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#74574 12/11/06 07:36 PM
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After watching most of the games this weekend it looks to me that Enzo is still the best player in state. Some other players that I think are very good are: Reel Callison from Lex. U17, Joey Demore from U15 CUFC, and Sebastian Velasquez is giving Enzo a run for his money and is definetly a great player. I would like to see other's opinions on this. Also who do you guy's think is the best goalkeeper in the state from watching this past weekend's games?

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Enzo is my choice...I thought the U17 lex goalie did a great job this weekend

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Yes, I agree with that statement. Both U17 final keepers were in my eyes the best of the weekend.

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Should be a great hs season

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joey demore is overrated he is too cocky of a player there is a kid on cesa 91 premier named ben puetter i think and he has 9 goals and 4 asst in the premier league out of the 14 team goals his team has. i also think sebastian is coming up on enzo as well as enzo's brother alex.

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Maybe because you are Ben Puetter...just maybe...but a great club season and I look forward to high school season this year.

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Ben Puetter is pretty good. The MPSC U-15 goalie was very good for his size, but the third goal scored on him was very unlucky on his part. Also you can't really say the best goalie, because some keepers weren't tested during state, and you might just need to look at stats from that season.

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i appoligize on behave of cesa and Andrew Hyslop my name is benny puetter and this was all a joke. It will not let me delete my post but do not believe what i wrote it is not true.

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Speaking in behalf of the girls: I believe the CESA U-17 Premier team keeper is the best player on the girls side. After her State Cup performance in PK's, she performed on demand. Very technical and makes the right decisions.

Sorry, I don't know her name.

Take it from one who knows.


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GK,

First two posts, right out of the box...both on the same subject. This girl has really caught your eye. Surely someone must know of who you are speaking about. What's her name, where does she go to high school, what colleges are looking at her?


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The goalie's name for CESA u17G premier that Grim Keeper is speaking of is Kendall Maxwell. She plays for T.L. Hanna but I think she played on the field in high school last year. Kendall also came up big with a couple saves in the PK shootout which determined who advanced to the quarters at Regionals this past summer,( against NASA whose goalie was ironically a 89 National Team goalie and also made some great saves). Kendall is a great keeper. Once again, she came through big time in the clutch and helped to save the day this past Sunday! (don't know what colleges she's looking at or are looking at her; quite a few, I'd imagine)

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Thanks.

W&E doesn't play her in goal?
a) She must be a very good field player as well.
b) TL Hanna must have another pretty good keeper.


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1. Enzo Martinez
2. Preston Myers
3. Sebastian Velasquez

No Particuler Order


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Three great choices. If they are all having a great game at the same time, they are fun to watch

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Best player in the state?

After state cup, this should be easy. What are the best teams (champions)? And who is the best player on that best team?

Now, is "best" the player that scores? The player that plays the whole match of every match? The keeper who makes a brilliant save?

And we seem to feel this is a discussion of best MALE. . .


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Well it's obvious the best girls' team in the state is the CESA u18G Premier. I'll leave it up to someone who's closer to the team to say who the best player or players is or are. But when you're talking about a team, I'm not sure why it's really important to single out who the best player is.

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I am fairly sure that you are all wrong and the best players/teams are in the U13 or U14 gauging from the threads in the board.

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sbs:

Thanks for the info on Kendall Maxwell. That pretty much makes my point about players that are tested at higher levels. They perform under pressure. I bet if you look back further she has had similar perfromances in big games or big situations. Thank you, I have not had the opportunity to see her play but I heard others speak very highly of her. I would be interested as well to see what colleges are in the running.

Did Hurst say that she was not the keeper on her HS team? That would truly be a shame.

Now for the best player in the State argument: We all know that soccer is a team sport and I don't think you can take a state cup weekend to determine who the best player is. You can however take the play of the players in the running and determine how consistant they are. Does the scorer score consistantly no matter what the competition? Does the midfielder control the midfield consistantly? Does the keeper make saves consistantly?

I believe you determine the best player by how they perform in big game situations and are they consistant in their performance. One weekend does not make you consistant.

From one who knows


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sbs said she played in the field.


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My mistake.

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Grim Keeper—

My post was intended to provoke—and it seems a few are right on track—I think "best player," especially in soccer, is truly difficult—Surround individual players with different teammates and see a different player—

I do think some of the best players in the state are girls—that was part of my post also—(comparing girls within girls soccer—not comparing a girl to a boy head-to-head, of course)

I also agree about performance being consistent—along with how a player shines against the best competition—

I know in high school soccer we get players designated as "great" who pile up goal totals against very weak teams—That's why we need to see soccer played and not look at stats—especially since defenders get left out of the stat race—


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purple,
I agree. I hate it when there are best player discussions
and considerations. The stats (goals, etc.) listed for offensive soccer players are given too much pub. Like in football when offensive lineman are most often left out of the discussions, so too are soccer defenders. It is a team sport and individual recognitions should be, but won't be, left to a minimum.
So many times in this forum we read of the star-like quality of high school or club players who for what ever reason allow their 'special skills' to keep them from being a total team player, and the team suffers as a result.
There should be no best player anywhere. I know that is an absurd statement, but I am famous for that.

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I echo the statement.... I think we should comment on which was the best team you SAW at state cup. Capitalize SAW because like me I am sure not everyone saw every game.

For example I saw DSC play CESA in the U16 in the final and thought it was fairly even but did not see them play in the semis. So it would be hard to comment on the age group.

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I didn't see this post so forgive my late reply. Kendall Maxwell does not play on the field. I'm not sure where sbs got that from. We had two quality keepers last year (Kelli Whitfield, Anderson University) and they split halves and led us to our best season in history. I've seen lots of hs keepers and I speak sincerely when I say i'd never want another. Praise the good Lord for two more years of Kendall.

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W&E, you're loaded this year. I'm moving over to the Girls HS soccer forum and singing your praises!


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Hurst66: Loaded doesn't begin to describe it! Odds on favorite for winning the state championship!

Speaking of keepers, in addition to those mentioned, here are some wonderful keepers in the state:
  • Caroline Clarke: Keeper, U18G CESA Premier (Greenwood Christian), ODP-89 Keeper
  • Sarah Delap, Keeper, U18G CESA Premier (Riverside)
  • Caitlin Williams, Keeper, U18 CESA Challenge (Pendleton), ODP-89 Keeper
  • Cricket Wise, Keeper, U18 CASC (???), ODP-90 Keeper
  • Erica Deahl, Keeper, U18G CUFC Elite (Lexington)
  • Taylor Rutland, Keeper, U17G CUFC Elite (Lexington), ODP-90 Keeper
  • Curren Smith, Keeper, U16G CESA Premier, (Mauldin), ODP-90 Keeper
  • Katie Tate, Keeper, U16G CESA Premier, (???), ODP-91 Keeper, Region III Pool Keeper

My apologies to anyone I overlooked...

By the way...Laura Armstrong, formerly of GFC and now with USC, has set the bar pretty high in terms of great keepers!

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Great list, Chico—And since this thread has drifted away from ONE player—The U18G keeper combo in combination with the defense on that squad—Top notch!—


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Just as I figured - no mention of any offensive lineman again.

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Well—some of my references are TOUGHER than offensive linemen—:)

and they are occasionally offensive—does that count?


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Speaking of Keepers my daughter's CESA U-12 Premier team is blessed with an excellant one, Allison Harrill.

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another keeper to look at is Morgan Hert of the CESA U-15 Premier girls. She had a shutout all state cup and I believe in on the 92 ODP team. She is also going to Mauldin High School.

