SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Club Soccer & ODP Winning or Success?

Just to piggyback a bit on Wayne's thoughts, I thought it would possibly stimulate some lively discussion among parents about the true meaning of success in sports. There is always talk in all sports about the best team (wins not losses), team records, who has the best players, winning championships, etc. This book talks about what should be the most important approach to take in supporting your child's involvement in sports.
The author's principle suggestion is that parents should
"Move your children beyond the 'winning is everything' philosophy of today's athetics and teach them to experience any sport as part of the journey toward becoming a good person."
http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Good-Sport-Your-Face-World/dp/0071391053/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product

To me the meaning of success in sports/soccer changes dramatically when a player moves from rec soccer to travel soccer. At the highest level of any sport, it's about winning, period.

sweet,
So the experience of letting the sports participation serve as a learning tool on how to be a good sport or good person do not factor into your equation of success?

I'm not so sure the differentiation is made at that point (rec to travel), but when players are paid six and seven figures to play the "game" professionally a change has occurred - they become entertainers. (Which in my view justifies it being "all about winning.")

I think there is a compromise here, though not a pretty one. Competition is a "personal journey" for some the journey leads to a multi-million dollar career, for others it leads to an advanced knowledge of the players and teams they love, and yet for more it is just a FUN outlet for them to participate in beyond their daily routine.

If your definition of success is "the very best" then success can still be achieved in whichever route you travel, but you cannot cross-compare because there are different objectives.

Does that make any sense?

The focus here is really on the younger kids-ages 10 to 18-
and the approach that parents should consider when looking at winning is everything v. successful growth within that specific child.

Striker:
I said highest level, that to me means professional.
Jack:
That make lots of sense, I agree totally.

Okay. This is my last stab at it then.

I think for anyone to be not only truly successful, but also enjoy their life - they must have made a conscious choice to pursue whatever it is they are doing.

By that I mean, a parent can have hopes and expectations for their child to be a great soccer player. But no matter how deep that desire is, if the child does not have the same passion it won't happen.

I think a parent should provide every opportunity they can. If the child is comfortable moving from rec to travel ball - move them. If they are comfortable moving to a more competitive club - move them. If they are comfortable signing a contract or a letter of intent - sign away.

The emphasis should be support, rather than pressure.

Am I getting warmer?

Sweet,
Just to clarify........so when a child reaches travel level in soccer, success is about winning, period?

Striker didn't you have a child play recently? If so, what are your thoughts?

Striker:
No, but im still waiting to hear a parent or player ask a player if they were successful after a match. Striker, after a match do you ask a team if they won or if they were successful? During the Disney showcase my phone rang up to 20 times a day with people asking, did my daughters team win? never a call asking were they successful.

sweet,
So you would probably surmise that the consensus would be at a high level of travel soccer, that winning is everything?
always,
You are correcto, and I am gathering my meager thoughts on this subject and will post them soon.

Personally I don't like this line of thinking. Winning is everything? I mean if your kid has a hat trick but the team loses 4-3 that day for him/her wasn't a success? If you are only as good as your last game then this week you may be a "success" because your team won but next week you are not because your team lost? This may say corny/cheesey - but I look at where my kid was the first time he stepped on to as soccer field and where he is now and I think that even if he quit playing today the soccer part of his life was a "success" because of the progress he made and the goals he achieved.

Striker,
Your right, dosn't mean I agree, but at the highest level of club soccer, and I do mean highest, it's about winning. And really, whats wrong with that?

sweet,
So at this high level of soccer, you are considered to be successful, only when you win the game?

Striker,
How will SC ODP' teams success be judged this weekend? In my opinion, in wins vs losses. Period. What do you think?

As teams they will be judged by wins and loses..This is the second tryout for the girls so their team may lose the game but the player makes the squad and that would be considered a success..Just because a team wins does not make every player on that team successful..I would consider Dan Marino a successful football player but he never won a championship.

Cold,
I agree about Marino, however that's the main topic when people discuss his career, he never won the big one. And I do think thats a shame.

sweet,
Since you are speaking about high level soccer, can you teach a kid on a high level soccer team how to lose or how to handle defeat?

You handle defeat by working harder/longer so next time you won't lose.

Either we're oversimplifying or it's that simple.

Striker,
Each player is different, hopefully they learn something positive in defeat.

Happyfeet,
A couple years ago coaches didn't watch SC teams at ODP because they never had much success on the field as a team. I'm sure SC had quality players at the time, but coaches were watching the states that won consistantly. As SC started winning more players started getting noticed.

Sweet,

When your phone rang a few times at Disney, I imagine someone on the other end asked "How did you do?", or "How did she do?", as opposed to "Did you win?".

If you drew, or lost a close game....you could have explained to the caller how your team (or your daughter) played well, despite the fact that the final score may not have gone your way.

This could be considered "a success"....even if you didn't win the match.

The whole darn experience should have been a succes, even for happyfeet and his daughter (despite the fact that he wore her rear end out running her around the amusement parks!)

Hurst,
You got me thinking, your right, they did ask "how did she do?" probally 50% of the time, as opposed to "did she win?". But never how successfull was she or the team.

