because it can only help the game.

As for the 3-man crew, it is a money issue as well as a numbers (number of referees) issue. The ADs at the High Schools do not want to pay for 3 referees. I think the High School League should step in and do what they did before the 3-man crew became the norm in basketball. If it was a high level game or a really intense match (ie Dutch Fork/Irmo) they would assign a three man crew. They could do that for soccer starting next season. Not every game needs three referees, ie Dutch Fork/Lower Richland. If you want to help with the numbers issue be a referee. You can be part of the problem or part of the solution. Step up and be part of the solution.

Yes many referees need to develop a "deaf ear" when it comes to fans yelling. Yes coaches need to set the example for their players. One year when I was coaching U12 girls I had a parent that was terrible. He yelled about every thing the referee did. The next match I brought him several Blow Pops to put in his mouth, he got the message.

Go get certified. It will change your opinion.

I was certified as a ref 2 years ago and I ref'd a U-8 game by myself. One dad actually came up to me afterward and asked me why "kids are reffing my child's game" (I was only 16 at the time). I had just as much training as the 37 year old father of 2 that had sat next to me at the training session, yet I was being treated as if I was incapable of calling a game (which at the U-8 level doesnt even include offside rules).

I have full respect for any ref. I could barely handle a U-8 game for crying out loud.

I can't wait to hear the parent that calls bad calls for both teams. I always hear them yelling "Ref call that foul both ways". But that same parent doesn't yell at the Ref for missed calls both ways. Maybe something like "Ref that was an obvious foul by my daughter. You have to call that and give her a yellow card while your at it!"

We do get evaluated at HS games in York County, including scrimmage games. The assessor comes at random times. I was evaluated at three different HS games last year.

I think that SC could stand some referee assessments in high school soccer. In Illinois, the referees are assessed by each high school coach that they referee for. Then the referees that get to do all the reffing for the playoffs have to have the highest scores/most years/best knowledge of the rules/best test scores in order to do so. There is a scale that is used to determine who is qualified to ref the playoffs. That might be a good thing to use. Then again, it may not....

the referees that get the high level games don't really need to be evaluated for high school. When you look at reffing as a "sport." High school isn't competitive. Referees however work hard to earn spots at state cup and regionals, and only the best referees are invited to those as well as high level club tournaments. There are also ranking systems to "move up the totem pole." For high school, however. All the games at the Lake Murray challenge recieved proportional referees for the match. All of the ones there were refs that I remember looking up to when reffing club ball, and all of them were up on the totem pole at least one notch. I don't know about the Viking cup, but I do know that if the reffing wasn't up to par at the LMC, it wasn't because the refs weren't good enough. Maybe, like irmo, some of them just had a bad day.

I have to say I agree with both sides of the argument. Parents should keep quiet and maybe learn the rules but I don't think it is too much to ask for the refs to know the rules as well. I could go on and on with examples but I don't really want to take the time. I found that particularly at the high school level, some referees were very ignorant of the rules. Also, it does not help that when the "older" refs who can't keep up with the game act as though they rule the world.

There is nothing wrong with fans being fans, but it has clearly crossed the line in recent history. Referees are paid to make judgement calls. First, judgement calls are not always easy to make. Second, judgement calls are easy to criticize. If you want to talk about bad referees, we had one ref at the Irmo JV tourney 2 years ago that sat on a cooler and refed part of the game. I asked him if he was okay and he said, "Yeah...been out here all day. Just tired." I was thinking that I thought that he got paid for refing and get off of his butt and do his job. You have to take the good with the bad when it comes to refing. At the same time, no one should be disrespected by being called an idiot or cursed at. There is no call for that. People will always criticize you. How we react to it reveals our character. That is part of sports...it reveals your character, not necessarily builds it.

All teams must be prepared to win with or without referee calls in their favor on any given night; referees are part of the game and always will be. Accept it and adjust.

The biggest responsibility entrusted to referees on the field is the safety of players. Four or five people can control the safety of a player during the game:

1) The player – s/he can come off the field if play is too aggressive (Not likely to happen)
2) The coach – s/he can remove a player from the field if the player is in danger (Not likely to happen)
3) The 2 or 3 referees – they can pay attention to aggressive play and control it from the beginning of the game so it doesn’t escalate, especially during emotional matches (Most probable option)

Therefore, I appeal to the referees out there to protect the safety of the players and don’t just assume an “ah, let them play” mentality. As a reminder, we are chatting on a message board about high school children, not professional athletes. Many emotional outbursts from parents stem from calls not made when their child is unfairly taken down. I have witnessed it from even the quietest and most self-controlled parents in the crowd.

Thank you to all ref's out there. I know of several young ref's that quit after their first game because of abusive parents. Maybe we should pay a ref to ref the parents.

Maybe we should just ban abusive fans. Why pay someone to monitor them? If they won't change, kick them out.

Amen.

