SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Girls Varsity Soccer The creative forward....the female "Enzo"

There has been lots of talk on the 3A thread about "best players". I agree that the player who has the opportunity to consistently deposit the ball in the back of the net is not always the best player, but I do have a soft spot for creative players who can score goals against good competition.

Where is the female Enzo? Is there a player out there who can dribble through a couple of quality defenders and change a game by scoring a great goal? Is there a player out there with the will (and ability) to take a game over on the offensive end?

Do we teach this? coach this? encourage this?

We've had a number of great players reach the Division 1 level over the past years:

Alex Mouton (very fast)
Blakely Mattern (very technical, smart)
Julie Bolt (very fast, very strong, skilled, fit)
Jen Ficklen (very technical, strong, smart)

We've also had a couple of girls break the century mark (Caitlin Robinson - TL Hanna, Danielle Schmitt - Fort Mill).

But is there a girl out there, who when the chips are down, can dribble through a quality defense and score a creative goal? Can anybody dance like Enzo?

Robinson and Gmereck are both great dribblers, but very direct with little negative motion. I haven't seen a "Brazilian-style" female HS player in the last two years.

Gmerek, Campbell and Sheets are all very solid juniors with college careers ahead of them. All can score but generally within the confines of "the system". All three do a heckuva lot more than score, in fact when you think of these three, goal-scoring may not be the first thing that comes to mind. They don't need to score to be effective.

Do we teach players to become great goal scorers? Do we discourage it? When we find a great individual player at age 8, do we put her on a competitive team and encourage her to play within the system? Is this a male/female thing where girls are uncomfortable with garnering all of the attention at the expense of their friends/teammates?

Pass=good, dribble=bad?

Is it easier to teach a young lady to be a great defender than it is to teach her to be a great goal scorer? I believe it is. I don't think coaches spend enough time turning their good finishers into "great" finishers.

It isn't "easier" to coach "great" regardless of position. Maybe easier to coach "good" def over "good" forward.

Several top players can score or take over when needed, but at HS level those same tend to do many other things day in and out for the good of the team.

The real world isn't "Goal!" or "Bend It Like (you know who)." Am quite glad we don't have many young women players trying to "dribble through the whole defense" as far too many young men think that is soccer. . .

p&y,

I haven't seen a girl take over a game offensively, by beating decent defenders 1 v 1, in seven years of watching varsity high school in this state.

You want me to applaud them for not dribbling through the defense "selfishly" and scoring a goal? I watched Fort Mill, Wando and Lexington play three round-robin 0-0 draws last month. It would have been exciting if someone from any of those teams would have decided to take matters into their own hands.

Explain your "confines of the system" comment.

Gmereck can make it as a winger or even attacking mid. She does exceptional while facing the goal. Robinson is the best finisher I HAVE EVER seen, and often comes back to the midfield to help. She does best while posted up to the goal/defender. A male comparison would be to Ching or McBride. Gmereck is more of the Donavon or Beasley mold. She dribbles well, creates, shoots from afar, and has burning speed.

I guess we should encourage our players to do often what they do best. We set Cait up so as to capiltalize on her strengths and I know Michael Burriss does the same with Gmereck.

The more talented players can do about any job you want, but the personality has to be matched to the position. One thing like dribbling or passing isn't to be commended over the other, that is pigeon holing your players and very, very unwise. Run 'em through the drills and watch as they develop their favorite areas.

Top 15 teams usually have the luxury to put their better players where they will fit best. Those more towards the middle/bottom usually put their talents up top, center mid, or at sweeper. Best players are put in the highest traffic areas as opposed to what suits them best.

(Little off topic, but fun to brag on the Region 1 players )

Hurst66—

I'm sure we're talking about different things—Of course, a player taking on a defense and winning a match is what we all are looking for (and it has happened—sorry you've missed it), but that is different than a player who thinks that is everything. That mentality ruins a number of males; so my point was about that.

Good points all around. Any "one way" of thinking is wrong as we all know. They gotta believe you can dribble so you can pass and verse visa.
How the player is developed is a big factor. If like the case with most of mine they come from rec. coed. The girls play even with the boys ages 5-10. Then from 10-14 the playmaking is done by the boys, girls for the most part are in support. When they arrive at JV/V they are back in control and in central positions. So you can see the shifts that take place.
Of course this is not 100% true in all cases.
I am trying to get a girls only league in my area for ages 11-14 but it is a very tough climb.

