SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Club Soccer & ODP Traditional Clubs VS Power Clubs

How hard will it be for a traditional soccer club/team to attract quality players with the success of CESA and Bridge ? I find it hard to believe that a quality player would have a desire to play for a mediocre club/team.

Next to impossible. The big names of CESA and Bridge attract many quality soccer players not only from the Greenville area or the Summerville/Mnt. pleasant area, but also from columbia, anderson, clemson, and in some cases Georgia and probably from other areas in lower state concerning Bridge. One reason a quality player wants to play for a prestigous club such as CESA and Bridge, is so they can be seen by scouts on a regional or national level. Now in the classic leagues there are other small clubs that can dominate such as Aiken and Tri-county, but in the challenge and premier leauges its just going to get harder and harder for traditional teams/clubs to become real power houses because there can only be so many great clubs in one state.

I know of several players from smaller clubs that only offer classic level soccer who travel considerable distances to play for challenge teams. Obviously these players will be thinking of trying out for one of the two "Super clubs", especially if there is an expansion in the Columbia area.

This will make the try-out process much more convoluted. Should all players with ambition try out for CESA / Bridge, and then if they don't make it onto the premier or challenge team, go back to another club? I assume that most clubs will have try outs about the same time, so this makes the logistics very complicated. CESA and Bridge would be doing everyone a favor if they held their try outs and announced their selections a week before everyone else.

Should parity even be a consideration for SCYSA / SCSCL / the various Executive Directors of clubs as they develop their mission statements?

Do Bridge and CESA now replace ODP as the primary mechanism for "getting seen"? (Maybe they did a while ago, and SCYSA hasn't noticed yet...)

So many considerations for the ambitious player (and parent). Keep repeating, "It's just a game, it's just a game..."

With this expansion to Columbia Cesa is considering, will all players come to one place to tryout and with practice the columbia kids, in my mind must come to Greenville at least once a week to get a practice in with their team, then practicing at the Cesa facility in columbia the other days. is that how its going to work?

It's my understanding that that is what they do now, only not at "Cesa" facilities. I believe that there will be actual teams in Columbia. At least at the classic and rec level.

Futbol G-
Previous press release by CESA states Columbia based teams. That means CESA will have teams that train and play home games in columbia hence CESA Columbia. I guess.

If that is the case just what does CESA intend to do by moving into the Cola area? If the top players are driving to CESA to play on the top teams (which they are) and if the players from the cola area are going to be playing on "their own" teams why would they want to leave one of the established clubs in the area? Who will the adacemy kids play? will they have to drive to greenville every weekend or will they only practice and never get any "games"? It sounds to me that CESA will be doing nothing but diluting the already diluted talent pool in the cola area. If CSC, NECSA, LCSC can not get the talent together what makes anyone think CESA can? That brngs up the question...who will coach them? The established clubs in Cola already employee most of the top coaches in the area and I'm sure they are under some sort of annual contract. So what is CESA going to do come in and throw more money their way to get them to break contracts and "jump" clubs? If that is the case I would hope SCYSA would step in because nothing good can come from that...It seems that the coaches and the clubs forget that it's all about the kids not the clubs or coaches.

Lots of questions/opinions; I'll give you my personal opinions on a few:

• Why would any player want to leave one club to join another? The only reason I would think anyone would switch clubs would be if a club delivered a much higher value to a player.
• In terms of "diluting the talent pool"; anytime you have more than one club, you are theoretically "diluting the talent pool." In this same way, Foothills, Furman, CESA, CFC, ASA, and others "dilute" the talent pool in the Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson area. In reality, it's about offering higher value services to kids -- and if you do it right, increasing the talent pool by increasing the penetration of soccer into underserved areas.
• If [Columbia-area clubs] can't get the talent together what makes anyone think [another club] can? There are two ways to look at the problem: trying to "force" parents/players together to increase the depth of the talent pool or trying to increase the depth of the talent pool through development. Since there's no way that any club can "force" parents/players together in the Columbia area, my guess would be to look toward development.
• Coaches breaking contracts. If a coach breaks a contract, then the club itself should have recourse (e.g., legal, SCYSA, whatever); just as if a club breaks a contract with a coach. Coaches are adults and should be treated as adults -- they have to honor their contracts -- just as clubs have to honor their contracts. There's not much wiggle room here (except for that implicit in any legal/arbitration-based system.)
• It's all about the kids not the clubs or coaches. It's hard for me to grasp the argument that multiple clubs offering different services represents a threat to my children that live in Columbia. However, multiple clubs offering the same services does not offer my children living in Columbia much at all.

