SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums College, Pro & International Soccer USC Soccer

I counted the 14 Freshmen, 6 Sophmores, 4 Juniors, and 3 seniors. I wish I had last years roster and the year before that. We seem to have 10+ freshman every year. We are never going to get better if we keep fielding a young freshman team each and every year...

Example lets look at Georgia: 5 Freshman(1 red shirt), 9 Sophmores, 4 Juniors, 3 Seniors.

I wouldn't be so upset if it wasn't that USC has been doing this since the end of Sue Kelly's years. And we haven't competed in years either...

On the bright size, here's the ranking of both Georgia and USC in terms of recruiting classes in the last few years.

Year SC Georgia
2004 23 39
2003 39 21
2002 ** **
2001 ** 16
2000 48 34

(**) Not ranked in the top 50.

USC broke into the top 25 for the first time this century in 2004; Georgia has been much more consistent recruiting with two years in the top 25 and only one year in which they weren't in the top 50.

[Source: www.soccerbuzz.com]

The only bright side I see with Carolina is that they are recruiting girls closer to home and not working by the old proverb, "If you speak a foreign language or have a heavy accent then you must be a pro soccer player."

So I am hoping that will translate into players staying on the entire 4-5 years. I would be interested to know why most of the girls leave the program. What I fear is the coach is running off the players in order to upgrade with freshman. Think Carolina football under Brad.

USC's rankings in women's soccer according to Albyn Jones' power ratings.

(2003) #61, 10-8-3
(2002) #61, 13-6-2
(2001) #107, 8-7-3
(2000) #130, 4-16-0
(1999) #44, 14-6-0
(1998) #70, 11-7-1
(1997) #103, 8-11-0
(1996) #81, 10-7-2
(1995) #110, 8-10-2

I counted the 14 Freshmen, 6 Sophmores, 4 Juniors, and 3 seniors. I wish I had last years roster and the year before that. We seem to have 10+ freshman every year. We are never going to get better if we keep fielding a young freshman team each and every year...

Example lets look at Georgia: 5 Freshman(1 red shirt), 9 Sophmores, 4 Juniors, 3 Seniors.
___
Chapindad,
Look closely at your example...
Seniors Juniors Sophs Froshs
USC 3 4 6 14
Georgia 3 4 9 5

The only major difference is the number of Freshman. So what exatly is the point??? USC have the same number of upperclass players as Georgia. If you're outrecruiting your previous Freshman class, then that is a good thing as long as you have some quality upperclassmen on the team.

My point is that Carolina needs to start to stablize their recruiting classes and get a better spread of players across the program and not be freshaman loaded every year.

Outrecruiting your freshaman every year is not a good thing. Especially when we have been doing at least 5 years in a row that I can remember. What example of leadership do you set for the team when you run off the freshman every year and that is if we are assuming correctly that it is the case of outrecruiting. I am more worried that it is a case of players getting frustrated with the program and leaving. I guess I will have to throw more stats at the topic.

I just hope that stating this opion doesn't incite a rebellion by the youth that reads this board. Any opion I have should not be read by the youth of America as it could make you think.

A few more stats. I went to the College ranking and picked 5 teams in the top 25 and did a roster count.

Team (Rank) FR SO JR SR
NC (1)          7  7  9  8
FSU (4)         7  7  6  2
Penn (6)        6  5  7  5 
Tenn (12)      7  5  2  7 
BC (25)         7  6  7  5

I think I have proven my point. If you want to be a top twenty five team then you need to stablize the players and get a greater spread of upper and under classwomen.

'chapindad' -- interesting numbers.

But, what is an "opion"?

Better?

Oh, excellent!

>> [Chapindad] The only bright side I see with Carolina is that they are recruiting girls closer to home […]<<

I think it’s important not to confuse cause and effect. I hope that the reason USC is recruiting “closer to home” is that they find better players than they can find elsewhere. If two players are exactly equal, then I completely understand and hope that they choose a local player; otherwise I hope they find the best players regardless of where they live.