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Again, can all of these players be considered in the context of a team? Teams win games, not individuals.
Which club teams played the best team ball this season and which high school teams will do the same next spring?

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I said I THOUGHT Kendall played on the field last year because that's what I thought I had heard. Obviously, I was wrong. Sorry about that. Wasn't deliberately trying to misinform.

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Oh well..........

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>>[Again, can all of these players be considered in the context of a team? Teams win games, not individuals.
Which club teams played the best team ball this season and which high school teams will do the same next spring?<<


Well...the CESA U18G Premier team is ranked in the top 20 nationally and could be argued to be better than that (they beat #6 Jacksonville soundly, 3-0, in Premier League play.) Two of these keepers, Caroline Clarke and Sarah Delap, both played for that team and were an integral part (along with the field players, of course) of their league-leading defense. Both are easily Division I-level players.

What high school teams will play the best ball next spring? It's already been stated that T.L. Hanna's girl team is loaded for bear in 4-A with outstanding talent. I think the Irmo girls team is going to be very strong in 4-A as well; the formation of CUFC and its elite teams I believe will pay dividends for that program. Riverside as always will be incredible in 3-A; Sarah Delap will give them a huge edge as she did last year.

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Look at the top club teams, follow those players to their high schools, and watch those high schools succeed. The larger the school, the more this is true. At the smaller schools, A and AA, ANY club experience by the players tends to bump results. As one who works with high school soccer, I say "Thank you, club soccer"—:)


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All,

I did a quick count of CESA girls premier and challenge players who are currently attending Mauldin High and it is between 18 - 20. This includes the U15 - U18 teams and doesn't include any the girls playing in the CESA HS league or with other clubs. I believe they will pickup 10 girls from the U15 premier and challenge teams as freshman this year. Now the question is can 2nd year coach Kevin Czar make these girls into State Champions.

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Maybe we should bump this to Girls Soccer, but this would be interesting to do for the girls teams—I know Riverside and Eastside have quality players coming from the U18G Premier team—And both have benefited historically from club—


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fan,

I wouldn't load all the pressure onto Coach Czar's shoulders. It not only takes a lot of talent....it takes a lot of good fortune to go all the way. Need the right bounces, need to avoid injury....maybe even need a break or two from the officials.

If Mauldin is ranked in the top four in 4A by the end of the season (and I'm sure they will be), the coach has done his job. Enjoy the ride....should be a great season for the Lady Mavs.

(PS - If the girls soccer team is as dominant as the girls x-country team, we won't even have to play the season out. They wouldn't require any luck!)


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anyone know where are the CESA girls going to college next year?

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I for one am very excited about all the conversation about the excellent keepers we have in the State ( Future Leaders). I also understand how important the back line is to a keepers success. They derserve much more credit than they get. I would like to see the all area players that are selected by the local papers be given to those who truly deserve alot of credit(Defenders and Keepers).

Does anyone care to rank some of these players? Do we even know their names. A tough task to say the least I bet.

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Quote:

anyone know where are the CESA girls going to college next year?




As of now the following, as I understand it, applies to the U-18G CESA premier team with respect to commitments (verbal at this time in most cases....)

Appalachian State - 3
Marshall - 1
Presbyterian College - 1
University of South Carolina - 2
College of Charleston - 1
Clemson - 1

In addition there are two that are rostered that are presently college freshman....

University of North Carolina Charlotte - 1
University of South Carolina - 1

That accounts for 11 of the rostered 18, 3 of the remaining 7 are playing up one year, and the remaing 4 have yet to decide....

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sbs, no harm, no foul!

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both keepers in the u-17 final game, were excellent. But i think Greg for CUFC is definately one of the best

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Quote:


As of now the following, as I understand it, applies to the U-18G CESA premier team with respect to commitments (verbal at this time in most cases....)

Appalachian State - 3
Marshall - 1
Presbyterian College - 1
University of South Carolina - 2
College of Charleston - 1
Clemson - 1

In addition there are two that are rostered that are presently college freshman....

University of North Carolina Charlotte - 1
University of South Carolina - 1

That accounts for 11 of the rostered 18, 3 of the remaining 7 are playing up one year, and the remaing 4 have yet to decide....





Interesting data...several notes...

This appears to be more players going to Division I schools than in past years...not surprising I guess when you look at the team's national ranking.

Fascinating that Furman didn't get anyone.

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Furman is too expensive. A 25% scholarship still leaves a ton of money due. Nice environment.......but what, 3x the cost of Clemson or USC?

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You're absolutely right that Furman is expensive -- it's just that in the past I remember Furman as typically picking up some players from GFC and SGU...that and the fact that it's a Division I program in Greenville...

How much more expensive is Furman than PC or UNC-Charlotte?

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I believe an uncommitted CESA U18G is considering FU—I also think "cost" is tricky—Many expensive schools such as FU are very aggressive about finding money for students—Comparing school to school is difficult—


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Okay...doing a few minutes of looking I get about $36K for tuition and room and board. [Link]

Huge endowment! [Bob Fuzy, ex-GFC president, is really raking it in!]

So I guess a major question is whether they have a fully funded women's soccer program.

Interesting stuff...

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I believe Furman recruited more SC players under the previous coach. The current coach seems to have recruited more northeast players. Could be because he is from up north to some degree.

Talking with some folks I know in the U-17 ranks of CESA there has been very little contact from Furman if any.

They are letting a lot of good players with premier experience go to others schools in the State. Premier players in SC should be getting contacted early by Furman. Other schools are certainly making contacts. Newberry, Winthrop, Francis Marion and Erskine to name a few.

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"Other schools are certainly making contacts. Newberry, Winthrop, Francis Marion and Erskine to name a few."

Problem is those schools aren't in the same league are they? If you are a bigtime player in SC the schools that may be interesting to you are USC, Clemson, Furman. After that....you have C of C and Winthrop.

Quite a drop to the other schools.

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Daddy,

I really don't think Winthrop would be interested in scheduling Newberry. The top four teams in the South Atlantic Conference (D2) each year could give ANY team in the Big South (D1) a run for their money. The SAC often gets three teams into D2 NCAA championships. The Big South advances only their conference tournament champion into the D1 NCAA championships, where they generally get hammered by an ACC school in Round 1.

Not as big of a "drop off" as you think.


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Big Daddy:

The point still remains, Why is Furman not contacting these premier players. I only mentioned some of the smaller schools who are contacting these players. I did not mention that Clemson and USC have contacted these players as well.

Where is FURMAN???? Are they out there???? Are they just a northern school playing in the south?????

Just asking.

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I am puzzled how anyone on this message board knows whether or not any colleges are or are not contacting recruits. My daughter has just experienced the recruiting season; she is a senior heading to college to play soccer next year. We learned a few things.

(1) Coaches are under pressure to recruit and they pass along that pressure (This is the worst part). We are often asking 16 and 17 year olds to make BIG decisions—when they grow up and change a great deal in that last year of high school.
(2) The coaches we have had contact with are almost without exception truly good people who are working very hard for their colleges and their programs.
(3) Recruiting is a network. Club coaches and college coaches help each other target players. In other words, if coaches are not contacting players, it is possibly for two reasons: The player isn't the quality the coach wants or the coach is aware that the player is not interested.
(4) Players are part of the contacting process. Letting a coach know you are interested is important.
(5) Coaches miss players and players are some times wrong about where they want to play (or if they want to play at all). This is complicated.

Are our state schools aggressively keeping our top young women in state to play at our fine programs? I would say not nearly enough.

But I think few of us know who these coaches are contacting—and I doubt we can suggest that any coach/program is NOT contacting.