Bluntly, folks, the Columbia area might be great for certain teams but to date it's been not so good in my experience in terms of being "for the kids" in any general way. For example, I've heard from some parents right now in Lexington that there are kids that want to play high school but are afraid of not being able to stay on (or even get back on) their club team because their club coach will "kick them off and not let them rejoin." I thought this was highly unusual; but in researching this I found the following post where something similar was described by another parent almost three years ago at an entirely different club. Bluntly, I'd like to see a high-level club (or clubs!) in the Columbia area in which more focus is given to the value delivered to kids rather than on the value delivered to clubs.

>> [lurker] Should parity even be a consideration for SCYSA / SCSCL / the various Executive Directors of clubs as they develop their mission statements?<<

Parity within what area? A municipality? South Carolina? Region III? The United States? Etc.

I vote at least "The United States." Let's not automatically condemn children living in South Carolina from having the opportunities other children in other states have.

I agree completely that SC players need to have an opportunity to be competitive at the highest level. I fully support what the "super-clubs" are doing to make that happen. (Plus, I love watching them play when they are on an adjacent field to my classic team.)

However, in my opinion, what these clubs have done is create another informal tier in the soccer club hierarchy. There is now classic, challenge, CESA / Bridge and premier. To progress from classic to premier, a player needs to go through one of the two big teams.

I'm a parent of a good player in a town without a challenge team. We've discussed the possibility of spending a few hours a week in the car to have him play on a challenge team. But, looking at the results, if that team is not CESA or Bridge, it makes it very hard to justify the cost. And even if he was good enough to make the roster of CESA or Bridge, that's way too far for us.

My question concerning the mission statements of SCYSA, SCSCL and the clubs is one of ownership of the process for making South Carolina competitive at the next level. It appears that two clubs have taken it upon themselves to make this happen. And that's great. But, does it make the ODP (and therefore SCYSA) irrelevant? And does that hurt the goal of providing a league within SC where any team can start the season knowing they have a shot of finishing in better than third place?

Preface: lurker, I appreciate the conversation and the chance to learn.

>>[lurker] However, in my opinion, what these clubs have done is create another informal tier in the soccer club hierarchy. There is now classic, challenge, CESA / Bridge and premier. To progress from classic to premier, a player needs to go through one of the two big teams.<<

What I see is that in select South Carolina used to have classic and challenge. Sure, we used to play in RIIIPL-East, but except for some "heroic, one-off" teams we were a laughing-stock [we produced teams that lost almost all their games with goal differentials of -25 or worse [I've seen even -60]]. Slowly, in fits and starts, several clubs have begun producing an array of teams [not just a one-off team] that are more competitive in RIIIPL-East. So we're beginning to have classic, challenge, and premier.

The discontinuity that's occurred in the last 18 months that is making people feel uncomfortable is that process -- we have clubs involved in the change that will hopefully allow South Carolina to compete better in RIIIPL-East. The only scary thing is that other states are improving as we're improving; so it's not a matter of whether we're changing for the better but how fast we're changing for the better.

>>[lurker] But, looking at the results, if that team is not CESA or Bridge, it makes it very hard to justify the cost. And even if he was good enough to make the roster of CESA or Bridge, that's way too far for us.<<

I understand that -- each family has to make a decision. One of the reasons I'm so glad that CSC/NECSA decided to merge and that CESA is expanding their Columbia stuff is that it puts a third metropolitan area into the mix -- which increases the convenience factor for players that wish to compete [not just play] at the highest possible level.

>>[lurker] My question concerning the mission statements of SCYSA, SCSCL and the clubs is one of ownership of the process for making South Carolina competitive at the next level. It appears that two clubs have taken it upon themselves to make this happen. And that's great. But, does it make the ODP [and therefore SCYSA] irrelevant? And does that hurt the goal of providing a league within SC where any team can start the season knowing they have a shot of finishing in better than third place? <<

In Georgia there's always a lot of worry that the Atlanta teams dominate. In North Carolina there's always a lot of worry that Raleigh-area teams dominate. And for the most part they do -- the combined forces of better clubs and better demographics make them hard to stop.

South Carolina has several metropolitan areas; there's no demographic reason that one area should be dominant over others. However, up until 18 months ago, areas with less population density were able to better compete due to the fragmentation of clubs coupled with relatively poor organizational processes [for competing at higher levels]. What Bridge showed in the last 6 months is that it's possible to make great strides if you are willing to do it.

Now onto ODP. ODP is an identification and selection process. I know that lots of people want it to be more; but it is what it is. ODP fits into a national scheme; fundamentally changing it would appear to be outside of the control of any state.

Now, I know that lots of players and parents believe in ODP from a resume or university coach identification point of view. I get that. But that's going to be secondary to the overall goals of the program.

You could make a fascinating case for SCYSA becoming deeply involved in the training of players -- either through ODP or through some other tangential process. As somone who believes offering more training is better, I'd be all for it. But as it is now, the only vehicle that is training related is the club -- so I'm hoping that the trend continues and more clubs offer more and better training.

