SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Club Soccer & ODP Midlands Soccer [Moved from Thread with **** in Name]

Whether you agree with all, some, or none of Seethepitch's post, it was very impressive. This is what this forum is all about.

Seethepitch

While I am not anyway remotely affliated with CESA, I believe you are fairly off base in your assessment. GFC and Giles as separate entities used the same basic formula as CESA uses now. Actually, according to some of the "trainers" I have talked to, their work load has gone down. Sure, the whole training system does require a coach to make difficult decisions when it comes to which team I go with to which games. However, as many of the top coaches in the state will tell you, all of your coaching should be done well before you step on the field on Saturday morning. Its not the ideal situation at all times, but it allows quality trainers such as Hyslop, Pearse, Parkinson, Shelley, etc to train as many teams as possible. Thus, that means more players get coaching from these individuals.

"CESA should have KILLED every team with what they have tried to put together."

How can you possibly say that CESA should have killed every team that they played? The rest of the state is not that bad. Do you think that CESA is the only one recruiting and getting the premier players? Because that is absolutely not the case. CSC gets players from Northeast Columbia, Downtown, Mt. Pleasant, Sumter, Fort Mill, etc. Mt Pleasant and Summerville tend to pull from not only the Charleston area, but also regularly from Myrtle Beach, Hilton Head, Columbia, and other areas in the low country. Now, is their pull as strong as CESA's? absolutely not. However, long before the merger, GFC and St. Giles were pulling players from Columbia, Charleston, Rock Hill, etc. CESA did not magically start getting these great players. They have been there for some time.

" Why are elite Premier teams composed of regional players allowed to compete in SCYSA Cups? Do not give me the OH that is the only way to get to Nationals and Regional. Please! If a all South Carolina team composed of players in the clubs area, cannot compete Regionally/Nationally then that club needs to train and develop their respective players better. Not going to the ends of the earth to find a live, willing and paying body to show up to a game."

First of all, you stated in a previously that South Carolina's population is sometimes smaller than some of the Region III cities we must compete against, i.e. Atlanta, Miami, Dallas, Houston, etc. So why can a team go and get the best players possible?
CESA is not the only one's willing to take players from all over. As stated above, the larger clubs in the state tend to draw players from other areas. The Aiken Fire for the last few years have been compromised of numerous players from Georgia, some even from Atlanta. There is a little known club named Northside Soccer Club in the Fort Mill/Rock Hill area, that continually gets players from Charlotte because those players are disgruntled with their local clubs. Do you think this club turns those players down? Absolutely not.

To be honest, you sound like a very disgruntled parent. But you are entitled to your own opinion as I am mine.

I am sure that Pitch's comments will spur many discussions and points of view. However, in the point where Lowerstate talks about coaching before the game, that is simply not reality. The coach on the field does make a difference in most cases. To say that all the coaching is done in practice and the results come in the game does not work with most coaches, at least at this level. Some of the best coaches at CESA are the most vocal ones. Tormey, Hyslop, Minihan, and especially Shelley are very vocal and are not just sitting there during a game. One of the major complaints this year from parents and players is that a coach will have three teams, and is absent from games a good bit. By doing this you are saying that the coaching style is the same throughout the club and that the coaches are all on the same level. Nothing could be further from the truth. CESA, like many clubs has different level of coaches as well as different style of coaches. Take a yelling coach like Osorio or Shelley (both who are very good coaches) off a team for a game, and you can easily get a different game result with a more quieter coach.

Cornerflag

My fault for including the statement that "all" of your coaching should be done before the match. I know for a fact that it does not happen. However, it should have said that most of your coaching should be done before the match. I am certain that you can ask any of those guys at CESA and they will agree with that statement. I agree that it will affect a team to a degree if the coach is not there. There are numerous results from this past season that can attest to that fact. However, can one honestly argue that a team is getting slighted if Osario is not there and Shelley or Hyslop or any of the other numerous trainers are? I dont think so. I think everyone at NECSA would love to have a Tripp Miller on their sidelines, but Tripp is only one person and can only cover so much. I witnessed on numerous occassions that some of the trainers went with the challenge teams and left the premier teams with another trainer. So the argument that CESA cares only for the "elite" player does not hold water with me. As stated previously, the system has its flaws as does any, but obviously it seems to work and more than just the elite player is getting quality training. That was my point.

To be honest, the best system would be to have one coach focus all of his attention to one team. However, last time I checked, Greenville, nor the state for that matter, had 30 or 40 quality coaches in order to achieve this system. You have to work with what is available. The members of CESA should be thrilled to have the number of quality coaches that they possess.

Pitch was trying to say that the training system was a negative for CESA. That just is not true in my opinion. That was the point I was looking to drive home. I just did not state it too well

Cornerflag -- You pointed out that you personally value the "yelling" coaches at CESA.

Some of the best coaches at CESA are the most vocal ones. Tormey, Hyslop, Minihan, and especially Shelley are very vocal and are not just sitting there during a game. ... Take a yelling coach like Osorio or Shelley (both who are very good coaches) off a team for a game, and you can easily get a different game result with a more quieter coach.

I thought the trend in youth soccer was to "be quiet" and let the kids learn from their mistakes, not call play-by-play from the sidelines. I remember reading an article on here last year that said a club/league up North had instituted a "silent day" for their games so no parents or coaches could yell/talk during the game.

What's best -- a yeller or a quiet coach?

LS4A -- However, last time I checked, Greenville, nor the state for that matter, had 30 or 40 quality coaches in order to achieve this system.

Can you list for us the top ten trainers at CESA? How about across the state? Who would you include that could draw the best kids from across the state? Maybe this is where the "ultra-clubs" should focus -- on getting the best coaches together to train kids from all over the state and create a truly elite experience for ALL kids, not just the top 5%. Again, I thought this was the purpose of ODP, but since that is a wayward, money-hoarding organization, we'll leave it to the clubs.