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Here is an interesting question, at least to me in terms of the recruiting process.

Unlike football or basketball where if your kid is good enough to be recruited to play at Clemson, USC, Furman, Wofford.......they basically get a full ride. In soccer however scholarship money gets pooled in with other sources of scholarships to put together a package.

So how as a parent are you supposed to know if the Furman coach even knows you exist, let alone have interest. And if there is interest......what kind of package can be put together for your son or daughter? And when is it appropriate to be doing this?

I would hesistate to encourage my child to chase a Duke or a Wake Forest or a Furman education/soccer career unless there was a reasonable probability of a good package.

Advice I've heard in the past is the best way to do this is pick the school you want to go to and flood that coach with interest. Well, if that school is Furman and the package is insufficient.....as a parent have I done my kid a disservice by encouraging them to chase something that wasn't realistic?

Point to this is.......given the inadequate amount of scholarships available for soccer.....my guess is that coaches at schools like Furman need to be a lot more proactive with potential recruits than would the coach as Clemson or USC.

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P&Y,

Great post. Thanks.....I agree with most of what you wrote.
For boys.......in between Furman, Clemson, USC, Winthrop, C of C, and Wofford......we have approx 15 full scholarships available per year (9.9 scholarships /4 years * 6 schools). Assuming those scholarships are offered as 1/2 scholarships. there should be about 30 boys getting 1/2 scholarship per year.

How many of those kids are instate? And if limited....why? Not good enough? Or coach wants to recruit from CA, TX or NY?

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I agree about money; that is a key issue. In girls soccer, most colleges are COUNTING on academic money. And the expensive colleges are at a real disadvantage unless the recruit has $$$ from other sources. But I believe the bigger programs count on girls wanting to come. This is a much different world that guys sports. Ultimately, I think this is where you see how the world is not completely fair. The elite female athletes still will not see $$$ for college or a career as often as elite males, right?


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Why is this? Don't girls get an extra 3 scholarships for soccer? With Title 9 I don't see how the girls get shorted.

Not saying they don't.....just don't knwo how thats possible in the very quantifiable world of sports, scholarships, and gender equity.

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Market forces—people would still rather see male athletes in college and professional sports. This is a reality. In the big picture, many fine female athletes are being ignored while many, many marginal male athletes get chance after chance to play college and pro sports.

I'm not complaining, but observing. Having a daughter who is an athlete and a wife who was an elite athlete, it does seem unfair.

Even our girls teams have male coaches more often than not.


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If you talk of the professional ranks I agree. But college? I'd say the opposite. There are more, good boy players chasing fewer scholarships. It is easier for a girl soccer player to get athletic scholarship money than it is boys.

Title 9 gives teeth to it....

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Maybe narrowly with soccer programs—but I doubt the "easier" part. But I was really talking BIG picture and all sports. So I did wander. Females do not anything like college football, however.

Title IX is bureaucracy—reality is a little different. Many things look even on paper.

And I should add—I have NOT seen a son go through this process; so take my view for what it is worth.


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There are infinetely more boys playing AAU basketball than girls.....and yet just as many girls get scholarships to play basketball as boys, right? So I would say its less competitive for a girl to earn a bball scholarship than a boy, just as it is with soccer.

Go watch a middle school basketball game and watch the boys games versus the girls games. There is nowhere near the depth of talent on the girls end of things.....

No doubt football makes dollar for dollar spending impossible. But it would be interesting.....fascinating even (with apologies to Chico) to compare average spending in the ACC if you threw out the top sport for both boys and girls.

My guess is without football......I would be shocked to see equal spending. My guess is it would be weighted towards the girls.

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In 2001:
  • 41.5% of all high school athletes were female.
  • 42% of all college athletes were female.
  • 32% of recruitment funds were spent on females.
  • Over 56% of college students are female.


I've heard those that make the argument that it's easier to get an athletic scholarship if you're female. I've also heard those that make the argument that male soccer players in the United States aren't our best male athletes because the best male athletes play football and basketball.

It has always seemed to me that the following was true
  • [Micro-View] On average it's easier for a United States female soccer player to get a soccer-related athletic scholarship than a male soccer player.
  • [Macro-View] The average United States female soccer player ranks higher in terms of same-gender athleticism than the average male soccer player.

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Chico,

Again, I wonder how much of the statistics are skewed by football. So again, take 1 school....Clemson or USC and determine their athletic budget. Subtract football....then determine average amount per athlete based on gender.

Microview: agreed.
Macroview a: regarding best athletes playing sports other than soccer I agree in general. However, I would disagree at the highest levels. I would not say that Claudio Reyna is less athletic than....Raymond Felton.
Macroview b: agree in principle. woman soccer players in general rank higher in the hierarchy of female athletes than men do in the hierarchy of male athletics.

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I've always felt the easiest team sport for a female athlete, with "above average" (I didn't say "great") athleticism, to get an athletic scholarship to a D1 school is field hockey.

Chico, if you could pull the facts I'd love to see them. Looking for the number of HS girls playing field hockey in the US and the number of Division 1 colleges offering the sport.

It is so much easier to get a ride in field hockey than it is in soccer.


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I would have said Crew/Rowing.

/my two cents

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OK—if anyone on the message board wants to argue that we have somehow started treating females equally with males—go ahead—it doesn't happen. Maybe we can make ourselves feel better with numbers and such, but life is still sexist.

Now, are there more males attempting sports than females? Yes! What I think is interesting and worth considering is how much BIOLOGY and ENVIRONMENT are involved in this.

Do boys NATURALLY aspire to be athletic or are they socialized to do so? And are girls NATURALLY less likely to want to pursue sports?

Even though this discussion is in Club Soccer, let me offer a high school example.

When I started coaching high school soccer, I started a girls program. We had NINE girls that first season. The boys team had some success in my first years—14-5 one season, 15-4 the next. The boys interest soared.

Now at the same school, the girls program has been highly ranked and successful for the past three years while the boys program has floundered some. In this town, girls are playing soccer like mad. Numbers for girls are UP.

OK—I would argue that sports is naturally more "male," but when females see a REASON to participate, things even out some. At the college and pro levels, the REASON has not caught up for females; males see a reason to be athletic in college and pros daily.

Socially, females are not rewarded or encouraged for athleticism as males are.


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>>[purpleandyellow] OK—if anyone on the message board wants to argue that we have somehow started treating females equally with males—go ahead—it doesn't happen. Maybe we can make ourselves feel better with numbers and such, but life is still sexist.<<

Okay...perhaps a bit more explanation of what these numbers mean is in order...

  • 41.5% of all high school athletes were female.

    Although more than half of high school students are female, only 41.5% of high school athletes are female.

  • 42% of all college athletes were female.

    Although 56%+ of college undergraduates are female, only 42% of college athletes are female.

  • 32% of recruitment funds were spent on females.

    Although 42% of all college athletes are female, only 32% of the money being spent on recruiting is spent on females. Morever, although 56% of college undergraduates are female, only 32% of the money being spent on recruiting is spent on females.

  • Over 56% of college students are female.


There are other "numbers" often bandied about -- for example, the fact that it is estimated by some partisan groups that over 80% of all colleges are substantially out of compliance with Title IX -- but the simple facts above pretty much state the case.

Respectfully, it's difficult to make a case based on anecdotal evidence alone -- after all, someone somewhere always has a case in which they can "prove" whatever the heck they want to prove. Thus, sometimes it's nice to spend ten minutes getting some background data and facts to buttress an argument.

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Big Daddy: As an intellectual undertaking, I understand the desire to separate football and evaluate numbers. I don't know how to do it -- and regardless of the fact that 80%+ of college football programs lose money I think you'll come back to the "status" argument made earlier.