I guess that I'm not advocating any significant changes to either the existing club structure or SCYSA's involvement. I'm just happy to see players from SC succeeding at higher levels.

But to get back to the original post, it will be a tough decision for players when it comes time for try outs. Obviously, with the current situation, Bridge and CESA become the first choices for many players. A NESCA / CSC merged team would be a good alternative, but it's an unknown at this time, and you are taking your chances. The other clubs that field challenge teams will be filled with two types of players: those that have been with those clubs for a long time and prefer to remain with their coaches and teammates, and those that did not make it to the top teams. When deciding where to try out, a player has a tough decision. (I know, Chico, decisions are a good thing. It means better options.)

When you make a decision to buy a car, you can go back and forth between dealers until you find the complete package that best suits your needs. When you pick a soccer club, you may not have that opportunity if all of the clubs have the same try out weekend. I understand that clubs don't want large numbers of players trying out if they have no intention of accepting a position, so this makes it tough on them as well.

I really think that it would be a good idea for CESA and Bridge and probably CSC / NECSA to schedule their try outs before the rest of the clubs. That may seem like a slap in the face to the other clubs, who may have to accept the fact that they are second choice for some players, but it's the cold hard reality. As a coach, I would hate to lose my best players to a better team, but I would fully understand it and support it, especially if I can't offer them that level of development and competition.

I really think that everyone has gone a little overboard with the whole superclub thing. If you look at the number of championships that GFC and St. Giles won before the merger into CESA, it did not differ greatly from the results after the merger. Those 2 clubs dominated soccer in SC before the merger so it only made since that they dominate after. What it did do was merge the kids from GFC/St. Giles that were not winning state to give them a better chance to win. What they did last year by sweeping the regional teams was amazing, but remember a lot of the games went into OT or were very close even after the merger.

Now, Bridge comes along and they are a superpower. The 2 teams that won this year for Bridge were already state championship contenders from the past. They are now playing under the Bridge banner, but still have a lot of the same players from before. The U16 team that won actually used to be under the Summerville banner and was the state champ for 2 years I believe. The u17 team played under OSSOC, then MP and now Bridge. The u17 team was actually state champions at u14 and the runner up the last 2 years.

To say that the superclubs CESA and Bridge created these teams is crazy. There may have been a little more cooperation down at the coast since Bridge was somewhat neutral as far as the politics go, but the basis for these teams existed. I did recognize a good player from a very mediocre Summerville team playing with the Bridge U17 team and that is why Bridge was formed since that player may not have ever gone to MP.

Having watched the teams in the u15-u18 boys from the time that they were in some cases u10's, the competing teams have not changed but the banner the team plays under has.

What the superclubs offer is more resources, more good coaches (becuase of resources - $$$) and possibly in the long run better facilities.

Regardless of whether its Bridge or CESA or any team/club. You have to look at the needs of the player, the dedication and drive of that player and weigh that into any decision about club selection. Even with the "Superclub", you need to do your homework on the coach that might possibly coach your child should they make the superteam. It really might not be a match. A decision to travel very far for a team should also be taken seriously (I drove my kids over an hour to practice for 5 years). I wouldn't trade those 5 years for anything for many reasons, but the player has to want to commit the time. By the time you add drive time, a practice might be 4-5 hours a night. Multiply that by 3 and that is a large commitment of time. Homework has to be done in the car, social life put on hold 3 of 5 days a week. I am not a big believer of practicing with another group and then playing with the team on weekends because soccer is truly a team game and practicing together only makes you better, but some people are able to make it work.

Bottom line, make sure that the club/team that the player and the parents pick is a good match for everyone involved. A bad decision affects everybody on the team, not just you.

For the parents that are so concerned about little Johnny getting his feelings hurt their is always Rec soccer and your local AYSO. Why is it that every parent thinks his kid is the next Rooney, or Hamm ? If you as a parent would like to see your child playing at the highest level of club soccer, he or she would have to put in a minimum of 2-3 extra intense training sessions a week (indoor, pickup games, extra club sessions, speed & agility etc,). If your child is doing the minimum training sessions his or her club offers don't expect your child to compete for a position on a CESA, Bridge premier team.

sweetfeet and soccerpop- So Cesa is going to try and make more seperate teams that are just based in columbia. And get the top players from the clubs in columbia just to make a good team with the "CESA" title. if thats the case then it will get boring, because CESA will be taking the best of the clubs in columbia to maybe make a challenge team then that would force the already challenge teams in columbia to play classic because they wont be any good. therefore the challenge league will be left with 2 cesa teams a bridge team a mp team and maybe one other team. thats no fun. i might be getting this wrong but thats what i understand now. We need more teams in the challenge league! where will they come from if CESA is going to take them?