M*A*S*H Daddy,

I agree that every HS coach has to strategically place their best players in the middle of the field. Some teams have more "A players" than others. I guess Enzo benefits from having other very good forwards and midfielders around him, giving him the luxury (and freedom) to go to the goal and take on defenders, without the fear of losing the ball.


p&y,

I'm not saying a player has to be "selfish" to the detriment of the team.....I'm just looking for a player who has the ability to do this at "crunch time". I'm sure it's happened as you state above, I'm also pretty sure that it doesn't happen that often.


Coach Tim,

Good point concerning player development. Again I ask, are we teaching 1v1 and 1v2? Are we encouraging it? In the middle of the field it's generally not a great idea, but when you get into the final attacking third it often becomes necessary.
The young players that have the ability to do this might be pushed ahead to become more challenged. Instead of dominating, and building confidence, at their age division is it possible that they are moved up to a premier level, or perhaps even up an age group? Now that the creative player is "playing up" and giving up size, can they continue to be encouraged to hold the ball? Or do they have to give it up because the game is now faster and more physical?

Just a thought.

Hurst
Simple answer. No, on 1v1, 1v2 and individual skills.
To give an answer I can only reference my little slice of the world.
Another factor is self play and small sided play.
I read an article in 4-4-2 a few years back they interviewed many top players about their early years. The most common factors were small games and a ball and a wall.
How is this for an idea. What if we didnt "coach" kids till they were 10. Meaning we "develop" them, let them play. I officiated a 5 year old game last fall. A coach had a player double teamed, imagine that idea. He was considered brilliant after the match. 5 years old.

Keeping score and 11 v 11 in the early years is severly frowned upon over seas. Tim, you and I may have read the same magazine (I've switched to "World Soccer" since then for a more global perspective).

I was with the YMCA when Trevor Adair restructured their league formats. First thing he did...no full sided games.

>>[Hurst66] Where is the female Enzo? Is there a player out there who can dribble through a couple of quality defenders and change a game by scoring a great goal? Is there a player out there with the will (and ability) to take a game over on the offensive end?<<

I've seen Enzo play several times in high school and more often in RIIIPL-East. I've seen him shut down in high school for all but moments of a game through smart defending; and I've seen him look brilliant in high school. I've also seen him more often in RIIIPL-East where he looks very good; but several billion light-years away from how he looks in high school in terms of the amount of carrying/scoring he can do before a good defender strips him. None of this should be taken as a slam against Enzo who is clearly one of the state's best players; instead, I'm simply noting that there's a high variation with regard to this statement.

Does SC have female players who can carry and score creatively against weak competition? Yes, we hear about 3 goal, 4 goal, and even 9 goal performance all of the time and I know this isn't just from "garbage collectors" but from kids who can create and score. Does SC have female players who can carry and score creatively against strong competition in high school? Yes, I also see this a lot at the high school level. Obviously against stronger high school teams there's on average less scoring -- teams such as Dorman, Mauldin, Fort Mill, Riverside, Eastside, and the like have strong defenses. A relatively high scoring team such as T.L. Hanna has a combined score of 0-10 against Irmo, Mauldin, and Dorman earlier this season while even higher ranked teams such as Lexington, Dorman, Mauldin, and Fort Mill can struggle to score against each other. And yet we hear of heroics, and I've seen heroics, from very good female players in terms of carrying and scoring. Why? To me, a lot of it has to do with women often playing a more defensive game than men (read Anson Dorrance to get an ear-full of this) -- perhaps even more has to do with the disparity of talent on many teams and the resulting slow ball movement and effective focus on fewer players by defenders.

Does SC have female players who can carry and score creatively against strong competition in RIIIPL-East and against strong broader regional and national competition? It's much more rare; however, I've seen this as well. Who are they? A lot of the names you read about here seem able to do it -- and many names you don't read about as well. There are players at 2A and SCISA schools that play on nationally ranked teams that simply don't have the teams, publicity, and the like to get much discussion here.

