SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Club Soccer & ODP relegation/promotion

futbol: you will not get any disagreement from me on this issue, but it's a reality that exists. And I agree with Coach P, my kid's teacher has a lot of influence on what he thinks and does.

While minimum rules are needed for safety (lord knows there are some idiots out there), and I'm not qualified to speak about 7/8th graders playing JV -- I'll leave that to others.

But for the same reason I do not support mandatory relegation/promotion (I do not believe in a one-size fits all type of rules and dont really like people telling me what to do), I do not believe I would support a rule that says 7/8th graders shouldn't play JV soccer.

I'd rather see SCYSA go out and look for ways to encourage more participation in recreation (not a topic of this thread) and competitive soccer within the state. At this time, that job is fully on local and regional clubs through mostly organic growth. Let the market forces judge what is better, but right now it seems that SCYSA is loosing that battle based on current numbers.

I propose that we might be at that time to expand our divisions at the younger ages (U13/U14). And my next thought is for SCYSA to start stumping the YMCAs and local recreation programs that are not part of SCYSA to put together select teams from their existing rec teams that can participate within the newly created 3rd division. Somehow I would think SCYSA could find a way to register the teams for insurance purposes without the administrative hurdles of forming new clubs (BODs, bylaws, etc.) by creating a state-wide electronic club for this purpose, and make it financially appealing to these non-SCYSA affiliated programs to try it out.

Whatever happened to being happy that a player is simply having fun with soccer, regardless of where she plays? For purely selfish reasons would we try to demean one over the other, especially at such a young age. Enjoy them playing instead of ridiculing who they choose. Boooooooo!!!

Whiskey,

I am very glad they are playing and certainly did not intend to be demeaning one over the other. And this is not just a club coach who is upset over losing players. During the time when the SCHSL had the no-dual-participation rule, one of my daughters chose club over JV and the other chose JV. So that is not my issue.

All I was trying to say is that I am concerned that the players will get burned-out or their grades will suffer and for either of these reasons they might quit soccer or lose their enthusiasm for it. 10-14 club games plus club tournaments plus 12 JV games plus JV tournaments is a LOT of soccer during a 2-3 month period. My concern is for the kids' health, well being, and continued love for the game.

I'm not sure if the effect of playing both school and U13-U14 club soccer in the Spring is the same all over the state, but here are some of the things that effect us in the Richland/Lexington county area:

- 7th and 8th graders are allowed to play varsity at the SCISA schools: Cardinal Newman, Hammond, and Heathwood Hall.
- 7th and 8th graders are allowed to play JV at the Richland 1, Lexington/Richland 5, and all Lexington County School Districts.
- 7th and 8th graders in Richland 2 are not allowed to play JV if their middle school has a team. I believe all of the Richland 2 middle schools have both boys and girls teams. The middle schools involved are Blythewood, Dent, E L Wright, Kelly Mill, Summitt.

Very interesting and complex when you are coaching a team affected by all of the above. My team has players from 10 different schools in all 3 of the above situations. Those on the middle school teams are least affected. They have games at 3:00 PM and have no conflicts with club team practices. Those playing JV and Varsity have mid-week games at night which conflict with traditional club practice times. Makes for quite a juggling act.

Coach P - very good point regarding the number of games that middle school kids will play this spring. This is certainly a concern. My daughter could play close to 40 games between February - May. Fortunately, JV games are 30 minute halves and she shouldn't play more than half of a game.

futbol - could it be possible that a high school JV or varsity coach could ever be a "step up" from a player's club coach?

I think ability to play both club and high school ball depends entirely on the player and the location. For some people, it would involve burnout and the possibility of lower grades, but for others, it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing.

I played varsity soccer for Ashley Hall in 7th and 8th grades as well at Mount Pleasant - Hungryneck and while it involved an immense amount of running around and participation on my parents' parts, I enjoyed it up until the end half of the season and that was a result of my club coach, not burnout. (Granted, this was way back in 98-99/99-00)

Two days a week, I'd hitch a ride with one of the juniors or seniors to varsity practice, practice hard there until I had to leave 15-30 minutes early when my parents showed up. Then we'd drive from Johns Island to Patriots for my full club practice. High school games were on weekdays, so sometimes I'd miss a club practice for a game, but the only other time I had a conflict was during the Rotary Classic.

At this point, Ashley Hall didn't travel hardly except for the playoff games and I think, my 8th grade year at least, they returned to the playoffs after some long period, so this doesn't necessarily apply to much more active teams. But I started almost every game for Ashley Hall and would play much of the duration and played much of my club season until my coach decided that he didn't like me playing with another team. After that first year, I ended up playing U16 at Mount Pleasant so there was no conflict in 8th grade--my 12 year old mind had delusions of being a 6 year starter for the varsity and senior captain...excepting the part where I left for high school to BE and then to Wando.