Rcates, You are absolutely correct in that there have always been dominant teams. It's just that since the mergers and name changes, it's much more obvious. The appearance, if not the reality, is that these are new teams, and very, very dominant. For youth players, the impression is very strong. They all want to play for the best, whether that is Real Madrid at the global level, the National Team at the World Cup, or the local hot-shot club in their part of the state. With the state caliber teams being much more easily identified now, it factors into a player's aspirations much more than it used to. Most players realize that they won't make any of these teams, but it's fun to dream. And if going to the try out is practical, then why not?

sweet feet - You started an interesting thread which sparked some good discussion. Why the attack? No one said anything about their little Johnny deserving a spot anywhere, much less being the next Rooney or Hamm. We were just discussing how the "Power Clubs", as you called them, are changing the face of SC soccer, which is what I thought was the intent of this thread.

lurker, you hit the nail on the head. I have been around for a long time. Unfortunately, through no fault of my own, I probably won't be following most of these teams that closely after a few more years, children do grow up. I guess, in my eyes, these are the same teams. To new players and parents, you want to play with the "big boys" if the talent is there. As I stated before, we did it and it was a perfect fit while we did it. We really only left because my youngest wanted to play football also, and that was one of the sacrifices he had made before that.

I have to admit, if I were starting over now, that I would probably wouldn't consider playing anywhere else.

Lurker-
Sorry, no attack intended. It just seems to me that the only people that have a problem with the CESA'S & Bridge's of the world, are the players and parents of those players that can't compete at the highest level, hence the bashing of the power clubs. My point was simple, if you have a problem with the structure, their are plenty of options out their for the average player.

How about a twist to this discussion ..... What affect will the "Power Clubs" have on the High School landscape? We already see the affect of strong club teams on 1A schools in pseudo-metro areas, what about the dispersion of 3A and 4A school's talent as more teams fragment in the fall?

After all, this is a message board on the High School Soccer Coaches Association web site.

OK think about this...what happens when "if" sc has CESA, Bridge, and ? (CSC/NECSA) That would in theory give the top players in each region the opportunity to play on a top level team. However, if I'm not mistaken SC only gets 2 slots in the premier league, so that leaves 1 "powerhouse" team with little to no competition during regular season play. What then? Does that team play in their league or do they just play in tournaments?
Belive me I'm all for "power clubs" and what they can do for SC soccer on the regional and national level. But I worry about what they inadvertantly do to soccer on the state and local level.

sweet feet, just so you know I do have one that plays at the highest level our club offers and has been recruited by other clubs.

Coach Cady - In the traditional markets, many HS players play club ball in the fall with their teammates. This improves them both individually and as a team. If a small number of the team moves on to a better club in the next town, that may hurt the team chemistry a bit, but this is offset by the expected improvement of these players as individuals.

Now, in the areas that these power clubs exist, HS soccer will get even better. Since these areas already have strong HS programs, I think you'll see even less parity than you see now. In your 1A group, this is already obvious.

One of the most interesting developments that I saw on the CESA website was an announcement that they were opening a homework and tutoring center at one of their facilities. That way players and siblings who spend a lot of after school time at the field can still work on priority number one. To me, that's the biggest benefit I've ever seen coming out of a large soccer organization. Hopefully, CESA will develop at least one or two soccer superstars who are also academically gifted, and they end up at GSSM.

Coach Cady....great point on how this translates to high school soccer. On the girls side, CESA has swept all four state cups the past two years. I'm sure this will translate to state championships for some of these girls on the high school level as well.

But last year, the 3A and 4A finalists were Eastside, B-C, West Ashley and Fort Mill. I know Eastside had some CESA players but how many girls on the other three squads won club championships that fall for CESA?

There is no doubt that playing at the highest level will make you a better player and consequently improve your high school team. But "year-round" chemistry may be more of a factor on the girls HS teams than it is on the boys HS teams.

Just a thought.

Frankly yo u cannot compare... By the its very nature, the two are going in opposite directions. Superclubs will pick the best of the litter, thus few from every a HS. HS on the other hand are getting more spread out due to numbers (see Blythewood, the new school in Rock hill area, the new HS in Ballantine coming soon, etc..)

Therefore Clubs concentrate and HS dilute. The only advantage is if a given HS school inherents talent at the same time (Irmo, DF, Wando) based on the demographics.

Sorry about the spelling/grammar.... that was real crap. The point should come across anyway.

futbol....bad grammar, good point. New high schools are diluting talent from Hilton Head, Northwestern, Spring Valley, Fort Mill, etc.

What new HS in Ballentine?

Chapindad,
There once was a proposal... I don't know if it was in the last defeated ballot or not.

You however would probably know best.