I would argue that I see more dominating performances on the girls side than I do the boys side -- primarily because the girls side is weaker than the boys side. Thus, if Enzo plays brilliantly he might score two -- whereas a girl playing brilliantly might score 4 against on average weaker competition. The flip side of that is that Enzo plays with on average stronger players than the average girl does; which helps because there are teams out there will a wonderful player on relatively unskilled teams who don't just have to beat 1-2 players but have to beat 5-6 to achieve the same result.

Let's take an example of a girl who hasn't been mentioned in this discussion. Alex Ramsey, who is one of the few kids from South Carolina to make the region pool last year, plays for a weak high school team. Now, I've seen her play in RIIIPL-East and she's a really good, creative player -- one of the best in her age group and one of the better players in South Carolina. I have no doubt that night after night that Alex does things that Enzo can only dream of doing in high school -- in terms of carrying, beating 5-6 players, and the like -- but that in the end she's having to carry so much more of the burden than Enzo does for his high school team that the net effect is less.

By the way -- am I theorizing that Alex is better than Enzo? No, just that the environment in which she plays is drastically different, the level of competition is lower, and the level of average skill on her team is lower -- all of which make it incredibly difficult to compare this on an apples-to-apples basis.

Exactly. . .

Robinson was MIA against Irmo...so 0-5 would be the actual comparison of dominating players vs. quality opponents. Obviously that is a much better ratio (insert eye roll here). Surely this changes everything (insert eye roll number two).

M*A*S*H—Thanks for making the discussion board interactive.

I do what I can for my little AA brothers and sisters

I think Hurst was going in a different direction on this.

The point wasn't......is Alex Ramsey as good of a player as Enzo? The point was......there appears to be a lack of girl attackers who love the ball on their foot. Who love to take people on and simply slice them up off the dribble.

Alex is a midfielder....a great ballwinner and outrageously dangerous passer. But not known as a dancer. Not saying she can't.....

Heard someone say once that girls are more team oriented than boys, thus, less likely to want to hold the ball and take people on.

My son called me at work about 6 times yesterday about the ManU-AS Roma game on ESPN2.....all he wanted to talk about was Christiano Ronaldo. I got home at 545 or whatever and the Chelsea-Valencia game was on.....almost halftime. I thought Chelsea's possession and tight, 1 touch passing was awesome. Forget that....all my boy wanted to show me were the moves Ronaldo was throwing out and how we was going to take them to practice that night.

I see lots of girls dribbling. What I don't see on the girls side that I do on the boys side...are kids who really like to SCHOOL defenders. Who arrogantly like to school defenders. Not stupidly hold the ball.....not selfishly hold the ball....not simply playing with your head down. But a kid who simply believes that his teams best options for attack lie with their taking on the person in front of them and being confident that they will win that matchup.

MASH: As deahler once said, it's good you're not from Lexington or you'd be accused of whining...

Big Daddy: By the time Alex has beaten 5-6 players instead of the 1-2, perhaps she's too tired to do whatever you want her to do next.

P.S. I've not seen Alex play in high school, only RIIIPL-East, where I've seen her repeatedly "school" other players. However, I wouldn't be surprised if she plays midfield in high school -- on the girls side quite often forwards at the premier level drop into the midfield in high school -- my guess is to attempt to use the player to bridge with other players as much as possible.

Big Daddy: More seriously...you condensed my post into "is Alex as good as Enzo" when I covered the point directly regarding going after 1 or more players offensively. But to boil it down further...

Is there a tendency for girls to "play more unselfishly" (positive statement) or to "not go after a player one on one" (negative statement) more than boys? Yes.

Is there a tendency for boys to "go after a player one on one" (positive statement) or to "play selfishly and heads-down" (negative statement) more than girls? Yes.

Are there exceptions? Yes.

It's my opinion that one of the reasons that CESA is so strong on the girls side (more so even than on the boys side) is that it's one of the few clubs where girls get constant encouragement from a young age to go after opposing players one on one.

Thus, purpleandyellow and I, having seen tons of girls games against nationally ranked opponents, have seen girls going one on one against players again and again. Does that mean that the general tendency you speak of isn't true? Absolutely not. But does that mean that there are exceptions? Absolutely so.

