SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Girls Varsity Soccer Question about rankings for 2A

How are schools ranked? I noticed that Emerald is still ranked 4 after defeating Myrtle Beach (3A ranked 4) and AC Flora (3A ranked 7) this weekend. (Both games were won in PKs). Academic Magnet lost to Myrtle Breach 0-3 and Waccamaw also lost to Myrtle Beach 1-2. These 2A schools are ranked 3 and 2. I was just wondering why Emerald might not be ranked higher at this point?

the rankings from week to week are obviously done ignoring any consistent concept of logic or fairness. in the 3a, greenville girls dropped from 3 to 8 from last week to this and never lost a game during the week ( winning both by some average # of 7-8 goals ). at the end of the day, the rankings are meaningless since they have no application to seedings etc, but the fun of viewing week to week rankings will leave one perplexed

Emerald should be sourcing their 0-0 Viking Cup match with Top 10 4A Hilton Head. Although they lost on PK's, this was one of their best results.

Hurst66
Good point. Bishop England who is ranked #1 in 2A lost to Hilton Head in a scrimmage 0-2.

Does anyone know who ranks the teams and what it is based on?

Please consider that the ranking DOES impact seeding in AA! Unlike the other classifications. It is far too important and far too inconsistent since that is the case. In AAAA and AAA, the rankings are merely intersting. In AA/A it determines the seedings and can make a HUGE impact on who you play. Last season the final "opinions" about Woodruff, Emerald, and Christ CHurch determined which two had to play each other to get to the third for upper state. THAT is a huge issue—and one that is not handled very well from year to year. Too often ranking is influenced by the taditional view of a school and not the quality of play that particular year. Some elite schools have received favorable rankings year in and out regardless of who is on the field.

my apologies regarding the lack of application in 2a as i live only in the 3a world, but my comments remain applicable. seems to us the midlands teams receive an overdose of credit in the rankings. in sum, i would love to have someone tell us how they are done ( i know how they are done in football, basketball and baseball , but have concluded the soccer rankings have an unorthodox bent to them )

I understand that most in AAA and AAAA aren't aware of the impact of rankings on AA/A—no problem. There is a group of coaches (and others?) who do this ranking—the Soccer Coaches Assoc? But they have to go by stats, etc—I doubt that these coaches can see many matches 9other than their own). Thus the tendency to go by tradition and word of mouth. Thus they are unbalanced.

This has been brought up before. Now, you can stand alone by offering a reasonable solution that all can agree on. Proceed.

I don't mind this question -- I would ask too! This is addressed every year it seems, so here you go!

How the rankings are derived!

Kyle Heise
Thanks for the information. Would you minding sharing with us why Emerald and Woodruff are ranked 4 and 5 in 2A?

I started the girls program at Woodruff and have watched the rankings in AA/A in girls and boys soccer closely for many years. There is a program bias for BE and CC. I don't mean that negatively; just a fact. The programs have done well over years. I believe there is also a lower state bias in AA/A because of BE's dominance. The Woodruff's and Emerald's have had more recent success—especially with Chapin moving up. Since few of those voting ever see the teams or know the circumstances of the matches (Why do Woodruff and Emerald hold their own with some larger schools and not others from year to year?, for example), those biases impact rankings because rankings are humans making value judgments. That is the essential flaw with ranking v. the set format of AAA and AAAA (which has its flaws since some regions are much stronger than others). I have always disliked the rankings but I am biased and support a team that has not received the respect historically that I think they have earned. I hear the same from Emerald and empathize.

I stated that the bias is based on historical evidence—as you quoted. And that is the problem with ranking. Last year's team is never this year's. The preference given to lower state over upper is not really very important. Who each team has to play in the upper or lower brackets does matter. And as long as that is determined by ranking (which is subjective) people will feel cheated. I am not suggesting those who rank are not trying to be as fair as possible, however. Two years in a row Woodruff had to play Chapin (losing in overtime) and Emerald (losing after a serious injury to a key player) in order to get to CC in the upper state. Does CC get the easier road to the upper state due to tradition (instead of quality of the current team)? Maybe and maybe not. But it can seem that way as long as this is ranking instead of by region success as in AAAA and AAA. Many (rightly so) feel BE and CC already have unfair advantages being private; the ranking issue adds fuel to that fire. So feathers are ruffled.

SCHSSCA Rankings Formula

quote:

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Maybe and maybe not. But it can seem that way as long as this is ranking instead of by region success as in AAAA and AAA.

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My suggestion is for you, 2A/1A Coaches, ADs, and Principals to get that passed for your classification!

Excellent suggestion, Kyle! That would bring balance to all classifications and remove any charges of lack of fairness. It could be undoable due to lack of girls teams within regions and the combo of AA/A, but it would remove the subjectivity issue.

"That is what history dictates"?—I don't see a spot for "history" in the formula for ranking, by the way. And that is the rub. Last season Spartan High hammered Woodruff 9-0, and Boiling Springs defeated Woodruff easily. This season, Spartan High and Woodruff were 2-2 with 6 mins remaining in a scrimmage (ending 4-2 SHS), and Woodruff defeated BSHS 7-1. Why? Spartan High, BSHS, and Woodruff are NOT the same teams this year as last because history doesn't get to suit up and play. Ranking should be on the now and not on what we expect from teams based on the past. Just an idea.