At a scrimmage and last night in the season opener, refs called PKs and in both cases the refs were completely unable to see if the foul (questionable at best) was actually in the box—the first call came from the OTHER side of midfield, the second came from across the field with a crown that was huge. Also, club players are viewed as too "rough" by both the fans and the refs, marring the games tremendously. The 2-person system and the quality of refs in SC are BOTH inexcusable. Our players deserve much better.

Purpleandyellow, you are an idiot. Go get certified, and go out and ref, and then come back on here and blab about the quality of referees. I am sure that there are plenty of excellent referees, but you probably don't like the calls against your team. As a referee you are only going to make half of the people happy half of the time. As long as you ref the game to keep the kids safe, and you are not intrusive to the game itself drawing attention to yourself, that is all you can do.

Without the refs, you won't even get to play the game. Be appreciative that they are even there - especially with all the complaining that goes on in soccer. They're part of the game. Both teams have the same crew. Adjust and enjoy the game for what it is at the moment.

One and Only: I have to side with purpleandyellow about lousy calls with two refs across a field with a crown. With 3 refs, the ref stays more in the middle of the field. With 2 refs, both tend to hug the sidelines and can't see stuff in the middle. But does a ref really know a club player from just a HS player? I doubt it. Some refs call it close, others let them have contact. The players just need to know how close it's being called before cards are given (in most cases).

While I accept my own possible idiocy, I also would state that I see horrible calls against BOTH teams at ALL high school matches. Note that I protested the 2-man system first in my comment. MUCH could be improved by a 3-man system. That stated, SC has not caught up with the ref needs in terms of refs who have experience with high levels of soccer, such as premier league. The calls I noted were from refs who were clearly out of position; it was impossible to make those calls. Part of that was due to the system, and part was due to the out of shape refs who do not move. Ref-ing is a very hard job; I know that. But I am basing my comments on that many refs are excellent, making the poor refs who are never in position to make calls even more disturbing. Ref-ing high school is made even more difficult by the huge span of quality and experience among players and among refs who have never seen, apparently, a high level of soccer. As I stated before, THE PLAYERS DESERVE BETTER. I do not care about who wins the match.

Well, purpleandyellow, while you do make a valid point there are still a few things I don't really agree with.

"The Players Deserve Better" Yeah, there are some bad refs out there (like I said in my last post, it's inevitable) that make bad calls but I wouldn't go as far to say that the players deserve better. Refs call them as they see them. Do you honestly think, with all the hate they get from making 'bad' calls, that they really go out there and purposely make 'bad' calls? (Back to what you said about not caring who wins the match. Well, do you think the refs care about who wins enough to make bad calls repeatedly against one team over another?)


Just because you see a few refs that make bad calls doesn't mean they're all bad and it certainly doesn't mean the quality of the reffing has dropped any over the years. It's all a matter of relativity; ten years ago the sport may have involved less player-to-player contact, thus less calls made by refs and now, ten years later, the sport may involve more contact meaning more calls. That doesn't mean the refs have gotten any more strict or just starting making bad calls.

But that's simply my opinion. I think the ref's are out there trying to make the game a good, clean one for everyone. Nobody's perfect so when I see them make a call I don't like, I just let it go because nothing I can do will change the call.

Every comment has valid claims.

Bad calls - sure there will be bad calls, no one is perfect; and as always those on the field have a better view than those in the stands; and those on the field who aren't refs most likely aren't objective. Also, consider that the sport has grown tremendously in the last decade. New referees have been required which means there are many who don't yet have a lot of experience.

On the other side, I have seen very good players who have made mistakes, some times horrible mistakes, it happens. That doesn't mean they aren't making the effort or should be benched or be subjected to abuse by the fans, or referees.

I've been to club games and seen evaluators so I know they are out there. Most likely they will be at games with less experienced officials. One in particular provided detailed explanation for questions I had about rules and interpretation of play on the field. If you happen to stand around the officiating team after games you even hear them asking their peers how their performance went, asking about specific calls they made, or hadn't made. And surprise, if you are civil to them, they'll even talk to you about the game and explain how they saw the action and why they made a certain call.

Definitely each ref has his own style, which sometimes may, I don't know with any certainty, be directed by the center/head ref. I sat next to a friend at the state HS championships last year who happens to be a coach and a referee. With each team of referees for each game he would tell me the particular styles of the officials, whether they called everything or let them play, that sort of thing. He was right on with his familiarity of the officials.

I even gained a greater respect for them from another 'fan' sitting about 10 feet away. This man screamed at the referees the entire game, questioning and criticizing every call made, so much in fact that you had no idea what team he was supporting. When he started yelling at the players, well....I just hope I never get like that.

What is the difference in per-game cost between using a two-person referee system and a three-person referee system?

I've heard cost is an issue with the system—but I have also heard that SC simply doesn't have enough refs to go 3-man—I believe both are credible issues—

And while most of us have done it—No one should be yelling at the refs—The yelling can ONLY creates the worst situations—It never helps—

My understanding (from a referee) is that in the midstate (at least) the three-man system was voted against due to cost issues. I was just wondering how much more it actually costs.

