SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Club Soccer & ODP State Cup Begins 11/12

Since the initial state cup thread has been consumed by ODP lovers/bashers, maybe we can begin to post State Cup issues/comments here. These were the most recent posts:

Chapindad
This coming weekend should clear the picture up a little. I thinking seeding in the state cup is probably the most important thing. With the premier league getting seeds 1 and 2 automatically you could easily have the best two teams in the state in the same bracket.
CornerFlag

Chapin,
Forgive my ignorance but usually aren't the 1 and 2 seed split between the brackets?

Correct Chapin,
2 premier teams seeded 1,2. Then 6 ranked challenege teams seeded 2-8. So top 2 would only meet in finals.

tool.

Any other news on whether any teams were granted an early week game in order to attend Raleigh on 11/12?

NO, has that not been discussed enough. I believe that state has made it clear that they are not allowing games to be played earlier than that date. That means one of the 2 u15 premier teams, DSC and CESA, will be losing the application fee to the Raleigh tournament as one of them will have to play a first round game. the higher seed will get a first round bye and be able to attend Raleigh. Do we understand now?

Except that DSC is not on the list of accepted teams, so it only has bearing, if DSC finishes ahead of CESA.

SCYSA should allow for special circumstances, as they did a few years ago when a couple teams were allowed to play during the week of the first round. If DSC or CESA Premier has to play a 1st round game against the last place U 15 team, instead of playing high level teams in Raleigh, how can SCYSA say that is for the betterment of SC soccer?
I know these tournaments are not the same level as Raleigh, but maybe some premier teams that wanted to attend Raleigh and now cannot, should consider these Thanksgiving tournaments to get ready for state cup final: AFC Lightning College Showcase, FC Alliance College Showcase, Charleston Cup.

2004Striker,

Lets look at all the options before you make any assumptions on exactly what I was talking about. Your scenario is very simple and obvious. You might be required to think a little harder or just think.

Two teams are selected to represent SC in the premier league. Have it so far. Usually the selection is the two teams that make it to the finals, but not always. The first place or the second place can opt not to play in the premier league, so then the third place team will be asked then the forth at the lowest point. This happened last year in the U17G grouping. CESA was the third place team but CUSC, the second place team, opted out because of travel. Look at the U17G brackets. CESA is doing a fine job and is ranked correctly as the 1st place team in the age group. The problem comes from MPSC who is getting killed in the premier league. I hope you can follow along. They will get the 2nd seed in the league but are probably in reality a third or fourth seed. Read my next statement before you reply. I have no problem with the seeding. I find it very fair, if you play through the premier league then you deserve a present. I was only pointing out that seeding is very important in the Challenge league and every game counts because of this situation.

My fault guys. Playas **** up too! I was told from a reliable source that both DSC and CESA had applied. I just assumed this was the case and that both would be accepted. I guess maybe i should do my research before hand though

Chapindad,
I am not very good at thinking and so I will have to depend on your excellent ability to do so. So I re-read your post very slowly, at least ten times in an attempt to grasp your complex concepts. However, I think I understand your semi-logic. And I am aware of how premier teams are selected. I was only stating what the exact seedings will be, regardless of the respective team's strength or challenge record. It may indeed be that there is a challenge team who proves to be better than one of the premier teams during the state cup.

Striker... you do not have to go far to prove your point. Last year there was such a situation, including the severe downfall of both premier reps in the state cup. Aiken Fire was one of them as an example. And for all the championships CESA won last year (not arguing just stating facts), the majority of the finals and most of the semis were close matches.

As the saying goes.... "that's why you play the game"

In a previous post I listed the potential challengers to the premier teams. I think that we will see similar situation this year, with more than one surprise exit.

Playing premier is supposed to give you the challenge, but psychology is a mysterious thing when it comes to the young men and ladies. You lose most of the games in Premier your confidence may be shot, or you may be too cocky and think it will be a breeze, or you are the underdog and have nothing to loose.

This is GREAT

Futbol,
I was looking at your post about state cup. Do you not think CESA will win at least one title or was the the teams that might challenge the Premier teams.

CESA hasn't changed that much since last year. I expect them to be in every final and win most of them. I don't think they will get a sweep or at last I hope not.

Nino,
Dr. Phil was actually listing the teams that he thought would challenge the evil empire. Given his psychology insight, this shouldn't be a problem.

I guess, I am Dr phil.... I am looking for these to pose a serious challenge. I believe that history will show many new faces in premier next year.

Pretty, at least I take a shot with the crystal ball, to foment and partake in discussion.... oops!!! maybe I am Chico now....

