SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Club Soccer & ODP SC Region / Club Superiority

Swimmer. There is a board in place at both Giles and GFC. One question I have about the structure of Mt. Pleasant is the DOC. How much time does Lundy have to put in to the program? I know he is very busy with the college and his camps. Is there anyone else in place there? Also, isn't MPSC governed over by the Rec. Department in Mt. Pleasant and if so how does that work?

The population argument I think is pretty lame. It is utterly pointless to include Sumter and Newberry as a source of players for Columbia. Newberry does not have one classic team and Sumter has 1 boys and 1 girls team. The same goes for Georgetown, Berkley, Pickens, and Anderson. The earlier post was right on about demographics- you can forget about the population in rural areas of counties adding to a pool of players. The population of Charleston in 2002 was 98,785. Greenville was 56,181. Mt. Pleasant was 53,096, Spartanburg 39,068.

That was a weak take.

4soccer: What a great post. I’ve never read a post that has so much with which I disagree and at the same time so much with which I agree. Let’s start with the disagreement – that’s usually more fun. After hearing for years how much facilities matter, I absolutely don’t believe it any more. I can give you two anecdotal reasons for this – the best facilities in the state are arguably Lexington’s soccer complex – and Lexington is for the most part a bleak and balkanized collection of four (4!) clubs of which the “classic” clubs continue scrabbling toward mediocrity. GFC’s facilities are not at all impressive – and yet they continue to produce outstanding teams.

I think it’s great that CSC is building more fields, lighting them, paving, and the like. But that’s icing on the cake. CSC is the best hope for Columbia area soccer because it merged with CFC and now has by far the best coaching staff in the area – people like Savitz, Fredericks, Crosby, and so on. You could have stone fields and great coaches and you’d still draw players.

I hope the folks at CSC (and I’m not affiliated with CSC in any way – I’m just someone who would like to see SC not be ranked #40 out of #50 or so in terms of US soccer) make sure to spend more money and time recruiting more great coaches rather than focus solely (or even primarily) on facility improvements. Because what CSC needs the most right now is depth – the ability to field more than a few teams capable of winning state championships – rather than the ability to field just a handful of very good teams. And from my experience, players are drawn to coaches/teams – not to facilities.

I love these arguments oriented around demographics – I think that there is a lot of interesting conjecture being posted. Okay – let’s talk about population demographics. If we take a look at counties where there are major population centers, the “big three” are of course Greenville, Columbia, and Charleston. Here’s a first cut at some demographic data for these and also take the highest populations and densities in counties that are close to these metropolitan areas that might represent populations from which to draw:

Greenville:
Greenville County: 380K people, 479.3 people/square mile (SC, rank#1)
Spartanburg County: 254K people, 312.9 people/square mile (SC, rank #4)

Columbia:
Richland County: 321K people, 423.9 people/square mile (SC, rank #2)
Lexington County: 216K people, 308.2 people/square mile (SC, rank #5)

Charleston:
Charleston County: 310K people, 337.9 people/square mile (SC, rank #3)
Dorchester County: 96K people, 167.7 people/square mile (SC, rank #11)

Okay – someone brought up brought up education and financials. These tend to be rather strongly linked. Here’s some financial information for these counties in terms of median family income and SC county ranking:

Greenville County: $50K/family (SC, rank #4)
Spartanburg County: $45K/family (SC, rank #9)

Richland County: $50K/family (SC, rank #6)
Lexington County: $53K/family (SC, rank #2)

Charleston County: $47K/family (SC, rank #7)
Dorchester County: $50K/family (SC, rank #5)

Note: I didn’t include Beaufort County in with Charleston to try to keep this simpler – but it’s probably worth noting that Beaufort County is ranked #1 with a median family income of $52K/family.

But what about the target population, people younger than 18? Here’s how these areas stack up with each other:

Greenville County: 93K, 118 people/square mile
Spartanburg County, 63K, 78 people/square mile

Richland County: 78K, 103 people/square mile
Lexington County: 56K, 80 people/square mile

Charleston County: 74K, 80 people/square mile
Dorchester County: 28K, 48 people/square mile

So, what are my opinions based on this data? First, the financial argument doesn’t really hold – despite most people’s perception, the Charleston area has a higher median family income than most of the state and the Columbia area has a higher median family income than the Greenville area (of course, you can go to a higher level of granularity and look at all sorts of trends here). Second, in terms of population and density, a case can be made that the Charleston area has fewer players under 18 from which to draw than the midstate on both an absolute and a square mile basis – even when you abandon looking at regions and you just look at dominant counties contributing to a metropolitan area (note: my simplified numbers using only two contributing counties still shows a roughly 1.5X overall population difference and a roughly 1.5X density difference and thus agree with LPAF's broader population analysis). The Columbia and Greenville areas are very close.