But as a practical exercise, removing football from a debate concerning athletic spending seems akin to removing the meat from one of those huge fast food burgers and doing a nutrition analysis -- sure, you can do it -- but in the end it doesn't matter because the cholesterol and saturated fats laden slab of meat is pretty integral to most folks concept of what a "burger" is -- and football spending is pretty integral to most people's concept of what "athletic spending" is.

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Sorry, Chico—I was NOT referring to your info—I actually think your data are very useful.

I should have said something about Title IX making us feel better because it forces people to show fairness on paper—Does that make more sense?

Again, keep sending your data—please! No slam intended on your input here. I thought your data helped my point, in fact.

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Chico......making me hungry!


Kids play sports because they find it fun. Eliminate the fun and soon you eliminate the kid.
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other than the fact that the topic is supposed to be best player in the state.

I have historically (some may say histerically) tried to to fight the 800 pound gorilla when it comes to football and scholarships.

But I am not going to touch it this time. This time I would suggest that equality should be achieved with at minimum american born students. I recent paying taxes for schools and having the athletics departments go to Brazil or Lithuania to get a player. Most do not even finish the school and it is unfairly putting a student-athlete just as capable at a disadvantage.

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But we all love soccer on this board so inevitably things need to roll back to it.

The fact is that girls teams get something like 3 or 4 more scholarships than boys. "Lesser" boys sports like soccer pay the price for football being the 800 pound gorilla.

Merry Christmas all!!!!!!

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Random thoughts about what has been discussed in this post.
1. I tend to agree that it is easier for female athletes to get athletic scholarships. I have know girls that rtan 25 minute 5k's in high school that got money to run in college. Just in ase you didn't know, 25 minutes is not very good.
2. Maybe things aren't equal between the sexes but title IX has made a difference. See above. Add to that the fact that many male athletes have lost the opportunity to play in college because their teams have been dropped (I am in the category. My school dropped men's soccer after my freshman year to comply with title IX. So if I seem bitter, get over it. Schools such as UCLA have even dropped men's sports or the team has had to find a way to fund themselves.
3. I have seen females not keep the grades they needed for academic scholarships yet the continued to get the scholarship so they wouldn't change their major. Anything to do with this post? Maybe not, but yes I am bitter because I put myself through school since I did not want to transfer (remember dropped soccer program).
4. You don't have to look at just middle school basketball to see the differences between girls and boys. When downtown soccer existed, the boys teams (around U15-16) would go to Clemson and scrimmage the girls. The players I knew said that it was not much of a challenge for them (the boys that is). My 10 year old son has made comments about how slow even the U11-12 developmental girls game is. I used to be a semi-regular at the Atlanta Beat games. Maybe went down for 5 or so a year. It was a chance to see soccer and maybe do some stuff in Atlanta but overall it was very mediocre. And to think people throughout the world say the MLS is not very good. Finally, along these lines, I watched about 5 minutes of the first WNBA game before I fell asleep.
5. Did I read the post wrong that said Claudio Reyna is not an inferior athlete to Raymond Felton? I guess it is all how you define athlete. All I know is that if I was going to play a pickup game in ANY sport (minus soccer) I would choose Raymond over Claudio any day of the week. It wouldn't matter if I even knew the object of the game, if it had something to do with sports and athletics Claudio would even be way down on my list of soccer players to choose. Before anyone questions how much I know about Claudio, I have followed his career since he graduated HS. Before he started at UVA, he was on team that toured the country. When the team visited Greenville, my parents hosted Claudio and another player.

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So Title IX has forced the horribly unfair situation that favors males (historically) to be slightly less unfair (again, look at the numbers Chico provided)? I know some males have suffered a "loss" by programs being dropped—look at wrestling. But those instances can never make up for the lost opportunities for decades women have suffered simply because they are female.

It is a matter of timing. I would never support males losing opportunities so females could have opportunities; that is a perversion of the intent. BUT we are still not even close to the field being level. Again, that may be because females will never want an equal number of chances—or it could be the deck is attacked against them socially.


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I realize that this could be construed as somewhat harsh; so take it not as a response to anything posted here but instead as a cautionary tale.

Sometimes I like looking up words...here's one that sprang to mind recently:

Mysogyny: Misogyny is an exaggerated aversion towards women. Compared with anti-woman sexism, misogyny is usually regarded as directed against women by some men, though women can also harbor misogynistic views. In feminist theory, misogyny is recognised as a political ideology similar to racism or anti-Semitism, existing to justify and reproduce the subordination of women by men. The etymology of misogyny comes from the Greek and means to hate (misein) woman (gyne). [Link]

Here's an interesting exercise. Substitute race in place of gender in some of these Title IX discussions and see how they read. I can remember growing up in a racist environment in which I heard about all of the breaks that some of "them" got, the jobs and opportunities that went to some of "them" instead of "us", and even how watching "them" play sports wasn't as exciting (in this case because "they" lacked discipline).

Title IX is an attempt to treat over half of our population fairly. It is not a "quota" system; because if it were we'd have a lot more money and scholarships available for female population. Instead, it is a system that attempts to make sure that federally-supported organizations don't overly discriminate against over half of our population. Please note the term "overly."

I appreciate that some people don't like watching females compete. Then again, there are some people that don't like watching the MLS because the quality of play is so much below the EPL. There are some people that don't like watching college football because the quality of play is so much below the NFL. There are many people who prefer college basketball to the NBA, not because of the skill of the players, but because of the style of play.

But given the fact that 80%+ of college football programs lose money, and that 33%+ of Division I-A college football programs lose money, trying to make an argument about audience with respect to college sports is always going to be weak. The simple fact is that like high schools, colleges are for the most part government supported and athletics are shaped not by the potential audience but by the manner in which we wish to shape society.

Merry Christmas...

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Bingo and bravo, Chico—Perceptive and a great addition to this discussion.


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Chico,

Don't kid yourself.....thanks for clearly insulting me and others with your namecalling. Merry Christmas indeed. You should be ashamed of yourself.

This thread started out talking about the states best players, migrated to where they were going to school and who was recruiting them, then on to why Furman allegedly wasn't recruiting the states best U18 players, then on to costs, the recruiting process and matching up players and schools. In a pretty good post Purple and Yellow introduced the topic of gender inequity. I responded and all cain broke loose.

Not sure that this is a topic that will ever be debated on an internet forum rationally or unemotionally. Smug namecalling only ratchets up the emotions.....

My 7th grade son just got done studying John Locke (amongst others) and I helped him get ready for the test he had a few days before break. It was interesting...the only role of government, Locke believed, was to ensure that the natural rights of man (and woman) were protected.

Our debate wasn't about college athletics in general, or funding in particular. Its about soccer, and college scholarships. Period. And the facts.....are that girls have appreciably more opportunity than boys to get college scholarships. And the reason for this.....is an
attempt on the part of society to engineer a solution, a remedy as it were, for past wrongs.

If fairness is the question, is this fair?

Football is the love of America. We can cry and complain about their 3rd stringers on full rides while our starters sit there with a 1/4 scholarship.....but given the popularity of soccer in America we're lucky we get what we get. USC pulls......85,000 to a football game? How many for a soccer game?

Fairness can't be had in an apples and oranges world. If my daughter goes to Harvard and I spend 40K on her for school and my son goes to York Tech and I spend 1K per year on him and both are happy and both are doing what they wanted to do......have I been a fair parent?

The fact that America spends a fortune on football shouldn't be the justfication for unfairly treating male soccer players.

