SC Soccer Forums SCSoccer.com Forums Club Soccer & ODP Development Versus Winning/Losing

Chico,
Question. At what point should we be more concerned with development rather than winning. Last year we were on a team that won all the time but the coach did not do very much to develop the players as either individuals or a team. He allowed the more assertive players (who, as it turns out, had been playing together since u5. They are now u11) to dominate every conceivable situation in games. They took every penalty, every corner, every free kick. We are talking about 4 players on a developmental team of 18. They also played in the center of the field so they even controlled the flow of the game. Unfortunately, they are not the type of player to get everyone involved. As center mids they were often out of position and did not distribute the ball. They used their physical strength and speed to just power past people. It got to the point were a few of the "others" did not enjoy going to practice or playing. A few of these players have a ball with them were ever they go, they would even stay for 30 minutes after practice to shoot and play world cup, yet they didn't want to practice with this coach or team.

This season, 3 players from that team were, for lack of better description, demoted to the pool 2 team. Two of those players have much better skill than many of the pool 1 players but they were also the smallest players on the team. This year, we find the coach to be much better even though he is just out of college. He has the team playing well and working together. He also has not pigeon-holed them into position like the coach did last year. We didn't win many games at the beginning of the year. We were actually 1 win 1 tie and 10 loses during the first month of the season. However, we worked the ball much better than last years team ever did, even by the end of the season. Why did we lose so many? 1. we went to a tournament after 2 practices. A tournament that we didn't go to last year because the coach said we were not ready. 2. We are much smaller than the other teams we played. I insist that you could take 4 or 5 of our players and switch them with the pool one team and both teams would get the same results. This season, everyone loves to come to practice. They laugh and have a good time and along well together. Ususally 8 out of the ten players stay after to play and it is all we can do to get them to leave.

So once again, at what point is development REALLY more important than winning?

>>[kdlsc] Question. At what point should we be more concerned with development rather than winning.<<

So you're asking on a sliding scale, from 0-100, when we should get to a 51 or more on development.

As we'll discuss below, the real issue here is whether you're talking about the development of the best child on the team, the worst child on the team, the average child on the team, the team itself, etc.

I think that the parent and player have to take some responsibility for understanding their own needs and desires. What need does the player have the most: playing with better players, being trained by better trainers, being coached by better coaches, etc? For every child, at every age, there's a unique answer.

>>Last year we were on a team that won all the time but the coach did not do very much to develop the players as either individuals or a team. He allowed the more assertive players (who, as it turns out, had been playing together since u5. They are now u11) to dominate every conceivable situation in games. They took every penalty, every corner, every free kick. We are talking about 4 players on a developmental team of 18.<<

Several things spring to mind. First, I wonder if the "more assertive players" and their parents feel that the coach didn't do much to develop them? Did they all leave the team?

If I'm the parent of one of the "more assertive players", I want the best players around my child at training and games to help my child become a better player.

If I'm the parent of one of the "less assertive players", I want the coach to "dumb down" the best players to help my child. Heck -- we all know as parents -- we don't really care that much about the team -- we just want what's best for our child.

Are you beginning to see what might be considered a conundrum for the coach?

>>They also played in the center of the field so they even controlled the flow of the game. Unfortunately, they are not the type of player to get everyone involved. As center mids they were often out of position and did not distribute the ball. They used their physical strength and speed to just power past people. It got to the point were a few of the "others" did not enjoy going to practice or playing. A few of these players have a ball with them were ever they go, they would even stay for 30 minutes after practice to shoot and play world cup, yet they didn't want to practice with this coach or team.<<

When my kid was 13, she got a chance to play in a scrimmage with one of the best U18 teams in Region III. I thought she looked good; technically, she was the equal of some of the lesser players and she was as quick as anyone.

Unfortunately, at 4'10" and 92 pounds, she tended to get pushed around a lot.

Now, she really wanted to play on that U18G team so we let her try out for it later. She wasn't selected. I remember being angry because it was clear her technical skills were so much better than the younger team on which she was selected. Eventually, I had to help her reconcile to the fact that she was going to have to get much more aggressive, much stronger, and have technical skills not just better but far better than the other girls to overcome the size differential.

>>This season, 3 players from that team were, for lack of better description, demoted to the pool 2 team. Two of those players have much better skill than many of the pool 1 players but they were also the smallest players on the team. This year, we find the coach to be much better even though he is just out of college. He has the team playing well and working together. He also has not pigeon-holed them into position like the coach did last year. We didn't win many games at the beginning of the year. We were actually 1 win 1 tie and 10 loses during the first month of the season. However, we worked the ball much better than last years team ever did, even by the end of the season. Why did we lose so many? 1. we went to a tournament after 2 practices. A tournament that we didn't go to last year because the coach said we were not ready. 2. We are much smaller than the other teams we played. I insist that you could take 4 or 5 of our players and switch them with the pool one team and both teams would get the same results. This season, everyone loves to come to practice. They laugh and have a good time and along well together. Ususally 8 out of the ten players stay after to play and it is all we can do to get them to leave.

So once again, at what point is development REALLY more important than winning?<<

Development is always more important than winning. The real question you're asking is "at what point is the weakest player on a team's development more important than the development of the rest of the team?" I don't have an answer to that -- because by its very nature it's a case-by-case kind of thing.