One reason I think you saw more local recruiting was the fact that some SC clubs put out superior teams and players. Three of the nine recruited players were from the very strong 2003-2004 GFC U18G team that while losing to Quest at regionals was a regional and national contender that was ranked as high as #7 nationally. And of course they recruited Galloway from Spartanburg – relatively poor team, but excellent player. Two more came from Quest’s U18 team, which won at regionals over the GFC U18 team – and then a set of others from the strong Atlanta area.

Will recruiting within the state continue? I would think it would completely depend on the quality of players and teams clubs are able to produce. There are three major metropolitan areas: Charleston, Columbia, and Greenville-Spartanburg. I don’t see strong women’s programs in the fragmented Columbia clubs [I don't think this is bias -- I want to see one, I just don't]. Charleston has MPSC that has been strong and by some measures seems to be getting stronger. The SGU/GFC merger to form CESA will hopefully be able to produce superior players and teams; I know that being able to offer superior services for the highly ambitious player as well as the more casual player was a driving factor for the merger. I keep hoping that Aiken will step forward and be able to draw from Augusta, Aiken, and Columbia to take their women’s program to the next level – I know that with the Aiken Burn playing premier this year, with Rhodes coaching, and with some of their excellent talent they seem to be taking the first step.

In any case, it seems to me that if we want to see USC recruit more local talent then we need to apply as much pressure as possible on the clubs that serve us to offer higher quality services to highly ambitious players and then patronize only those clubs that actually do so [shun the ones that don't].

>> [Chapindad] A few more stats. […]<<

One interesting thing about these rankings is that almost every team in the top 25 was in the top 25 the year before [exceptions are BYU and Pepperdine]. You could make the argument that once you are in the top 25, that a natural consequence would be that it might be hard to recruit a better freshman class each year since your team performed so well previously.

Trying to do a multidimensional statistical analysis of correlation and causation of experience and improvement might be interesting, but I fear that we’re going to miss the forest for a few trees. So let’s try to go back to basics.

1) All coaches want to “stabilize” in much the same manner Anson Dorrance has done – they want to achieve #1 and stay at #1.

2) The theoretical best way to “stabilize” is to have the same number of players at each class level, with playing time being biased toward players with more experience. [Of course, Anson Dorrance with Heather O'Reilly last year might practically disagree -- but note I said "theoretical".]

3) If you’re not Anson Dorrance or the coach of a very highly ranked team, then the question is not how do you stabilize but rather how do you improve. There’s no one easy answer, but attempting to radically improve your skill base by actively recruiting and increasing internal competition for playing time would seem to be key components. [Note: Having read Dorrance’s “Vision of a Champion”, I would think he’d tell you that it’s actually no different for a highly ranked team – it’s just harder to recruit better talent each year because of your success in recruiting in previous years.] In other words, as a coach, would you rather have more talent available with select upperclassmen leadership or would you rather have less talent available in a homogeneous class distribution? I’d pick the former. Once you achieve success, balancing your classes becomes a bit more important.

When I write this stuff, I simply try to have empathy for what it must be like to be a coach. If I read all of this stuff, I’d probably beat my head against a wall – because after pulling off the highest ranked recruiting year in available history, I’ve got folks complaining because we have too many freshmen. My position is that I don’t care about balance at this point – what I care about is USC continuing to increase the quality of its recruiting and continue to improve in national rankings.

I have a few comments to add about USC Women's soccer. First, Coach Smith is just entering her fourth year as head coach. It is just now becoming a team she has built. In her tenure here she has had, as MC stated, 'select upperclassmen leadership' while recruiting many freshmen. Without looking at last years roster to be absolutely sure, she hasn't had a lot of turnover from last year as I see it. Also, consider that the roster is increasing about 5 - 7 more players. That's half of the freshmen recruits. That brings their roster up to the size of UNC and without that increase it would give USC a very similar roster size and distribution of the FSU team.