The fact that woman HAVE been artifically limited over the last 100 years.....cannot be undone by giving out 3-4 additional soccer scholarships per year.

We cannot compare football and soccer. We can only compare soccer to soccer.

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My sons CESA team is looking to do an Ireland-England trip this summer. I was doing a little internet research on one fo the stops they were doing (an English University) and reading their website.

No University sports......only Club sports. The equivalent of IM or inter-fraternity leagues.

Why in America.....should higher education subsidize athletics at all?

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>>[Big Daddy] Why in America.....should higher education subsidize athletics at all?<<

That's a great question. I personally think that we should take all sports out of public education spending and go to a club model.

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[Preface: Great debate! I've tried to address what appears to be the factual basis in this debate. I understand that substituting sexism for racism is wrought with emotional overtones for many -- but the fact is that both arise from the same basic human traits and both in my opinion are wrong.]

>>[Big Daddy] Our debate wasn't about college athletics in general, or funding in particular. Its about soccer, and college scholarships. Period. And the facts.....are that girls have appreciably more opportunity than boys to get college scholarships. And the reason for this.....is an
attempt on the part of society to engineer a solution, a remedy as it were, for past wrongs.<<


What I don't accept is your fundamental premise that you can discuss soccer with respect to college scholarships outside of college scholarships for all sports. It seems to me to be a fundamentally silly point of view that you can somehow separate different sports and ask for "fairness" or "equality" and disregard everything else going on within the athletic department of a college.

>>If fairness is the question, is this fair?<<

Of course it is, because you fundamentally can't attempt to redefine the problem of "fairness" to a single sport while ignoring the spending of the athletic program of a college overall. To do so is absurd and self-serving...surely you see that?

>>The fact that America spends a fortune on football shouldn't be the justfication for unfairly treating male soccer players.<<

Of course it should given that "America" in this defintion are state and federal governments that fund a portion of these "academic" institutions. Trying to somehow eliminate "football" (or basketball, or baseball, etc.) from the equation means that you inherently make the decision that some types of "unfairness" or "inequality" are okay.

>>The fact that woman HAVE been artifically limited over the last 100 years.....cannot be undone by giving out 3-4 additional soccer scholarships per year.<<

Let's see -- since Title IX was passed female participation in sports at the high school level has gone from 1 in 27 in 1972 to 1 in 2.5 in 2002. It would appear to me that there have been some fundamental changes wrought by trying to increase the gender equity with respect to athletic spending in our universities.

>>We cannot compare football and soccer. We can only compare soccer to soccer.<<

Fundamentally untrue, as much of this thread demonstrates. We can compare anything to anything. Of course, the question is whether the comparison has merit. You are attempting to make the argument that we should eliminate certain male-only sports-related spending and take into account only inter-gender spending within one or more sports. While I certainly understand the basis of your argument, I don't and can't agree with it.

If you want to advance the argument that the NCAA should have rules that allow universities more flexibility in terms of individual programs, I have no issue with that. If you want to advance the argument that universities should give out the same number of scholarships for men's and women's soccer, I have no issue with that. If you want to advance the argument that public education spending shouldn't be spent on sports, I have no issue with that. However, I do have an issue with the argument that we should exempt certain male-dominated sports spending from the overall drive toward increasing equity within college athletic departments in some type of "college athletic spending apartheid" theory.

Fundamentally, here's what my definition of "fairness" is. I think in our system today that our best athletes should have a proportionally equal chance to participate and receive proportionally equal money for participating at government-subsidized institutions. Thus, if a young Terrell Owens or Randy Moss want to play football or soccer, they should have an equal chance to participate and receive funding regardless of the sport they choose as does a young Cheryl Miller or Mia Hamm. Anything else would appear to me to be fundamentally unfair.

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Since there is a much greater demand for the product of college football in this country than for other college sports, doesn't it make sense that there would be more opportunities in college football? It seems to me that this is a matter of supply meeting demand, not a matter of fairness. Is it unfair that there are more job opportunities in industries where there is greater market demand?

So shouldn't the question be about equal opportunity regardless of gender in all sports? Should women be given equal opportunity in the high demand sports such as football? I think the problem here is that the public is gender specific in their demand for sports products. For example, men's professional and college basketball are in much higher demand than are the female versions. For this to change, the public's perceptions and spending habits will have to change. There is no doubt that this has happened to a great degree since Title IX. There are many more college and professional sports opportunities for women than there were 34 years ago. But there is still not equal opportunity in terms of financial benefit.

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Coach P,

My fairness issue is strictly within the sport. If you have a mens team and a womans team....they should be equally funded.

Football and soccer are different animals.

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"What I don't accept is your fundamental premise that you can discuss soccer with respect to college scholarships outside of college scholarships for all sports. It seems to me to be a fundamentally silly point of view that you can somehow separate different sports and ask for "fairness" or "equality" and disregard everything else going on within the athletic department of a college."

Chico, you are thinking too narrowly, if you want to use this line of logic. You want to compare gender based spending in sports and not look at it on a sport by sport basis. Then I ask......why would you separate sports based scholarships from academic or needs based scholarships?

These are colleges and universities, right? The objective of scholarships is to provide access to an education. Therefore, evaluating the awarding of scholarships based on gender.....solely on the basics of athletics is silly. If girls makeup 52% of the college population and receive 52% of total scholarship dollars, isn't that at a top level what fairness is?

If it isn't reasonable to look at a soccer to soccer comparison...then lets look at the student population as a whole as it relates to scholarships.

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I'm also going to ask you to watch your language. You have used words like misogynist, racist, sexist, apartheid...and to a far lesser degree used insulting language like calling something silly, simply because they have a different perspective than you do.

I can use words too........how about arrogant, hypocritical, narrowminded, intolerant and intellectually reckless.

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>>[Coach P] Since there is a much greater demand for the product of college football in this country than for other college sports, doesn't it make sense that there would be more opportunities in college football? It seems to me that this is a matter of supply meeting demand, not a matter of fairness. Is it unfair that there are more job opportunities in industries where there is greater market demand?<<

If we were talking about professional sports, or even private corporate sports (e.g., clubs), then I of course totally agree that supply and demand dictate the opportunity, i.e., the supply of athletes has to be proportional to the demand for market-based revenue.

But of course we're not talking about professional sports; we're talking about academic institutions that receive federal and state funding. We're talking about institutions that by mandate are open to all and offer opportunities to all in multiple arenas.

>>So shouldn't the question be about equal opportunity regardless of gender in all sports? Should women be given equal opportunity in the high demand sports such as football? I think the problem here is that the public is gender specific in their demand for sports products. For example, men's professional and college basketball are in much higher demand than are the female versions. For this to change, the public's perceptions and spending habits will have to change. There is no doubt that this has happened to a great degree since Title IX. There are many more college and professional sports opportunities for women than there were 34 years ago. But there is still not equal opportunity in terms of financial benefit.<<

Again, if you want to spin off certain programs from universities and make those private profit and loss entities, then I'm all for it and believe that any such entity should operate based on the laws of supply and demand. Of course, the vast majority of athletic departments run deficits -- so this is only going to work for a few big programs.

But here's where I see a fundamental fairness issue lurking. If we're awarding scholarships to help student-athletes get an education, then it would seem to me that those scholarships should be apportioned based on the percentage of the student body of the university.

The theory of trying to erect a wall of "sports-apartheid" between some programs within an athletic department was proposed and went no where -- because it's quite apparent to a majority of people in this country that you shouldn't discriminate against your mother, sister, and/or daughter.

