SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums SCHSSCA N-S Game and "play club and not play high school"

Dexter: Regarding "qualified", in my experience, there are an awfully large number of club coaches that aren't qualified. I think that rather than cast this as "club versus high school", you might want to request some type of minimum certification. Then again, at smaller clubs and high schools, that might mean kids aren't playing that want to play -- so it's pretty tough [analogy: see any minimum wage debate: better jobs versus fewer jobs.]

I think my point is made with your statement Kyle

thanks

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Originally posted by Kyle Heise:
Dexter, I'm not sure I follow your line of questioning:

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"do you think that a successful club coach or any successful coach for that matter would be content to be an assistant for a high school coach?"

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Do you not believe that the top high school programs have outstanding staffs, not just a head coach? When I think of the top 5-10 teams in each class, there are only a handful (at most) that don't incorporate club coaches with high school coaches. Many do both.

That's why I have never understood the "looking down your nose" at high school soccer from the club perspective. I think it is very evident that what many consider the "top club from a national or regional perspective" in South Carolina, Carolina Elite Soccer Academy, has joined alliance with the S.C. High School Soccer Coaches Association to continue the North-South Soccer Classic.

Both play an integral part of youth soccer in the state and in my opinion can co-exist equally and help all parties involved!

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OK Kyle, here is a start.There has been discussion that all coaches have to be licenced.Other states are doing this and SCYSA has been loooking at this for years.Examples would be a D license for U11-U13. C license for 14-15, B license for older teams or NSCAA equivalents. Chico, I do agree that all club coaches are not qualified and think that SCYSA realizes this as well. Also, though it is not a quantitative measure, most successful coaches, in any sport, have played the game at some level, most collegietly. I know that there are exceptions and that you don't have to play to coach, but the fact is that most of the successful coaches have played at the collegeite or professional level.

I am pretty sure that Warren Turner and Ed Khouri do not teach at their schools. Since they don't teach there, should they be an assistant for someone? I know what you're saying about football and baseball but many AD's realize that there are not qualified soccer coaches at their schools which is why they hire coaches from the outside.

If you think that high schools are properly staffed, that is great for you. I was not trying to run high school down. I for one however do believe that there are many examples of high school coaches that are not qualified by using the model I stated above. I also know that there are many club coaches that are not qualified. But I do think that SCYSA is looking to address this with licensing. Let me ask you, is this something that has ever been discussed by the SC soccer coaches association. Again, this is not a loaded question- I just don't know. Also, what are your thoughts on something like that.

Dex,

Any yahoo can get a "badge" or what not simply by paying for it? Just b/c you have licsense doesn't make you a better coach than one with out it.

There is an older gentleman that works at GHS w/ Warren and Hal Russel is BE's rep.

Anyone can coach a "team" but it is a real COACH to run a PROGRAM as Kyle stated.

I don't think "licenses" mean a whole lot in the first place. If you pay to attend the class, there is a 99.9% chance that you will pass that course.

My father, who played football and basketball in high school in the mid-1960s felt he needed some sort of "understanding of soccer" back in the late 1970s when my brother, friends, and I were all playing. He received a "D License", but did that make him a better coach? No. Did it give him a better understanding of the game, which he was unfamiliar with? Yes.

I know collegiate, high school, and club coaches that have "B" and "A" licenses and that does not equate to more wins on the pitch or even better training from these coaches. What it does mean is that those people have taken advantage of a professional development criteria in their chosen career (whether it be full-time or part-time).

Also, to be a good "coach" does not require someone to have ever played the game, though I am in total agreement that it certainly helps! However, those exceptions to the rule could include current Notre Dame football coach Charlie Weiss, who finished graduate school at the University of South Carolina and never played above the high school level. Or how about New England Patriots head coach Bill Belichick (Wesleyan College) and Houston Rockets head coach Jeff Van Gundy? Both grew up around their particular games by following their fathers around, who coached in those leagues, but never played above the collegiate level (Van Gundy at Division II Nazareth College in Rochester, NY). Jeff's brother, Stan, is the head coach of the Miami Heat and played college ball at SUNY-Brockport.

Are you saying that because these coaches have never played "professionally" that they aren't qualified to coach in the pros? Is that the same argument for being able to coach high school or club? Anyway, good discussion and I hope others weigh in on the conversation!

Kyle,
Thanks for enumerating the coaches that did not play in college. I think that if you reread my post you will see that I too say that there are exceptions, but they are just that- exceptions and not the rule.

I agree with you about the licensing process. If you go to the D or NSCAA state diploma you will pass, but you are absolutely wrong if you think that is true with the C and above. The 99.99 percent is an absolute exaggeratioin for C, B, and A. At the C level, many candidiates are not passed and many are 3.2 meaning they have to wait before going on.

What are we left with then if licensing is out the window. We can look at all the requirements in society and make the same arguments. Do you have to have a college degree to get some jobs. If you pay to go to a D license, try your best and work hard you will pass. If you go to college, try your best and work hard you will pass, yet you have paid for both, but these requirements are still in place. Do you have to have any requirements to be a soccer coach in South Carolina? Or is just wanting to be one good enough? I've given my thoughts, what are yours?