At any rate, it is possible to play varsity as a 7th and 8th grader, but probably not for everyone. Doubling up was hard work, but in my situation it mostly worked out thanks to my school and our SCISA games and game times. Even for playing JV and club though, it takes an understanding of what you're getting into, both effort and time-wise, and coaches on both sides who understand and support what you're doing to enough of a degree that they won't needlessly punish you.

JV programs back when I was that age weren't big enough to attract players from Mount Pleasant at that age, so we were lucky not to have to face any team time conflicts. And I know that it's been a long time since I played and the rules have changed, but I wanted to point out that it is possible to do so, maybe not for many anymore without the perfect conditions, but it is.

Catching my consistency, Hurst???

The answer is yes, Phil Savitz at Irmo, Finotti at Riverside, Frederick- Irmo, Hiller - Chapin, Heise - BC and others.

My point was not to state that they should not play JV because the coach is horrible (and I think you would agree that capable school coaches are not the standard at either JV or Varsity). My point was to agree with Coach P that it is too much to ask of a 7th and 8th grader.

The issue is who it affects and how it is presented.

Who does it affect- 7th and 8th graders who are SKILLED soccer players. Lets face if the numbers are available, you will select the best player ...PERIOD.
How is it presented - the most stated reason told me - "I want to play for my school". This is not true, they are not playing for the middle school they are playing for the high school with the majority of the players not even in the same social group.

So what is the problem with this? - 2 issues

1- if it is a contact sport at the varsity level, what is different in the game at the JV level?
2- if you made the JV team it is because you are capable of playing. A concept that will not escape the Junior playing JV on the other side of the ball who is tired of being made to look stupid. Simple math - Junior is 5'10" 150 lbs the 8th grader 5' 4" 120lbs (wet).

Lets use the example a couple of seasons ago when Jamal blew out his knee. He did it playing an overzelous inferior player on an inferior team. All the player was trying to do is win the ball because he was tired of everyone laughing.

ON THE OTHER HAND - if there are Middle school teams (so called C teams) then no I would consider the coaching.

How about asking the question like this.... If johnny/sallie can play varsity soccer at 12, why not play U18/17 club ball?

I agree with you futbol....good points. Size matters. Just because you have U-18/varsity skills, doesn't mean you belong in a U-18/varsity game when you are 12 years old.

Would you agree with me that the argument from the girl's side is a little different from the boy's side?

#1 - The size differential between an 8th grade girl and a senior in HS is not as significant.

#2 - Girls really appreciate the social aspect of the sport and feel connected to the high school. JV (middle school) girls love riding the bus and hanging out with the older players, some of which are their siblings.

If the kid is good enough, why not? If you're going to argue on weight and size, then why not prevent true 18 year olds who are 5'4'' and 120 pounds from playing too? They might be going up against bigger players and get hurt. The bone development isn't finished in some 8th graders, true (and some growth plates in girls don't stop growing until they're 21), but the size differential might not change between an 8th grader and a 12th grader going up against someone bigger than them.

There is always a risk of injury when you play against anyone, especially someone larger than yourself, but that's a risk you (and your parents) have to take for yourself. If the player is good enough to handle the skill level of an older age group and their parents support it, aside from club regulations designed to keep good players in their age groups, there shouldn't be a reason to keep them from playing to a level that best challenges them. Yes, there will always be that reckless player who's out to hurt people...but they'll hurt you whether you're 12 or 17 for the simple reason that they're being reckless and uncaring.

There aren't that many kids who could try out for and make a U17 team at 12 anyway, so letting the parents decide that if their child is good enough to be challenged at that level shouldn't be too big of a leap.

That said as well...some 8th graders are 14 and some 15. Age-wise they could play varsity if they were good enough and a grade higher. How are we to determine whether or not they're capable of playing up simply by grade? Freddy Adu was 14 when he signed to play professional ball. He obviously had the skill to play enough to get developed at that level rather than at U14 club soccer or a JV team. Bobby Convey signed at 16, I believe. Both of them play and practice with men twice their age and with, likely, large size differentials.

Restricting play completely to ages disregards the fact that there are those who can play at a higher level AND contribute, despite their size or youth and it could possibly deny them a better challenge or development for them. If the player could be selected for and play on a U17 team and be challenged versus driving two hours north to be challenged on another team, most parents I know would choose the more local option. The choice should be one left to parents' evaluations of their children and coaches evaluations of their players. If the kid can play, unless s/he has some health problems, the kid should be able to play at whatever level best suits them.