To put this as simply as possible: if a male athlete is in the top 1% (or whatever) of all male athletes, and a female athlete is in the top 1% (or whatever) of all female athletes, then their ability to get financial aid to become a student-athlete at a college should be the same. Giving a group of people who choose a relatively unpopular sport (e.g., soccer versus football) an advantage over athletes in more popular sports, male or female, seems like the wrong thing to do and the wrong message to send in our institutions of higher learning.

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>>[Big Daddy] "What I don't accept is your fundamental premise that you can discuss soccer with respect to college scholarships outside of college scholarships for all sports. It seems to me to be a fundamentally silly point of view that you can somehow separate different sports and ask for "fairness" or "equality" and disregard everything else going on within the athletic department of a college."

Chico, you are thinking too narrowly, if you want to use this line of logic. You want to compare gender based spending in sports and not look at it on a sport by sport basis. Then I ask......why would you separate sports based scholarships from academic or needs based scholarships?<<


Not a bad point at all. The issue that I see is that you have three categories of aid: merit-based academic, merit-based athletic, and needs-based academic. Lumping all three together somewhat obviates the motivation behind each, e.g., if you have a tremendous number of minority males getting merit-based academic aid then you've wiped out your male athletic and needs-based stuff.

>>These are colleges and universities, right? The objective of scholarships is to provide access to an education. Therefore, evaluating the awarding of scholarships based on gender.....solely on the basics of athletics is silly. If girls makeup 52% of the college population and receive 52% of total scholarship dollars, isn't that at a top level what fairness is?<<

Yes; if your objective is to treat all aid equally. In other words, if you don't wish to distinguish among academic, athletic, and needs-based programs then using a single measure would seem to be fundamentally fair.

The issue as I see it is that there is a strong desire to distinguish among academic, athletic, and needs-based programs. For example, I'd gladly vote to keep needs-based programs if we could only have one.

>>If it isn't reasonable to look at a soccer to soccer comparison...then lets look at the student population as a whole as it relates to scholarships. <<

The latest numbers then show that we should be awarding 56%+ of all scholarship dollars to females, since that is the average percentage of females in the undergraduate student population. It is estimated that this will increase to 61%+ in the next two years.

Again, the proposal makes some amount of sense if you're willing to do away with various programs with various motivations. Honestly, I could care less what such a proposal would do athletically -- since acting as a feeder system to professional leagues doesn't really seem to be an original mandate of higher learning -- but I would tend to be concerned about the impact on needs-based programs in terms of what it would do to what is rapidly becoming an increasing minority -- the male college student.

>>[Big Daddy] I'm also going to ask you to watch your language. You have used words like misogynist, racist, sexist, apartheid...and to a far lesser degree used insulting language like calling something silly, simply because they have a different perspective than you do.

I can use words too........how about arrogant, hypocritical, narrowminded, intolerant and intellectually reckless.<<


I am pleased you can use these words and I honestly don't mind your using them in describing my posts. However, in order to make your point, you might actually want to explain specifically what it is that I am writing that exhibits these characteristics.

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"Fundamentally, here's what my definition of "fairness" is. I think in our system today that our best athletes should have a proportionally equal chance to participate and receive proportionally equal money for participating at government-subsidized institutions. Thus, if a young Terrell Owens or Randy Moss want to play football or soccer, they should have an equal chance to participate and receive funding regardless of the sport they choose as does a young Cheryl Miller or Mia Hamm. Anything else would appear to me to be fundamentally unfair. "

Not a bad idea......but how do you divvy it up? On what basis would a young Mia Hamm get a scholarship over a young Cheryl Miller? Or more importantly, when would a young soccer player get a scholarship over a 3rd string offensive linemen.

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Quote:

If we were talking about professional sports, or even private corporate sports (e.g., clubs), then I of course totally agree that supply and demand dictate the opportunity, i.e., the supply of athletes has to be proportional to the demand for market-based revenue.

But of course we're not talking about professional sports; we're talking about academic institutions that receive federal and state funding. We're talking about institutions that by mandate are open to all and offer opportunities to all in multiple arenas.




If the purpose of these institutions were solely academic with no emphasis on the generation of revenue from sports, and they are offering opportunities to all, than the scholarships they offer should be based on academic performance not athletic. The fact is that sports revenue has a lot to do with what opportunities are available. A lot of athletes get full rides while students with better academic credentials and performance do not.

I believe most D1 football scholarships come from football generated revenue (including booster club donations), not federal and state funding. So,demand IS determining the opportunity to a great degree.

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Chico, all the evidence anyone needs is to read your posts.

I really am dumb, because I should have learned that it doesn't make any sense to argue with you. It doesn't make your argument right...it does mean you have more endurance than any of us, me included.

If you go back and read this thread its funny how something benign yet interesting turned cancerous so quickly.

I love a good debate.....but I do not like your language or the intent behind your language. Whether this subject or some other one.....you are OCD to a point that is sick.

Keep rolling dude, I'm done wit ya.

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>>[Big Daddy] Not a bad idea......but how do you divvy it up? On what basis would a young Mia Hamm get a scholarship over a young Cheryl Miller? Or more importantly, when would a young soccer player get a scholarship over a 3rd string offensive linemen.<<

The reason I raised it is that trying to take major sports (e.g., football) out of the equation takes us farther away from this ideal goal versus what Title IX is trying to do which is to allow females proportional participation.

I honestly would love to see men's and women's soccer get 25 fully-funded scholarships. I don't like the fact that the NCAA limits men's scholarships specifically to a sport. At the same time, if there's going to be a fully-funded 85 scholarships for football, then I want to see Title IX implemented as intended, i.e., that males and females have proportional representation as a percentage of their representation as undergraduates. This doesn't mean you can't have 25 (or more!) scholarships in men's soccer -- it just means the university has to make some tough decisions as to what additional women's programs will be funded to meet the Title IX requirements.

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Or cut football scholarships.

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Big Daddy: Thanks for the time you spent on this thread. While I continue not to understand the logic behind your position, you have demonstrated that you believe passionately in it.

P.S. At some point in the future, you'll have to explain to me that telling me I suffer from a psychological affliction is okay but stating that specific ideas and concepts are misogynist is somehow wrong!

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Big Daddy: I have absolutely no problem cutting football scholarships -- and I played college football!

Then again, I wasn't very good at it!

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Quote:

P.S. At some point in the future, you'll have to explain to me that telling me I suffer from a psychological affliction is okay but stating that specific ideas and concepts are misogynist is somehow wrong!





You are correct. Your use of insulting language doesn't justify my use of insulting language and I apologize.

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And who is the best player in the state again? I just want to wish everyone that keeps this forum so interesting a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!!!

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enzo is my pick but for u15 i would have to say ben puetter and not joey demore due to him being over rated, the u18 girls premier team has a really good forward, im not sure about her name i think its Kira.

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Big Daddy: You beat me to it! I logged on specifically so I could apologize for anything you took to be insulting. I honestly didn't mean it to be so, but realize it's the perception that matters and not the intent. There's no need to apologize to me -- saying I have OCD is probably one of the nicest things anyone has said to me in a long time!

Again, I apologize for anything said that was insulting to you. Have a great Christmas!

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All—

I hate that this did become a negative exchange—I hope we can see that, I believe, most of us are arguing that there are some negative assumptions about females still within our society—I have no desire to accuse anyone of being purposefully biased against women—In fact, I assume that most of us on this board like/love young people equally—And believe sports might be a way to do good for young people.

I guess I am naive—I never thought anyone was being rude or accusatory—but I will take my dose of blame for nudging this discussion of best player into gender equity!—Sorry. . .

Happy Holidays to all the parents, fans, and coaches who try diligently to do what is best for our young athletes!