Yo no entiendo.

foosbal,
You may be a Dr. Phil, but you are not a Chico. If you learn one maxim from this soccer forum, 'there is only one Chico.' No one is Chico, but Chico, and no one can pretend to be Chico, but Chico. He can make or break your foosball career in only a few seconds.

I beg forgiviness to the Holy patriarch of posting for my incursion into his domain.

I accept the lashing received....

There seems to be quite a bit of parity in the U18 boys challenge division. In fact, it looks like the CESA Challenge team may not qualify for the State Cup. What's up with that?

2004striker/futbol(soccer): De nada.

In reality, as you both know, I'm nothing more than an interested dad who knows nothing about soccer, just a little more about business, and am on this board trying to learn. Now...back to the original program...

futbol(soccer): Here's what I don't understand about your premise. You write:

Playing premier is supposed to give you the challenge, but psychology is a mysterious thing when it comes to the young men and ladies. You lose most of the games in Premier your confidence may be shot, or you may be too cocky and think it will be a breeze, or you are the underdog and have nothing to loose.

Given this premise, wouldn't CESA have lost many of the state challenge titles last year since last year many CESA teams were near the bottom of the RIIIPL-East standings last year?

Please note that I am not saying that playing in RIIIPL means that you're a lock, or even should be favored, for winning a state challenge title -- there's too much turn-over of players and coaches from year-to-year for that -- not to mention injuries [which I would guess would be worse in RIIIPL because it seems as if the play is much more physical]. I'm just trying to understand.

>>[Chapindad] The problem comes from MPSC who is getting killed in the premier league.<<

It's interesting you'd pick MPSC U17G as your example; they have won a game in RIIIPL -- something that a lot of South Carolina teams in the past haven't been able to do. From what I hear, they're not a bad team.

Here's the link for the MPSC recent soccer tournament ( U17 girls white division) :
http://soccer.scoreomatic.com/v4/view/tournament.aspx?tournId=3739&g=4&d=49&l=42#division

It looks like MPSC U 17 girls beat CSC 1-0. Probably could have gone either way. They seem to be evenly matched!

It's always interesting when State Cup comes around. Strange things do happen. That's what makes soccer so interesting!

Well... correct my timeframe. CESA was "new" at the state cup. What I notice is that with exception of a few teams, the turnover exists. For example: Summerville wins state and replaces St giles who then merges with GFC and wins state back as CESA or something equivalent boys or girls it does not matter; whilst Summerville does not make it out of the playoff game or semis. I know that there are teams that are clearly head and shoulders above others, but if you look at the Semifinal games on the previous year you would see many close games. Which to me means that 1 thru 4 are somewhat equivalent.

My personal experience as a player and now and then coach, is that teams have a tendency to play at the level of the opposition. You would probably agree with the statement. This is a mental condition

Therefore:
1- Premier teams see higher competition - true
2- Premier teams do not see the SCYSA reps except maybe for tourneys - True
3- Premier team can come in cocky or with confidence shot - depends on the premier experience and the team chemistry
4- SCYSA rep is clearly the underdog - true

To me the tie breaker is 3 and 4 if the skill level is somewhat equal. And it is a lot easier to emphasize 4 than it is to de-emphasize 3.

In my opinion, at the state cup level the mental aspect usually is the deciding factor.

On the other side, for example, it would be interesting to see how Bridge 90 gold prepares for DSC or CESA while going thru the U15 unopposed


Dr. Phil...

futbol(soccer): I don't understand the reference to CESA being "new" to the state cup given that the RIIIPL season ends as the state cup begins and thus CESA came into the state challenge cup with your #3 and #4 in operation.

I do understand, however, what you're basing your belief structure on: that many (if not almost all) teams in the later stages of the state challenge cup are basically equal and as such the mental aspect of being an underdog and/or being arrogant is usually the deciding factor. It will be interesting to see if your premise turns out to be correct. If so, we should expect to see well over 70%-80% of the state championships be teams from clubs other than CESA, right?

I meant CESA was new last state cup...

Based on what I know, 70 to 80 is to high. Many of the CESA teams are very good, others will come in second and some will be left out. So the more correct way to look at it, in my mind, is the future two reps in premier compared to the current two reps.
A 60% change in the combination being different is likely (this could be CESA and someone new or R3PL team 2 and somoeone new or 2 new teams).

Mind you I am pulling this stuff out of the air. There is no way to forecast the intangibles (Home field, refereeing, weather, etc.)