Why is it then, when players leave a team it's always 'the coach is driving them away.' Maybe players choose to leave because (a) they're not comfortable with South Carolina the state (b) it took a great commitment of time to make the grades they desired and chose their education over athletics [what a novel idea] (c) they didn't make the grades to stay on the team (d) they found out they'd rather party and get involved in other extracurricular activities (e) they weren't getting as much playing time as they thought they deserved so they transferred to another school.

It's not just athletes who get into college and just can't hack it for the multitude of reasons/excuses that exist. You don't hear on the academic side that 'of the 2001 freshmen class only 50% were still enrolled in 2004, why is the university president/dean/professor driving them away?'

Keep it in perspective. First, it's only a game. Second, hearsay second-hand information doesn't really give you every bit of information as to why each young player leaves a program. Last, just because your child, friend, etc doesn't make the team or get recruited to play on the team, doesn't mean the coach is bad and the program is falling apart.

Just my thoughts.

Wow. I seem to be getting discusses going in lots of places.

First off, dhunter, your last statement implies that I am having a problem with USC because they didn't recruit my daughter. She is much to young for me to worry about right now. Maybe in a few years I will have that problem, but not now. So lets stick with facts in a debate and not us slick republican attacks. Do you work for Fox News?

Second, I am a concerned Carolina fan and only a fan. I have been following the women's soccer program very closely for about eight years now. As I stated this seems to be a year in year out problem under two different coaches. This does not inspire players or fans about the success of a program when they see new faces every year. Heck, I can't even follow a good player through the program because they rarely make it to be a senior. This is a game and you are suppose to sell tickets. Only Carolina football fans pay to see a losing program year and year out. Don't get me wrong I will be at at least 4-6 home games this season cheering them on but it is very disappointing to me for us not to have a better program. I do love that they are using more locals which is why Coach Smith has my support, which I know is very important to her. You can disagree wih someone and still support them. I do realize this seems to be a forgein concept on this message board.

Coach Smith has had 4 years with the program and only gradualted 3 seniors, she recruited. What happen to the other recruits for that year. I am going to have to find the rosters of past to use as evidence.

2004S --

If memory serves me right, redneck soccer was your area of expertise. Do you do misogyny, too?

lpaf

lpaf,
I dont have a dislike for women, its just that their pitch play is less than inspiring. We, at the Red Neck League state office, hope to remedy this by having in place next spring a co-ed Red Neck League, in addition to the boys league. We have not figured out how to prevent co-mingling and drinking among the players, just yet. Any suggestions?

>> [Chapindad] Only Carolina football fans pay to see a losing program year and year out.<<

Dude, this is getting strange. The USC women’s soccer record for the last four years [from an earlier post]:

2003: 10-8-3
2002: 13-6-2
2001: 8-7-3
2000: 4-16-0

I’m 99.99% sure that if the number on the left is larger than the second number then that’s the definition of a “winning season”. I count 3 winning seasons in a row -- and didn't have to use my toes. I have a Ph.D. so you can trust me.

>> [Chapindad] So lets stick with facts in a debate and not us slick republican attacks. Do you work for Fox News?<<

I’m pretty sure that Juan Williams, an NPR journalist but also a Fox News contributor, would agree with me on the definition of “winning season”. And since I graduated from USC but played football [badly] at Clemson, I can tell you from a bipartisan [football] point of view that at least in the last 20 years, the definition of a "winning season" hasn't changed. Charlie Pell darned well knew what a winning season was, and wasn't adverse to paying top dollar to get it.

Smiles....You must be a republician. You have the numbers but no detail.

2003: SEC: 3-5-1
Also losing to Clemson, Furman, and Texas A&M.
2002: SEC: 4-3-2
Also losing to Clemson
2001: SEC: 1-7-1
Also Losing to Clemson

I only have an Associates from Midland's Tech and they thought me to look deeper at the numbers. That is a losing season in the SEC. 2002 is the only technically winning season but I wouldn't be proud of it. Your stats only prove that she is learning to stack the table with easy out-of-conference teams. Of course I would do the same thing with a freshman class every year. Also how deep has the team gone in the SEC tournament the last years. If I am not mistaken I don't think they have past the first game. But I'm sure your PHD will figure out how this is still top 25 team, and that the liberal press is keeping down and giving no respect.