"Living well's the best revenge." r.e.m.
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Don't apologize!!! You brought some excellent points that might not of been addressed..We chose to be a part of the wonderful game of soccer..My daughter plays this game because she loves it...she is not looking for a free ride to higher education or conplaining that some boy got a chance that she did'nt....It's all about the love of the game and the desire to play

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the one thing i would like 2 know is what happened 2 the best player in the state discusion huh.?


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ehs1: I've changed the "reply" line above to "Best Player in the State" so that now you more easily give us your opinion and actively participate in this thread!!!

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While I was doing some last-minute Christmas shopping....you guys decided to go mud wrestling! Glad you patched it up. Luv ya both! Happy Holidays! Thanks for the discussion (and the entertainment) as the office is absolutely empty this morning.


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Taylor Craft (a late bloomer, but recent Erskine Committ) maybe one of the best All-Around seniors in AAAA this year, Robinson is one of the top 5 forwards in all divisions and grade levels, and the same goes for Maxwell in the goal.

There. Back on topic

But perhaps a new topic should be started picking up where teh apologies left off. My last comment on this thread...thank goodness soccer, particularly girls, are not funded by their own revenue. I love girls soccer more than football with no room for debate, but it's impossible to dismiss with a wave of the hand that:

Because a minority of gridiron teams do not make a profit, the argument of women's soccer = financial leech is invalid.

I think the money suction tenticles feed off the basketball teams in those isolated instances.

Seriously, can someone find (and link) the percentage of women's collegiate soccer teams that are self sustaining vs those that are dependent on football/basketball in another thread?

A quick phone call to the AD's of Furman, USC, Wofford, Clemson, and The Citadel would be clutch for this argument. C of C, Francis Marion, USCA/Upstate, Lander, and other non football schools would be welcome as well. In fact, forget the stats and get it straight from the horse's mouth.

I go the football games in the fall and the soccer in the spring. I've gotten my Master's Degree in Sports Administration and did my final paper on the subject. I don't need anyone else's statistics to tell me that without football, girls soccer (at least in this state) would be devastated. You see I have my own. I've got Upstate AD's that I interviewed to preach the truth. On average from 11 Upstate schools, football brings in 84% of the athletic budget with a standard deviation of 4.233% yet only spends 21% with a deviation of 8.618%. Using a slightly more limited experience in playing both collegiate football and soccer, I remember the attendance comparisons. Girls soccer is a crutch - it needs the other sports to survive. I do no think they deserve equal representation in scholarships based on being financial dead weight in MOST situations. However I support title IX for without it I think most female representation on the collegiate level would be erased due to financial restraints. They deserve the opportunity to play.

New thread

Last edited by Whiskey & Easy; 12/27/06 06:48 AM.
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(Responding only to the first paragraph (in this thread)...)

T.L. Hanna is loaded for bear this year!!!

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A thousand plagues on your family...

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Whiskey & Easy: I just noticed this. Dude...after a good season this year, I think T.L. Hanna is a strong top 5 team this year and has a good shot at a state championship...good luck to them!

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W&E,

I heard one of your CESA players was going to be out for the high school season with foot surgery? True or is this just a rumor?

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Rumor with possible upgrade to truth. Injury exist, but time will tell the extensiveness. No scheduled amputation at this point in time.

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Grim Keeper:
I have found some of your posts very interesting. Under this thread you said:
"Speaking in behalf of the girls: I believe the CESA U-17 Premier team keeper is the best player on the girls side. After her State Cup performance in PK's, she performed on demand. Very technical and makes the right decisions.
Sorry, I don't know her name."
Then you moved to the Girls High School Soccer forum and started this thread - "2007 Best HS Teams & Players" You named the below players as your picks:
"Forwards:
4-A
1 - Kira Campbell, Lexington
5 - Caitlin Robinson, T.L. Hanna
3-A
3 - Austin Fagan, Riverside
4 - Brently Roberts, Eastside
5 - Rae Wilson, J.L. Mann
Midfielders:
4-A
1 - Hannah Gmerek, Wren
3-A
2 -Sarah Jacobs, Riverside
Defenders:
4-A
2 - Casey Craft, T.L. Hanna
3 - Alex Zongrone, Dorman
5 - Allison Truitt, J.L. Mann
2-1 A
4 -Kelsy McCraw, Christ Church"

Of the 11 players you listed - 8 are from the U17 Girls Premier Team that you did not know who the keeper was. On the "2007 Best HS Teams & Players" thread you then list 6 other keepers who all play for CESA. Help me understand how you did not know who the U17 Premier keeper was when you seem to know every other keeper at CESA and the majority of the U17 girls team? Or should I ask - Do I smell fish?

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On all of your lists I belive you are missing Jessica Thomas from Woodruff (2A). She has been All state every year and played most of the field positions. Grim keeper if speaking of CESA girls she is the key to the u18 girls defense that has the lowest goals against average in the region III play last season. I know that I may be bias being from Woodruff though, I think her play speaks for it self.

Last edited by utvolsiat1; 01/06/07 11:24 AM.

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Sailor Jerry:

I just did not know her at that paticular time. Since State Cup I have had the opportunity to know more about her and her teammates. The reason the list I shared was primarily CESA based was because the people I know know CESA. Plus, based on their performance why would they not be the best players in the State? They certainly had shown their dominance at the Club level.

I have asked others to list teams and players that I may not be aware of and some have and some have been from CESA. Do you have any useful information about players or teams or are you just the newly appointed bloodhound of the posting world. Seems to me that SNIFFERS are just someone who is looking for something others have left behind. Not a high level place in the world. No one likes a SNIFFER!!!

Others in the posting world seem to drift of topic too much. If you don't want to discuss the best teams and players for 2007 then start your own topic. Don't pile up our conversation with your soapbox topics. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy reading your intelligent conversation, but I would rather read it under its own topic. SOME OF YOU LIKE THE SOUND OF YOUR OWN TYPING!!!!! as intelligent as it is..

Sailor Jerry: Simply put, the people I know, know CESA. Who do you know? Or are you just sniffing around?

Since you brought up the U-17 GK (Kendall Maxwell) to be exact, I thought I would share some info I found out about her. Interested??? Probably not, but just for light reading here goes.

Not only did she step-up and perform at State Cup 2006, Not only did she step-up and perform at Regionals 2006 as mentioned by "sbs", I mentioned that if you looked further you would find more. Guess what, I did.

2005 CASL SHOOTOUT (Raleigh, NC) vs. OHIO PREMIER
Maxwell & team U-16 won in PK's again.

2003 State Cup U-13 w/Clemson Area Soccer Club (Crush)
Maxwell & team won in PK's again.

If you have an alternative to Kendall Maxwell for the best GK at the 4-A high school then please share. If you don't have any useful info to share then don't post.


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FROM ONE WHO KNOWS


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Grim:
I did not mean to offend you, but it really does seem odd that you know so much about the U17 CESA Team and about their keepers accomplishments at the age of 12. I will take your word that it is based on what others are telling you. Have you seen the U17 CESA Girl Premier Team play?

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Grim:

I have heard that Katie Tate (CESA 90 Premier) has been invited to the National ODP camp in Feb. 1 of 12 in the nation for GK training. Great job Katie.

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Fan:

If this is true, this is a huge accomplishment!!!!! Any regional or national team experience writes your ticket to anywhere you want to go. Congrats Katie Tate!!!!!

Sailor Jerry:

No offense taken. All of these girls seem to have played together since they were 9 & 10. The majority of the U-17 team has played in the State Cup Finals for 8 years in a row. I can ask for info on each player and get info since they were 10. The benefit of parents and players being together for a long time. I have seen the U-17 & U16 teams play. I saw them at the RBC Tourney.