Bridge FA U-15 Boys Gold have been preparing for DSC and CESA by playing in the U-16 age group at tournaments. Last two tournaments they have played in they came in 2nd place in the U-16 bracket. I think this team will do very well in state playoffs after seeing them play at the Mount Pleasant tourney.

futbol(soccer): If we assume all teams are equal, then in any age bracket with eight teams and three rounds there is a 93.75% probability that one or both of the teams that reach the finals were not the incoming premier teams.

Your premise that "...at the state cup level the mental aspect usually is the deciding factor." coupled with your theory that emphasizing the underdog factor would seem to mean that we should see over a 93.75% change in one or both of the teams (assuming complete equality).

Thus, if only a 60% change in the combination occurs, that means that at least 33.75 points are due to other factors: coaching, talent, increased challenge of RIIIPL, etc.) That's where I'm being woefully stupid here; I don't understand how the advantage of "SCYSA rep is clearly the underdog - true" is manifested in your prediction.

Interesting stuff...thanks for discussing this.

P.S. As an exercise left to the reader, what is the probability given equal teams that a club with one set of teams in each bracket of the U15-U18 challenge cup will win all of the titles? (Hint: It's pretty low.)

P.P.S. LE Dude - I know...if you wanted to read a probability textbook, you'd take Probability 101...sorry...

Heh..as soon as I saw the "%" I started scrolling down.. then I saw that I was being addressed.

..not really sure why.. but.. you are right. Probability (math in general) is not my forte.

Anyway..I'm sure your post was excellent as usual. Carry on.

F.Y.I.
RIIIPL 10-30-05 U-15 Boys CESA-3 DSC-2.
Looks like CESA's in pretty good shape come tourney time.

Wow, what a quandry now. CESA Premier and DSC both have the same record with two games to play, CESA ahead based on head to head.

DSC has two games this weekend. CESA doesn't have their final two games scheduled until after the first round of the state cup.

Any ideas on what the SCYSA is going to do with this one, with the first round bye at stake?

Since CESA cannot complete their premier schedule until after 1st rd..........looks like it will depend on the winning % of each team after this weekend, as to who gets a 1st rd. bye.
If still tied it is head to head going to CESA.

2004,
I don't see how you can fairly determine the percentage if DSC has 9 games and CESA has 7. YOu might have to look at something along the lines of like opponents.

Regardless of the # of games played, winning % is how it is determined.
*From State Cup Rules* - 'The team with the highest points percentage from the Region III PremierLeague will be seeded number 1 and the second highest points percentage from the Region III Premier League will be seeded number 2. The team with the highest points percentage from the South Carolina State Challenge League will be seeded number 3 and so on through number 8. If two or more teams are tied on percentages at the end of the season, the following tie breaking
procedures will be used:
a. Head to head competition (if three teams are tied go direct to b.)
b. Goal differential with a maximum differential of three (3) goals per game
c. Total goals scored
d. Fewest total goals allowed in all games
e. Fewest red cards
f. Coin toss
• The highest seeded teams through number 4 will play their First Round games in their home District.'

Thanks for the tutorial Mr. "Concrete One." Is the "Regardless of the # of games played, winning % is how it is determined" your words or is that listed on the website.I'm pretty sure though that these by laws were written with the idea that the same number of games are to be played. I know for a fact that this is done in SCYSA and that all games will be made up so everyone has a equal shot. I have got to believe that the powers that be will make a decision that is fair. If CESA only played one game and won and DSC played 8 and went 4 and 4 I don't see how this static tiebreaker could sort that out. That is an obvious exaggeration but that does get to the logical end of it. I would find the like opponents and then go to the percentage and then go through the tiebreaker from that point.

2004... I have to go with Nino on this one. I know it is written in SCYSA that way but some measure of competitiveness must come in. My call would be head to head first, if tied PKs

I think 04 got it right. There is no mention in the rules as # of games played. Winning pct. is an un-ambiguous of writing up the rule. The other way may not be fair either. A top team in Aug may be a weak team in Oct due to injuries or other factors.

El nino,
I just gave the rules from the website about winning %. I cant see how SCYSA would look at it different and look at common opponents? The schedule should have been changed early in the season so CESA could play all games before 1st round. Maybe SCYSA will do something different to determine the bye. Just dunno.

Kickman,

The roster can be seen on the teams hotstat page, as with most teams.

Kickman...U17 stands for Under 17 and U15 stands for Under 15...these are two different age groups.

i heard that mt.p sting lost to charleston thunder...is this rumor or truth?

U-17G Scores

NECSA over Clemson 2-0
CSC over Tega Cay 3-1