One of Champ Bailey's coaches at Georgia once was asked if fitness was an issue when he was playing cornerback, wide receiver, returning punts, etc. His coach said nah...Champ don't get tired.

Alex don't get tired.

My guess is her CESA coach wouldn't be very happy with her if she tried to do the Latin forward thing from the center midfield position. And in HS she doesn't have the support to do what an Enzo does. Imagine if she played for Fort Mill or Lexington tho?

Big Daddy: He seemed pretty happy with her when she beat a couple of defenders from that position and scored a couple of times... Very good player.

I would add that I know some players who RELISH schooling opposing players—with moves and knowledge of the game. Yes. Girls. But when it IS girls, people respond differently than to boys doing the same thing. Interesting.

Chico,

You are way up on me regarding experience with girls soccer. My oldest that plays is a 9th grader who is a rising U16 from a CLub perspective. So hard to argue with your expereinces which are way broader and deeper than my own.

But based on my experiences in Club soccer and this year in HS soccer.....I don't see what you do. I see great players, for sure!!!! Haven't yet seen that swagger in an attacking player yet this year.

IMO, closest I've seen was Danielle Schmitt of Fort Mill.

purpleandyellow: Agreed...very agreed!

What I like about this thread, by the way, is that we've been able to get in a few more names than is typical. Yes, the player or players that one is closest to, either with respect to blood ties, school ties, team ties, or geographic ties, is the one that most folks want to talk about first. But there's a lot more soccer than that found in a single family, on a single team, or in a single area. And there are a lot of girls out there doing amazing things for weak teams against long odds.

P&Y.....give me some names and schools/Clubs and I'll check them out if I can. I don't understand your last sentence, Whole point of the thread is bemoaning the lack of creative dribbling in the girls game....you seem to think its punished when employed?

Not sure about that. Trying to dribble thru a crowd? yeah, likely to take some heat. Aggressively taking someone on in space in a 1 v 1 setting?

Big Daddy: At the club level, I didn't get a chance to watch Danielle play club; we were focused more on RIIIPL-East than challenge league. And I only saw her play high school once; but that was against a very good defensive team in a 2-1 loss -- and she did get the single assist off of a free kick she made. Fine player...I was glad she walked on at Clemson and I'm hoping she gets more playing time...

When you get a chance, you ought to take a look at the older girls playing RIIIPL-East or (even better) the ODP region pools and region teams. They're pretty amazing...

Boys respond to the guy doing the schooling QUITE differently to how girls respond to girls doing the same.

Also—real experience—girl used her skills to maintain possession against a much weaker team to help the superior team NOT score more; coach of weaker team was LIVID because he felt that was embarrassing his players. Have seen the same situation in a guys match—no such reaction.

People expect guys athletes to be arrogant; people see that differently for females.

I think these gender expectations play into this more so than the skill of our top female players or their urges to "take players on."

Chico, you are probaly right. Lexington's biggest disadvantage is that they have multiple supporters therefore more opportunites for some Anderson redneck to pick disect and categorize as he sees fit. Hurst and I enjoy our strength is solitude (save OE & realmccoy).

(scratching head)
I'm trying to decide if I should be offended...or not
(insert eye-roll here)

realmccoy: I'm still trying to figure out what I could possibly be "right" about in M*A*S*H's note -- I figure with all of the words I post that I finally got lucky!

M*A*S*H: Hey...in this thread I'm definitely outnumbered -- and in any thread I'm definitely out-thought by others.

Of course, by talking about Enzo, Alex, and other York County and surrounding area players -- I earn extra "non-geographic karma" points that I hopefully can cash in telekinetically to help Lexington in the future...

Besides, I posted Lexington's entire roster in another thread -- that probably uses up all my "non-geographic karma" points and puts me back into karma debt.

P&Y.....what you describe in how girls respond to "enzo types" is new to me.....can you explain a bit? I haven't seen what you describe....

Hurst's computer is out of commision so I'll carry the ball for him a little. Lord help me...