Typcially if you do the three man system...here is how it breaks down for adult league games....

Lines: $24 or so X's 2
Center $45 or so


In high school, we usually got about $70 for a JV and a varsity game, that was 2 referees, so that is $140 for two games....You are going to pay a little more each time if you have 3 referees. Most likely, you won't have people running the lines for less than $25, so you would end up with about a $200 bill for 2 games, maybe a little less. But you figure even $40 more each game is going to cost you 8 home games or $320 for the year, not including tournaments. Not much, but more money for cash strapped school districts.

Question: For schools that use the 2 man system, do both refs receive "center" pay?

If so, then having 2 centers in lieu of a center and 2 assistants isn't saving a whole lot.

And assuming cost is the issue (and not availability), can't schools just charge an extra $1 a head to cover the added ref cost? I think most fans would support a price increase if it was going to pay for a 3 ref crew.

High school pays officials by attendance, not position. Generally $35-$50 a referee per game.

SCHSL Soccer Officials' Fees
$35, Regular Season
$38, State Playoff Games
$44, State Finals
Travel Allowance shall be $0.25 per mile to each official with a minimum of $5.

Page B-46 of the SCHSL Handbook's Rules Section

William Aiken, I never got paid by attendance #'s when I did a game in SC, it was always a flat fee. As you can see, I was pretty close to the numbers that were posted. In Illinois it is the same thing. We get paid per game, no matter what. But what is nice is the conference that I do a lot of the refereeing in uses 3 referees per game, not 2!

I think someone was mistaken on this board. In the Greenville area, a two-man system is used. I coached in the 90's and we used a two-man system and I was at the Hillcrest-Ridge View game today and the only had two refs.
Best line I have heard from a ref happened in last falls adult league. "they pay me to make A call. it doesn't have to be the right one."

The Two man system is used in the Upstate. The parents of some schools choose to get the extra money together when there is a big Game between rivals. ie.. Greenville -vs- JL Mann or Eastside - vs - Greenville and so on.

Why is the obvious "bad throw" and "handball" (whether inadvertent or intentional) largely ignored in high school soccer. Also, when the 3-man system is used, is it so hard to know when a player is offside? It seems that often that they are on, but the AR cannot keep up with the play.

Talon,

how about some basic reffing. Inadvertent "handball" probably should be ignored. Same for "bad throw". Do you know what a "bad throw" is? Or just that all of you experts up in the stands when they are not insulting refs are letting everyone know that "THEY" know that was a high kick, offsides, bad throw and should be a card.

That line about about getting paid to make calls is correct.

From the 2005-2006 NFHS Soccer Rules Book, Rule 12, Section 2 Handling, Art. 1:
"A player shall be penalized for deliberately handling, carrying, striking or propelling the ball with hand or arm."

Unless it is deliberate, it is not a handling foul.

The line about getting paid to make calls is indeed correct...I'd like to believe, though, that most referees aren't so indifferent about whether the calls they make are indeed the right ones. There is no other single person on the field who has as much individual influence on the outcome of a game as a referee, and I think it's a role most officials take seriously. Of course, referees are individuals, after all, and they tend to vary as any selection of individuals would.

That said, the type of officiating is just one of many uncontrollable variables that can affect any given game, just like the weather, injuries, illness, or your starting keeper taking a family trip to Colorado on a game night. One of the first things I try to teach my players is to keep their heads and play their best game no matter how the calls are coming (or not coming), and for heaven's sake, don't stop what you're doing and wait for what YOU think should be an obvious call.

Maybe one day soccer matches will be officiated by computerized cyber-officials who are all programmed to agree completely on when a player is offsides, when to call the foul or play advantage, and where the line is between going hard for the ball and "persistent infringement." (Those last two, I'll admit, are pet peeves of mine...) But until then, I actually appreciate shaking the hands of the officials before a game and knowing that, the vast majority of the time, there are human beings out there on the field who may not be any more perfect than the rest of us, but are doing their best to make sure everyone gets the fair shake they need to make the game worth playing. For all of you out there who fit that description, thanks...your efforts are appreciated.

Oh, and for those who were wondering, we do try to use the three-man system here; unfortunately, as some of you suspected, we often end up playing two-man games simply because there aren't enough officials to go around. So...any of you who are genuinely concerned for the purity of the game and have time to spend, by all means, take the class, suit up, and grab a whistle!

Thanks Coach; flying out Thursday morning


I have to agree... the officials on the field aren't perfect and won't always be able to make a perfect call. While refs can be an influence on the outcome of a given game, we can't exactly 'control' them so you've just got to live with that fact.

Refs can and will make mistakes but I don't think they are out there deliberately trying to sway a game one way or another. It's not about bad officiating or under-qualified officials (though I won't say there isn’t a handful of those out there) but about basic human nature -People make mistakes. Refs can only make half the people happy, half the time. We can't just decide that the officiating is getting worse and worse every time we see a bad call.