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FROM ONE WHO KNOWS?


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Thats probably enough on individual players in the state. Again, individuals don't win games; teams do. I think the discussion needs to focus on who are the best teams collectively, rather than who are the best individual players.

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2004striker:

I think you can knock the dust off how you feel already. You have not added any best teams to the discussions. If that is how you feel then give teams or are you just soapboxing again. We know already!!!!

Unfortunately for you, our State does name best players at their positions. They are called All-State, All-Region, Gatorade Player of the Year. A team is not called All-State etc...., Champions maybe.

As long as these players are crowned by the State, then our discussions are applicable. Like the radio and TV stations you don't care for, change the channel or in this case read a different topic.

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FROM ONE WHO KNOWS?


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Grim Keeper

I believe that your thread concerning best player in the state belongs in the girls High School thread.

There are many players who don't participate in public school soccer, and are therefore not eligible for All-State, All-Region, or Gatorade Player of the Year.

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Green1121:

I agree completely. And guess what? That is exactly where it is!!! #6 from the top of the Girls High School Topics. People keeep dragging it over here. Check it out and you'll see the topic changes as it goes. Very hard to keep something going.

Maybe people don't really know this information enoungh to discuss it with out chasing rabbitts all over the place. Are we sure these guys aren't PREACHERS!!!

Let me know when it gets serious!


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FROM ONE WHO KNOWS THAT NOBODY ELSE KNOWS!


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Why are people bringing up best teams, when the thread is about the best player? Seems appropriate to me.

Maxwell is good. Very good in my opinion. There are many others, but she is the only one I know personally.

Random high school facts from 2006: She split time with Anderson University starter Kelli Whitfield, but has managed to rank #6 in all time saves at T.L. Hanna being just a sophomore. She took part in 10 shutouts for the Hanna defense, and recorded 99 saves (and scored a goal against Laurens).

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W&E:

What out behind you, 2004striker & Sailor Jerry are lurking! Shame on you for bringing up a player again. Did you not hear, players can't win it's teams that win.


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FROM ONE WHO KNOWS THAT NOBODY KNOWS!!


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Nobody pays attention to me anyway. I just pop up every once in a while to type some babble and then disappear.

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Thanks utvolsiat1:

Thanks the kind of info I want to hear about. I will add to my list. I will enter my list on the Girls High School tread.

How's that green1121??? Check it out later.


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FROM ONE WHO KNOWS THAT NOBODY KNOWS!


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W&E:

Probably a good tactic. If you care about it much you could get you feelings hurt. Why I don't know, but you could.


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FROM ONE WHO KNOWS THAT NOBODY KNOWS!


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I've heard so many things about me, I don't have feelings anymore!

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Feelings....nothing more than, feelings. Trying to forget...... :

This has turned into a great thread, huh?


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I think its on it last leg...

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Grim,

Here is the official word on Kate Tate.

http://www.carolinaelitesc.com/

Congratulation Kate

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I think the best player in the state is Enzo n their is no doubt about that.But i saw this kid name Fernando Gonzalez at Disney with CESA he is pretty good.I dont know if he playes odp.And i also heard he playes for Discoveries Soccer CLUB.He is a great center-mid and foward.But not better than Enzo.Where is Fernando from????And what age group???

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I think that this is going to be a critical year for Enzo. I’ll go along with those who want to call him the best player in the State but I think some of the attention he garners is because of his youth. Would he have gotten the same accolades if he were playing as a senior? Several times last year he faced older, more experienced high school defenders who were able to neutralize him, and it will be interesting to see how he fares against players like Houghton and Maki this year. The question I want to see answered?
Is Enzo someone who simply matured faster than his peers, or will he continue to work and improve at the same rate he has over the past several years. If he does, it is going to be beautiful to watch.


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Fernando is also from Northwestern, I think he is Enzo's cousin...not sure. He is an average player but will never be anywhere near that of Enzo's ability.

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Yea Fernando is never going to be like Enzo but they both have differnet type of playing.Enzo is more of a direct person Fernando is more of a creative person in the middle of the field.But you are right he is never ging to be like Enzo.I think noboby in this state is going to be like Enzo that guy is a relly good player for his age hope he gets better and better.So Fernando is Enzo cousin no wonder he playes so good and knows what to do.What age group is Fernando 92 or 91????

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Frenando played for the 1992 ODP team this weekend up in Charlotte. However, not sure if this is any indication but he didn't start for that team.

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Just as an FYI...Fernando and Enzo are not related...just both from Uraguay. Also, Fernando is not currently a student at Northwestern. He is an 8th grade middle school student who is currently zoned to attend Rock Hill High School.


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I saw Fernando play in ODP this weekend.He did start he started against North Carolina and West Virginia.He played some great soccer out their.He didnt start against Tennessee.But he played alright that game.You know why he didnt start because he already made it.Did you see Enzo.That guy played great.He had some great passes and some great goals.But that is just me.So Fernando is a 8th grader that is pretty shocking because he is a big player and he can take some hits like against West Virginia.So Fernando is Uruguayan is Enzo from their too????

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Soccerdogg...as I mentioned in my post above, both Enzo and Fernando are from Uraguay...


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Dog....that is exactly why I said I was not sure that it was an indication of his abilities. However, I think were getting a little ahead of ourselves to say Fernando is the best player in the state as this thread addresses. BTW he wasn't the only 8th grader playing on the '92 team. I know of at least 4 others. I didn't see him play the first two games but was he so far above the other players on that team to be consider the best in the state?

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i think jan hernandez is the best player in the state....after his return from mexico he has come back with a nasty touch.

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Who is Jan Hernandez? Where/Who does he play for?

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Who?....it would appear he is rightmidhunt
He played in CESA although I do not know which team

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Jan is a pretty decent player, but to say he is the best player in the state is ludicrous. Last I heard he was playing soccer down in Mexico.

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well. Decent is an understatement. He was offered 2 year contract at Pachuca. I dont think a DECENT player would be getting contract offers.

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Jan Hernandez is a Junior at Dorman High School. He did not play club this season b/c he was in mexico where he played for Pachuca reserves and the Atlas youth team. He got back in December and due to eligibility issues he will not be able to participate this year in High School soccer.

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Then maybe he should stay in Pachuca and not worry that the SCHSL will not let him play at Dorman. Or since he did not have the grades staying in Mexico may help him to learn the metric system and history of Mexico.

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that would probably be best but the lifestyle change is too drastic. He should just sit out this season and prepare for this upcoming club season.

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Does playing Pachuca reserves and the Atlas youth team make him ineligible for college, if not then he should try and get every game he can through CESA's College Advisory Program.

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well im assuming he never signed a contract or else he would have no reason to argue for his eligibility. Signing a contract would forfeit his amateur status....

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Even if he could play, Jan is not even the best player on Dorman. Autenzio, both Essman's are better and there are a few others that I could name as well.

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which are the other guys you're talking about and have you ever actually seen him play?

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if he had been offered a pro contract, why not stay in mexico and play soccer for money?

And if he couldnt pass the classes maybe he should have sucked it up a little more, and studied, and made the most of a great opportunity


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well if he planed to come back at all he wouldnt be allowed to play for high school since signing a contract would not make him an amateur anymore....

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who about andrew autenzio??best player??

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no....he was more dangerous last year than this year

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I think TL Hanna will probably be a little down this year. Twp of their top players are not playing this season. One just had surgery the other is playing basketball???????????????????

Last edited by Hobo; 02/09/07 03:47 AM.

That there is an RV Clark......
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