SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Boys Varsity Soccer You make the Call

So it's time to play "You make the Call"
You're a ref and you see the following play.
You make the Call!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CAXgh1NdRJE

This is in 1/2 speed and sorry about the low resolution.

Watched it about a dozen times...from the camera angle, it looks like the keeper comes in, misses the ball, and kicks up into the attacker's shin after the ball is away.

Missing the ball and kicking the player is a foul, no matter who you are...and from the upward angle of the kick it might be seen as intentional. I'd support the card on that one.

On further review, more ankle than shin...but the verdict stands.

A terrible call to be certain! No way a card and the keeper had every right to the ball in that situation. The ball had been shot upon the GK approach. Nothing more a keeper can do in that situation. Keeper has every right to protect himself on the dive as well.

BAD CALL!!!

Let's vote:

Is the Center Official correct in issuing a card to the goalkeeper and a penalty kick in this instance? single choice
	Yes
	No
Votes accepted starting: 03/30/08 10:10 PM You must vote before you can view the results of this poll.

I missed the PC for the first time in ages. I wanted to make it out Saturday but weather didn't permit it. All the press I heard and read means it must have been a good event once again.

No way is that a penalty. I don't even know what teams are playing, but that is a textbook defense by a goalkeeper. What else is he/she supposed to do in that situation? He doesn't lead with the feet (no 2-footers) and his hands are in the proper position. 99% of the time this call "protects" the goalkeeper for obvious reasons. Doesn't look like anything malicious to me.

My question: Did the keeper get called for the foul or not? If so, did he receive a card? Had to be a penalty, right? Was the PK good? What was the final and who was playing?

Maybe not intentional, but the kick with the leg was made after the ball was away...stop motion shows the ball past the keeper's head when the leg swing starts. Going for the ankle, or just bad timing? Can't say. Any other actions by the keeper previously that would cause the officials to look a little harder at throwing a card? No way to know.

Is it a foul? The keeper completely missed the ball and kicked the player instead. Intentional or not, yes. Watched it happen a thousand times on all parts of the field; it gets called.

I tried the old "She was GOING for the ball--she just missed the timing!" argument more than once for my players who got ankle rather than ball...never knew it to talk a ref out of a call yet.

Maybe a yellow, maybe not, depending on surrounding circumstances...but still looks like a foul in the box to me, accidental or not.

Had he gotten even a tiny piece of the ball, now, I'd say play on.

Brookland-Cayce vs Kempsville Virginia
Yellow Card, keeper had to leave for the PK.
BC doesn't have a back up keeper, but the fill-in keeper almost stopped it (similiar situation with A.C. Flora, but that time the fill-in keeper did stop it)
Kempsville got the shot, however BC won 2-1

The keeper stick his right leg up in what looks like an attempt to trip the opposing player. It doesn't look like he was trying to protect himself. Looks like he was trying to trip/hurt the other player. Good call by the official.

Just my opinion.

Good thing we have video! The keeper came in via textbook style with hands leading. The official made the call from midfield (literally)! He simply witnessed the shot-miss and subsequent keeper/forward collision which was the afterthought.

Is there any type of peer review or evaluation for the high school officials? Could this guy end up doing a playoff match or state final?

I SHUDDER!

Since there seems to be disagreemnet as to the proper call when we can all watch it in slow motion, how could you expect to sanction a ref no matter what call he made?

No way that's a penalty, let alone a card. The forward tries to go over goalie and he has his leg up like their told to cover as much area as possible. Why is goalie wearing shirt same color as other team?

Quote:

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Since there seems to be disagreemnet as to the proper call when we can all watch it in slow motion, how could you expect to sanction a ref no matter what call he made?

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This is pretty much why I posted.
If we can't decide (and we see it in slow-motion), then how can a ref from mid-field make a call that is going to result in a PK?

BTW Here is the video at regular speed
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A4X6_aEWUE

Notice the whistle and then how long it takes the ref to show up in the frame.
The call may be controversial, ergo in my opinion, should never had been called in the box.

True enough...hate to see a game potentially decided by a controversial call from a bad position. That is one of those situations where the official's call could win or lose the game for a team, and should only be made if he can be sure.