Not to get overly political, but ask Osama who he would vote for in 2004?

Kerry & Co. have no business leading America. A novel notion that only our enemies would love. Weakness (i.e. - DEMS) invites aggressors -- look what happened in 2001 as a result of Clinton's administration. We cannot endure another regime as such.

I'm off my soapbox now.

BUSH2004!

Come on guys..........its only harmless female soccer....... Are all these numbers and stats necessary?? And now Osama is a part of the discussion? When will it all end??

Okay, it's getting too strange here for me to follow...

My Ph.D. and a dollar won't buy me a cup of coffee; so hopefully you know I was being sarcastic and self-deprecatory. The "toes" comment I hope was a give away.

Honestly, Chapindad, I'm not smart enough to follow a lot of what you're doing here on this thread. You say USC has a losing season year in and year out, but when confronted you say that you meant "SEC losing season year in and year out" and even then note they didn't in 2002 but that wasn't worth much. You compare GA to USC in an argument about younger players, but ignore the best recruiting class this century and the fact that GA had the same number of seniors and juniors. You randomly pick 5 top 25 teams and compare their classes, and yet ignore the fact that all of the teams you picked were already top 25 teams in the previous year.

I'm going to have to beg off this thread and go learn some more to be able to one day fully grasp the subtle and detailed nuances of all of this.
___________________________
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.

This is Twilight Zone stuff. Missing posts, toe counting, liberal press, Osama's pick for president.... Where else but the off season on SCSoccer.com. Mark, don't give up. Sometimes the pigs dance a bit at the singing and are thought to enjoy the lessons by 7 out of 10 vets.

lpaf

ps: To add my unasked for 2 cents about USC v Clemson football, Carolina football has, with few exceptions, instilled the virtues of humility and reasonable expectations to generations of gamecock fans. The same cannot be said of Clemson.

pps: 2004S, I'll be looking forward to hearing more about the co-ed redneck soccer league. Much potential there.

MC, How did you know that pigs will be the Red Neck League Co-ed Division mascot?
We are gonna try to get them to squeal "GOOOOOOOOAL" if anyone ever scores. Also, anyone know if the Brandi Chastain sports bra comes in fish-net? To save on expenses the RNL is considering them instead of jerseys for the female participants next season.

Okay, guys -- my first and last experiment with the concept of a signature!

2004S --

What did happen to your first post of yesterday afternoon? It was pretty innocuous. As for references to farm animals, they almost always make me more upbeat. Pigs, ducks, chicken, horses. Yes. Upbeat.

lpaf

Mr. Chapindad,

Yes, let's stick to the facts. My comments were in response to generalizations that are made in not only this but other similar topics. That generalization being to place the blame on the coach when young players barely out of their teens leave the program. Seldom is there any fault placed with the players. Personnally, I found college academics difficult enough without being involved with activities outside the classroom. I have the greatest respect for student athletes who can perform above average both on the pitch and in the classroom.

Since I wasn't addressing you and made no reference to you, why assume you and your daughter were being attacked? I use my actual name as a registered member to scsoccer.com. You don't, so how in the world could I know you have a daughter who may or may not have been recruited by USC if I don't know either of your names. Please be assured and understand I am not asking for your name, don't want to know it and actually prefer not to know. In your education at MTC were you taught the universal use of 'YOU' and 'YOUR?' If not then I beg you to read that comment again and when you read my comment 'your child, friend, etc' replace the word 'your’ with the following: (any persons who suggest players leave a team because the coach drives them off). So in regards to facts, please don't assume you can read my comments and take for fact that they are addressed at you personally. You are not the only person who places all responsibility on a coach. It's not all about YOU!