By the way -- it sounds like whoever put these kids into the other pool did them a big favor -- regardless of the ego bruising that occurred during the way.

First of all, you are correct, those that moved down to pool two are much better off. The pool one coach has spoken to my son more times this fall than he did all of last year. As for pool 1, no parent is going to move their child off that team. No parent from that team has any experience with soccer. They agree that the coach does not necessarily work well with younger players, but all they care about is winning. Because of their lack of experience with the game, they hardly know better than to question development. Add to that the fact that the coach intimidates the players, the parents and other coaches. The coach in question did not develop any players on the team. No one was a better player than when the season started. So there was no dumbing down for weaker players. As a coach, I made sure during the devlopment ages everyone got experience various things in a game. When the pool one teams played each other in the finals of a tournament last year, the coach let the players decide where to play. The assertive players made the decisions, when the others didn't agree they just got pushed around. If my son and a few others had not done what was for the best of the team, we would have been playing with 4 strikers and 4 center mids. In the coaches mind this may be a "learning" situation, but I can't say I agree.

I believe that I've seen some of the scenarios discussed at one time or another. Some teams are just hierachical. That's the way the are, and most everyone gets used to it or leaves. It may be good or bad depending on your perspective, but they won't change. There are parents that seek out these teams, and there are children that thrive on them. The ones that don't leave. I don't think it necessarily has to do with talent, as much as priorities and expectations. Over time, I've come to realize that it's useless to try to change this kind of team. No one will be happy.

Chico seems to be saying that you should insist on accountability, and winning is a form of accountability. If winning is not your measurement, then what is? In the younger age groups, the English soccer federation had come up with a testing system to measure technical skills in young players on such things as speed and accuracy in passing, shooting, dribbling etc. I don't know how widely it is used, or how valid it is, never having tried it myself.

In many cases, especially with younger players, it's not hard for a parent to answer the question "Is my child noticeably better at the end of the season than at the beginning". The honest question for some kids on some "winning teams" might be "no". That child might be better served by a team that wins half its games, instead of the undefeated team. Of course, I believe that you could have a great team that wins a lot and does a good job with player development. It's a much tougher call to decide with a team that loses all of the time because of player development.

My daughter was on a challenge team that played in RIII league and lost every game. Some games were close but and the end of the season no wins. As far as improvement she did improve as a player. The toll from losing all the games was several players did not attend tryouts the following year. Most were not happy with the results of the games and the required travel. As a parent is hard to watch your kids endure the loses and try to encourage them to keep trying each game. Which is best team devolvement or wins? The ideal situation would be to work on development early in the season with the hope wins will come at the end during the state cup.

LeGrazie and fan. I agree.

The thing is, while games are zero-sum games, development is not. For example, if I start running cross country and in my first race I run a 24 minute 5k and in the last race I run a 19 minute 5K, have I not developed and improved? Sure I have but I still lose. Not going to win anything with those times. Or how about this. As a Junior, I am the State champ in cross country with a winning time of 16:07. As a Senior I run the same course for the State Championship and I do it in 15:27 but I lose the race and finish second. I'm still a loser (so to speak) but I have improved.

Hope this helps - what I've been taught!!

Phase 1 - The FUNdamental Phase
Age: Males 6 to 9 / Females 6 to 8 years
The main objective of this phase is to learn all the fundamental movement skills using a well-structured, positive and fun approach. Soccer skills should be introduced, with an emphasis on fun, skill development and small sided games. Appropriate and correct running, jumping and throwing techniques are taught using the ABC's of athletics. Participation in as many sports as possible is encouraged. The development of these fundamental movement skills will contribute significantly to future at achievements.

Phase 2 - The Learning to Train Phase
Age: Males 9 to 12 / Females 8 to 11 years
The main objective of this phase is to learn the specific soccer skills in conjunction with FUNdamental skills from a range of other sports. These skills form the cornerstone of all player development. An emphasis on technical development should be a key part of this phase, with the 7 v 7 game being introduced, progressing to 9 v 9.

Phase 3 - The Training to Train Phase
Age: Males 12 to 16 / Females 11 to 15 Years
The main objective of this phase is to consolidate basic soccer skills, introduce the basic elements of tactics and to address the two critical periods of physical development namely the aerobic base and strength of players. It should be noted that both aerobic and strength trainability is dependent on maturation levels and not solely chronological age.

Phase 4 - The Training to Compete Phase
Age: Males 16 to 18 / Females 15 to 17 years
The main objective of this phase is to optimise fitness preparation and soccer, individual and position-specific skills as well as performance. More advanced tactical elements of the game are introduced. During this phase, high intensity individual, and position-specific training is provided to players. Soccer specific skills are performed under a variety of competitive conditions during training. Special emphasis is placed on optimum preparation by modelling training and competition.

Phase 5 - The Training to Win Phase
Age: Males 18yrs and older / Females 17 yrs and older
This final phase of player preparation aims to maximise fitness preparation and soccer, individual and position-specific skills as well as performance. All of the player's capacities are now fully established and players are trained to peak for major competitions. Training is characterised by high intensity and relatively high volume with frequent periods of rest.

Phase 6 - The Retainment Phase
This phase refers to the activities performed after a player has retired from competition permanently. The aim of this phase is to retain players for coaching, sport administration, officiating or recreational participation in the game. For semi professional and professional players this phase will include career planning and transition

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