Talon: your last question is probably a topic for discussion at some other time. However, despite what the trend is, there are still some coaches that are very vocal. Maybe the word yelling has negative connotations, but the coaches that I mentioned don't sit completely silent on the sidelines. I have found that at the younger ages, making vocal corrections during a game is not a bad thing, despite what the trend is. As the players get older and more disciplined, you usually see less of it.

Lowerstate: Point understood.

[Preface: My last post on this thread, and, I sincerely hope, my last post on any thread with a title referencing midlands soccer mergers.]

>>[swimmer1] The point of available training sessions right now is a bit misleading isn't it?
Only reason to train right now is for those state champ teams who might need to get to keep their touch for Regonals. MPSC teams playing in Christmas tournaments are stll practicing.<<

I honestly wasn't trying to be misleading, and apologize if I was. Here are some of the reasons players can be training now: [1] holiday team tournaments, [2] spring team seasons [e.g., scrimmaging colleges, tournaments, etc.], [3] ad hoc leagues/tournaments [e.g., indoor leagues, small-sided tournaments, etc.], [4] individual training for high school play, [5] individual training for regional play, [6] team training for regional play, [7] individual for ODP, [8] and so on.

The only point I was trying to make was that the club and parents in that club in which my daughter participates now offers training for multiples of these purposes, so my daughter is happy. I stated it only because the subject raised was commuting to clubs, and I thought it might help if people saw the kinds of services that people who commute to clubs appreciate.

If I were part of a midlands club considering a merger, I would first look at the services I could provide players rather than looking at ways to force players to leave their current team and play on a new one so I could win something.

1) Power should be given to the parents and players; 2) The "rest of the State" did GREAT! My point exactly. Look at how well they did do. Yes! GFC/SGU has pulled players for years. 2004 CESA taunts this once secret and proudly informs the community that other players travel to play with us why not you; 3) SC play should be SC Play! Regional & National play should be just that; 4) Disgruntled "NO" just getting people to discuss the changes. If we continue the SC Cup Play will be made up of only the mega merger teams made up of regional players. If the youth elite needs a way to get to Reg'l. & Nat'l play find another place to compete. Do not change the current system to meet their demands. Develop another divisional group (just like SCYSA did with Challenge Cup - Classic Cup & American Cup call it Premier Cup or they can play in the Super Y); 5)Coaches are coaches and trainers are trainers is the NEW Pitch. Parents are buying into the need for training more than coaching. We will have to wait to see how this player/coach disconnect affects the growth and development of the younger players! The older U15 and above S.C. teams did not develop under this new training model; 6) There are many quality coaches and trainers in South Carolina. PROBLEM - These people MUST fit the Clubs model in order to coach/train. Many very good people are not allowed to carry on because they do not fit (successful team later split and given new trainer and team struggles or coach can only carry a team to a certain age group before he/she identified as not knowing enough about soccer and team taken). Example: A number of years ago clubs turned away from quality coaches training players to a different model of college players training at practice and youth player making decisions in the game. This way trainer can say I train them and they just did not get it in the game - Not my fault - Must be the coach during the game - player just needs to train more! This model also eliminates player/coach role and allows players/parents to be more comfortable moving players around when the club sees a need for a change. Last time I looked soccer was still a TEAM system and TEAM tactic game - not a bunch of trained individuals putting something together in a game; 7) ODP did have the purpose to expose players to the regional & national side. PROBLEM - big money or lack of big money got in the way and ODP quickly has become a negative training option. Plus, a club can go over state boundaries and recruit players for a more successful team. Some Clubs do not support SC ODP! Many think the exposure can be found in other venues with a broader based roster. Once again - One must find the real reason why propaganda(N. 1. information or ideas methodically spread to promote or injure a cause, etc. 2. the deliberate spreading of such information or ideas.) is given - is it money, power, control, resume', win/loss record, ego or is player development? That brings to debate the question of "IS MY CLUB TRAINING THE WHOLE PERSON"? or "SHOULD A CLUB TRAIN THE WHOLE PERSON?" There is sooo much more to talk about!
Very good debate and discussion evolving from the merger topic! Keep it up as more talk needs to be taken back to the proverbial board rooms before more mergers hastily develop!

Seethepitch

a few comments on your last post, mainly item #4

A team can choose to play either Challenge or Classic State Cup at the beginning of the season. Believe me, teams outside of CESA have other goals besides winning a state championship. A state championship is the ultimate goal of every team in the Challenge Cup. However, most teams and clubs know where they fit and have other goals also. Just making the Championship game means tremendous to most clubs as it locks up a Region III Premier spot. Some clubs and teams look to get their teams to the Semis as that would be a huge accomplishment. Just being able to put semi-finalist down on tournament applications can mean alot to some teams and clubs. This allows them to get into tournaments that might be closed to them without being a semi-finalist. So there is no need for another division, because if a team chooses not to take on the "Elite" clubs, then they can play in the Classic Cup. However, there are some players at clubs other than CESA that would consider themselves elite players and want maximum exposure so their teams will choose to play challenge. SCYSA is giving everyone a choice.

You continually bring up Super Y. Do you know anything about Super Y? It is played during the summer. How do you propose the elite teams play in only Super Y? That means they take the whole fall off. I dont think that flies. Plus, like ODP, Super Y has tremendous logistical problems. THere is a reason why SC has only one club that actively participates in Super Y, Aiken is affliated with some clubs from Georgia. GFC, in affliation with the Greenville Lions, participated one or two years but decided to scrap its participation. You might ask Why?