2005
Last season Spartan High hammered Woodruff 9-0, and Boiling Springs defeated Woodruff easily.

2006
This season, Spartan High and Woodruff were 2-2 with 6 mins remaining in a scrimmage -- scrimmages DO NOT COUNT (ending 4-2 SHS), and Woodruff defeated BSHS 7-1 (good win for the Lady Wolverines - a lot of season left). Why? Spartan High, BSHS, and Woodruff are NOT the same teams this year as last because history doesn't get to suit up and play.

Believe me, by the end of the season (not the first 1/3) the teams will be ranked where they need to be based on their production up until that point.

As a former coach, as the name suggests, it was always apparent to me that to win you had to beat everyone you played, including the best. Personally, I never wanted my team to be ranked, because the "hype" always seems to seep into the players psyche. I understand the AA/A situation for seeding purposes, but there is a situation where the "historically best" teams in AAA Upstate (Riverside and Eastside - and yes this is changing somewhat of late with other teams challenging for that "title") ended up playing each other as early as the second round of the playoffs. Many arguments were made on this message board then as they probably still are about the inequality with regards to the playoff system in AAA. I am not knocking anyone's case here. Just stating the idea I have always had that to be the best, you have to beat everyone along the way. As a coach, I liked the humility that a loss or two brought me and my players during the season. It's motivation for showing everyone who's the best in the end. I know Coach Dodd and it's not improbable that he will use the rankings as a great motivator. That's what I would do anyway. Again, not trying to ruffle any feathers. I hope the rest of the season is as wonderful for Emerald and Woodruff as the first half has been.

Kyle's last point needs to be noted and re-emphasized. Just as with NCAA basketball, by the final ranking and the tournament, things are as fair as they can be. If all the teams could be assured of chances to play against each other, then that becomes even more accurate. Let's recall that AA/A used to be with AAA in the playoffs—so while some may complain, I have to say it is good to have THIS to complain about. Girls soccer in SC continues to grow and evolve. That always includes some growing pains. And "formerhscoach" is right as all coaches know—you gotta win no matter who you step on the field to play.

kyle, thx for link to criteria used. they make sense. my curiosity wasnt as much what are the criteria, but how does one create such fluidity when, for example, from last week to this week greenviile high goes from 3 to 8 and doesnt lose a game ( two wins 9-0;8-0 )yet is passed by teams w/ more losses that even lost the prior week ( eg acflora ) and others that had non significant wins ( dreher goes from 8 to 5 w/ 2 wins over lesser competition and greenville goes from 3 to 8 w/ 2 wins over lesser as well ). again, i'll restate it doesnt matter at the end of the day, but such week to week migration of teams in light of the above tells me there is way too much subjective use of objective criteria. how can greenville be 8th w/ one loss to #1 3a riverside, one loss to #1 4a mauldin, and one to a school from ga under the criteia you state--as compared to those schools ranked above them.

Foreversoccer.com is trying a new method with the polls. It will have it's flaws as well, but will be based more on the fan's input. The drawback of this method would be that lesser known schools without posters wouldn't get as many supportive post irgo higher rankings. Go to the site, find the forum for polls, and state your top ten.

"An incomplete schedule by EHS doesn't help matters, especially when little cooperation was given last year by the Vikings. I'd suggest a full schedule be submitted and complete scores/results sent in weekly!"

Do you lose a few spots for not turning in a full schedule? If it means that they get a little respect in the rankings, then I'll send it to you. I don't feel like the fact that Emerald didn't turn in a complete schedule last season should affect their ranking this year. It seems a bit childish IMO. They tied in regulation and defeated in PKs a team that Waccamaw and Magnet lost to. Not to mention they tied in regulation with Hilton Head and have beaten 4A Greenwood twice and TL Hanna once. They have played two schools not larger than 2A, one of which is Christ Church, defending upper state champs, and they defeated them....

"There probably is a 'bias' for the 2A/1A girls soccer polls and justifiably so, because year-in and year-out Bishop England and Christ Church have been the "teams to beat" in the Lower State and Upper State . Throw in the likes of Chapin (at the time) and Hanahan and those were the teams to judge 2A/1A teams by.

No offense to Emerald or Woodruff, but to be the best -- you have to beat the best and until that is proven over the course of a season (or two), then that is what history dictates."

They beat one of the two "teams to beat" right?


"Believe me, by the end of the season (not the first 1/3) the teams will be ranked where they need to be based on their production up until that point."

With Waccamaw likely not losing to any of the remaining teams on their schedule, I doubt there is anything that Emerald can do to move ahead of them in the rankings. The 3 teams' only common opponent has been played already, and has obviously gone unnoticed. They have the advantage in head to head with common opponents, regular season win/loss, and combined win/loss records of opponents. I'm sure that continuing this trend will do nothing to change their ranking. I suppose all there is to do now is turn in a complete schedule and we're in the top 2.

I would strongly suggest Emerald HS girls varsity to submit their schedule to kyle@scsoccer.com and to fill in any missing scores. Thanks!

Kyle,

Can anyone submit this, or do you require it to be a coach?

As long as it is correct, I don't care who sends the information. Preferably, a coach or team manager would take care of this chore. Thanks!