Wish the linesman hadn't gone out of the frame right before the hit; I was hoping to see if he reacted.

The play looks far worse at full speed. However, I do think that the attacking player had already kicked the ball when the keeper did/did not take him out.

normally, you give a PK if the goalie fouls the player and stops him from a scoring opportunity, but here the ball is way over goal and the contact comes after that. It's hard for somebody, once they have gone down, with the intent to stop the ball, to just stop.

no foul.. the forward already missed the goal and its kinda of hard to stop yourself while going into a tackle...

All personal biases aside (no goalkeeper really WANTS to be carded on a charge like that) I still have to go with no foul on that one. The second the goalkeeper commits to diving, he loses a certain amount of control over how his momentum takes him. Goalkeepers (whether trained by professionals or just their ol' high school coach) are taught to cover as much area as possible...on dives, that means one leg should be literally in the air (maybe not quite as high as this guy's, but I'm not critiquing form here). His whole body's momentum was going in the direction of the oncoming forward...collisions like that happen. It was unfortunate that the forward ate a little soil, sure, but not a foul.

No card, no foul. Play on.

Every program should be REQUIRED to film their games (it is not difficult) for this exact reason - and more!

The fact that we can review this scenario rather than just reading faceless accounts is an encouraging development in the game. With the accessibility of image/video hosting sites like youtube and google video I hope this is just the beginning.

I wasn't there as I was in California, don't know which two teams or the ref's involved. But a question to those present. After the ball was kicked did the keeper's hands touch the kicker's feet? Or did the kicker fake the dive? The video seams to support the first, but it's a distant video. The US team was awarded a free penalty in the U-23 Olympic qualifying tournament in an identical situation...

i have not looked at the video yet – this is in response to a few comments i've seen here.

i agree that once you start into a slide tackle, it's kinda hard to stop yourself – simple physics - but to say that a player should not be called for a foul because they couldn't stop themselves? can you people actually be serious?

i can see it now . . .

player: ref, i know I broke that guy's leg, but, but, uh, when I started into the slide tackle, i just KNEW it was gonna be a clean tackle, but then, uh, he touched the ball at the last second, and, uh, he had already shot and WAY missed the goal, and, uh, I was already WAY into my slide, uh, and I just couldn't stop. i didn't mean to do it – it was an accident, you know, bad timing.

ref: oh, ha ha. my bad. i thought it was just a vicious tackle. sorry. well, in that case, no card, no foul. somebody get this screaming kid off my pitch. play on!

After further review ... It's not a penalty!

Why was the AR not questioned about the call because he had the better view and didn't attempt to raise his flag???

Jackson, Samuel L. YOU WOULD SAY THAT!!!!!!

I saw the tape and the game. Here's my conclusion:

That's about right for Marion Shull!

Is ANYONE who has made a comment a referee (High School, NISOA, USSF)??? or at least attended a referee training course in the last 3 years??? REPLAYS??? SLOW MOTIONN???

Yes, I asked a question for those present...no one bothered to directly answer. And yes Soccer is not a sport in which we use REPLAYS, we leave that for the other sports.

you have to card the keeper, while he was coming out to make himself as big as possible, he did take out the man and the leg was raised pretty high on the kid

No replays allowed and decision rendered within seconds..Not a call I would want to make

Its clearly a foul on the Keep, based on the video. Shot is taken, ball not touched by keep, but he wipes out the kicker. Not many refs can slow down their vision to slow motion to see precisely what occurred, so its a judgement call on what was seen in real time.

It is clearly a foul on the keep. He committed to the slide and getting big as he could, take the consequences or stay or your feet. Keeper should get called just like everyone else, miss the ball, get the call.

Precisely.