Does this then mean that it comes strictly down to population draw? I honestly don’t think so. If it did, then the Columbia area would have many more state championships. I think the Charleston area, for example, could be a regional and national force if a single club made the investment in coaches. But that’s just my opinion. What these demographics don’t show is that the 16-18 players who constitute a top team in any club are difficult to define in any median or average way – these 16-18 players are by their nature unusual if they are among the best. So I think that what is paramount once you get to some critical threshold (which I’m guessing that Charleston, Columbia, and Greenville has) is the club and the coaches of that club. But then again, that’s just my opinion.

Excellent work again Mark. I think you are dead on. In the final analysis, it does come down to club organization and coaches.

You gotta be a statistician

Great post Mark....I have to agree with those that said coaching and not facilities are the reason for successful clubs. Just look at Summerville....Clark Brisson was brought on 3 years ago and the coaching staff he's assembled has proven successes....the U11, U13, and U14 boys teams are all very competitive and will certainly be top teams at cup time. The 13's and 14's are drawing players from all over the state including Myrtle Beach. They are competing in top tournaments (Jefferson Cup, Germantown Invitational, CASL, Virginia Beach Columbus Cup)against teams that can draw up to 300 kids for tryouts (CASL, Richmond, Potomac etc). In the spring the then 13's lost in the final to the SGU Santos and now have beaten them twice in the fall season. The current 13's are two time state cup champions and I expect they will be right there again this year. The U11's, made up for 10's and 11's have easily won many of their tournaments, frequently playing in the U12 divisions. I believe that if you have a successful team, players will come.

Players will also follow their coach - case in point: MPSC U15 girls followed their coach to SSC (I think one did not), Paul Conway's U15 girls have followed him from SSC, to Carolina Girls and now, I understand to MPSC.

I seem to remember too...Wando, Bishop England and Porter Gaud boys and West Ashley girls all winning the high school state championships this past spring. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

I think there are hotbeds of good soccer all over the state - what needs to happen is that we all start supporting one another instead of arguing who is best. I don't see any mega clubs popping up anytime soon - there are too many egos out there (as someone else pointed out). We can theorize all we want and come up with statistics to support just about any opinion (How to Lie with Statistics - great read!).

Players and parents are smart - they know where to go.

Soccermom

Here is another thought for comments. Why not creat two or three Challenge Clubs in the state and all the rest play Classic or Rec? Even though we have 8-10 teams typically playing challenge at most ages, there aren't enough coaches or players for more than 3 good teams state wide...
Look at the first round scores, in some cases 2nd round too, of State Cup and try to convince people they should have played Challenge.
The Classic and Rec could have much greater emphasis, be less costly for the majority and still offer the opportunity of Challenge to the top players or those that develop.
These Challenge clubs would begin to compete favorably in the Prem League and in major ournamenrs nationally.

Bob

BobF,
I think my proposal for the Battery would have the LowCountry covered.

Mark Campbell,
Just a few comments on your comments on my last post. My main point was not to say that just great facilities can make great teams and clubs. I do agree with you about Lexington. That is a club that needs to merge so that those great fields can get some quality players on them.
I used the 'field of dreams' comment as a weak attempt at some form of light soccer/baseball analogy. (Actually they are 'lighting the lights'
for the first time tonite in a Coaches v. U-15 to U18 players game.) My main point was that CSC is determined to provide the players at that club with not only great coaches, but good facilities, etc. It all comes down to organization and determined club leadership. Why else would small club Aiken have had great success with the Fire, if it were not for Rhodes determination and organization? CSC has a young, dynamic leader in Crosby and big things are ahead for that club from U10 girls/boys to U18 boys/girls.

This is as much fun as "Does West Ashley have to forfeit" from the Girls High School Soccer forum last spring and summer but without the drama. I doubt it will be good for 159 posts, but we'll see.

lpaf

Soccermom, your memory is not quite right.

Wando HS boys did not make the finals in the spring, losing to Irmo 4-1 in semis; Irmo won finals over Northwestern.

Bishop England also failed to capture the title; they lost in the finals to Chapin.