SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums College, Pro & International Soccer Possible US line up

How about this. A 3-5-2...

GK: Keller
DEF (L-R): Bocanegra, Pope, Onyewu
MID (L-R): Lewis, Reyna, Mastroeni, Donovan, Beasley (with Mastroeni playing as a defensive midfielder)
FOR: Johnson, McBride

If needed, you could take out Lewis, put Beasley on the left, put Donovan out wide on the right and put a Josh Wolff or Clint Mathis as an attacking midfielder with Reyna. Also, why has Taylor Twellman not gotten any love lately?

At some point in time, you have to say, "if they are all healthy, this is my starting 11 when we get to the world cup." Then give them time to play together and gel as a unit. Over the next one or two WCQ, I would expect to see the 11 Coach Arena expects to use in 2006. At the very least, he should have 8 or os solid spots and then rotate players around those spots.

Nobody at the International level plays a 3-5-2. Arena since he has been at the helm has played a 4-4-2 or that formation modified to a degree. So why in the world would he have changed for this game? Pope is injured right now so he is unavailable. Beasley picked up his second yellow card of the qualifying stage against Mexico so he was unavailable.

I think Arena would love to be able to pick out 11 and say that those are my 11. however, that just is not the case. In the next 15 months or so, numerous players will step up and others will fall off. Johnson did not emerge until the last 2 qualifiers of the last stage, around Oct./Nov. Now he has to be considered to be in the top 11 because of his recent run. However, whos to say that this streak continues into next year??

One other thing about a top 11. Arena never used the same starting lineup in any of the World Cup games in 2002. This is one of the biggest reasons for the US success. He was able to adjust the lineup to either suit what he wanted to do tactically on the attacking side or defensive side of the ball. Going into the last Cup, if he would have taken his approach, he would not have been able to make those adjustments in the middle of the tournament. This is just the way I see things from my perspective.

My suggestion was not for this game in particular. I understand Pope's injury and Beasley's yellow card situation. My intent was to figure out how to get the best 11 players on the field. If I remember correctly, for most of the 2002 qualifying and the 2002 World Cup, Arena played a 3-5-2. I remember so clearly because it was the first time I had seen a top level team use this formation. I just think at that level, figure out who your best 11 are and adjust your formation to fit your players. Do not leave a higher quality player off the field just because "everyone else uses a 4-4-2 and so should we".

Why play a 3-5-2 vs. a 4-4-2?
First- the 3 in the back can cover the 2 up top. the 5 in midfield give you numbers up versus the 4. . . plus, if need be, the most defensive midfielder (in our case Mastroeni or a healthy Chris Armas) can drop back and help cover. Also, by having essentially 4 attacking midfielders, it can confuse the 4 defenders as to who to cover.

I just do not see forcing the top 11 US players into a 4-4-2. You have 3 defenders with Pope, Onyewu and Bocenegra but who is the 4th defender if you play a flat back 4? You could bring on Churunderlo (sp?), but then who do you take off-- Mastroeni, McBride (and put Donovan up top). I would never see McBride being taken off for a defender and no one can argue that Churunderlo is better than Mastroeni. So, the US top 11 falls into a 3-5-2.

I totally disagree. Arena played a 4-4-2 in all the games at the WC. The only change I really saw was in Sept 01 against Honduras in DC. I actually attended this game and we had some many injuries that he was forced to change. he played a 3-4-3 that game and the outcome was horrible. we lost to honduras 3-0.

Looking back at the lineups in 2002 and we played started against Portugal like:

Sanneh Pope Agoos Hejduk
Mastroeni
stewart Obrien Beasley
Donavan McBride

Arena employs the 4-4-2 in numerous ways. Sometimes he plays with true wingers, like last night with Ralston and Lewis. At other times, Donavan and Beasley play outwide and have free rain to make runs generally everywhere.