OK, I watched the clip, and did not read any post after that. I am going to answer this post without reading anyone elses response. All that I can say is that I went to referee training the other day in Chicago and had Herb Silva, an MLS assessor and scheduler for MLS referees, do about five hours of training on specific fouls, and the repercussions of these fouls. One such foul was exactly like the one shown in that clip. It has been brought to the attention to the referees that do games at the premier league level and Academy level games that certain fouls have to be dealt with in a more severe way than we have been used to dealing with them in the past. This foul, as discussed for about 15 minutes, is a red card send off offense. This is coming from the MLS level. They want players that foul like this to have this behavior limited by the time they make it to the professional level. They do not want the $25,000 a year player taking out a $500,000 a year player because they have been allowed to before. Another intersting statement that I heard this last weekend is that the foul you don't do anything about, or not enough about on your field, you are saying is OK to continue to do on your field when you are officiating. I would have to say that I would not want this keeper to do this on my field, and I would send him off in an instant. Now you may ask why...what has the player done that would warrant his send off?

1) He comes in cleats blazing. His cleats are up=intent to hurt.

2) Reckless playing or lack of skill does not excuse a player for a foul as such.

3) There are mandates coming from the top referees and leagues in the United States to prevent these fouls from being the norm in a game. They are not to be tolerated. We will fail an assessment if a foul like this is not given a straight red.

This is about as simple as the calls get. Toss him, team down to 10 for a stupid player leading with cleats displayed looking like he has the intent to hurt the opposing player.

Now I will go back and read the other comments, and I may comment again soon.....

Cola fan...just want to comment on your leading with two feet comment. As was stated this weekend by Herb Silva, it only takes one straight leg to be dangerous. They are not to be tolerated. No straight legs coming in with the intent to injur are to be allowed. Again, straight red card offense.

Whatever happened to protecting the keeper? If he's leading with the hands to ball and the player shanks the shot - as is the case here - the keeper has a right to protect his midsection doesn't he?

It's the mindset of "sending folks off" for crap like this that gives the officials a bad rap. They are guilty before the call is even made.

However, the slap down handball is allowed time and again with a simple play on. Sad commentary on today's officiating!

Samuel L Jackson. As a referee, it depends on your pregame conference as to what the center referee wants. He/She can actually say that everything in the box is theirs, and he doesn't want you to do anything as the AR unless he looks to you to see if the penalty was in the box or not. Simple fact that if you reffed, you might know the proceedure.

Bam Bam, why don't you email Herb Silva with your concerns...PM me and I can give you his personal email address.....

this is not the MSL, this is high school soccer.

I am stating what the upper referees want to have called at lower levels. I always hate the statement..."its not the English Premier League"...or is your case...."this is not the MLS"...but yet when it comes to game changing calls, you want the referee that can referee at the English Premier League level. Yet if that referee were to make the correct call, you would call him an idiot and would disregard his credentials. You only want things called that you think are the right ones, and that only affect your team in a positive manner. You talk out of both sides of your mouth...and it is annoying. I will go back to the old addage, go get your referee license, and I want to hear what you have to say in a year.

I' ve been a referee for 25 years and have my license. I was just trying to point out that you cannot call a High school game like a MSL game. How was I talking out both sides of my mouth? Moron!!!

Soccerboy you must be one of those officials who thinks they're the show. May I point you to the other thread for your viewing pleasure.

Ah, but I must protest. I do not think I am the show. In fact I am one of those that does not draw attention to myself. I show up at least 30 minutes before the game, do the proper walk down of the field to make sure everything is safe for the kids. I then chat with the coaches, get stretched out, have my chat with my fellow officials, and then go out and do my thing. I know not all of my calls are going to make everyone happy, but that is because its a game played with emotion. I hardly ever hand out red cards, unless it is in an adult league...and when I am done, I pack my things up and go. Simple as that. I don't like to draw attention to me when I am on the field, the people are not there to watch the referee, they are there to watch the players. I am there to keep them safe.

It is hard to take you seriously when u have such a dumb picture and name soccerboy...but i dont agree or disagree with anything that u have said, u just sound like an idiot...thanx



conform or perish

Soccerboy, Give yourself a big pat on the back for doing your job.

Did my best to watch once full speed, watched it twice. Foul no doubt, hands or feet no matter contact was made. If the alibi is keeper protecting self, consider the following. The forward motion the keeper uses is an attacking not defensive posture. It's a gamble worth taking but the keeper lost this one.
A card? Last defender, scoring chance, it will be a Pk, all these add to a cautionable offense. Yellow.