You gave us these details, my totals:

Team (Rank) FR SO JR SR
NC(1)..........7 7 9 8 = 31
FSU(4)........7 7 6 2 = 22
Penn(6).......6 5 7 5 = 23
Tenn(12).....7 5 2 7 = 21
BC(25)........7 6 7 5 = 25

If you put USC in this format

USC .........14 6 8 3 = 31
NC(1).........7 7 9 8 = 31

you find they are very similar to UNC except at the SR class. But geez, it's UNC, Anson Dorrance, the standard for womens collegiate soccer. I would guess also that UNC may give more and better scholarships to their top women soccer players than USC can. But I don't have access to these facts. Do you?

But what if they didn't recruit 14 freshmen and used the average, it would look like this,

USC 7 6 8 3 = 24
FSU (4) 7 7 6 2 = 22

and you can see they compare right there alongside FSU.

So given that your facts don't actually support any point you are trying to make, my response was directed at your comment <<" I would be interested to know why most of the girls leave the program. What I fear is the coach is running off the players in order to upgrade with freshman.">> If JR’s and SR’s can’t compete against the freshmen on their own team, how will they be able to compete against their counterparts on the opposition teams? If you can read my comments without assuming you are being attacked, maybe you can understand my query as to why are coaches often considered to be the reason for players leaving a team. If I had left out the pronoun 'child' in my text would you have taken this personally. Hopefully not.

And finally,two more FACTS. One, NO I don't work for Fox News. Two, NO, I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat, I am lucky enough to be a free-thinking American. But it's funny you ask, I have many friends and acquaintances, some are Republicans, and some Democrats. But what the hell has political party affiliation got to do with soccer. Except, I guess, when you don't lucidly support your argument it's easier to make some type of generalization instead of using the facts. You do it so well.

dh --

I saw a UNC package for women soccer prospects last year and their scholarship offers seem to be quite comparable with the other major colleges. UNC doesn't have to compete for the best players by offering more or better scholarships.

lpaf

lpaf -

What does a typical scholarship provide?

dh

Mark,

I had fun with your post and was attempting to have some fun back. I really do enjoy reading and responding to your posts. I have a very sarcastic sense of humor and never take things personally. To little time in life to worry about such things.

Now back to the discussion. I love to going to the games and I am a VERY big fan of women's sports. I have a lot of personal reason for this belief. Soccer is already a low end sport in this state to the general public and talk shows. The onyl thing lower is women's sports. I would love to see the Carolina program finally take the next step and start winning the big games and not just the cupcakes. And I don't mean the occasional big win but to have a true winning season that includes SEC wins, SEC tournament wins and some NCAA tournament wins. I just want to see more. Clemson has done very well for itself and is well respected for its efforts. I want Carolina to be as good as a Clemson if not better. Let's face it Carolina only has one national championship and is only very good in a couple of sports. People want to come to Carolina now for Track & Field and Baseball. Why can't we add women's soccer to that list? Let's give Columbia another National Champion they can talk about. Beating Charleston Southern every year doesn't shout excitment or make run down to stone and get my tickets early. Let's play and compete againist UNC or DUKE for starters and now I am excited about going to stone to watch a game on Thursday night.

BTW: I started this thread so I guess I have to stay in until the bitter end. And now farm animals are involved. I thought that was illegal in most countries...

dh --

My memory works in overview better than detail, but I think I remember no full scholarships for freshmen unless a member of the US national team. 1/2 scholarship for freshmen starting increasing each year as play time increases. There was a clause addressing increased scholarship funding for early decision to attend UNC. Other information from discussion with an assistant coach included a limit of 4 out of state scholarships per year and a clear message that UNC does not compete for players by bidding up scholarships. I'm sure there are exceptions to all of the above, but my take away was that UNC scouts and recruits the best in the country with a particular emphasis on NC players and that they offer scholarships on par with other colleges, not more or better.

lpaf

dh --

Sorry, I didn't get into specifics about everything provided in a full scholarship, but basically a full ride consists of tuition, fees, room and board, and books. For SC student athletes staying in state I understand that there is frequently a combination of athletic funding and Life/Hope funding cobbled together to cover expenses. I think players going out of state are often given "in state" tuition rates. There are probably a lot of parents out there who have actually been through this and could give more precise information.

lpaf

ps: Chapindad, don't you feel good looking at farm animals? Can't you hear the theme song from Lassie being whistled in the background and yearn to get out and do some wholesome chores? Bale hay for the cows, slop a pig trough or two, muck a stable...