Going forward with your skill and weak team analogy....I guess that is the opposite of what Hurst was questioning. Forget the 9-0 games.....its a 0-0 game with 10 minutes left and you have R3PL forwards or mids going against solid, but most definetly not R3PL defenders and mids.....how does that skill showcase itself? And why do so many of the games still end 0-0?

Chico,

I can't shake the feeling that the intent behind this thread has been misunderstood. Of course there are amazing players on the girls end of things!!! Alex is a part of our CESA RH group and my son routinely gets the chance to be taken off the ball by her!!!

But amongst our 10 or so York County kids....we have 2 that kind of standout for the purposes of this thread. Ricky G. plays for '92 CESA Premier.....and Alex, who plays for '91 CESA Premier.

Alex is a better player. She's more physical, works harder, better defensively, sees the field well, passes creatively when attacking, simply when holding. She is a an outstanding player.

But Ricky......man, that kid can dance!!! He is just wonderful to watch with the ball. Holds too long....usually holds too much. But he is simply a fabulous player with the ball on his foot and very difficult to defend when he's facing the goal.

Hurst's intent on this thread....I think, was to ask where these types of players are on the girls side? This isn't questioning the talent or aptitude of the girls....probably no bigger or vocal supporter of girls soccer in this area than Hurst. But Ricky and Alex bring different gifts to the game.

Girls shun this behavior—Guys confront it and deep down want to be LIKE that—

Not just in soccer—common within the normal paterns of adolescent life—

big daddy,
that explains hurst being so quite.i thought he was sick.almost took an act of god hold him down.

I'm back! Had to bring the IT guy up here to handle a "firewall issue" on my new computer (I think they are on to me).

p&y and Chico,

You have seen some of the top players in SC in very high level games (R3PL), I haven't. I believe you that these girls shine in 1v1 and 1v2 opportunities at that level. Perhaps it is because they have the confidence to take on these quality defenders without fear of losing the ball, knowing that they have 10 other very capable teammates behind them that can win the ball back.

Perhaps in HS they are a little gun shy because if they lose it, they have to run back and win it back themselves (eg. Alex Ramsey - RH, Tiana Tallant - NW).

P&Y....girls shun what behaviour?

have we talked about the difference in the speed of the game.i think that contributes to the difference in the boys and girls game.
sorry if it has been talked about but i have not read every post from start to finish

Speed and explosiveness is very important, but it is also relative. The quality defenders should also have very good speed.

We need a young lady who can dance! A little "Latin flair" with the ball.

CESA player Elie Smith who lives at the soccer academy in Florida is rock solid and is a very creative player, she can play the ball with either foot and her style is very european.

I would think that European could be interpreted several ways.

English/Italian/German/Dutch - direct, combative, no wasted motion, lacking flash but excelling in effectiveness

Spanish/Portugeese (sp?) - creative, slashing, finesse, spontaneous

French - crappy

Which one?

Kahzakastanian - Chief exporter of coal

So is one soccer player from Portugal said to be a Portugoose?

NeverPlayed

That has to be the funniest post I've seen . . .

Mozilla Firefox = built in spell check

jack—appreciate the avatar—makes my heart swell a bit that this board has some with KV in mind. . .wonder if kurt preferred the direct or indirect futbol match? desired to see the female game have more brazillian flare?

You two need a room!

Elie Smith is a solid player, but THE player Hurst66 is probably looking for is a former CESA teammate of Elie's.

Her name is Amy Hoover, and she will be joining her sister, Katy, at Greenwood next year. Amy is a good striker but also a creative finisher. She has excellent speed, an explosive first step and... she can definately dance. While she is currently playing midfield with the CESA U-14 Premier Team, she has already proven herself at forward against quality U-16 RIIIPL-E teams.

In the Greensboro tournament last September she guest played with the CESA U-16 Premier Team (her sister's team) scoring both goals in the team's 2-0 win over Coastal Crew (the then defending RIIIPL-E Champion). She also played an important role in the win against the most physical team in U16 RIIIPL-E, NASA (North Atlanta).

Of current SC High School players I believe you would have to consider Rae Wilson at JL Mann as one of the state's dynamic attacking players. However, Wilson has been hampered by a ankle injury from early in the season that has probably kept her from receiving some of the attention she received last year.