I would say that Arena plays a 4-4-2 90% of the time. And McBride is definitely not as good as you claim. He is in his 30s already and obviously his form has dropped off because he used to be one of Arena's guys.

Well, this debate sparked my curiosity so I went back and looked at each game the US played in the 2002 World Cup. In group play, they did play a 4-4-2, but then in the knockout phase (Mexico and Germany), they played in a 3-5-2. I still think McBride is the best player to be the target up top and allow Johnson, Donovan and Beasley to run off of him. Who else fills that role? Brian Ching?

Donovan is best when he can get the ball in space and can run at defenders either on the flank or in the midfield. He is not good with his back to goal.

So you drop Donovan into the midfield. But since everyone thinks that Reyna is the US's top playmaker, you know he's going to be on the field. I have never been a big fan of Reyna. Both of those guys are more valuable in attacking rather than defending positions and Mastroeni is good going forward if he has the chance so don't stick him in the back. Let him play just behind the central midfielders. Eddie Lewis has earned more of an impact role and he played well on the left against Guatemala and created some chances against Mexico. This let's Beasley play on the right flank. That leaves 3 defenders.

I do retrack my earlier statement that Arena uses primarily a 3-5-2 but when it came to must win games (the knockout stage of the WC) he did switch. Germany played a 4-4-2 and we should have won that game.

i think that dempsey should start in the mid. he is one incredible player. in the guatamala game he comes in in the 90th min. gets a yellow and almost scores. it was a great save by the keeper

First of all voice in the knockout stage against Mexico, you could make a case that the US played a 3-5-2, even at the beginning of the match the commentators had them at a 4-4-2. Reyna played an outside back that game, which he had done with Rangers for half of his club career. In the back with him was Pope, Berhalter, and Sanneh. The midfield consisted of Lewis on the left, Obrien and Mastro in the middle, and Donavon out wide. Wolff and McBride up top. Against Germany, again a 4-4-2 was played with changes being Hejduk as a back with Reyna back in the middle and Donavon up top. Wolff became a sub.

As i stated above, McBride is a situational player and no longer should be considered in the starting eleven. Johnson fills McBride's target role and adds a new dimension- he can play futbol.

Three defenders in international soccer can not cover the amount of space nor can they match up with international front runners. Italy, with better individual defenders, plays with five in the back.

Here is my top 11 (it is a 4-4-2 based on our personnel and not based on "what everyone else is doing", as you have suggested):

Keller/Howard (does it really matter?)

Bocanegra Pope Berhalter/Oguichi/Gibbs? Obrien

Donavan Mastro Reyna Beasley (not lewis)
Johnson Casey?

The positions with question marks are too close too call right now. Casey could easily come off and mathis, twellman, wolff could all be considered. We have a wealth of talent at Centerbacks. Spector is ManU and not far off. Oguchi and Gibbs are not far off. MFs who are not far away include Convey, Martino, Gaven, etc. So like I said before, the top 11 is ever changing, which is a strong point of coach Arena.

Ok, I watched the tapes of the games today. At the beginning of the Mexico game, JP Delecamera says, "the US is not is 4-4-2 but rather in a 3-5-2". They never post a starting line-up nor do they say who is starting where. In the Germany game, they did post a starting line-up
GK: Friedel
MB: Berhalter, Pope, Sanneh
MF: Mastroeni, Hejduk, Lewis, O'Brien, Reyna
F: Donovan, McBride

I think it does matter in goal. No keeper has had the success of Keller. I also think that Arena set himself up to start Keller through the Germany World Cup because he made a mistake by not taking a young GK as the third GK for K/J. Tony Meola had no business going to Korea/Japan. The third GK should have been Tim Howard, Zach Thorton, Kevin Hartman. While at the time, I would have voted for Howard, his performances over the past year (since joining Man U) have been disappointing. I would like to see Kevin Hartman get a shot.