Recent experiences in the area of college scholarships ( not really talking about USC soccer anymore are we?) are similiar to what LPAF outlined.
Out of state schools will generally offer 1st yr players the difference between in state and out of state tuition. Private schools seem to find more sources for financial aid - beyond their soccer scholarships. In state public schools wait until you exhaust other academic and financial needs based options. Then try to stretch their budgets as fas as possible.

Remember - Most schools have around 11 scholarships (not everyone is fully funded). Divide that among 25 players and you already are at less than 1/2 per player. Then
reward the returning p[layers who are leading the team and have already proven themselves and assume less than 1/4 available per incoming freshman. Then assume that there are maybe 1 or 2 special recruits that the coach goes after with a 1/2 scholarship. So now the rest are lucky to get books ($1000 or so).
Sorry to be a wet rag to all those expectant parents out there that hope soccer will pay for college. It won't.
Still sports give a girl focus at achieving goals and also keeps them off the streets - sometimes! So, it it still worth it. Just know what to expect.

In an attempt to do my best Kubby imitation, this is directed at the "attrition", "running off", and large class every year comments.

The Smiths were hired in mid-spring of 2001 after the signing date so who knows who they actually recruited in the 2001 class.
2001 ( 4 of 6 finished or are still there)- Bowie (transfer JR), Jessie Uecker (gone), Ashley Gosnell, Ashley Williams, Jocelyn Meyer (gone), and Stacey Zelek. Two are no longer there. One graduated on time.
2002 - (4 of 8 still playing) - Kimberly Criss, Jackie Welch, Amanda Thurber, Abagail Markham, Stacey Bunchman (still at USC, not playing), Katherine Stokes (gone), Camille Toney (gone), Lindsay Haney (hurt most of career, not playing).
2003 - (5 of 7 still playing) - Jenna Ball, Lauren Skinner, Erin Geldhof, MA Foster, Jessi Swaim, Shelly Hoddeson (gone), Kristen Seglem (?)

So, largest class to this point 8, smallest 6 .
retention rate of 62 percent (13 of 21) which isn't bad in this day and age.

This class of 14 is unusual. The other thing to consider though is that the roster is jumping from 22 to 28 which accounts for the larger recruiting class.

Thanks for the stats. Maybe I will be proven wrong once again.

I would hope that the retention would be higher closer to a 90% rate. I would be curious to understand why these girls left the program. Maybe mocing to 28 players will help in the spread of players across the age groups.

All these figures and stats have my head spinning.... Regarding the female Red Neck players we have in our league,I am trying to advise them of their college choices, if they finish high school. What might be the percentage of colleges interested in females with .75 and lower GPA scores, average 450 SAT scores, who have no more than 2 kids and less than < ; or greater than> 3 boyfriends?

2004S --

I think a subject as important as this one probably deserves its own topic, and maybe its own "Co-Ed High School Soccer" forum on an equal foot with Boys HS Soccer and Girls HS Soccer. Somehow pigtailing (barnyard reference) it onto USC Soccer seems out of place. Plus, most of those familiar with the redneck league from last season never think to look in the College, Pro and International forum. Just a thought.

lpaf

What a jolly good suggestion! SC High School Red Neck Soccer League (RNL for short).

I hate being right. The USC girls did not have a very successful year in the SEC or the tournament. Let's see how many freshman we have next year. They had only 3 seniors on the team and 14 freshman. If we have more than 5 freshman next year then something is wrong....

Later

CD