You're right Shearer,
the guy who changes the lights in the stadium is the star of the program and his name should be at the top of the program, followed by the concession workers, athletic secretary, and ball boys. How come you don't know the name of the guy who helps Warren?

Dexter, how about this -- what are the requirements to be a high school football, baseball, or basketball coach in South Carolina? How about a band director, chorus conductor, or drama director? Do these people need licenses? Are there licenses available in football, baseball, or basketball?

To answer for 'Shearer', Marion "Buster" Beacham is the coach at Greenville HS along with Warren Turner. Both contribute equally in their own ways.

Also, is there a particular high school that you have in mind? Or how about a club? Or is this just an informative way to collect information? Just wondering!

Kyle,
I know who the assistant at Greenville is. That was a rhetorical question to prove a point.

You are right about the other sports, which I knew would be brought up. I think the difference there is that with the big three Americans have grown up with those sports and are more familiar with them. I think that with soccer there is still a lot of unfamiliarity which is where some sort of requirements serve a purpose.

Are there licences for those sports- not that I know of, but again I think that those coaches have played the game. If you are asking me which is more important I would say palying experience counts the most.

Anyway, this is not about coaches for me it is about players. I know that you are trying to protect that which you value the most, which is cool, but I'm not trying to attack high school soccer. I want soccer to be better for the players and if that means putting some qualifications on coaches, whatever that may be, I'm all for it. That is my only motive here.I'm not defending or attacking anyone.

Chico,

It appears your intended discussion got a little sidetracked. Thought I would offer my opinion on your questions about my earlier post.

>>[Chico] So if they don't understand high school, isn't it probable that they [a] never will and/or [b] don't want to? So then given this reasoning what would be the motivation for this N-S game thing?<<

I think that it is good marketing to sponsor a game that has a large number of participants from your club. Especially when it is your desire to attract more and more of the very best players from around the state to your club. You want to play in the all-star game...come join the club, and we'll get you there. Not that it is implicit in this particular effort. However if one of the potential "customers" wants to draw that conclusion - good assumptive marketing! Which brings me to the "small" realization...

>>[Chico] Wouldn't a "small realization" be something you might put on a web site or send an e-mail about rather than committing a long-term financial relationship to support? In other words, when I have "small realizations", I typically do something relatively "small" about them; it's the "large realizations" that cause me to do relatively "large" things.<<

(It should be noted that I originally posted this as just a "realization", and then went back and edited it to be "small realization".) On a personal basis I agree with you. However, from a corporate stand point I see this as good marketing - just like it was for Home Depot. At least that's the way I read the press release. Since CESA is not nearly the size of Home Depot I'll concede back to just a realization.

>>[Chico] This N-S thing seems to be a multi-year large commitment; would it really have been made only as a result of some "small realization" about something that they've been exposed to for decades? Alternatively, could it be that this is either a "large realization" or simply a continued philosophy and if so, in your opinion, which one?<<

To me a "large realization" by CESA of how important high school soccer is to the players would be something along the order of not having any club related activities during the 16 weeks of the high school season. I am not necessarily advocating this action, just that it would be an example to me of a "large realization" on CESA's part. As a "large realization" of the importance to players in their sports of the high school experience, AAU baseball and basketball organizations don't have any activities during their respective high school seasons. Which brings me to my opinion on another of your questions...

>>[Chico] ...this comes back to an "either/or" mentality; either you do one or you do another but you don't do both. When I was growing up, I didn't see that mentality; I played and lettered in football, basketball, track, and tennis and I never had a coach tell me to stop doing one so that I could do another even though there was not just end-of-season overlap but within-the-season overalap. I did miss games/meets [note: there were times I didn't start or play in something and sat the bench because I missed a practice/game/meet, so there wasn't a free lunch here -- but there also wasn't much drama either -- it was just part of being a teenage athlete.] Are things really so different today?<<

In my opinion things ARE different today. Like you, I played multiple sports in high school with all of the conflicting schedules that you mentioned. (I am assuming since you lettered in all of these endeavors, that they were all played in association with your high school.) The difference in "our day" was that all of the coaches ultimately worked for the same person (Athletic Director, Principal, Superintendent). Where I grew up the only "outside the school" sports opportunities were in the summer. There were no club teams, AAU (in it's infancy) and Little League baseball, restricted themselves to summer activities. Also in "our day" it was very rare (in fact, I can't recall a single case) to see a good athlete restrict themself to one sport, and then play it year around. Using my daughter as an example, she has played as many as three varsity sports in a given year in high school (down to just two now) along with the club/AAU involvement. During her participation she has never missed a high school sports practice or game due to a conflict with a sport outside of high school. This is purely her decision. Interestingly, the only coaches that have ever tried to "convince" her to play just one sport have been outside of the high school.

Just my thoughts!