Berhalter does not deserve a spot in the starting 11 especially after what Lewis has done the past few games. Doesn't O'Brien usually play in midfield? While I agree that the talent pool is deepening, at some point in time, Coach Arena needs to identify the top 11 and give them the neccessary games to gel as a unit. You cannot keep the revolving door going through the last WCQ. Also, a 4-5-1 is too defensive of a formation. If you want to try something like that, try it against Trinidad not Mexico. Against Mexico in Mexico City, come out attacking in at least a 4-4-2.

Italy may play 5 in the back after Euro 2004 but in K/J they were defeated by an average S.Korea team in the first knockout stage after a lackluster 1-1-1 in group play in K/J. Their highest goal production was 2 versus Ecuador. In fact, I looked at every Itlay game from K/J and they played a 4-4-2 in every game except Mexico when they opened in a 4-3-3. They actually should have used 5 in the back versus Croatia b/c Croatia defeated Italy 2-1 with the 4-5-1 formation. I guess it would have taken 5 Itlaian defenders to combat that one Croatian forward.


Also, In Euro 2004 (according to www.euro2004.com), Italy played a 4-4-1-1 and did not get out of pool play (0-0 Denmark; 1-1 Sweden; 2-1 Bulgaria). Denmark and Sweden advanced out of that group. In fact, in the final team picture from Euro 2004, the starting 10 field players are 4 backs, 3 midfielders and 3 forwards.

I think this has been my favorite thread in the last three months. Keep it up guys!

From what I understand, JOB played left back for Ajax before the numerous injuries.

I thought that Arena played a 4-2-3-1 (4-5-1) against Mexico in March. Was I mistaken?

You are right.

Reason said that here:

Also, a 4-5-1 is too defensive of a formation. If you want to try something like that, try it against Trinidad not Mexico. Against Mexico in Mexico City, come out attacking in at least a 4-4-2.

I went and read some old stories. Voice you were correct that Arena played a 3-5-2. However, most of the articles I have read said that it resembed more of a 5-3-2 or 4-4-2 because of Reynas and Lewis's roles. Esp. Reyna was in a more of a "hybrid right midfield / Defender role" (as reported by ESPN.com. I believe that Arena moving from a 4-4-2 to whatever he played the rest of the cup was more out of throwing in a wrinkle that the Mexicans did not expect rather than believing that the 3-5-2 is the best formation. Hence, his return to a 4-4-2 since the cup.

I am not sold that Arena needs to pick an 11 and have them play most of the WCQ's together. What if he had done that before 2002? Mastroeni would not have been ready after Armas's injury. Mathis was the poster child for the team going into the Cup, but showed up not fit and also took some small knocks. Had he been exclusively in the 11 for most of WCQ and friendlies, we would have been behind the 8 ball. Plus the following players all started in WC 2002: Friedel, Agoos, Hejduk, Mastroeni, Pope, Sanneh, Obrien, Donovan, Beasley, McBride, Stewart, Reyna, Mathis, Berhalter, Lewis, Wolff. That means that 16 different players started in the Cup. In addition to those 16, the following saw significant minutes: Jones, Moore, Llamosa. You only take 23 players to the Cup, so 19 players saw time. Of the 4 that did not get on the field, 2 were GKs that were not going to play unless Friedel got hurt.

I have not even looked at the different players used for WCQs during that time. I would assume that we never had the same lineup for any of the final 10 WCQs, but i could be wrong. Maybe I will look that up someday. They have plenty of time to gel. They play a friendly or two before they leave normally, 2002 they played Netherlands. Then once over there, they played 1 or 2 closed scrimmages before the Cup started.

I agree that Keller will get the nod, unless he is injured or severely poor leading up to the cup. In that case, Howard would get the start. Howard will be the #1 backup. He is playing under intense pressure, that no other American player has experienced ever.

My point is that if Arena is not going to use the same starting 11 game in and game out in the WC, why use it now? One of the main reasons that the US had as much success as they did can be attributed to Arena's decisions in personnel and tactics. He was able to keep much better teams off balance.