Coach Tim, if you go with the last defender argument, and it is denying a goal scoring opportunity, you have no choice but to give the red per the rules....

Cleats Blazing, where do you see that. That's almost impossible if you are going in hands first.

OK, I have the hi-def video and here is what actually happened.

Right before the initial contact, the Keeper has both of his knees bent (cleats are actually pointing away from the forward). The Forward strikes the ball and then his right foot actually catches the underneath the Keepers right foot (the Keepers right knee is still bent and his cleats are still pointing backwards). Because of the Forward's foot catching the Keepers foot, this forces the Keepers leg to be extended, (giving the impression that the Keeper extending his leg to trip the Forward)

So put your Red Cards and your Yellow Cards away, and don't call a foul in the box from midfield unless you’re pretty darn sure.

"He not only takes pictures, he takes video"

How does the forward's foot catching the keeper's foot "force" his leg to be extended? Pressure from the forward's foot in that direction would be toward bending the knee, not extending the leg...or so it would seem from the video posted. Also, as to "going in hands first"...the keeper may have started his run with his hands extended, but he appears to have his feet ahead of his hands by the time he contacts the attacker.

I'm not an official; I've never taken the classes. I'm in no way an expert. My only point of reference is from observing over the years what (fairly) consistently gets called on the field. Don't think I'd go with the "last defender/scoring opportunity" scenario for a straight red, since the ball was already away on a missed shot when the contact was made. The scoring opportunity was already blown. Not even sure I'd go with the yellow since it may have been unintentional contact just from going out hard for the ball, unless there had been previous incidents and the card was issued for persistent infringement. I would go with calling a foul, because missing ball and hitting player, whether it is intentional or accidental, is still a foul. It happened, regardless of intent. An official cannot always accurately assess the intent of a player; he can only call based on the result of the player's actions. PK is justifiable.

It's interesting to see the criteria people use to argue with a controversial call. If they disagree with what the official thought was reasonable for the situation, they cite the immutable letter of the rulebook. If they disagree with the consequences laid out in the rulebook, they cry for "reasonable interpretation."

Coach Chass
I was surprised my self on the extension, but being a physics kind of guy it tried a little experiment.

Take your right hand with your fist closed (thumb down) except for your index finger a little bit extended but still bent back (this represents the keepers leg). With your left hand (the forward) extend your index finger similar to the forward's foot/leg. With the tip of left index finger, catch the tip of your right index finger. Moving your hands at the approximate angle that the players are moving, and yup, you get and extension.

My vote stands, no yellow and, of course no red, and the ref should not call a foul in the box from midfield unless he is sure.

I agree wholeheartedly with the "unless he is sure" part...that's an awfully big role to play in the decison of a game without having a good angle to make the call.

philly, you say you've been a ref for 25 years, yet you make the comment "it's hard for somebody, once they have gone down, with the intent to stop the ball, to just stop," as if that's an excuse for fouling someone (see my post above). and then, you pretty quickly call soccerboy a moron (anger management issues, maybe?). i can only hope that after 25 years of officiating, you have officially retired.

Belligerent, if you read soocerboy's earlier post, where he calls me a moron, I was just returning the favor. I plan on officiating for 25 more years, God willing. I love officiating soccer and take pride in my ability to do it. I was not making a excuse for the goalie, I was just sayibg that it is tough to stop once he makes the decision to go down.

If I didn't believe in total protection for all keepers worldwide, and if my son had not been a keeper, then I would say "Card!" but.........can't agree.

philly, i'm still not sure what your point was with the comment about it being tough for the keeper to stop. it still sounds like you're inferring that it should not be a foul because he had already started his slide. whether or not it's difficult for him to stop his slide, once he has started, is irrelevant, so why mention it?

about the "moron" comment, i guess i just expect a little more from someone who says that he (or she) has been a referee for 25 years.

i have this picture in my mind:

coach: ref, you suck !!!
ref: coach, YOU suck !!!
coach: you suck MORE !!!
ref: no, YOU do !!!
AR: asphinctersayswhat?

ref & coach together: ???