Big,
But if he plays well and still does not make the team? Would you still consider it a successful experience in your son's life? And would his loss (not making the team) make him a better person?

Vince Lombardi once said that “Winning isn’t everything. It’s the only thing.” Unfortunately, children today are learning that success equates to winning and failure to losing.
I wonder if the respective members of this forum agree or disagree with this statement -
[We glorify winners with trophies and ignore, even vilify losers, but when winning becomes the only objective of youth sports, other very important values and objectives are lost or compromised.]

To learn how to win you must first learn how to lose.

There are different ways to lose...
1- you stink, therefore you must work harder to get better
2- you played hard and got beat by better team. you work harder at getting better
3-you played hard and was "unlucky" to not win. you work hard er at getting better.
4- you played hard , are the better team and were "unlucky" to not win. you work hard er at getting better

all have the same requirement to turn a loss into a success... the problem is the definition of working harder. To each individual it will be different.

I can honestly say that you learn more about yourself, your team, and life by losing than by winning. This is why I believe it is so hard to win at anything CONSISTANTLY...

Someone once told me that in any game the opponent always gets to vote whether you win or lose.

So yes I believe that there can be succes in losing, just like there can be disappointment in winning. Except it does not hurt as much...

If soccer is a team sport the individual player's work ethic is most likely different. Therefore, in the comments above it is not necessarily "you" that must work harder but the team. Obviously, the harder you work should improve the team as a whole.

Thanks to Mr. Emerson this is my definition of success:

"The definition of success--To laugh much; to win respect of intelligent persons and the affections of children; to earn the appreciation of honest critics and endure the betrayal of false friends; to appreciate beauty; to find the best in others; to give one's self; to leave the world a little better, whether by a healthy child, a garden patch, or a redeemed social condition.; to have played and laughed with enthusiasm, and sung with exultation; to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived--this is to have succeeded."

Found these sound bites from "Premier League World" on FSC today interesting in regards to this issue:

U-10 U-11: Premier League Initiative

Initiative not geared totally towards improving football skills, “If you’re in an academy you have to have a disciplined lifestyle. You have to eat healthfully, be organized, you have to make sure that you conduct yourself correctly, because you’re representing your family and your academy. So again, all those things can only help the boys socially, mentally, to be a better person because they all know that they’re not going to be footballers, a lot of them, but with the environment they’re in and the process they go through they can achieve the highest level possible.
Paul Lever – Academy Assistant Director (Liverpool)

“We in the academy structure are not just about producing players. We want to produce good human beings as well. And out of these young boys that are playing today, it will not only be footballers of the future, but coaches of the future. And it doesn’t always mean to be successful that you work at the highest level. There are many contributions that you can make to sport and development in many different roles throughout the world.
Jim Cassell – Academy Director (Manchester City)


Goal of the initiative is to have 25% of the participants turn pro by the age of 18.

At what age are the two lessons referenced valid?

As for life not being fair, as soon as the child is old enough to understand what the meaning of fair is, and says for the first time, "that's not fair".

As for tomorrow being another day, the first time the child has a day that both the child and parents wished hadn't happened.

Children develop at different rates, so there is no set age. For some, it can be very early, for others, it's later. In my opinion, regardless of when it happens, the parents need to both set the example, and help the child learn, and assist them in moving through this potentially painful process.

I guess I'm thinking differently. I'm pretty sure that being able to positively spin a negative should NOT be considered on par with an event that betters you as a person.

How does being slapped in the face with "life's not fair" make you a better person? That's a coping response, not an improvement event.

Taking your child with you on a monthly basis to a Rescue Mission to serve lunch to the homeless....can make them a better person. A friend of mine went on a mission trip to Africa this past summer where they used soccer as tool to reach kids....and took along his son.

How you compare those scenarios, with getting a bad hand at a tryout or being treated unfairly by a coach or a teacher or whatever.....are different. At least to me.

For adults, there are GREAT lessons to be learned thru adversity. But I think they are adult lessons....and even then, personally I don't want too many of them. There are only so many learning opportunities I can handle!!!!

I would say the age these two lessons become valid will differ from child to child depending on the maturity level. The "life's not fair" lesson is kind of tricky. It is one of those things we hear it all our life and we realize is the truth, but it is used normally as a coping response.

It is just another way of saying things can't always go your way - accept it - live with it - move on. Hopefully learn something from it. So to that degree it can an improvement element.

I think in this day of instant gratification way too many people don't accept either of these two lessons. Nobody likes them or wants to deal with them - but are inevitbale.

What a great thread!

My hope is that I can rear my children such that they see every negative event as an improvement event and never just as a coping event. And not just in adulthood, but in childhood as well.

When coaches and parents emphasize playing their best, never giving up, learning new skills, and having fun over scoring more points, youth begin to develop positive values about winning and losing. By seeing adult role models encourage team members to do their best and support each other and accepting each player's abilities and limitations, teens learn respect for others, and that respect can go with that teen into adulthood.

Responsibility for your actions and respect for others doesn't have to wait until the teen years to learn. Often times, by the teen years, it's very late in the process. Some might say too late, but, I'll settle for very late.